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Distorted Silence


member
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 217
Posted:Possibly a subject thats been posted before but...

I went and had another little chat with staff at juggleart to find out some rather disturbing news... and I felt I should spread it around.

Fibre glass wicking is quite deadly. there is a boy of 20 years of age who from using the fibre glass wicking is now suffering from cancer based on the inhalation of the fibre glass fragments from his wicks. Its said that he wont live to see next year.
Now its also said that because fibre glass is so much cheaper than kevlar, people are going around and selling it at twirling groups, where you find it hard to tell the difference between fibre glass and cotton kevlar.

Well, it may be expensive, but i know that im sticking to the real stuff.


You've got to move fast to beat the Devil - Your arm's too short to box with God.

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:So uh how do you know a burning wick with a fibreglass/kevlar blend sends tiny pieces of fibreglass into the air?

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Fireboy, Thank you for editing your post. You can clealy see how attacking an individual underminds your arguement.

Back to the actual discussion.

Fiberglass is not toxic. Burt fiberglass is not toxic. The fuel used in any firespinning venue is toxic.

Your aguement seems to be that the small, nontoxic shards of glass may cut your lungs and allow the toxic fumes already present to enter your bloodstream faster than simply difusing through healthy lungs. My question remains, do you have any actual medical evidence to support this? Or are you simply extrapolating it from individual experience and rumor?


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:BTW silicons melting point is 1414 C (2577 F) and it's pretty much impossible to burn.

So it's not actually burning or melting or anything else when it's being soaked with kerosene and being burnt.


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:I think we could all debate this topic until we are blue in the face...(looked for a smurf smiley face but couldn't find one)

How about we ask all our friends if they know if their wick is kevlar cotton, kevlar fibreglass or fibreglass...and see if they have had any associated symnptoms?

Lets try and get some facts and figures ASAP rather than hypothesizing so much...

Just a suggestion...


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:So we ask them if they have tumors in their lungs?

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fireboy


An angry young man with a passon for metal
Location: Wagga Wagga, N.S.W, Australia

Total posts: 252
Posted:well, if any one had read the fix it yourself fibreglass patcher, just the smell gives an indication of the toxicity.
once bored aout of my mind though hmmmm.... HOP arguement fibreglass burning something (i was drunk at the time), so i got s stick, covered it in fibreglass let it sett and then decided to cover it in kerosene whilst it was on the ground, i litt it and stood my distance, so i didn't inhale any fumes.

dear got it reeked of burn plastic, type and it was almost intoxicating abit.....i did this last night, hehehehe, but the smoke i stayed away from.


Fireboy

<<SINister miNISister>>
remeber kids jesus slaves

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:Uh that is the resin that you smelled.

The resin in fibreglass is really toxic stuff. The fibreglass in wicks do not contain resin.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ok, I've checked the literature. I cannot find any mention of fiber glass being carcinogenic. Asbestos is, of course, but even in the event of very high-level exposure (which rarely happens anymore in this country), it takes many years for cancer to actually show.

This may be a hoax being spread by well-intentioned people or it might just be a rumor that got out, but I doubt it's true.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:quote:Originally posted by poiaholic22:

Granted I feel one day they will outlaw fiber glass the same way they did asbestos ... Hey fireboy,did you miss that part?

Oh and by the way,if you want to find out how "safe" our "normal" fiber glass is then you should do a search of fiberglass and cancer studies.There is about 3000 sites you can go to that will tell you that working with fiberglass is perfectly okay for your health.Here's one for you TAKE A DEEP BREATH!

Also what is all the fuss about the post being edited.I didn't even get to see it.

Also I thought asbestos was outlawed because of something called asbestosis .Cigarette smoke,exhaust fumes,and other fumes (like paint fumes) have all been linked to lung cancer and they haven't outlawed them yet.

I guess the real lesson to be learned here is that life is too short to constantly worry about everything.There are people on this board who have been doing fire arts for quite a many years.What are we saying,that they are all gonna start dropping like flies soon because of those deadly burning fiber glass wicks?

BTW Charles how do you tell the difference between cotton and fiber glass wicking?Does HoP use cotton kevlar in all their products?

[ 16. February 2003, 20:24: Message edited by: poiaholic22 ]


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Dr.NoodleHead
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

member
Location: The Giant Mushroom

Total posts: 170
Posted:quote:Originally posted by santanatwo:
Those little particles also have the potential to do physical damage to your DNA, because they are shreading your cells ever time your breath. Bits of glass in your lungs are probably not too good for you, but there is absolutely no way they can chop up your DNA.

Honest

Paraffin/kerosene fumes are pretty nasty, but then pretty much any burnt organic substance is carcinogenic - like toast, chips/fries, roast meat.

Guess none of us is going to live forever......least we can do is enjoy things while we're here, and for me that means spinning fire

Bestest


Fish are just like trees except they move and they're invisible

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:If asbestos can rip up your lungs, then I think it is likely that glass can too. If you have ever seen natural asbestos, it looks about like fiberglass. They are both basicaly rock. (serpentine and silicate respectively).

About the DNA damage. I said "possibility" because I can see how it could be possible. If you have little microscopicaly small razor sharp glass that is shreading your cells, some of it could penetrate your cellular membranes, and your nuclear membranes which are inside the cells. DNA is robust, but it is not the strongest studd in the world. When those little peices of glass do penetrate they could start messing around with all the little intricate proccesses that let your cells make good, healthy DNA (remember genetics class?) When that happens the potential exists for some of those cells with "modified" DNA to become cancer cells. Sure it is unlikely, otherwise we would probably all be dead of cancer already, because we tend to be healthy people, what with all the exercise we get . It is also unlike to get shot during a traffic stop, but police still wear bullet proof vests.

I still am unsure about the danger of stuff getting into the blood stream though. The barrier between your lungs and blood is very thin. But if getting into the blood was a problem then people would get heart cancer instead of lung cancer from smoking cigarettes. IMHO.

With everybody shouting for scientific evidence, what about the Doctor who diagnosed lung cancer in the otherwise healthy fire twirler who was using fiberglass wicks? I have a feeling he did so after observing lots of peices of glass in his lungs during the autopsy.

I tend to be a little paranoid and over cautiouse.

I am sorry if I offend you Astar. I certainly didn't mean to. I may have been using a little humor and a little sarcasm together, but it wasn't a personal attack on anyone. "jennay" is a humerouse line from Forest Gump", the CAPs are being used for emphisis, not shouting. I guess it is not good to use such things together durring a seriouse discusion, as I poder this I am reminded that I have seen negative effects to many times on this board. I will not edit it because I think that would be even worse. (wishy washy)


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:If you think that was flaming, you should have seen the post as I was writing it. I took out a butt load of humor and sarcam befor I even posted it, but I went and deleted all of it (or so I thought) befor I even posted it. I guess some of it slipped through.

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:I wasn't offended . I was just trying to advise you that it was undermining your point. I make my own share of posts like the one you did, they just slip through sometimes and things get miss read or sometimes im actually being hostile because im in a bad mood and stuff. It's a terrible habbit I need to break.

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Distorted Silence


member
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 217
Posted:Ah good thanks many to all of you especially santanatwo for putting what i was trying to say in words. (not the sarcasm stuff, but the info) I no speek goot. they speek wells.
And for the medical info from Charles, gladly waiting for what you find out.

On another note, I think everyone knows that the fumes we inhale (or absorb with fire breathing/eating) are bad for you, and we all choose to take the risk... its just that if fibre glass really does (and were still in the process of finding out) do a large amount of damage, than I'd rather avoid the unnessecary risk.

thanks all


You've got to move fast to beat the Devil - Your arm's too short to box with God.

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Juggleart got back to me saying they have no names details or any other certain fact about the case.

I've spent several hours searching the net and also have asked a few doctor friends to search any media or places that may not be available to me driectly.

So far, nothing at all on anything

Also, at the moment, there appears to be no documented case of cancer forming around a carcoinogenic object imbedded in someones body. Of course, either that or I'm not using the right keywords or taslking to the right people.

As for shards of glass (or anything else for that matter) in the lungs, yes thats bl00dy terrible for you.

However, it doesn't matter how sharp or small something is, as DNA is a molecule, you can only "cut" it with chemical reactions or radiation.

Can anyone with other medical knoweldge tell me where else I might look for info on this?


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:It is not actually direct "cutting" of the DNA I was talking about. There are these little protein fibers that form inside your cells, when your cells are dividing (cytoskeleton, microtubuals, etc). It might be possible for a microscopic piece of glass to make it's way inside a living cell. If it didn't kill the cell, and the cell attempted to divide, then the forieng particle could obstruct proper cell division, possible causing damage to the dna. The reason is you have fibers of protien spaning the cell, trying to pull the DNA into two equal halfs. With such a "large" network of fibers, it is quite possible for forieng object to get in the way. This is assuming the cell survives getting stabbed with a sharp peice of glass (which is not to far fetched, considering the stuf they do with cloning, and the shear number of glass fibers and cells to work with.

There is also the possibilityof other foreign material entering the cell when it is punctured. If this stuff manages to make it into the cell, and the cell survives, then these forieng molecules could interact with the genetic material. For instance, benzene is a carcinogen because, when your DNA is packing and unpacking itself, the benzene molecules fit nicely inbetween the loops and coils. This causes the DNA to not condense properly, and leaves it suseptible to damage. Normamly our cells and nuclei are protected by the membranes, but if you puncture the membranes there is a greater possibility of forieng material entering into the cell.

I have also heard of cases where exesive scar tissue can play a role in cancer development.

I know the "melting point" of glass is very high. But What tempurature does gasoline burn at when suplied with lots of oxygen? I don't thing we ever established that in previouse threads. It must be hot enought to melt glass though, for two reasons. #1 fuel/air mixtures burn realy hot. You can make a furnace to melt steel out of propane and a blower, and gas is a hydrocarbon, just like propane. (charcoal and caol also work, the main thing is having a good air supply, which twirling provides.)

#2 I had some kevlar rope (glass core threads) and I made some fire ropes out of it. After a few burns the ends where I had tied a knot started to frazzel. after a few more burns the kevlar started to burn off leaving glass fibers sticking out. I noticed they were getting burnt off slowly. I was concerned about fiberglass in the eye, so I glued the ends, but if I hadn't, all the fiberglass sticking out would have eventually burnt of.

#3 plus there is the fact that when you twirl you normaly wack stuff ocationaly, and if using fiberglass rope, there will be constant flexing and stuff. This will lead to physical breakage of the fiberglass strands, and thus little pieces of fiberglass will be constantly breaking off.




we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Hallo.
This all sounds really unlikely to me: an urban legend, maybe designed to sell more of a particular type of wicking.

Secondly, my qualifications for this post are an honors degree in Medical Biochemistry and experience working in the paddock of cancer research at the ICR.

Santana - sorry, but your cell damage theory wouldn't work. It's not easy for a random foreign particle to enter a cell. Cell membranes are pretty tough, and when they break the cell receives enough damage to start apoptosis - cell death. Cells just can't sit around with holes in them. As to something obstructing cell division - there's a lot in a cell already, they're packed, and all these natural lumps don't cause problems so a theoretical extra lump wouldn't.

Foreign matter in your lungs is a problem, but it looks like fibreglass is not carcinogenic. However your lungs are really big and can clean themselves pretty well, and a few little bits of material in there doesn't make a lot of difference. If you're really worried about what you inhale then I suggest moving and living in a dust free environment somewhere. May I suggest the space station or a top grade bio containment lab

So, in conclussion, spend your time worrying about something more worthy of your stress


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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:thats all you need,
A bloody expert to butt in and ruin a damn good arguement.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Great job Charles, it's is good to see someone do some research Admittedly, I was a bit skeptical because I thought fiberglass could be a carcinogen. The media play it up from time to time you know, but I'm convinced.

Though, I do think DNA can be cut by physical means. This is an extreme example, and I'm not sure if I have all the facts, but rattling in the o'l memory is something about a particle or gene gun using gold particles to interfere with DNA. There may be more info at sites like these ones:
Particle or gene gun.
Particle or gene gun.

Cheers


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:Wow dom has a honours degree in medical biochemistry, mike is a med student, nyc is a chemist, rick is a physicist I think, I know there is also another physicist that posts here.

I find it amazing how many highly educated people we have here, and in general how diverse this board is.


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Interesting Stone...I quite like that site, although, the gold particles are acting more like radiation than a phycial object.

I know its nitpicking, but i guess I'm just ahorrible old fastiddous nitpickeraryian...



HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:I just have a lousy B.S. in premed biology.

Yes, it is highly unlikely for DNA to get damaged and the cell survive. But remember it only takes one cell to form a deadly cancer. (paranoid) yes I know, but I prefer to think of myself as "aware".

Dust gets in our lungs all the time, every day, but dust doesn't have rasor sharp edges. Does burnt peices of glass? Well, it just might. considering how you make capilary tubes from glass tubing. glass streatches and breaks forming sharp, tappered edges.

And what about smokers? their cillia are damaged and they often have seriouse problems removing forieng particles, because the cillia are burnt and covered in tar. That is one of the reasons long time habitual smokers are hacking up stuff all the time.

asbestos stays in the lungs because it forms little hooks that burrow into your flesh, and it is extreamly difficult for cillia to remove this stuff. Does glass form these litle hooks? good question.

I still am not ever going to use plain fiberglass. I'll use cotton wicks again before I ever use plain fiberglass. Even if the the risks from fiberglass wicks are small, is it worth it just to save a few bucks?

I do feel a little better hearing a specialist speak on the matter, seeing as I have been exposed to a little burning fiberglass a few times. I will take the safer route though. Better safe than sorry (or dead).


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:Hey Dom, I have seen cloning proceedures where they stick a "giant" needle into the cell to remove and insert dna. The cells can survive this treatment. Sure, soemties they don't. And I am sure the extracellular conditions must be close to ideal, (osmotic presure, etc) otherwise the cell will just explode everywhere whenit is punctured. Still, it is possible, howeer unlikely.

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:With the needle aren't they penetrating ovum cells or possibly blastula's? which are considerably larger then 'normal cells'

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road

Total posts: 15965
Posted:You all sure do talk pretty.....

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:quote:Originally posted by santananew:

Dust gets in our lungs all the time, every day, but dust doesn't have rasor sharp edges. Does burnt peices of glass? Well, it just might. considering how you make capilary tubes from glass tubing. glass streatches and breaks forming sharp, tappered edges.

asbestos stays in the lungs because it forms little hooks that burrow into your flesh, and it is extreamly difficult for cillia to remove this stuff. Does glass form these litle hooks? good question.I agree 100% about only using cotton kevlar wicks but where did this idea come from that fiberglass has to be burnt to release small particles of glass into the air.Why do you think they abate schools and buildings that have asbestos floor tiling? Even though it is bonded as tightly as it is it can still release asbestos into the air.Just touching a piece of fiberglass wick can release fiberglass particles into the air.May not be many but it is still possible.

I also get the feeling some of you missed the link I posted on the previous page. Fiberglass bad

Santana I understand your concern because fiberglass is some evil stuff but I was only trying to illustrate the point that people work with fiberglass everyday (and respirators can only keep out so much) and don't develop said problems in that short of a time frame.Most every guy I have ever worked with and myself as well can not wait for them to ban that sh!t.My actual motive was just to keep everyone from running out to the store and wrapping their house in plastic.

BTW picture in your head the most diesel fishing hook you have ever seen and then think of it particle sized and that is an asbestos fiber.Part of the reason it has been banned was because asbestos fibers,when attached to your lungs,are irremovable.Here's another link in case you missed it Asbestosis.

Fiberglass does form hooks but not nearly in the way that asbestos does and with time your lungs can remove most of the fibers.Now I'm not saying to go huff some fiberglass but if you breathe in a little of it you probably have a one in 10 million chance of something like this happening to you.


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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:So what're the odds I could get some sort of cool mutant power from using fiberglass wicking?

What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Page: 12

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