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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:yay! A thread on Anti-Spin weaves!

So I was just thinking about them. Simian can probably think better about them, but I was bored so I posted this.

(I think) the default anti-spin weave is the anti-spinised equivalent of doing constantly translated isolations. ie: you're just isolating in one direction in front of you, doing the normal one bit iso, and constantly translating the staffs. (changing the ends that are 'together')

Sometimes my anti-spin weave has a few extra beats in it, as if you were folding the staffs under your arms in the 'non-anti-spin' version of the weave.

So after a comment by ben, I thought about the other obvious variations on anti-spinning isolations:

Anti-spinning the 'giant' staff created by the isolation. (very difficult, unless you have small sticks / huge arms.)

Anti-spinning just one of the staffs and getting the other to follow it. (Kinda weird feeling, not sure if it's visually effective yet.)

Moving the center of the isolation in a circle and anti-spinning on that.

Anti-spinning both of them and just having a quarter / half rotation of isolation in the 'middle' of the movement.

oh wait, I think the caffiene just ran out.

Questions: What about butterfly?


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:<appears out of the wings in an evil villian disguise>

what's that you say simian? We should call all this weird pattern stuff wibbling?

wink


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Aaaaaaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhh Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!11!1oneone!!!!



*leaps out of nearby window*


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:the problem is that your long description doesn't really cut it either monkey...



taking just the circle-circle relationship we have this:



"patterns that are produced by following a point rotating on the circumference of a circle, the centre of which is rotating about the circumference of another circle"



this is called 'epicyclic motion' and was invented by ptolomy to describe the retrograde motions of the objects in the night sky - he was a bit of a geek you see but i'm sure we can all relate.

we call these compound circle patterns because that's what nick called them and that's exactly what they are - hence, the name makes loads of sense.



there is then the special case of epicyclic patterns where the relative rotations of the two circles are opposite to each other - this is the technique that we currently refer to as 'antispin'.



so, we are now at a point where we are particularly interested in those antispin patterns that are not composed of two separate circles but rather a circle that moves on a path that can be any pattern at all.



we have three choices:

1. an addendum to 'antispin', which implies that the motions made with our hands are something other than circles (irregular antispin?)

2. extend the concept of antispin to encompass this wider definition

3. make up a cool new word that sits above antispin but below compund patterns in the hierarchy of terms



i would say just go for number two (with a little number one if its really required).





having said that, i think the word 'retrograde' rocks biggrin



if we have to use yet another word to describe these patterns, that's the one i like.



it not only sounds cool but it actually has something vaguely to do with what's going on in the patterns.



"that's some sh!thot retrograde spinning you got going on there"



"that's a retrograde pattern i've never seen before - what are the component patterns?"





epicyclic -> opposite rotation epicyclic -> non circular epicyclic



compound pattterns -> antispin -> retrograde





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:incidentally, i love the sneaky little double sided triangle pattern you threw in here:

Non-Https Image Link


it's proper wierd.

you can really mess about with it's dimensions to produce a bunch of different pattern versions.

i think my favourite being the one that looks like a giant sweetie
(positioning the horizontal staff from the "low" section above the middle of the pattern, and the horizontal staff from the "high" section below the middle of the pattern)

and of course, there's no reason to stick to symmetry when messing with the patterns.

well, apart from aesthetics, but who really cares about them anyway? rolleyes


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:I like the word exemplar, which has roots in the latin word exemplum which means 'pattern'. plus from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exemplar,
it's also a second meaning as a standard problem to be solved... ubblol which is really what anti-spin is...

unfortunately, I couldn't really imagine myself saying it in real life.

Nor with retrograde, though it does sound cool. (cos some of these patterns are isolation based, not anti-spin based.) Unless you just tell the ones that don't fit in to just [censored] off.. biggrin


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:oooh, i found another cool word that describes a bunch of these patterns, including the curvy diamond:



hypocycloid cool



anyone know where on the web i can find one of those cool java-based hypocycloid generators...?





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted: Written by: coleman

we have three choices:

1. an addendum to 'antispin', which implies that the motions made with our hands are something other than circles (irregular antispin?)

2. extend the concept of antispin to encompass this wider definition

3. make up a cool new word that sits above antispin but below compund patterns in the hierarchy of terms





1 = bad. I want to encompass patterns which look mental and odd, but not necessarily limited to antispin. For example - but not limited to this - in some of the staff stuff i'm playing with, the pattern shifts from spin to anti at different points of the pattern.



2 = bad bad bad. see above. antispin has an excellent meaningful definition. lets not bastardize it.



3 = hmmm, better but... i want a word of a different order, not in that hierarchy at all.



"a circle that moves on a path that can be any pattern at all"



well... ok, but the circle can change direction too. And that definition could describe any poi move at all shrug



i was talking about a weakly-defined term to describe the

school of thought / aesthetic impression / motivation / etcetera

behind all this anti-spinny, super-spinny, retrograde, second-order business.



Having said all that - Retrograde sounds cooool.



but why retrograde? confused


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:hands follow circle, staffs tries to make a square...


Non-Https Image Link


naturally you could move your hand in a circle and get the staff to follow an expanded circle.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Hypocycloids rule! smile That was the best google image search ever.

i want to spin this:

Non-Https Image Link


and i'm so using that name now, and don't care whether anyone else ever does biggrin


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:You guys are funny ubblol

Love is the law.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:why retrograde monkey?



because to you, as the spinner, the motion of the wicks exhibits a retrograde motion (in the classic ptolemaic sense) smile




Non-Https Image Link






'hypocycloid' (which is a pattern produced by epicyclic motion) as cool sounding as it is, is specific to circle-circle relationships (and so is 'hypotrochoid', before you go suggesting that one too!).



i feel your want for more semantics though - there just isn't enough of it on hop is there frown



to be honest though simian, i reckon your definition of "a circle that moves on a path that can be any pattern at all" is just another way of saying "spinning" ubblol





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:retrograde - oh i seeeeee. nice term. But hypocycloid so wins.



retrograde doesn't sound Giant Robot-ish enough you see.



 Written by: coleman

to be honest though simian, i reckon your definition of "a circle that moves on a path that can be any pattern at all" is just another way of saying "spinning"





erm... it wasn't my definition. it was yours. and that was the point i was making.



so nerrr tongue



go read my post again for my definition. Its in the bit where i stop simply rambling, and actually start cross-country running instead.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:and the reason i want this



"weakly-defined term to describe the

school of thought / aesthetic impression / motivation / etcetera

behind all this anti-spinny, super-spinny, retrograde, second-order business"



isn't just to add terminology, but to preserve the stuff we have from being bastardized.

If we have a ready-bastardized term, then we can use that any time we feel like being a bit vague, innit?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:hmm, actually...

i'm going off "hypocycloid" and really coming round to "bastardized" now...

Check my bastardized windmill!

oh yeah. i like it...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: coleman


"that's some sh!thot retrograde spinning you got going on there"

"that's a retrograde pattern i've never seen before - what are the component patterns?"




I'm voting for calling them weird patterns...

"that's some sh!thot weird pattern spinning you got going on there"

"that's a weird pattern i've never seen before - what are the component patterns?"

biggrin

Roulettes rock my world!


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: simian



erm... it wasn't my definition. it was yours. and that was the point i was making.





redface



oops, so it was ubblol



your original definition only mentioned one centre of rotation though so it was kinda limited to full-arm, elbow, wrist and isolated circles.



so nerr tongue



i found hypocycloid anyway so i guess i should just be chuffed that i've now defined more names for staff spinning than i have poi biggrin





but really, 'compound pattern' quite blatently covers all this stuff and has been in use for ages shrug





is anyone else here starting to get the feeling that simian is an escapee from that room filled with infinite monkeys that were hired a few years back to sit at a typewriter and type out random stuff until one of them came up with the complete works of shakespeare...? umm





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:"what's that bizarre triangle anti-spin windmill thing that you isolate half way through thing called?"

"it's a weird pattern."

weird pattern for teh win!


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: coleman


'hypocycloid' (which is a pattern produced by epicyclic motion) as cool sounding as it is, is specific to circle-circle relationships (and so is 'hypotrochoid', before you go suggesting that one too!).


oh come now cole dont be all discriminatary like .... straight lines are just radially challenged or "big boned" with their radii being of the infinite variety

sweet job with the pics meg its stopped the text from making my brain hemorrhage smile has anyone tried these patterns with long doubles?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted: Written by: ben-ja-men

has anyone tried these patterns with long doubles?



What's your definition of long? smile

When you get beyond the four point patterns, they start getting a bit big for 5foot doubles. For me anyway...

I worked out 4 point "cross wick" antispin weave with four footers, which are probably the same size to me as five foots are to you ben biggrin

And straight lines can be made with circle-circle relationships anyhoo...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mo-seph
mo-seph

enthusiast
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Member Since: 24th Feb 2004
Total posts: 524
Posted:Personally, I'd call anything where you artificially fix the point of rotation of a body to a point or curve (whether it's on that body or not) isolation. It seems like it's the only way to make it mean all the things people make it mean.

You could have "non-centroidal" (centre of rotation doesn't go through centre of mass). I guess off center would work, but that would probably make people change their grips.

"Mime", because you're pretending things work with different physical laws than they really do, for "artistic" effect.

"non-concentric"

poly(centered|circular)


monkeys ate my brain

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link




ubbrollsmile ubbrollsmile ubbrollsmile ubbrollsmile ubbrollsmile ubbrollsmile ubbrollsmile ubbrollsmile


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:Even flowers have names.



Rose for mcp.



lighting,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:ahh, i love geometric spinning biggrin



ladies and gentlemen, may i introduce...



the trammel of archimedes:




Non-Https Image Link




and after discovering this, i realised something mo-seph mentioned up there leads to complete and utter crazyness:



start mixing off centre grips with the hand patterns that we've already discovered ubbloco ubblol ubblol ubbloco





cole. x



p.s. for those that care - roses are the 'pedals' of hypocycloids smile

if you're as geeky as me, you can investigate that (including the ramifications of an off centre grip) for yourself here.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:So who's going to design the simulator then?

Love is the law.

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:trammel of archimedes, or hands move in a cross.

first off weird thing, shrunk cross anti-spin:


Non-Https Image Link


trammel:


Non-Https Image Link



doubled up...



Non-Https Image Link


with hands:


Non-Https Image Link



with wicks;


Non-Https Image Link



expanded:


Non-Https Image Link



doubled up:


Non-Https Image Link



with hands:



Non-Https Image Link



with wicks:



Non-Https Image Link



at some point I really will get around to drawing pictures of anti-spin weaves... honest gov'nor


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted: Written by: megasaurus

at some point I really will get around to drawing pictures of anti-spin weaves... honest gov'nor



hmmmmm, well you could weave pretty much any of these patterns, can'tcha?

My normal 3beat 4point cross-wick antispin weaves should look like this:

Non-Https Image Link

(but actually tend to look more like this)

But with a little ( wink ) practice i could emphasize different parts, or change hand position in certain bits, and end up with... erm... most of the stuff you've posted.

Definitely not the stuff you'd have to be twelve foot tall to spin. I'm not that tall. Not even slightly.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:looks like your sticks are too short for your arms and you're spinning more like:


Non-Https Image Link



which is cool.

Some weaves do weird things and aren't exactly in time or move out to other patterns and then back into weaves, so I'd like to get an idea of how they look, for purely my own benefit...


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:*disclaimer: i can't do double staff weaves yet*

your hands have to move past each other in a weave so would a perfectly isolated doubles antispin cross weave would not require your hands (or bits of your stick) to pass through each other?

hence why your one looks like it does in that absolutely amazing bit of photography you linked to monkus.

*very much looking forward to being proved completely wrong*

smile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Meg - I thought my arms were too short for the sticks at certain parts of the pattern, particular crossed arm horizontal bits.
Maybe the ends were overlapping, rather than being extended. Or quite possible being extended at certain points and then overlapping when my arms crossed.
The photo will only be one bit of the weave pattern (looks like a pretty awesome "single circle" photo captured by the magic Mr Coleman smile ) So hmm... probably its at an extended bit, because my arms are uncrossed in that funky archery type position that antispin weaves put you into.

Cole - umm no. I'm pretty sure it is possible. But i really can't explain why, cause I'm not sure why you think it isn't... confused2


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:well maybe you are doing it slightly out of phase... so that they're pointing differently... or maybe you are indeed overlapping rather than extending. Only you can say! You were doing it.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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