Written by: ado-p
But after the way NYC has jumped down the throat of just about everyone who doesnt have a 'Masters', I dont want to anymore. I imagine there are others who feel the same.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Love is the law.
Written by: nyc
i have read the article and i am disappointed by it.
i do not have the inclination to read the one book on the wider subject that is linked to here as i have read countless others and formed my opinions from those and my direct experiences formed over the past decade and a half of operating within the very system being discussed here.
i have stated my opinions on the article and i believe that there are many great things about the education system and many problems within it too.
Written by: meg
i don't care what you think about the article at all - i'm going to centre my debate around the book that the article was a bad reference to.
i have read the first three chapters of that one book on the subject of the corruption of the educational system in the u.s. and from that vast bank of knowledge, i can safely conclude that you are being over cynical and unfairly dismissive nyc.
until you read this one specific book i linked to you must accept that you don't have a rounded enough view of the subject and thus accept that your opinions equate to dirt.
my arguments are indisputable.
i have spoken.
bow before me.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
Written by: coleman
words in my mouth!Written by: meg
i don't care what you think about the article at all - i'm going to centre my debate around the book that the article was a bad reference to.
i have read the first three chapters of that one book on the subject of the corruption of the educational system in the u.s. and from that vast bank of knowledge, i can safely conclude that you are being over cynical and unfairly dismissive nyc.
until you read this one specific book i linked to you must accept that you don't have a rounded enough view of the subject and thus accept that your opinions equate to dirt.
my arguments are indisputable.
i have spoken.
bow before me.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
Written by: mcp
I don't need the first three chapters of the book to conclude: "i can safely conclude that you are being over cynical and unfairly dismissive nyc." anybody can conclude that when somebody says they aren't going to read something for reason.
..
I don't feel like I can read the later chapters actually. I feel terrorised enough by the information in it already.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Written by: mcp
Why are you so docile when you give up your child to a government agent called a schoolteacher?
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
Written by: coleman
"Why are you so docile when you give up your child to a government agent called a schoolteacher?"
this sentence makes me a little angry - he's starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist, labelling all schoolteachers as faceless government agents working to turn your kid into a quivering automaton?
please, does he really believe there are no good teachers?
or that the system is so restrictive that it turns even a teacher with the best intentions into another cog in the government's suppression machine?
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Written by: NYC
If you came and saw what I actually do in my classroom you'd think I was the calmest, most modest, optimistic person in the world. Actually, It'd probably freak most of you out.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Written by: mcp
I'm not the center of the universe in everybodies elses eyes,
"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock
Written by: mcp
"one of the major things that children turning into adults need to learn is that they are not the most important person in the world to anyone but themselves."
that's pretty sad cole. a) why? b) are you a child psychologist? c) do you not think they would learn that in our society anyway? Without having it hammered into them?
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Written by: meg
teach them something they do see value in. Or change society to reflect better values onto the kids. Whichever will take longer.
Written by: meg
"one of the major things that children turning into adults need to learn is that they are not the most important person in the world to anyone but themselves."
that's pretty sad cole. a) why? b) are you a child psychologist? c) do you not think they would learn that in our society anyway? Without having it hammered into them?
Written by: meg
who cares what the child does in a flawed system? I don't. I'd rather fix the system. Or destroy it, whatever has a better outcome for the children.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
Written by: coleman
i'm arguing against the assertion that the 'story' you quoted is a good example of the system being flawed.
i'm arguing that giving an example of a teacher using an inappropriate method to admonish a child then following up with some pure conjecture to claim that it will destroy the child's chances of being a decent person in later life and THEN claiming that the original actions of the teacher are the result of a corrupt system rather than the teacher's individual choice is bullsh!t.
i was arguiug against sensationalism and am arguing for a balanced view of what is going on in u.s. schools.
Written by: coleman
"You can't teach somebody who doesn't want to learn. Why bother?"
and that's why you're not a teacher
Written by: coleman
children are not adults and as such do not have the capcity to make adult decisions - that's what makes them kids.
they do not have fully developed reason centres and are a sea of swirling hormones which doesn't help matters at all - they are not yet capable of making fully informed decisions about something as huge as whether or not they wish to be educated.
Written by: coleman
cutting nose, spiting face - kids are great at it and they often don't pay heed to the damage they are doing to themselves in such an interaction.
Written by: colemanWritten by: meg
teach them something they do see value in. Or change society to reflect better values onto the kids. Whichever will take longer.
bearing the above example in mind, its clear that it is nowhere near as simple as you wish to make it seem.
Written by: colemanWritten by: meg
"one of the major things that children turning into adults need to learn is that they are not the most important person in the world to anyone but themselves."
that's pretty sad cole. a) why? b) are you a child psychologist? c) do you not think they would learn that in our society anyway? Without having it hammered into them?
i don't think its sad at all.
a) because its the truth - here's a layperson-level look at some basic child behavioural patterns: https://www.dltk-kids.com/articles/behaviour.htm
b) no, but i don't need to be a professional to have an opinion on a subject meg - i admit that i have a pretty limited knowledge of child psychology, but it doesn't mean i can't talk about what i do know.
c) possibly, but only to an extent and only if they are exposed to a society that holds such values. if children learnt the rules of compassion and considerate social interaction through osmosis by simply existing in a society, then all kids would be perfectly polite, well-mannered and the problem wouldn't arise in the first place. besides, if you think the american school system is corrupt beyond redemption, i don't even want to think about your opinion on american society at large...
Written by: coleman
the fact that i have heard young kids come back from school having learnt phrases such as 'caring and sharing' and hearing them tell me about why these are good things, shows me that they do not just 'learn that in our society'.
maybe they would eventually, but then again, maybe they wouldn't and the world would be filled with selfish, socially inept idiots
Written by: colemanWritten by: meg
who cares what the child does in a flawed system? I don't. I'd rather fix the system. Or destroy it, whatever has a better outcome for the children.
care to offer us some clues as to how you might do either of those things then?
do you have a better system in mind for example?
denouncing an education system is fine if you have some idea of a better solution.
Written by: coleman
just saying "it does no good - destroy it" is a reactionary/knee-jerk 'solution' that would do more harm than good - a complete lack of an education system would be infintely more detrimental to children.
Written by: coleman
the system may be flawed and there may have been some questionable aims and methods suggested at times in its history but american schools are not a complete failure by any means.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Written by: mcp
Though I'm pretty bored of cynicism myself, I hope it's still working for you.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
Written by: colemanWritten by: mcp
Though I'm pretty bored of cynicism myself, I hope it's still working for you.
for someone who's bored of cynicism, you're doing a damn good job of presenting a totally cynical take on the wider issue meg
Written by: coleman
so, you think then that the school system is some evil machine that does more bad than good and deserves to be destroyed?
i strongly disagree.
Written by: coleman
you have provided little or no rational arguments - you have simply stated outrageous and polarised claims of the state of the system - and repeatedly quoting or paraphrasing the one book on the subject that you have read just half of, that is in essence one man's opinion, is not a substitute for good debate.
Written by: coleman
do you really believe that abolishing schools and relying on parents and society at large to educate children will work?
Written by: coleman
i live in a country where there have been over 7000 anti social behaviour orders issued in the last 6 years - 43% of which were issued to minors.
Written by: coleman
"close all the schools and let the children entertain themselves and roam free!"
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Written by: coleman
do you really believe that abolishing schools and relying on parents and society at large to educate children will work?
i live in a country where there have been over 7000 anti social behaviour orders issued in the last 6 years - 43% of which were issued to minors.
"close all the schools and let the children entertain themselves and roam free!"
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
Written by: megWritten by: coleman
do you really believe that abolishing schools and relying on parents and society at large to educate children will work?
so tell me why it won't.
Written by: megWritten by: coleman
"close all the schools and let the children entertain themselves and roam free!"
and yours is: keep going the way we are, cos nobody can think of anything better, and it's not the worst it could possible be, just really bad.
Written by: meg
these are minors that are in school are they? Learning to share and care? oh no wait, they're probably playing 'truant' from school right? Oh now I get it, you're saying that because kids run away from school and commit crimes, we should make sure they stay in those schools and get better at forcing them to be good. Education seems to create more crime, cos we have more schools now than before and more youth crime... Why aren't they doing their homework? Where do they get the time to commit all this crime?
Written by: meg
hell lets even ban any talk of a different approach by being overly negative to the very idea that something could be wrong with the system the way it is. Then we can use the "you don't have anything better argument" when they least expect it! Woooo!
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
Written by: mcpWritten by: coleman
i'm arguing against the assertion that the 'story' you quoted is a good example of the system being flawed.
i'm arguing that giving an example of a teacher using an inappropriate method to admonish a child then following up with some pure conjecture to claim that it will destroy the child's chances of being a decent person in later life and THEN claiming that the original actions of the teacher are the result of a corrupt system rather than the teacher's individual choice is bullsh!t.
i was arguiug against sensationalism and am arguing for a balanced view of what is going on in u.s. schools.
I know it's hopeless. But I don't care about a balanced view. I care about each child that goes through the system. And if there was even one like bianca, I would be furious. Just like if only one kid got shot at dunblain, I would be furious.
Plus it's not just us schools he's talking about. Every other sentence in the early part of the book is about copying the school system in britain germany france japan or india. So it's not just them, it's everybody.Written by: coleman
"You can't teach somebody who doesn't want to learn. Why bother?"
and that's why you're not a teacher
still doesn't make it any less true.Written by: coleman
children are not adults and as such do not have the capcity to make adult decisions - that's what makes them kids.
they do not have fully developed reason centres and are a sea of swirling hormones which doesn't help matters at all - they are not yet capable of making fully informed decisions about something as huge as whether or not they wish to be educated.
thou adults are most certainly able to make a fully informed decision about forcing them to be educated. Well apart from me, cos I don't have any say in it, and nobody in the world is fully informed.
Yes indeed that is what makes them kids. Except childhood used to finish around 14 before schools were invented. But of course, everybody wants to have a longer childhood right? So they can spend more time stuck in a educational prison. I remember first going to school, and after a while wondering when i would get to play outside in the daytime again? Well apart from the school holidays, it was when I decided that durham wasn't the university for me and prematurely left. Though of course I learned so much more about the world than just a-level maths, which I could have taught myself in a month, not two years. I learned all about the real world, oh no wait, I wasn't allowed in that world.
so when you say they can't make informed decisions, yeah they can't until about 8-10 maybe. After that they're kept uninformed. but that was partially a diatribe against other stuff, I could go into.Written by: coleman
cutting nose, spiting face - kids are great at it and they often don't pay heed to the damage they are doing to themselves in such an interaction.
yup, and putting them in random age based groupings really helps that behaviour magnify.
Written by: colemanWritten by: meg
teach them something they do see value in. Or change society to reflect better values onto the kids. Whichever will take longer.
bearing the above example in mind, its clear that it is nowhere near as simple as you wish to make it seem.
of course not. I really think you need to change the roots of our society. And I think those roots are created by the 'education' we recieve at school. Or at the very least moulded.Written by: colemanWritten by: meg
"one of the major things that children turning into adults need to learn is that they are not the most important person in the world to anyone but themselves."
that's pretty sad cole. a) why? b) are you a child psychologist? c) do you not think they would learn that in our society anyway? Without having it hammered into them?
i don't think its sad at all.
a) because its the truth - here's a layperson-level look at some basic child behavioural patterns: https://www.dltk-kids.com/articles/behaviour.htm
b) no, but i don't need to be a professional to have an opinion on a subject meg - i admit that i have a pretty limited knowledge of child psychology, but it doesn't mean i can't talk about what i do know.
c) possibly, but only to an extent and only if they are exposed to a society that holds such values. if children learnt the rules of compassion and considerate social interaction through osmosis by simply existing in a society, then all kids would be perfectly polite, well-mannered and the problem wouldn't arise in the first place. besides, if you think the american school system is corrupt beyond redemption, i don't even want to think about your opinion on american society at large...
a) that link is about 6 year olds cole. After another 12 years of life I think they might 'get' it. Plus it seems to have been a study based on kids in school or at least referencing their behaviour while there. I though we were talking about actual child psychology, not child psycholody in a prison.
b) Yeah I was doing an NYC.
c) Yeah, until it did once, and then society would get worse and worse, just like it is doing. But oh wait, it didn't start out perfect anyway, oh well!
I thought about american society at large and then it struck me: I probably have better literacy and maths skills than the president of america.Written by: coleman
the fact that i have heard young kids come back from school having learnt phrases such as 'caring and sharing' and hearing them tell me about why these are good things, shows me that they do not just 'learn that in our society'.
maybe they would eventually, but then again, maybe they wouldn't and the world would be filled with selfish, socially inept idiots
really they learned that? They came back having learned a catchphrase and then parroted some blurb the teacher told them? sounds brilliant cole. Maybe after another 10 years of that they won't be able to think original thoughts and be dependent on heat magazine for their opinions. [super harsh I know, and I apologise] It just came across as a nightmare senario out of 1984.Written by: colemanWritten by: meg
who cares what the child does in a flawed system? I don't. I'd rather fix the system. Or destroy it, whatever has a better outcome for the children.
care to offer us some clues as to how you might do either of those things then?
do you have a better system in mind for example?
denouncing an education system is fine if you have some idea of a better solution.
Yeah I'm sure. Destroying something bad is much much worse than letting something bad continue on, since we don't have a better solution. I'm sure all those kids are thanking you for that attitude right now. No please don't destroy our crap education system! We don't want to go play outside and learn about things that interest us! We really want to continue the system and get a-levels and go to university just like our older brothers and sisters who have to go in order to get high paid jobs that aren't secure for the rest of their lifes. I'm sure the crisis of no more school won't provoke a sudden glut of solutions or at least force us to life in interesting times. After all, we wouldn't want any change to happen in our society, and certianly not sudden change, that's the worst kind.Written by: coleman
just saying "it does no good - destroy it" is a reactionary/knee-jerk 'solution' that would do more harm than good - a complete lack of an education system would be infintely more detrimental to children.
Because the only way to get an education is to go to school. You can't learn anything outside of it, especially if you're a child. THE ONLY WAY. There is no education outside of school. NONE. In fact not only is there no outside of school, but if you didn't go to a school you would be unable to learn and be totally ignorant, you wouldn't know ANYTHING.
is that what your saying cole? Cos that's what I'm hearing.
And why would it be detrimental? I could have learnt all I learnt at school in about a year at the age of 18. If I hadn't just have been through 14 years of learning and utter boredom becoming associated in my mind.
Well maybe not reading and writing, but y'know some people come out of schools nowadays not being able to do that.Written by: coleman
the system may be flawed and there may have been some questionable aims and methods suggested at times in its history but american schools are not a complete failure by any means.
america used to not have schools. And they still managed fine. HOW CAN THAT BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE??? and they had greater literacy rates than they do now. "and you don't want to know what literacy meant back then, you really don't."
But y'know the past is no guide for the future. I mean if we looked to the past to guide us, we'd gooooo alll oooover the place!
So why are schools alloted into age groups? Will kids of different ages learning the same thing destroy their tribal peer bonding?
Do kids have to learn things at a certain age or the world will crumble?
Do classes have to exist? Do you have to learn just one subject for one class?
Can kids learn just one subject till they feel they've learned enough of that subject?
Can they learn till they're done, and not till the bell rings?
Can they learn outside?
Can they just spend they're time reading? Will they learnt things from books without being forced to skim it by writing a report on it?
will the world come up with a solution to the PROBLEM of grading students in a heirachy so that they can decide which ones to let into university without a bunch of capital letters to tell them their QUALITY?
OH MY GOD HOW WILL WE SURVIVE THESE TURMOILS?!?!?!?!?!?
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Written by: mcpWritten by: coleman
"You can't teach somebody who doesn't want to learn. Why bother?"
and that's why you're not a teacher
still doesn't make it any less true.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Written by: NYC
Is that the radical kind of stuff you're looking to burn down the schools to create? Because it's been done and it's being done.
monkeys ate my brain
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