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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Okay...so....if you do a search on obesity you will have no problem finding my opinions on the subject, or on societal impacts on body image but wtf?

A vaccine? Do we need to an excuse to be more lazy?
My understanding is that it is in the testing on rat phase, and that it is working at blocking the "hunger" chemical in our bodies, thus we do not eat as often.
Now, there are people who need it. There are people who are missing it. There was a man (forgot his name) who weighed about 1000 lbs. When they studied him they found that he was missing the "I'm full" chemical the body releases and had a constant stream of the "I'm hungry" one. He could use it absolutely.

However, the articles I have been reading have been making it seem like when it is approved it will be handed out like a measles vaccine. Ugh.

I think it would be more harmful in the long run. Now, they do not know if it would have an impact on someone who indulges in a fat laden diet, however, say it does and they don't put on tonnes of weight. Great. However, their blood pressure will still be high from sodium and their arteries will clog from fat but they will think they are healthy because they have been vaccinated from being fat!
Ugh I say...UGH!

The articles I was reading were piggy-backed on one about how obesity is the new race for people to be bigotted against. I don't find that to be new at all. Just sad that now fat people are concidered a "race" to themselves and that judgemental fools feel the need to regard them as something other than the humans that they are (though I have that feeling towards any bigotry).

I would much rather see money put into education programs, especially for youth, and into healthier meals at schools, hospitals, etc. Instead of just being cheap.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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burningham


burningham

Second wave. DIVE!


Total posts: 132
Posted:I agree about the education thing. Kids shouldn't be encouraged to eat rubbish food with little nutrition, and they should be encouraged to go out and do stuff.

Part of the problem is down to new media/technology (videogames/internet forums/tv/msn.....) Kids don't need to get up and go anywhere to do stuff these days, it's all available in their bedroom).

All just my opinion of course.


Hello?

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poi_chucka


newbie
Location: New Poi-Land

Total posts: 4
Posted:where I come from kids were riding horses and catching their own food before puberty. Kids these days are just plain lazy imo

"smoke me a poi, I'll be back for breakfast"

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Flanimal_Lover


member
Location: Slough Massive, UK

Total posts: 43
Posted:we were never bored as kids - leave the house after breakfast on our bikes, come back cream crackered when hungry. not an issue - think of all the cool stuff..

british bulldog
kiss chase
knock down ginger
rolling down hills
knicker chase (bit older - granted)
ubblove


Poi-er to the People!

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Kiss chase has been deemed as sexual harrasment in a lot of schools. If you do it they will take you to court in alot of places...in england anyway. Teh lame...

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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LTBlista


newbie


Total posts: 19
Posted:I played kiss chase at school, and often ended getting a fumble out of it, but we were way too young to understand the implications of it. The west(ESP UK) has gone completely overboard trying to be PC, and actually ended up being more offensive to the groups it is trying to protect by being overly patronising. This is my first day so I don't want to rant so I will leave it there for now.

as for obesity, I think it is a result of massive media exposure, and no more. if kids grow up yearning for appallingly bad foods, they'll get them now matter how hard you try to stop them. In adults, the problem is more often than not there from childhood anyway. No better example of this is USA. very scary, and actually quite sad.


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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted: Written by: BritJoe

they



 Written by: Bill Bailey

The Wizzards?



wink


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Pele


Okay...so....if you do a search on obesity you will have no problem finding my opinions on the subject, or on societal impacts on body image but wtf?

A vaccine? Do we need to an excuse to be more lazy?
My understanding is that it is in the testing on rat phase, and that it is working at blocking the "hunger" chemical in our bodies, thus we do not eat as often.



Ok, just as an FYI for all who are interested. The hormone in question is a small protein called Grehlin (GREY-lin). It is secreted by the stomach in response to stretch and it serves as a positive feedback mechanism for food intake. Some people produce a lot of grehlin and we tend to be the people who gorge ourselves at "all-you-can-eat" buffets. Some people don't produce a lot and they rarely get fat and they almost never finish what's on their plate unless they're REALLY famished.

 Written by:


Now, there are people who need it. There are people who are missing it. There was a man (forgot his name) who weighed about 1000 lbs. When they studied him they found that he was missing the "I'm full" chemical the body releases and had a constant stream of the "I'm hungry" one. He could use it absolutely.




Well here's the interesting debate. So we as humans have done something a bit odd. See, for hundreds of thousands of years, H. sapiens evolved under a given set of conditions. Food was scarce, there wasn't a restaurant around the corner, and we had to work HARD to stay alive.

So many of us evolved "thrifty metabolisms." We tend to eat whenever we can, we store it as fat, and we don't like to move around a lot.

Now, there are genes that cause more or less of these tendencies in different people. Some people never seem to eat very much, are rather active even at baseline (leg shaking, etc) and stay thin. Other people eat more and are less active at all times and less inclined to get exercise anyway...and so they tend to get fat. 10,000 years ago, before the advent of agriculture, the tendency to fat was very adaptive as it made you more likely to withstand a famine. But in the last 5-6,000 years we developed agriculture and so we almost never have to worry about our next dinner. However, it's only in the last century or so that the industrial revolution has all but eliminated the sort of manual labor. People used to walk everywhere, they used to have to sweep the floor, do the dishes, haul the water, knead the bread, etc. Now we get up in the morning, walk ten steps to our bathrooms, shower, shave, walk twenty steps to the kitchen, walk ten steps to the garage, go from parking lot to office (and that, for many people, is the longest walk of the day), and sit on our butts all day. And then we repeat the exact same cycle at night.

And so then we have to do something even MORE unnatural... Some of us who know our tendency to get fat, then have to block a certain amount of time to throw ourselves in the water for an hour and a half every day (or the gym, or the road, or the bike, or the stairmaster, or whatever). No stone-age human ever did something so silly as going out to exercise for the heck of it. Their days naturally had plenty of exercise in them.

And so now we live in this completely unnatural civilization we've built for ourselves, Pele, and you complain that an obesity vaccine is unnatural?

I view this as a first step in a step that we will ultimately need to take if we are to secure our species' survival and health.

Problem 1) Thanks to modern medicine, traits that were previously selected against (for example, certain dimensions of the appendix, or a tendency to get asthma, or a pelvis too narrow for childbirth) now have no negative selection. As we get better and better at treating more and more diseases, 95% or more of the population is surviving to adulthood and reproducing.

Problem 2) Many of the problems currently affecting the human race are problems that occur after child-bearing age. Thus, there is no selective advantage to having a high tendency to these diseases. Heart disease is an example.

As a result, there is nothing that is currently forcing the human genome to compensate for our physical inadequacies. We're mal-adapted to our environment.

We can't change our environment to a truly "healthy" environmemnt because such a change involves almost impossible logistics. But we CAN change ourselves so that we're adapted to our environment.

What do I mean? I mean vaccinating ourselves against grehlin, a hormone that reduces physical activity and increases food intake. We no longer need grehlin. It doesn't serve a selective advantage anymore, but we have no way of eliminating it from the genome. More about that in a second.

We've done similar things before, such as routine tonsillectomy/adenoidectomy and routine appendectomy. These are once-adaptive structures that now serve no apparent purpose except to cause trouble and there appears to be no negative effect of having either removed...except for the operative risk. So imagine that we could vaccine against developing tonsils or an appendix. That'd be kinda cool.

What if we could change our genomes and eliminate the "fat" genes? That would drastically reduce the cost of health care by eliminating obesity. This is the first step along that road. What if we could change our genomes and eliminate Alzheimer's, or change our bodies so that they were uninfectable by HIV?

But there's a dark side do this. What if we could change our bodies to have our children have whatever hair color they wanted? What if we could find the genes responsible for such tendencies as greed, violence, hatred, and...rebelliousness?

We have been handed potentially dangerous and abusable technologies before. To date, our race has made wise decisions with most of those, although not all.

I think it's time to think about changing what we are so that we can adapt to our environment. And I'm excited about this vaccine, because I think it's ultimately going to be good for my patients.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Thanks Doc, good post! I've just read this week about the population of an island (forgot which unfortunately), where now more than 50 % of the adults have type II diabetes, simply because the grehlin runs quite high in their population - because it used to help them survive.

I might put this down a little too simply, but there's a reason so many people regain any weight they lose during diets. There's not only the grehlin, there is also the matter of some people's digestion being more effective (and therefore getting more calories out of the same amount of food) than others'.

Sure, you can say do more exercise and have more discipline, but that seems a bit too simple. And where do you draw the line? How is it okay for an 800 pound person to get the vaccine, when a 250 pound person is also at the risk of cardiovascular problems and diabetes and feels just as helpless to get rid of 80 pounds as the other does to get rid of 600?

By the way, just eating too much doesn't mean you're full of cholesterol and sodium - you can overeat on pretty much healthy food, too. And not every overweight person has high sodium or blood pressure.

Refusing to give that vaccine would be like refusing to give protection to other people who do things that are dangerous... is it "cheap" to make condoms available to prevent the spread of a disease that would be pretty much self-limiting if people had very strict morals and stuck to them (like sex only in marriage, no divorces, no drugs)? Is it cheap to sell nicotine plasters and chewing gums and so stop the lung cancer that goes along with nicotine addiction? I think if the vaccination goes through, in a few decades people will accept it - I'll definitely welcome it.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Mark P
BRONZE Member since Oct 2001

Mark P

old hand
Location: Bath, England

Total posts: 1031
Posted:If they could make beer and cider calorie free I would be a happy (and slimmer!) man smile

I have been involved in the chemistry side for a while and I understand where targets are coming from. If people are overweight and worried about it then there is a market for a appetite depressant. In a similar way that there was a market for Viagra(tm) and that is now one of the largest selling pharmaceuticals.

I feel that these sort of problems, are ones which could be sorted in other ways, there are many more important issues that could be researched such as cancer, hiv, mrsa and even things as innoxuois as the flu virus.

mark p x


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_Aime_
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

_Aime_

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Hastings

Total posts: 4172
Posted:Hmmm

I am fat, because I eat too much. Simple as.
I know that if I want to get thin, I just have to eat better foods and get more exercise. Hell yeh an injection would be good, but I wouldnt take it. We all just need better education about the decisions of what we choose to put into our body.

However sufferers of Prader Willi Syndrome could really benifit from this drug. People suffering from PSW have an insatiobal appitite. Like Pele said they are missing the "I'm full". They're never full. Given the choice a few would eat themselves to death.

The could have the oppertunity to lead and independant lifestyle, and for those with learning disabilities just have a home help once or twice a week, as opposed to living in a care home.
And in the UK these specialised homes are few are far between, so you're living away from you're family and friends.

I've seen how much pain and anguise having PWS causes. And end to that would be lovely.


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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I havent bothered to read any of these posts but my god imagine an injection to get rid of your flab! Amazing! I could lie down, stuff myself with chocolate and just not do anything EVER AGAIN! AMAZING!! ubblol

Even better: a chocolate bar that burns calories. Yeah! biggrin ubblol


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted: Written by: Mark P


I feel that these sort of problems, are ones which could be sorted in other ways, there are many more important issues that could be researched such as cancer, hiv, mrsa and even things as innoxuois as the flu virus.




Believe me, they do get researched.

If you add up the number of people that will need medical care, suffer a lot or even die due to things related to being overweight (cardiovascular problems, type II diabetes among others) in the next decades you'll go far beyond flu or mrsa.

And as I said before, how can you draw a line like that, saying it's worth to do research for those who choose (or can't help it) unprotected sex, but not for those who choose (or can't help it) to eat too much? confused

It's unrealistic and a bit unfair to expect either of these problems to solve itself. Of course, it's much easier for society to dismiss people as fat, greedy and lazy and show pity for those who suffer from HIV (which is probably largely due to the fact that most of us have easy access to protection and Africa is far away).


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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buggleberry_fairy
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

buggleberry_fairy

member
Location: Wales

Total posts: 172
Posted:Good topic.

I think the idea of the quick and painless option will fall flat on our faces - if this vaccine does become a handed out like measles vaccine, then it will probably turn out (once too late) that there is a long term side effect to it that wasn't recognised. Yes it may work for some people - but like botox and tummy tucks i think its geting a bit out of control. If medically your body can't produce the chemical, then great it is a fantastic vaccine to have available. But obesity is not a disease or an infection, so should not be vaccinated against. It is how we feel. If it keeps going like this then there will be vaccines to control our emotions and exactly the way our body looks. We are how we are supposed to be, if we change it then we are changing ourselves. Its within we need to work on. The obese - if have fully functional chemicals - need to work on what they eat and exercise. The unhappy with their appearance people need to work on how to be happy with themselves without drastic measures to make them feel as though they fit in. I think everyone at some time thinks that they looks horrible, or hate a part of them, but its their motivation and self confidence that needs to be worked on - not injecting themselves with some sort of formula.

Back to the obese vaccine - i think that if they have no chemical then yes this is acceptable, but to other obese - no, they need to work it out by diet and exercise, and as a handed out to everyone vaccine - we are depending on chemicals and quick fixes, rather than ourselves so it is totally unacceptable.


"Be the change you want to see in the world"

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:yeah, and if someone's depressed that's just how they feel either, and they should just work on being happier? I don't agree there!

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes


I havent bothered to read any of these posts but my god imagine an injection to get rid of your flab! Amazing! I could lie down, stuff myself with chocolate and just not do anything EVER AGAIN! AMAZING!! ubblol




It's not like that. What it would do is it would make you move around more.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Mark P


II feel that these sort of problems, are ones which could be sorted in other ways, there are many more important issues that could be researched such as cancer, hiv, mrsa and even things as innoxuois as the flu virus.




Really? Do you have any idea how many patients I've seen get sick and die because of obesity?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Is the obesity problem going to reduce in the near future...unlikely. Will become worse if anything.

If its not what can be done to reduce the huge medical issues associated with obesity....possible solution of vaccination sounds plausible.

I think that if you dont put weight on you will possibly excercise more than if you became overweight . Not sure that makes sense. I used to excercise regularly, then I had kids and now if I excercise it is uncomfortable physically. So I am less liely to do it. I carry weight so it hurts my kness to walk alot so I dont tend to and swimming is inconvenient. If I was less heavy I would excercise more.
In Australian Aboriginals what the Doc was talking about is a huge problem. Hunter gatherers until a few generations ago and diabetes and kidney disease now is a huge problem in the society. More prevalent than in the rest of the European extraction popualtion. The vaccine would raise the quality and length of life considerably.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I'd just like to point out that my earlier thread was one made in sarcastic jest. For this i apologise smile

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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buggleberry_fairy
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

buggleberry_fairy

member
Location: Wales

Total posts: 172
Posted:birgit - if that was for me, i know depression is a condition and so its more than just making yourself feel happier - but i was talking like giving people a boost so just slightly happier...hmm it would turn into just like drugs.

"Be the change you want to see in the world"

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:What I was getting at is that obesity IS a disease. Being overweight is one thing, but obesity is a state that needs to be changed if you want to avoid serious damage to the body.

Comparing something that can help millions of people avoid that damage to botox or liposuction or whatever is completely ignoring the problem, and it's like saying depressive people should just be a bit happier, or anorexics should just eat a bit more, or addicts should just practice some more self-control.

If it was all a case of "just" altering one attitude and being a happier person, that would be great.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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buggleberry_fairy
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

buggleberry_fairy

member
Location: Wales

Total posts: 172
Posted:your right there - its a long process and without all the facts its hard to make a judgement. but i dont believe that everyone should have the vaccine - that would be getting out of control.



for the disease part, i meant that obesity is a condition, not a disease caused by a parasite/bacteria/virus and so a vaccine for it would not really be a vaccine - if you get what i mean.

EDITED_BY: buggleberry_fairy (1155149715)


"Be the change you want to see in the world"

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:okay smile though the vaccination bit just really means the immune system gets activated, in this case against something produced by the body (grelin).

But the grelin could be something that's tested for in kids and if it's found to be very high the vaccination could be given out to those people, not everyone. Testing for it also means that those kids could be encouraged more than others to join a sports team when they're still young, for example.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Birgit


But the grelin could be something that's tested for in kids and if it's found to be very high the vaccination could be given out to those people, not everyone. Testing for it also means that those kids could be encouraged more than others to join a sports team when they're still young, for example.



Why the extra cost of the test? We don't need grehlin. Grehlin knock-out mice (mice who don't have it) are a healthy weight and don't starve.

Just vaccinate everyone.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: buggleberry_fairy


for the disease part, i meant that obesity is a condition, not a disease caused by a parasite/bacteria/virus and so a vaccine for it would not really be a vaccine - if you get what i mean.



A vaccine is something administered to establish an antibody or cytotoxic response against a given antigen. There is no reason that the vaccine need be against a foreign antigen in order to be a vaccine.

Now, obesity is not a disease, per se, because it in of itself does not cause symptoms, but it is a significant risk factor. However, a disease need not be caused by an infection. Take heart disease, asthma, allergies, epillepsy, crohn's disease, emphyzema, and others for example.

Imagine we could vaccinate against some protein involved in the development of blood vessel disease...would you take such a vaccine? I'd roll up my sleeve for it in a second! This is no different.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


Why the extra cost of the test? We don't need grehlin. Grehlin knock-out mice (mice who don't have it) are a healthy weight and don't starve.




Wow, didn't know that smile Agreed then!


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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