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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:So a Tampa Tech High School teacher is suing the local NFL stadium stating that the new pat-down rules are a violation of his rights, his freedom.

And I agree.

Now, the NFL is stating that it is to protect the fans (and I love this) from terrorist attacks. Ummmm..excuse me? Since when have terrorist shown any interest in the NFL?
And if they did I would be very disappointed in them.

This policy was put into place recently, why not on Sept 12th? Why wait so many years? Why after there have been *no* terrorist attempts is it all of a sudden?
And it is not isolated to the NFL. I went to a concert and was patted down.

If they want to wave a wand over me. Fine.
Want me to empty my pockets and look through my purse...absolutely, please do.

But this public local event having security tighter than the local airport just because they want an excuse to grope me is assnign. And these are events that have not been dangerous before.

So much for innocent until proven guilty. I simply go to ones where I know I won't be treated like a criminal first...or where they give me a better reason than terrorist (like one club which does pat downs on certain nights because they do not want "gang" violence. Then again, I don't work those nights, but you get the idea. wink )

Thoughts?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:You're right, they should wait until terrorists attack and then put the policy in place - just like the air ports did wink

The reason why there haven't been any attacks? Peoples lives are having to change because of the few there have been. My guess is that they think they are winning a bit more everytime an innocent person gets searched.


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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maus
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

maus

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Posted:I used to get really angry when i got searched aswell....mainly as it seemed that so many of the places i went to with my friends I'd almost ALWAYS end up being that one that got searched.guess i must be shifty looking or something!

I do agree that it seems a bit strange that they are patting down at an NFL stadium. However there are a lot of potentially lethal things that may not show up under a security wand, or be stored in a purse.

Personally i hate being searched, its embarrassing and a violation of my human rights. Unfortunately though we are living in a day and age where its better to be safe than sorry.

 Written by: pele

Now, the NFL is stating that it is to protect the fans (and I love this) from terrorist attacks. Ummmm..excuse me? Since when have terrorist shown any interest in the NFL?



They havn't but at same time until they unleashed the first bombing attack on the trains and buses over here they had never shown an interest in them either.

And from the stadiums point of view, they have large groups of people in the stadium at certain times, thus making it a very unlikely(admittedly), but never the less a possible target for a terrorist attack.

Look at the pattern of previous attacks....most of them are in highly populated public places, that are completely unsuspected.

I know it probably sounds like I'm on their side but I'm not. I really do hate the fact that we all have to be searched etc. for various things now, as it does make me feel like terrorists are winning.

However, if a quick pat down and a search meant that one day, now or in the future, somebody with lethal intentions was stopped from entering somewhere and it may have inadvertantly(sp?) saved my life...I'm prepared to patted down.No matter how much it annoys me!




rolleyes


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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I'd much rather everyone was patted down/searched than being blown to smitherines smile

Maus is right, it's because of the huge numbers of people in the same place at the same time. Better to be safe than sorry wink


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:I'm going to add some more background to this story in my best John McLaughlin impersonation.

Issue 1: HALF-A$$ED
The patdowns conducted at Raymond James Stadium only require the security officers to search fans from the waist up! In theory, anyone could enter the stadium with explosives under their pant leg undetected. As a matter of fact, a local television reporter tested that scenario last season and got in with a mock bomb strapped to his leg. In addition, a suicide bomber could cause as much destruction standing in line waiting to gain entry to the stadium as he could once inside. Thousands of people mill about RayJay before the games. Also, a car bomb could be placed in a parking lot and break up a few tailgate parties. Yet, cars are not inspected entering the public lots.

ISSUE 2: DA BULLS!
Raymond James Stadium is also the home field for the University of South Florida Bulls. Some weekends you can see the Bulls play on Saturday night and the Bucs play Sunday afternoon. Patdowns are not conducted at USF games. What's to prevent a terrorist from entering a Saturday night game and planting a device timed to do damage Sunday afternoon?

ISSUE 3: NOT ON MY DIME!
This policy is mandated by the NFL, not the city of Tampa or any other government body. Therefore, many believe that the Tampa Bay Buccaneers should be responsible for footing the bill for the additional security. The Bucs, always one to weasel out of a bill, say the taxpayers should pay for it. "After all, we extorted this new stadium out of them by threatening to leave," Bucs owner Malcolm Glazer was misquoted as saying. "They even bought into the line that we would pay for part of it, too. Those suckers will buy anything, so they'll probably buy this, too."

So, those are three factors that figure heavily into this. The patdowns may make you feel secure, but in reality they provide little to no protection for fans. This sounds more like posturing than anything else. And if it's just a "feelgood" measure the NFL wants, the NFL should pick up the tab and leave the taxpayers to pay for real security.


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Fine_Rabid_Dog


Internet Hate Machine
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Posted: Written by: Pele



Now, the NFL is stating that it is to protect the fans (and I love this) from terrorist attacks. Ummmm..excuse me? Since when have terrorist shown any interest in the NFL?




Ummm... seems to me that a huge football stadium, filled to the brim with americans,watching a game loved by the entire nation is an ideal target.

Its not so much that the NFL is a target, just the whole of america. Attacks could happen anywhere, and a place full of people seems like a sensible place.

shrug

As for the infringment of human rights... its a toughie. On one hand, it is an ivasion of privacy and of personal space, but on the other, what if someone was carrying something? If there was no pat down, and it wasn't found, who would be to blame?

The NFL? Or those that complained about their infringement of rights?

Sadly, the NFL's decision on pat downs may actually be to cover their own asses, rather than out of concern for the lives of thier customers.

Lame.

frown


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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FoxInDocs
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA, Australia

Total posts: 1848
Posted:I don't know about football games, but big concerts here have always had pat-downs, mainly for drugs and camera's i think but they've always been there, it's not something that annoys me terribly, especially if it does prevent a terrorist entering a placed packed with innocent people.

However, i do agree with Prometheus on the half-a$$ed point... The rule here is that women can only be patted-down by female security gaurds, so if there's no female security gaurds on at the time, chicks just walk straight in. I've had to stand around waiting for my guy friends to be patted down on entering concerts when they had nothing on them, and i had my camera stuffed down the front of my baggy shorts.


"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

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wonderloey


wonderloey

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Location: Melbourne - home of pirates

Total posts: 255
Posted:LOL.. Last time I went to Two Tribes (big dance party) they patted us all down after checking our IDs..

One of my mates looks like she's about 15, and forgot her ID. But she managed to slide by the security guards.. In the line.

I don't think much of private security doing this kind of work - in Australia at any rate the level of training and licencing is so poor for private security that to do anything like this is a waste of money and an invasion of privacy.

If fear, paranoia and monetary waste is all we can come up with, those that would stage terrorist acts have already won.

*sigh*


"You've gone from Loey the Wonder Lesbian to everyone wondering if you are a lesbian." - Shadowman

Yesterday is yesterday. If we try to recapture it, we will only lose tomorrow.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Ummm....so far the tagets of attacks have been very pointed and not random. Masse transit, political buildings and world based business buildings are places that have HUGE economic impacts as well as masse destruction. A football game, a concert, etc...not likely.

Like I said, if it were for drugs or weapons, then I agree with it. And I have on many occassions.

But weak, half assed excuses I don't tolerate.

And at the concert..I did get my legs patted and was unthrilled.

FoxinDocs...there is the same rule here about female pat-downs. I've never been so lucky though. wink


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Pele



But this public local event having security tighter than the local airport just because they want an excuse to grope me is assnign.







Yes Pele, because the entire planet is conspiring just to grab your butt. wink



It sounds pretty reasonable to me actually. As anybody who's tried to get OUT of a sports arena after a game knows it is an IDEAL terrorists target plus it is typically American. In fact, I can't really think of many BETTER targets for inflicting the most amount of terror with the least amount of weapontry.



And since US terrorists have never recreated the same attack twice doesn't 'they've never hit it before so they won't start now' make no sense at all. No target 'had ever been hit before', before it was hit in a certain manner.



With all of the civil rights injustices that have been invoked after 9/11 this one sounds rather tame.



And if you're going to come up with a conspiracy theory can you come up with one who's motivation is more compelling than 'your a$$'? ubblol


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Huh...NYC...you're the only one who is fixating on my butt here, so what's that say about you? I just said grope...I never said where.

You know what? Especially after reading this I have completely come to believe the terrorists have won.

We are a *more* paranoid society now...and people are supporting it.

I think it's ALL b.s. personally and I really think they'd have better targets than a bunch of dual-tone painted rednecks screaming over their sloshing beers.
It's kind of like alien abduction targets. I highly doubt the aliens would kidnapped the great unwashed as they have been accused.

But it'd be great to be proven wrong 'cause then all this crap would be worth it.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13921
Posted: Written by: Pele


Like I said, if it were for drugs or weapons, then I agree with it. And I have on many occassions.




Why? Does it hurt you if the next guy is doing drugs?

Weapons, that I can understand.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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jeffhigh
GOLD Member since Oct 2005

Member
Location: Caves Beach, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 89
Posted:It's all about your George Bush and our John Howard keeping the population in a state of FEAR so that we can be bent to their adjenda.
The security measures in most cases would only be a minor inconverience to anyone really intent on creating harm.


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Seb


Seb

Penguin of Mass Destruction and Tricky Bugger to the court of Claire the Askew
Location: Check behind you.

Total posts: 643
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: Pele


Like I said, if it were for drugs or weapons, then I agree with it. And I have on many occassions.




Why? Does it hurt you if the next guy is doing drugs?

Weapons, that I can understand.

smile Doc, he has wisdom.


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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:I disagree with the Tampa teacher and Pele. I really don't se how this is a violation of human rights.

I love this phrase 'human rights'. Anyone care to think about what it actually means? Which actual human right is being violated by a quick body search at an event where you paid for a ticket and in so doing agreed to all the terms and conditons of entry the management of that private property wishes to set out?

I have a right of freedom of movement, but this does not mean I can walk anywhere I please. I have the right to privacy, but if I go to a venue where the management states that by purchasing a ticket I concede to be searched on entry then it is perfectly in thier right to deny entry if I refuse the conditions of entry.

The phrase 'human rights' is a real big catchphrase but a completely grey statement. There's international charters and national laws protecting listed human rights but the actual protection and implementation of laws clashes with so many others. I know a ethnic group of people hell bent on learning 'human rights' but they still agree that they should be told who to marry, that men are superior, that not having a vote for thier leaders is fine. But they love 'human rights' courses as it's such a keyword.

The terrorism line is probably just what they're telling you and just one of the reasons for the pat-down. At the moment people will list the terrorist threat as a reason for doing things as people are a lot less likely to argue with it. Most clubs and venues here are searching for weapons, glass bottles, drugs, etc... and it's not uncommon to see metal detectors at big and small venues. Which is all fair enough, the less weapons on a night out the better.

And if the searches are ineffectual then you should be happy you're not having your balls squeezed everytime you want to watch football!


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Neon_Shaolin
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam

Total posts: 6120
Posted: Written by: Pele



But it'd be great to be proven wrong 'cause then all this crap would be worth it.





I hope a successful bomb or a knife attack isn't required to validate these unneccesary crap!



Yes it is annoying to be touched by people who you'd rather not have touch you but if I have nothing to hide then I'd have nothing to hide. Personally I'd be worried if they DIDN'T search us!



 Written by: Doc Lightning





Why? Does it hurt you if the next guy is doing drugs?









It may not hurt me but it might hurt someone who is foolish enough to buy whatever the dealer is selling OD or taking something that isn't what they thought they bought and die. As much as I'd like to say the user had it coming, if I was the club manager I'd prefer not to have a dead body on my hands just for the sake of 'live and let live/die'.


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13921
Posted: Written by: Neon_Shaolin


Yes it is annoying to be touched by people who you'd rather not have touch you but if I have nothing to hide then I'd have nothing to hide. Personally I'd be worried if they DIDN'T search us!




Wait, Dave, YOU of all people going for the "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" argument?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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maus
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

maus

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Posted: Written by: Neon_Shaolin


 Written by: Pele


But it'd be great to be proven wrong 'cause then all this crap would be worth it.



I hope a successful bomb or a knife attack isn't required to validate these unneccesary crap!





ditto I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Who cares what the reasonas behind it are...the point is as a general rule society isn't as safe as it used to be, and even though the chances are slim, surely its worth that extra minute of our time to be a little safer?????

In my eyes, we've only let the terrorist win if we let changes in security bother us.

I don't feel paranoid at all about terrorist attacks, but I'm happy to take valid precautions and take part in security checks, just for the peace of mind of other people.

smile


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Neon_Shaolin
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

Neon_Shaolin

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Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning



Wait, Dave, YOU of all people going for the "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" argument?



What are you implying...? rolleyes


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

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Posted:"In my eyes, we've only let the terrorist win if we let changes in security bother us."

Well, in my eyes, we've only let the terrorist win if we give them what they want. umm :

No? shrug


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:And after all, all terrorists are inhuman monsters, so they'd never see the difference between a political target and an innocent target, I mean, they're not fighting for anything in particular, they're just doing it for shits and giggles.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

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maus
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

maus

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Posted: Written by: UmbiliciformCraterOnFace


"In my eyes, we've only let the terrorist win if we let changes in security bother us."

Well, in my eyes, we've only let the terrorist win if we give them what they want. umm :

No? shrug



That too......

but my comment was in response to Pele's ...

 Written by: pele

You know what? Especially after reading this I have completely come to believe the terrorists have won.

We are a *more* paranoid society now...and people are supporting it.





Sorry...wasn't ver clear i know! rolleyes


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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United...

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Posted:why is a football club and concert not likely???

ok so here a terrorist attack was planned on one of londons busiest nightclubs the ministry of sound, the terrorists were caught and what they had planned to do and there telephone conversations were terrible. and it was an al quaeda planned attack because the place was going to be packed with young adults having fun and partying.
so if that can be a target then im sure a football stadium can.

i personally think pat downs are a very good idea, they cant place metal detectors eveywhere and even so bombs can be made from other materials and in lots of ways so that doesnt acheive anything, a bomb can also be any shape or size and so can be anywhere on the body hence why a pat down is necessary.

also yes i agree that ideal time can be whilst in a que for the tfl if there was a bomber but they would want to cause mass destruction and possibly do it whilst on tv to show the world they are serious and so tfl would be a potential target because it is aired live and also as someone has pointed out is a huge event in america...

never take chances i say,
put any security needed in force and keep our lives and lives of our children safe!!!


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dani_babyboo
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dani_babyboo

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Posted:oh and i couldnt put a link to the article because the sun make you pay to use there site grrr

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

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Posted:I dont see what the problem is? At big venues when i've been to see bands or at festivals I've always had my bag checked and had a quick pat down. It's just how things are, for drugs and weapons checks.
so what if I have to hide my weed in my sock?! ubblol

Seriously though, what's the problem?!


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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted:theres also a lot of dogs at festivals now but they can only work for so long and then have to rest

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

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Posted: Written by: Mme. Dani le Babyboo

so if that can be a target then im sure a football stadium can.





Surely a football match would have more security than simply a concert or a club night?



At clubs, there are about 15 bouncers max.

At football matches/ sports events, there are (I estimate) about 100 security guards/ stewards.



 Written by: Mme. Dani le Babyboo

a bomb can also be any shape or size and so can be anywhere on the body hence why a pat down is necessary.





Do you remember Richard Reid? umm



ubblol @ Meg biggrin


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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I'd like to see a bomb in the shape of a labrador.

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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maus
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia

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Posted:ubblol

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: Pele


Like I said, if it were for drugs or weapons, then I agree with it. And I have on many occassions.




Why? Does it hurt you if the next guy is doing drugs?

Weapons, that I can understand.




I'm allergic to pot smoke...so, yes. I nearly hacked up a lung in a movie theater because someone two rows down was smokin weed.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes


I dont see what the problem is? At big venues when i've been to see bands or at festivals I've always had my bag checked and had a quick pat down. It's just how things are, for drugs and weapons checks.
so what if I have to hide my weed in my sock?! ubblol

Seriously though, what's the problem?!




That terrorisism is an excuse for EVERYTHING now and I am tired of it.

If you read, I don't have a problem with the pat down. I have a problem with the reason I am given for it.

And I agree with Prom. A suicide bomber in line for a pat down won't be all "Ya know, I'm going to get caught so I think I will just turn around and leave." No. They will detonate that sucker in line, and if anyone has ever been to one of these events, the line is far more densely packed and crowded than the event is. Holding people up with searches makes it more likely and more dangerous imo.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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