Forums > Social Chat > Hmmmm...obesity and Culture...a rant
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the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
So...I noticed a very strange thing, for me, at least today.
I can only speak from the American Culture perspective here...
PWB and I were in a restaraunt today and this family was seated at a booth near us. They were obese, to the point where I felt bad for them. One of them mentioned that the fit behind the table was way too tight.
Now, I know that for many genetics and diet have alot to do with obesity but I think our culture does not help.
Here we go...as I was sitting in the restaraunt noticing these people I also took notice of the copious amounts of food on our plates, but growing up we are taught to eat all our food because children are starving elsewhere in the world. Not only that but we have this society so hell bent on diet plans that people actually end up gaining more weight on them than losing, but they spend the money so in the corporate sense all is right in the world. Then we flaunt waif thin models and idols, making the people we first create feel bad about who they have become.
Then the things in our world are created for the less than average sized people. The average size for women in America today is a 14 (which is what Marilyn Monroe averaged, between 12 and 14, just for mental reference). Yet in the mall, most of the stores catered to the *really* petite women. Fashion does. The chairs, booths, transit seating, restroom stalls, cars..I could go on and on.
Now, I don't have personal problems using these things but I really feel for those that do, especially when it is genetic obesity.
Now, because we created these large, insecure people they feel that to be accepted they need to spend thousands on things like, "fat camp" which speaking from success percentages, does nothing really to help them in the long term or even worse it results in those gross plastic and reconstructive surgeries, removing organs and such....MY GOD!
It just seems that first we create the "demon" and then shun it.
Does this effect anyone else? It really makes me want to scream and want to cry all at the same time.
Okay...vent over...sorry and thank you for putting up with me.
So...I noticed a very strange thing, for me, at least today.
I can only speak from the American Culture perspective here...
PWB and I were in a restaraunt today and this family was seated at a booth near us. They were obese, to the point where I felt bad for them. One of them mentioned that the fit behind the table was way too tight.
Now, I know that for many genetics and diet have alot to do with obesity but I think our culture does not help.
Here we go...as I was sitting in the restaraunt noticing these people I also took notice of the copious amounts of food on our plates, but growing up we are taught to eat all our food because children are starving elsewhere in the world. Not only that but we have this society so hell bent on diet plans that people actually end up gaining more weight on them than losing, but they spend the money so in the corporate sense all is right in the world. Then we flaunt waif thin models and idols, making the people we first create feel bad about who they have become.
Then the things in our world are created for the less than average sized people. The average size for women in America today is a 14 (which is what Marilyn Monroe averaged, between 12 and 14, just for mental reference). Yet in the mall, most of the stores catered to the *really* petite women. Fashion does. The chairs, booths, transit seating, restroom stalls, cars..I could go on and on.
Now, I don't have personal problems using these things but I really feel for those that do, especially when it is genetic obesity.
Now, because we created these large, insecure people they feel that to be accepted they need to spend thousands on things like, "fat camp" which speaking from success percentages, does nothing really to help them in the long term or even worse it results in those gross plastic and reconstructive surgeries, removing organs and such....MY GOD!
It just seems that first we create the "demon" and then shun it.
Does this effect anyone else? It really makes me want to scream and want to cry all at the same time.
Okay...vent over...sorry and thank you for putting up with me.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Don't forget the other end of the warped spectrum.
Anorexia and bulimia. A couple of years ago I spent a lot of time in a psych ward in a childrens hospital and most of the patients were girls with eatting disorders. Not just teenaged girls, one girl was 8 bloody years old. I grew pretty close to some of them and one of the ones I got to know died last year in the hospital from complications of her anorexia and bulimia. She had been in the psych ward for a total of 3 years, most of that time being force fed with a feeding tube up her nose and down her thoat with a pump on a IV pole.
So im pretty jadded to this whole thing to.
[ 16. February 2003, 16:32: Message edited by: Astar ]
Don't forget the other end of the warped spectrum.
Anorexia and bulimia. A couple of years ago I spent a lot of time in a psych ward in a childrens hospital and most of the patients were girls with eatting disorders. Not just teenaged girls, one girl was 8 bloody years old. I grew pretty close to some of them and one of the ones I got to know died last year in the hospital from complications of her anorexia and bulimia. She had been in the psych ward for a total of 3 years, most of that time being force fed with a feeding tube up her nose and down her thoat with a pump on a IV pole.
So im pretty jadded to this whole thing to.
[ 16. February 2003, 16:32: Message edited by: Astar ]
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Aster, I was bulemic for quite a long time, however, that is much easier to hide than the obesity, because in this society we actually praise people for being unhealthily thin. They get hired to be icons and models. There are even some careers where such things are encouraged. We create the beasts we battle as a culture, all for what? The mighty dollar.
To this day I will cry if I eat and feel really full. Or eat when I am upset and cry as I struggle to not puke, several years after I supposedly "beat" bulemia.
And I watch the shows on MTV about the people fighting obesity, I saw my cousins wife have her stomach removed and then suffer malnourishment because a forkfull of yogurt filled her up. And I look in the mirror and think of a million things I would like to change, even though I know the best thing to do is to reconcile myself to how I look. And then I think of the embarrassment when someone can not fit behind the table in a restaraunt and I can not help wonder why? What the hell is so damn important about looks anyway? The never matter to me about others, but I feel I need to be comfortable to look at otherwise people won't want to be around me. And I grew up with my parents shoving down my throat to worry what the neighbors will think.
FireMike wrote something in an article that hit home, where a company wanted to hire a fire troupe only if they excluded a "heavier" girl because she did not fit thier view of what the performance artist should look like. It hurt reading that. I think people think that way about me sometimes. In some ways, I think most people do. Where is the line drawn? The girl and her troupemates were strong about this though, and stood their ground.
Recently Lane Bryant had a fashion show and a late night talk show host made fun of the models...because they are average sized. And people laugh, and encourage this behaviour.
Where do we draw the line? Where do we say that enough is enough. The thin are just as apt to be unhealthy as the heavy nowadays, and neither is a good place to be. *sigh* It just really bothers me, alot more than I thought evidentally.
First we create them, then we condemn them...and even if it isn't verbal, there are so many more subtle weapons in the world to let us know we don't fit. How freakin' hainus.
[ 16. February 2003, 18:37: Message edited by: Pele ]
Aster, I was bulemic for quite a long time, however, that is much easier to hide than the obesity, because in this society we actually praise people for being unhealthily thin. They get hired to be icons and models. There are even some careers where such things are encouraged. We create the beasts we battle as a culture, all for what? The mighty dollar.
To this day I will cry if I eat and feel really full. Or eat when I am upset and cry as I struggle to not puke, several years after I supposedly "beat" bulemia.
And I watch the shows on MTV about the people fighting obesity, I saw my cousins wife have her stomach removed and then suffer malnourishment because a forkfull of yogurt filled her up. And I look in the mirror and think of a million things I would like to change, even though I know the best thing to do is to reconcile myself to how I look. And then I think of the embarrassment when someone can not fit behind the table in a restaraunt and I can not help wonder why? What the hell is so damn important about looks anyway? The never matter to me about others, but I feel I need to be comfortable to look at otherwise people won't want to be around me. And I grew up with my parents shoving down my throat to worry what the neighbors will think.
FireMike wrote something in an article that hit home, where a company wanted to hire a fire troupe only if they excluded a "heavier" girl because she did not fit thier view of what the performance artist should look like. It hurt reading that. I think people think that way about me sometimes. In some ways, I think most people do. Where is the line drawn? The girl and her troupemates were strong about this though, and stood their ground.
Recently Lane Bryant had a fashion show and a late night talk show host made fun of the models...because they are average sized. And people laugh, and encourage this behaviour.
Where do we draw the line? Where do we say that enough is enough. The thin are just as apt to be unhealthy as the heavy nowadays, and neither is a good place to be. *sigh* It just really bothers me, alot more than I thought evidentally.
First we create them, then we condemn them...and even if it isn't verbal, there are so many more subtle weapons in the world to let us know we don't fit. How freakin' hainus.
[ 16. February 2003, 18:37: Message edited by: Pele ]
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I was examining a patient the other day who was obese. I couldn't percuss the borders of his liver. I couldn't hear his heart very well. I couldn't hear his bowel sounds. I couldn't assess his abdominal musculature. I couldn't hear his lungs very well. It was bad.
I remember asking the doctor I was working with: "so are like 70% of the patients here obese?" He said "more like 85-90%. After all, obese people get sick more often." Of course this was a patient with seizures, so his complaint wasn't obesity-related, but still, it's hard to do a good physical exam on an obese patient.
It drives me nuts! And what do we have in our hospital? A friggin' WENDY'S.
I was examining a patient the other day who was obese. I couldn't percuss the borders of his liver. I couldn't hear his heart very well. I couldn't hear his bowel sounds. I couldn't assess his abdominal musculature. I couldn't hear his lungs very well. It was bad.
I remember asking the doctor I was working with: "so are like 70% of the patients here obese?" He said "more like 85-90%. After all, obese people get sick more often." Of course this was a patient with seizures, so his complaint wasn't obesity-related, but still, it's hard to do a good physical exam on an obese patient.
It drives me nuts! And what do we have in our hospital? A friggin' WENDY'S.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
member
531 posts
531 posts
Posted:
One of the saddest but most true things I heard in the last decade was CeCe Deville of Poison say "I really think it is more socially acceptable to be a junkie than to be fat". That may not be his exact wording but it was in that context.
What can you do?I just ignore negativity on a superficial level.If you don't like some part of me than don't bother with me.Though I'm not trying to get performance gigs either.Not that I would care even in that scenario but can understand how others feel about it.
One of the saddest but most true things I heard in the last decade was CeCe Deville of Poison say "I really think it is more socially acceptable to be a junkie than to be fat". That may not be his exact wording but it was in that context.
What can you do?I just ignore negativity on a superficial level.If you don't like some part of me than don't bother with me.Though I'm not trying to get performance gigs either.Not that I would care even in that scenario but can understand how others feel about it.
member
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
Posted:
Education?
If it exists, genetic obesity must be VERY rare. Your weight is down to two things, what you eat, and how much exercise you get.
I'm sure most fat people are fairly conscious that they eat too many fatty foods and don't get enough exercise.
Fatty foods and lazy activities seem to have bigger advertising budgets. Look at McDonalds, or games consoles.
But when you eat a burger, don't you have a nagging feeling in the back of your mind that you should be eating more fruit? Having spent the last week lazing in bed, I'm dying to get out in the fresh air and do something active.
It's definitely wrong to discriminate against someone because they are fat, but I wonder how soon before we have to start making special accomodation for them, e.g bigger seats in diners, cinemas, aeroplanes.
hmm.
Education?
If it exists, genetic obesity must be VERY rare. Your weight is down to two things, what you eat, and how much exercise you get.
I'm sure most fat people are fairly conscious that they eat too many fatty foods and don't get enough exercise.
Fatty foods and lazy activities seem to have bigger advertising budgets. Look at McDonalds, or games consoles.
But when you eat a burger, don't you have a nagging feeling in the back of your mind that you should be eating more fruit? Having spent the last week lazing in bed, I'm dying to get out in the fresh air and do something active.
It's definitely wrong to discriminate against someone because they are fat, but I wonder how soon before we have to start making special accomodation for them, e.g bigger seats in diners, cinemas, aeroplanes.
hmm.
Magnus... pay it forward
SILVER Member
member
44 posts
Location: Darwin............, Australia
member
44 posts
Location: Darwin............, Australia
Posted:
Interesting topic.
I have spent time in psych wards myself (as a patient, though!) and seen the anorexics wailing because they are scared of the sustagen that they have to drink if they want to avoid a nasal-gastric tube. (most would rather the tube because there are ways to fool the nurses about how much of it is actually getting to their stomach).
I consider myself a healthy weight, more plump than skinny, and I feel for obese people, but in a different way.
I feel frustrated that they are judged as being stupid, or useless by other people, simply because of their size. If you have ever been overweight, then lost it, you will have noticed the change in attitudes towards you once the weight has gone. I think that sucks.
I understand that some things are hard to avoid because of pressure from society/parents, and I can see the point that obese people may have gotten that way due to these pressures, and find it very hard to change.
I also think that there comes a time where you can't blame society for your own self. As I said before had a few trips to the psych ward a few years ago and have just last year been diagnosed with severe social phobia/panic disorder. I have been this way most of my life and it is obvious that it had a lot to do with the way I was brought up. I have been angry about it, but there is a difference between knowing the root of it and blaming someone for the way I am.
The only way I can help myself is by thinking "ok, this is what I have, this is what needs to change, and I don't like living like this, so I'll do what needs to be done". Screw the reasons I got this way. they're irrelevant to me changing my situation.
I have sympathy, but if you're obese (or depressed or shy or whatever), and it is making your life difficult/unhappy, then get some help and do something about it. Everyone deserves support in bettering themselves for any reason, but pity doesn't change a thing. Live by example, because a society is just a whole bunch of people.
Sorry, have had a bit of a rant/vent myself. Also got off the obese topic, but I think this parallels.
Eat for energy, eat for health, but most of all eat for ENJOYMENT!
Interesting topic.
I have spent time in psych wards myself (as a patient, though!) and seen the anorexics wailing because they are scared of the sustagen that they have to drink if they want to avoid a nasal-gastric tube. (most would rather the tube because there are ways to fool the nurses about how much of it is actually getting to their stomach).
I consider myself a healthy weight, more plump than skinny, and I feel for obese people, but in a different way.
I feel frustrated that they are judged as being stupid, or useless by other people, simply because of their size. If you have ever been overweight, then lost it, you will have noticed the change in attitudes towards you once the weight has gone. I think that sucks.
I understand that some things are hard to avoid because of pressure from society/parents, and I can see the point that obese people may have gotten that way due to these pressures, and find it very hard to change.
I also think that there comes a time where you can't blame society for your own self. As I said before had a few trips to the psych ward a few years ago and have just last year been diagnosed with severe social phobia/panic disorder. I have been this way most of my life and it is obvious that it had a lot to do with the way I was brought up. I have been angry about it, but there is a difference between knowing the root of it and blaming someone for the way I am.
The only way I can help myself is by thinking "ok, this is what I have, this is what needs to change, and I don't like living like this, so I'll do what needs to be done". Screw the reasons I got this way. they're irrelevant to me changing my situation.
I have sympathy, but if you're obese (or depressed or shy or whatever), and it is making your life difficult/unhappy, then get some help and do something about it. Everyone deserves support in bettering themselves for any reason, but pity doesn't change a thing. Live by example, because a society is just a whole bunch of people.
Sorry, have had a bit of a rant/vent myself. Also got off the obese topic, but I think this parallels.
Eat for energy, eat for health, but most of all eat for ENJOYMENT!
...a little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
Throw your dreams into space like a kite, and you do not know what it will bring back, a new life, a new friend, a new love, a new country.
member
43 posts
Location: London
43 posts
Location: London
Posted:
I'm definately feeling Maid Marion's vibe about predjudice towards obese people.
I've been underweight and overweight and both have their advantages and disadvantages. When you are obese (clinically you only have to be 45 lbs overweight to be classified as obese), people treat you like you are lazy, stupid and a second-rate citezan. Which doesn't help the situation, as obesity is a catch 22 situation. You feel like crap so you stuff your face, someone calls you fat, you feel even shitter and then stuff your face some more.
The other side is though, as a woman (sorry can't speak for men, as not one) if you are slim and try to look good, people treat you as a piece of meat and stare at your tits rather than listen to what you have to say. So how do we win?!
We all want to be liberal and objective and give people a chance, but the fact is we don't do it. We are all judgemental and all say things in jest which can really hurt people. We say we think there should be a wider variety of shapes and sizes in magazines, but if they put fat models in magazines we would probably take the piss as much the next person.
At least its a start that people recognise there is a problem with society and body image etc. But it doesn't make a difference until we actually start acting differently. Action speaks louder than thought.
xx
Take care y'all, and keep smiling
I'm definately feeling Maid Marion's vibe about predjudice towards obese people.
I've been underweight and overweight and both have their advantages and disadvantages. When you are obese (clinically you only have to be 45 lbs overweight to be classified as obese), people treat you like you are lazy, stupid and a second-rate citezan. Which doesn't help the situation, as obesity is a catch 22 situation. You feel like crap so you stuff your face, someone calls you fat, you feel even shitter and then stuff your face some more.
The other side is though, as a woman (sorry can't speak for men, as not one) if you are slim and try to look good, people treat you as a piece of meat and stare at your tits rather than listen to what you have to say. So how do we win?!
We all want to be liberal and objective and give people a chance, but the fact is we don't do it. We are all judgemental and all say things in jest which can really hurt people. We say we think there should be a wider variety of shapes and sizes in magazines, but if they put fat models in magazines we would probably take the piss as much the next person.
At least its a start that people recognise there is a problem with society and body image etc. But it doesn't make a difference until we actually start acting differently. Action speaks louder than thought.
xx
Take care y'all, and keep smiling
....so does it come with a hat?
GOLD Member
member
80 posts
Location: Massachusetts, US, USA
member
80 posts
Location: Massachusetts, US, USA
Posted:
Pele,
your second post in this topic made me cry. i'm a "recovering" anorexic whatever that means, and its so hard. i constatntly feel pressure to be thinner, especially when its not actually there. i'm so afraid of looking fat that that part of me can control everything i do. i just wonder if/when people actually recover from these things. i think it's more a matter of managing them than making them disappear.
i just don't understand how people like me can aknowledge that its really unhealthy to be so thin and know first hand that it will destroy EVERYTHING in your life and alienate you from everyone who matters to you, and still not be able to completely banish the tendancies.
--end personal emotional rant here--
our culture is clearly sick, but because americans are "free" that means we, and the fast food industry, are free to ruin people's lives for the sake of someones's "american dream". which i think should really be called the american whim. how is that so many countries are capitalist but we seem to be ideologically the most screwed up one? maybe it just seems like that cause we always assume we're right about everything...or something. i don't pretend to know what's really best for people.
Pele,
your second post in this topic made me cry. i'm a "recovering" anorexic whatever that means, and its so hard. i constatntly feel pressure to be thinner, especially when its not actually there. i'm so afraid of looking fat that that part of me can control everything i do. i just wonder if/when people actually recover from these things. i think it's more a matter of managing them than making them disappear.
i just don't understand how people like me can aknowledge that its really unhealthy to be so thin and know first hand that it will destroy EVERYTHING in your life and alienate you from everyone who matters to you, and still not be able to completely banish the tendancies.
--end personal emotional rant here--
our culture is clearly sick, but because americans are "free" that means we, and the fast food industry, are free to ruin people's lives for the sake of someones's "american dream". which i think should really be called the american whim. how is that so many countries are capitalist but we seem to be ideologically the most screwed up one? maybe it just seems like that cause we always assume we're right about everything...or something. i don't pretend to know what's really best for people.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Originally posted by Shads, Feb 16, 2003
Now when we talk about obesity and other weight related problems, on here we're talking more about how people look. But then obesity is diagnosed by height weight ratio type things.
Now in Australia every now and then we have 'current affair' type programs that do big things about such and such a woman who is 95kg snd has to lose weight to live. You see a picture and these people are severely obese.
But when I say that I'm 5'5" and weigh 100kg most people online assume that I'm hugely obese, which clinically I am. But to look at I look like an average size 14 and realisitically I am only slightly larger than the average size 14.
There are alot of days where I do feel like a large person and that people look at me because of it. Then again most of the time I see myself as an attractive, strong person. Professionally I'm a massage therapist, and alot of my weight comes from my muscle tone
The obese rant is a personal rant for me, as it is for alot of people. Though I have never been discriminated against at any fire shows I've performed at, I've always been very aware that I'm not ultra slim like the guys I perform with, but at the end of the day I believe within myself that that doesn't mean it makes me look any less sexy that the others, and in some ways I think it makes it more sexy, I'm comfortable moving my body to add to my performance, and I think its the quiet self-esteem in larger girls that makes them so attractive.
[ 17. February 2003, 05:32: Message edited by: Pele ]
Originally posted by Shads, Feb 16, 2003
Now when we talk about obesity and other weight related problems, on here we're talking more about how people look. But then obesity is diagnosed by height weight ratio type things.
Now in Australia every now and then we have 'current affair' type programs that do big things about such and such a woman who is 95kg snd has to lose weight to live. You see a picture and these people are severely obese.
But when I say that I'm 5'5" and weigh 100kg most people online assume that I'm hugely obese, which clinically I am. But to look at I look like an average size 14 and realisitically I am only slightly larger than the average size 14.
There are alot of days where I do feel like a large person and that people look at me because of it. Then again most of the time I see myself as an attractive, strong person. Professionally I'm a massage therapist, and alot of my weight comes from my muscle tone
The obese rant is a personal rant for me, as it is for alot of people. Though I have never been discriminated against at any fire shows I've performed at, I've always been very aware that I'm not ultra slim like the guys I perform with, but at the end of the day I believe within myself that that doesn't mean it makes me look any less sexy that the others, and in some ways I think it makes it more sexy, I'm comfortable moving my body to add to my performance, and I think its the quiet self-esteem in larger girls that makes them so attractive.
[ 17. February 2003, 05:32: Message edited by: Pele ]
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Magnus, you know I love you but I have to tell you that the mindset you displayed is one of the ones I was ranting over. Genetic obesity is actually not uncommon. I know several people who have been diagnosed with the predisposition. All of them very active, health concious people (in fact, my cousin's wife who had her stomach removed could outdance most of the trained dancers I knew over the course of a whole night). It is not about the food issues a good share of the time. Now, the genetic thing can be battled, but it takes *alot* more to do so. My (adoptive) family is one of the genetic ones. A few good friends of mine are also in that category. Just as much as there are people out there who can not put on weight, there are those who can not take it off.
And to accomodate the average sized person in so many areas seems only reasonable, not at all off putting to me.
Maid Marion, alot of these people do take responsibility and they go for help. They do the diet plans, and become very embarrassed when they fail. It is a catch 22 is so many ways.
As someone who has worked with nutrition and such in the past, who has dealt with both sides of this issue (and with a child who is paper thin and can't gain weight) it is frustrating.
Leliel...eating disorders are much like any other addiction, we utilize what resources we have to form some illusion of control, power and as an emotional outlet. For those of us with eating disorders we use food as our weapon. We either over or under eat, and truly it may start as a social thing (ie: need to be thin to fit in) but then it becomes a control issue, which is why the more our lives spiral out of control the stronger our urge to fall into our dietary issues. It becomes an addiction, and addictions are illnesses. The problem with eating disorders is that even when the underlying psychological issues are treated, we still carry that addiction, that desire, with us...just as any alcoholic does. Talk to a "recovering" alcoholic and they will tell you it never goes away...and it doesn't for us either. It is a disease that will plague us our entire life. And the biggest challenge we face versus, say, alcoholism is that a recovering alcoholic does not have to go into a bar, they don't have to be where alcohol is....but we HAVE to eat. Our tormentor, our vice is also a lifetime necessity...and it is difficult to face day in and day out. It never, ever goes away and can only be taken moment by moment.
Magnus, you know I love you but I have to tell you that the mindset you displayed is one of the ones I was ranting over. Genetic obesity is actually not uncommon. I know several people who have been diagnosed with the predisposition. All of them very active, health concious people (in fact, my cousin's wife who had her stomach removed could outdance most of the trained dancers I knew over the course of a whole night). It is not about the food issues a good share of the time. Now, the genetic thing can be battled, but it takes *alot* more to do so. My (adoptive) family is one of the genetic ones. A few good friends of mine are also in that category. Just as much as there are people out there who can not put on weight, there are those who can not take it off.
And to accomodate the average sized person in so many areas seems only reasonable, not at all off putting to me.
Maid Marion, alot of these people do take responsibility and they go for help. They do the diet plans, and become very embarrassed when they fail. It is a catch 22 is so many ways.
As someone who has worked with nutrition and such in the past, who has dealt with both sides of this issue (and with a child who is paper thin and can't gain weight) it is frustrating.
Leliel...eating disorders are much like any other addiction, we utilize what resources we have to form some illusion of control, power and as an emotional outlet. For those of us with eating disorders we use food as our weapon. We either over or under eat, and truly it may start as a social thing (ie: need to be thin to fit in) but then it becomes a control issue, which is why the more our lives spiral out of control the stronger our urge to fall into our dietary issues. It becomes an addiction, and addictions are illnesses. The problem with eating disorders is that even when the underlying psychological issues are treated, we still carry that addiction, that desire, with us...just as any alcoholic does. Talk to a "recovering" alcoholic and they will tell you it never goes away...and it doesn't for us either. It is a disease that will plague us our entire life. And the biggest challenge we face versus, say, alcoholism is that a recovering alcoholic does not have to go into a bar, they don't have to be where alcohol is....but we HAVE to eat. Our tormentor, our vice is also a lifetime necessity...and it is difficult to face day in and day out. It never, ever goes away and can only be taken moment by moment.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
I typed a huge post and lost it.
Basicly I think your peers have more pull with you then anything else including the media, and I think any attitude or belief of society is more passed on theour personal interaction then it is through the media.
I typed a huge post and lost it.
Basicly I think your peers have more pull with you then anything else including the media, and I think any attitude or belief of society is more passed on theour personal interaction then it is through the media.
member
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
Posted:
Pele, I know... that's why I was trying to be diplomatic.
All I know, is that everything we do is an expression of who we are, whether it is what we choose to wear or how we choose to spend our time.
I've never met a skinny person who didn't eat like a gerbil. I've never met someone with an athletic figure who didn't exercise daily. I've never met a fat person who didn't eat junk food and watch lots of TV.
Mind you, a fat person can eat less than an athletic person and maintain their weight, because their metabolism is so low. The thinnest person I know eats like a horse, but because she plays netball, goes jogging, etc, has a great body.
I still think the images promoted by beauty magazines are very very bad, and if we really need to make seating bigger in certain areas, that's ok.
Society SHOULD accept fat people. But this doesn't mean that junk food should be encouraged or that it's ok to be lazy.
Pele, I know... that's why I was trying to be diplomatic.
All I know, is that everything we do is an expression of who we are, whether it is what we choose to wear or how we choose to spend our time.
I've never met a skinny person who didn't eat like a gerbil. I've never met someone with an athletic figure who didn't exercise daily. I've never met a fat person who didn't eat junk food and watch lots of TV.
Mind you, a fat person can eat less than an athletic person and maintain their weight, because their metabolism is so low. The thinnest person I know eats like a horse, but because she plays netball, goes jogging, etc, has a great body.
I still think the images promoted by beauty magazines are very very bad, and if we really need to make seating bigger in certain areas, that's ok.
Society SHOULD accept fat people. But this doesn't mean that junk food should be encouraged or that it's ok to be lazy.
Magnus... pay it forward
member
43 posts
Location: London
43 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Magnus,
I get what you are saying about how we should accept overweight people, but not accept junk food or laziness. The problem is I think is not that overweight people are lazy, but because they have such a low self-esteem that they don't want to exercise because it is embarrassing and because they don't feel they are worth it.
The other problem is that we get so much weird faddy nutritional advice nowadays and have such a small sense of family and community that people don't actually know how to cook simple, quick, healthy food. There is so much salt and sugar in the modern diet that normal fresh produce no longer tastes right to many people.
And in reply to your post Leliel,
Have faith, people recover from anorexia every day. You should try and think why you need to be in control so badly, not about being fat or thin. As always your weight is not the real issue, but what experiences you have had in the past that make you feel so out of control.
I went to several single sex schools when I was a teenager, where anorexia and bulemia are almost a way of life. Two of my very good friends are still recovering from anorexia, but they ARE recovering. They have both done it through self-discovery and in trying to find out who they really are underneath.
You can so do this! It gets easier and easier to let go. I promise.
lots of luv and support
The Tiny Manic One
xx
'We are all loved beyond our ability to comprehend'
Magnus,
I get what you are saying about how we should accept overweight people, but not accept junk food or laziness. The problem is I think is not that overweight people are lazy, but because they have such a low self-esteem that they don't want to exercise because it is embarrassing and because they don't feel they are worth it.
The other problem is that we get so much weird faddy nutritional advice nowadays and have such a small sense of family and community that people don't actually know how to cook simple, quick, healthy food. There is so much salt and sugar in the modern diet that normal fresh produce no longer tastes right to many people.
And in reply to your post Leliel,
Have faith, people recover from anorexia every day. You should try and think why you need to be in control so badly, not about being fat or thin. As always your weight is not the real issue, but what experiences you have had in the past that make you feel so out of control.
I went to several single sex schools when I was a teenager, where anorexia and bulemia are almost a way of life. Two of my very good friends are still recovering from anorexia, but they ARE recovering. They have both done it through self-discovery and in trying to find out who they really are underneath.
You can so do this! It gets easier and easier to let go. I promise.
lots of luv and support
The Tiny Manic One
xx
'We are all loved beyond our ability to comprehend'
....so does it come with a hat?
member
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
Posted:
thingeymajig, agree 100%
laziness is definitely due to low self-esteem. but then laziness leads to low self-esteem. it's a vicious circle. I've been there, and it took me years to escape.
The greatest lie ever told is "all that matters is the sort of person you are inside". It's simply not true, if you don't express the spark within then it might as well not be there.
thingeymajig, agree 100%
laziness is definitely due to low self-esteem. but then laziness leads to low self-esteem. it's a vicious circle. I've been there, and it took me years to escape.
The greatest lie ever told is "all that matters is the sort of person you are inside". It's simply not true, if you don't express the spark within then it might as well not be there.
Magnus... pay it forward
member
536 posts
Location: beneath a cloak of self-torture
536 posts
Location: beneath a cloak of self-torture
Posted:
There is no going around it i am fat.
An every day i am disrespected for that....
but, it is funny that i'm still overwieght, i am
more inergetic and an athlete than most of the kids on my football team....
I'm in gym....
I hate football, and my school....so i'm not about to go support it. But my friend and i were out on the field and we were watching these kids
run up and down the field...
My friend mocking them runs after them....he gets about half way down the field and stops....
I'm bust laughing at him and he tells me to try it....so as soon as they get to my side of the field i run after them....
Not only am i able to keep up but i beat them back, twice....
So most of the time it is up to overweight people to lose thier weight....i don't belive it when people i know tell me "It's my genetics,...." and i go home with them that same day and they sit on their sofa and eat and watch t.v....
That just isn't right....but in most cases it is....In mine it's not...i lost 70 something pounds in one summer on eating rabbit food and
exercise.....
it is that simple....diets don't work....some can even seriously hurt you....like that "Atkins" diet or whatever....
but i'm just saying that it is up to us to change not some person on t.v. if can't even do that than what kinda of world are we living in?
There is no going around it i am fat.
An every day i am disrespected for that....
but, it is funny that i'm still overwieght, i am
more inergetic and an athlete than most of the kids on my football team....
I'm in gym....
I hate football, and my school....so i'm not about to go support it. But my friend and i were out on the field and we were watching these kids
run up and down the field...
My friend mocking them runs after them....he gets about half way down the field and stops....
I'm bust laughing at him and he tells me to try it....so as soon as they get to my side of the field i run after them....
Not only am i able to keep up but i beat them back, twice....
So most of the time it is up to overweight people to lose thier weight....i don't belive it when people i know tell me "It's my genetics,...." and i go home with them that same day and they sit on their sofa and eat and watch t.v....
That just isn't right....but in most cases it is....In mine it's not...i lost 70 something pounds in one summer on eating rabbit food and
exercise.....
it is that simple....diets don't work....some can even seriously hurt you....like that "Atkins" diet or whatever....
but i'm just saying that it is up to us to change not some person on t.v. if can't even do that than what kinda of world are we living in?
-LuNcHbOx, Aka. Nathan...Give a man to fish, and that man knows where to come for more fish...Teach a man to fish and you have just destroyed your market base...
member
531 posts
531 posts
Posted:
One thing I will say for those with children,a good place to start is to raise the next generation not to just accept this way of thinking.We may not change this mentality in our lifetimes but we should raise children to be more compassionate and not so judgemental of each other over what has no bearing on someone's character.
Just my $0.02
Disclaimer:Not saying those of you with children aren't raising your children in that manner.
quote:I don't think I can agree with that having met larger people who were confident with themselves and could express who they really are.Again it goes back to self-esteem.A lot of folks don't have the self-esteem to express that person on the inside whether they be under or overweight.I understand your POV on laziness though.
Originally posted by Magnus:
The greatest lie ever told is "all that matters is the sort of person you are inside". It's simply not true, if you don't express the spark within then it might as well not be there.
One thing I will say for those with children,a good place to start is to raise the next generation not to just accept this way of thinking.We may not change this mentality in our lifetimes but we should raise children to be more compassionate and not so judgemental of each other over what has no bearing on someone's character.
Just my $0.02
Disclaimer:Not saying those of you with children aren't raising your children in that manner.
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
I remember one time at school one of my peers brought her little niece into the school for some reason and her niece said "Ewwww she's fat" when a person with a severe thyroid problem walked by and the older girl just laughed and said it was "cute"
you really have to wonder about how people raise kids. I was talking to a person in a grocery store about these cool shopping carts that have like the cab of a truck on the front so the kid can sit in it and pretend to drive while their parents shop. She said you woudln't believe how many parents will steal those shopping carts for their kids aswell as steal the little kid sized shopping carts so they had to stop people from leaving the store with them. I just can't imagine that. It's like "here little billy here is a toy I stole for you" No wonder each generation of kids seems to be worse and worse.
I remember one time at school one of my peers brought her little niece into the school for some reason and her niece said "Ewwww she's fat" when a person with a severe thyroid problem walked by and the older girl just laughed and said it was "cute"
you really have to wonder about how people raise kids. I was talking to a person in a grocery store about these cool shopping carts that have like the cab of a truck on the front so the kid can sit in it and pretend to drive while their parents shop. She said you woudln't believe how many parents will steal those shopping carts for their kids aswell as steal the little kid sized shopping carts so they had to stop people from leaving the store with them. I just can't imagine that. It's like "here little billy here is a toy I stole for you" No wonder each generation of kids seems to be worse and worse.
member
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
Posted:
Mr Box, I applaud your attitude 100%
When people say "It's my genetics" they are saying "I don't believe I can do anything about this"
"Going on a diet" will never work, but "changing YOUR diet" will. The meaning of the word 'diet' has become distorted by womens magazines.
Mr Box, I applaud your attitude 100%
When people say "It's my genetics" they are saying "I don't believe I can do anything about this"
"Going on a diet" will never work, but "changing YOUR diet" will. The meaning of the word 'diet' has become distorted by womens magazines.
Magnus... pay it forward
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
3,638 posts
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Posted:
surely by saying to kids 'it's allright to be fat' is just going to make more fat kids?
I'm not meaning to be nasty - but obesity is a health issue more than an aesthetics one. I have no problem with plump people - I just don't think that in MOST cases you can get obese if you look after yourself well. And if you start saying it's ok not to look after yourself then the world is about to become a very unhealthy place.
contraversial opinions but I can't help it.
[ 18. February 2003, 00:50: Message edited by: fluffy napalm fairy ]
surely by saying to kids 'it's allright to be fat' is just going to make more fat kids?
I'm not meaning to be nasty - but obesity is a health issue more than an aesthetics one. I have no problem with plump people - I just don't think that in MOST cases you can get obese if you look after yourself well. And if you start saying it's ok not to look after yourself then the world is about to become a very unhealthy place.
contraversial opinions but I can't help it.
[ 18. February 2003, 00:50: Message edited by: fluffy napalm fairy ]
Geologists do it in the dirt................ 
member
43 posts
Location: London
43 posts
Location: London
Posted:
I see what you are saying Napalm about not teaching our children that it is healthy to be overweight, but the fact is, that currently we teach our children (and ourselves) that it is healthy to be underweight for aesthetic reasons.
The beauty industry makes billions of dollars using pre-pubescent, underweight models in advertisements. The reason being, that it is impossible to have skin, hips, legs etc. like that once you hit puberty, and so we spend massive amounts of money trying to reach an unobtainable goal.
Models are getting younger and younger, as well as thinner and thinner. Its a huge issue if you think about the lifestyle associated with the modelling industry i.e. cocaine, heroin and alcohol abuse. There really should be more age restrictions on modelling. Its fine for 14 year olds to model for 14 year olds, but throwing these young girls in at the deep end can hardly be good for them, or the general public.
I don't think that by teaching your children to be accepting to others means they will want to be fat. Surely you would want your children to grow into open minded compassionate adults.
I see what you are saying Napalm about not teaching our children that it is healthy to be overweight, but the fact is, that currently we teach our children (and ourselves) that it is healthy to be underweight for aesthetic reasons.
The beauty industry makes billions of dollars using pre-pubescent, underweight models in advertisements. The reason being, that it is impossible to have skin, hips, legs etc. like that once you hit puberty, and so we spend massive amounts of money trying to reach an unobtainable goal.
Models are getting younger and younger, as well as thinner and thinner. Its a huge issue if you think about the lifestyle associated with the modelling industry i.e. cocaine, heroin and alcohol abuse. There really should be more age restrictions on modelling. Its fine for 14 year olds to model for 14 year olds, but throwing these young girls in at the deep end can hardly be good for them, or the general public.
I don't think that by teaching your children to be accepting to others means they will want to be fat. Surely you would want your children to grow into open minded compassionate adults.
....so does it come with a hat?
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Thank you thingymajig....I really liked how you put that.
Thank you thingymajig....I really liked how you put that.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
member
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
Posted:
yeah me too, agree 100% thingeymajig.
yeah me too, agree 100% thingeymajig.
Magnus... pay it forward
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Id like to see what mike says but personally I think obsesity is a term that is over used in medical terms and is quite often a copout. Theres only a few medical problems associated with actually being heavy. Such as back problems and joint stress. The real problems are muscle tone, heart condition, cholesterol, aerobic heatlh etc... Although these are related to obesity I think they are more related to life style. Simply put you can be fat by societys standards and still be a healthy person. There are lots of skinny people who have all the health problems I listed above. I would say a healthy diet is necesary but healthy diet is a dynamic thing based on your activity level and personal metabolism, health etc etc...
Id like to see what mike says but personally I think obsesity is a term that is over used in medical terms and is quite often a copout. Theres only a few medical problems associated with actually being heavy. Such as back problems and joint stress. The real problems are muscle tone, heart condition, cholesterol, aerobic heatlh etc... Although these are related to obesity I think they are more related to life style. Simply put you can be fat by societys standards and still be a healthy person. There are lots of skinny people who have all the health problems I listed above. I would say a healthy diet is necesary but healthy diet is a dynamic thing based on your activity level and personal metabolism, health etc etc...
SILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
A healthy weight is also something changes person to person. I am never gonna be Kate Moss, my ancestry is Germanic, and I suspect good old Anglo Saxon. Yes, modern lifestyle is very different from the active lives that my ancestors most probably lived, far more sedantary. So I do need to work on keeping healthy. But a healthy weight for me, because of my basic build (strong legs and shoulders) and my basic core muscle (I can pick up a heavy bag and build a bicep) I am never going to be a lightweight. (I am working towards toned and terrific )
A healthy weight is also something changes person to person. I am never gonna be Kate Moss, my ancestry is Germanic, and I suspect good old Anglo Saxon. Yes, modern lifestyle is very different from the active lives that my ancestors most probably lived, far more sedantary. So I do need to work on keeping healthy. But a healthy weight for me, because of my basic build (strong legs and shoulders) and my basic core muscle (I can pick up a heavy bag and build a bicep) I am never going to be a lightweight. (I am working towards toned and terrific )
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Another thing to consider is people never used to work out for the sake of working out, they stayed healthy through work. But for some people work may just be lifting heavy stuff all the time. This isn't nearly as well rounded and useful a work out as a person who runs, weight trains, sit ups etc.. on a regular basis.
Another thing to consider is people never used to work out for the sake of working out, they stayed healthy through work. But for some people work may just be lifting heavy stuff all the time. This isn't nearly as well rounded and useful a work out as a person who runs, weight trains, sit ups etc.. on a regular basis.
SILVER Member
Do my poi look too small in this?
394 posts
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Do my poi look too small in this?
394 posts
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted:
Just from my own perspective, I can say that I know WAY more large (and obesce) girls and boys here in Toronto than in Europe, but that could very easily be from my own experience.
What I definitely see a lot of is this conceptualized idea of what beauty is. It's a form of brainwashing for sure, but there aren't very many societies where obescity is considered attractive. But a small amount of fat should definitely not be considered ugly at all.
I watched a documentary on ideas of Sex around the world, and it talked about how many african tribes consider our models to disgusting to look at.
The thing is that if someone is raised by TV (which most americans and canadians are) then they get this idea of beauty pushed on them so much that they're pretty much brainwashed into thinking that this is what beauty is supposed to be!
Personally I have my own personal taste in women, but for the most part, all the fat people I know are less lazy than I am!
RE: Performers being excluded because of their weight. I can't imagine that any 'showbiz' occupation will ever be anything but superficial. It's just the way it is and there's nothing I can ever do about it.. I've been in enough clubs where a cute girl (my student usually) starts to spin her poi and clears the dancefloor. Guys are hootin and holaring but once I step into the scene people just want me out of the way.
In one case the girl got all these compliments from every guy in the club, while I got a girl coming up to me and telling me I should just practice at home.
Just from my own perspective, I can say that I know WAY more large (and obesce) girls and boys here in Toronto than in Europe, but that could very easily be from my own experience.
What I definitely see a lot of is this conceptualized idea of what beauty is. It's a form of brainwashing for sure, but there aren't very many societies where obescity is considered attractive. But a small amount of fat should definitely not be considered ugly at all.
I watched a documentary on ideas of Sex around the world, and it talked about how many african tribes consider our models to disgusting to look at.
The thing is that if someone is raised by TV (which most americans and canadians are) then they get this idea of beauty pushed on them so much that they're pretty much brainwashed into thinking that this is what beauty is supposed to be!
Personally I have my own personal taste in women, but for the most part, all the fat people I know are less lazy than I am!
RE: Performers being excluded because of their weight. I can't imagine that any 'showbiz' occupation will ever be anything but superficial. It's just the way it is and there's nothing I can ever do about it.. I've been in enough clubs where a cute girl (my student usually) starts to spin her poi and clears the dancefloor. Guys are hootin and holaring but once I step into the scene people just want me out of the way.
In one case the girl got all these compliments from every guy in the club, while I got a girl coming up to me and telling me I should just practice at home.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Here's an interesting thought, thanks to FieryFlow.
Has anyone noticed a biasedness in the weight issues between the sexes.
For exapmle, it seems that heavier men are more acceptible from women...they are cuddly, they are represented in the media as football players, wrestlers, etc. In Polynesian cultures and Japan the LARGE men (wrestlers) are concidered to be "stallions", really great catches.
In older societies, "baroque" shaped women were more acceptible because they were a symbol of fertility (ie: Willendorf Venus).
Today, the heavier men still tend to not be scorned against as much as heavier women. But the opposite is true. Thin women are held in high (media standard) regards while thin men tend to be looked at scoffingly.
It's interesting to me to see how the standard for men has not changed...a bit of weight is a good thing, too little is not healthy.
But with women it has not only changed over time but it also is now the complete opposite of men where the thinner the better and heavy in the least bit calls for liposuction.
I think that the gender issues are really intriguing when applied to this. If you put a thicker girl (I am not saying fat here, just thicker) next to someone super skinny, the skinny girl would get the attention I bet, whether or not her abilities called for it. Women are stuck in a very unfortunate catch 22 in this respect.
Here's an interesting thought, thanks to FieryFlow.
Has anyone noticed a biasedness in the weight issues between the sexes.
For exapmle, it seems that heavier men are more acceptible from women...they are cuddly, they are represented in the media as football players, wrestlers, etc. In Polynesian cultures and Japan the LARGE men (wrestlers) are concidered to be "stallions", really great catches.
In older societies, "baroque" shaped women were more acceptible because they were a symbol of fertility (ie: Willendorf Venus).
Today, the heavier men still tend to not be scorned against as much as heavier women. But the opposite is true. Thin women are held in high (media standard) regards while thin men tend to be looked at scoffingly.
It's interesting to me to see how the standard for men has not changed...a bit of weight is a good thing, too little is not healthy.
But with women it has not only changed over time but it also is now the complete opposite of men where the thinner the better and heavy in the least bit calls for liposuction.
I think that the gender issues are really intriguing when applied to this. If you put a thicker girl (I am not saying fat here, just thicker) next to someone super skinny, the skinny girl would get the attention I bet, whether or not her abilities called for it. Women are stuck in a very unfortunate catch 22 in this respect.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
if you asked any man here, we would all probably give you the same answer, we dont care about how thicker or thiner our partners are.
this is a womans issue that us men tend to stear clear of. there is no way of changing a womans mind once she has thoughts about her size. a woman will allways have issues with their appearances no matter what.
in an age of different modern technological life style plastic surgeons are readily availiable for those so gulible to belive media orientated looks and styles.
quote:i completely disagree pele.
Originally posted by Pele:
It's interesting to me to see how the standard for men has not changed...a bit of weight is a good thing, too little is not healthy.
But with women it has not only changed over time but it also is now the complete opposite of men where the thinner the better and heavy in the least bit calls for liposuction.
I think that the gender issues are really intriguing when applied to this. If you put a thicker girl (I am not saying fat here, just thicker) next to someone super skinny, the skinny girl would get the attention I bet, whether or not her abilities called for it. Women are stuck in a very unfortunate catch 22 in this respect.
if you asked any man here, we would all probably give you the same answer, we dont care about how thicker or thiner our partners are.
this is a womans issue that us men tend to stear clear of. there is no way of changing a womans mind once she has thoughts about her size. a woman will allways have issues with their appearances no matter what.
in an age of different modern technological life style plastic surgeons are readily availiable for those so gulible to belive media orientated looks and styles.
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Way to make ridicilous blanket statement, numbers for a name.
Way to make ridicilous blanket statement, numbers for a name.
SILVER Member
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA
Posted:
Most people take lousy care of themselves, be it in terms of what they eat, what they do, or what they don't.
Its no surprise people are so unhappy these days.
Raph
Most people take lousy care of themselves, be it in terms of what they eat, what they do, or what they don't.
Its no surprise people are so unhappy these days.
Raph
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