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Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:I'm sorry, but if the Palestinians were under the Hamas Muslim goverment they want, they'd be a whole lot more oppressed than they are right now.

The Palistinian People do deserve better, I agree:

http://standwithuscampus.com/flyers/arabapartheid2.pdf
br>
YellFire, can I ask you, have you ever lived in Israel? For that matter, have you ever lived in Palestine, Gaza, West Bank or Lebanon? Have you ever been confronted by a group of Asian Men because you're a dirty Jew and a filthy Zionist Whore?

Have you ever met these people who you so defend? I can promise you that HizBoAllah (which is Arabic for G-d is with the Martyr) are just as keen to get rid of anything that isn't Muslim or ShariahLaw based and if they ever do succeed in destroying Israel, then they'd just as soon start on the West.

You need to go and spend some time in these places. I am not saying Israel is infallible, it has stupid rules and sometimes stupid leaders just like everywhere else, but Israel is justified in tyring to defend itself against the countless attacks from the Arab World, which is exactly what is doing.


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

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Location: Aotearoa (NZ)

Total posts: 625
Posted: Written by:

Israel is justified in tyring to defend itself against the countless attacks from the Arab World, which is exactly what is doing.



I agree that it is justified to protect itself. But its not, what it is doing is called "war crimes". Im not going to bother to even try to debate this rationally, because obviously the Americans here are one eyed and are not open to rational discussion. frown

Not being emotionally envolved in this war, i like to think i can see it with a clean view. I mean i support neither side. From where i see it, its just pointless.

[qoute]
Why does Israeli aggression and violence on (innocent Lebanese) civilians breed more terror(ists) and criticism all over, whilst Hizbullahs (partly Lebanese) and Hammas terror on (innocent Israeli) civilians seems to result in compassion and sympathy?



Because Israel has far superior fire power, sat technology (american support) drones, planes etc IMO they should have the responsibility to lead the correct way to peace (because if you look at the stats Isarel has taken more heads) And the amount of rockets fired on each side is disproportinate. Being in the "winning" position makes them the canditates to stop the mindless slaughter.

Also when you kill that many civillians, some family will survive, and will want instant revenge..
I dont think the Hammas have any support for blasting anyone. (what makes you think that?) i believe its in their best intrests to call for peace also.

 Written by:


Second I would like to ask you, what YOU think (except displacing the entire nation of Israel) would help to mediate and solve the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians?



People have to wake up and take a look from the other side of it for there to be peace. People have to really want peace and make concice efforts toward it.

I have questons (Why do the Americans here and afew others seem to blieve that the war will end and there will be peace if you kill even MORE people?)

Thats the problem, peoples attitudes need to change, it seems to me as though a doctor and a teacher here both seem to believe that the BEST way to end this war is to kill more and more people and maybe more if the first killing didnt work. After thousands of years of killing YOU'D THINK they would realise ITS NOT WORKING!

All i see the root cause is that you have to stop the killing because you kill chlidrens parents (or family), then they grow up and join the cause and its an endless cycle. Stop the killing now and there will be less reasons for them to join in the future. Make friends with them! Be prepaired to compromise. (Both sides) and give a little. (huge ask i know)

A problem i see is the people in control are like little chlidren bickering, not prepaired to give anything. And certainly not trying to gain peace. Replace the word <peace> with: <revenge> <murder> or <genocide>


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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York

Total posts: 3354
Posted: Written by:



I agree that it is justified to protect itself. But its not, what it is doing is called "war crimes". Im not going to bother to even try to debate this rationally, because obviously the Americans here are one eyed and are not open to rational discussion. frown



who hasn't been open to rational discussion? as far as i can tell this discourse has been done in a very rational manner. your statement shows nothing but prejudice and closemindedness

 Written by:


I dont think the Hammas have any support for blasting anyone. (what makes you think that?) i believe its in their best intrests to call for peace also.



the reports of people supporting Hezbollah and Hamas actively? its no surprise that suicide bombers' famillies are financially compensated when one of these 'martyrs' kills himself

 Written by:


All i see the root cause is that you have to stop the killing because you kill chlidrens parents (or family), then they grow up and join the cause and its an endless cycle. Stop the killing now and there will be less reasons for them to join in the future. Make friends with them! Be prepaired to compromise. (Both sides) and give a little. (huge ask i know)

A problem i see is the people in control are like little chlidren bickering, not prepaired to give anything.



Israel had given up territory. A lot of territory. And Islamic radicals still insist on destroying Israel.

and out of interest:

BBC article

see:
 Written by: BBC article


Another woman told me that even though they were refugees, Hezbollah was giving them everything they needed. The government had limited means, so Hezbollah was helping them, she said.

This is how Hezbollah guarantees unwavering loyalty and popular support - by providing for the Shia community.

The central government has been weak here for decades so it is easy for Hezbollah to step in.

But there is also a sense that Hezbollah monopolises the Shia and keeps the government at bay with its schools, hospitals and women's associations.

And with its substantial arsenal of weapons, many Lebanese see the group as a state within a state.



kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Dragon7



Im not going to bother to even try to debate this rationally, because obviously the Americans here are one eyed and are not open to rational discussion. frown







YAY! More Anti-American hatred and bigotry! Gosh I love HoP!



ubblol



[Sorry, if you can't tell the difference between Patriarch and Mike then you really are just judging people by their avatar.]


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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

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Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:" you can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb the world to Peace..." Micheal Franti

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: NYC


 Written by: Dragon7


Im not going to bother to even try to debate this rationally, because obviously the Americans here are one eyed and are not open to rational discussion. frown




Obviously, Dragon7, you are not willing to engage in rational discussion. At least not with a statement like this.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:I'm not one eyed, and i'm certainly not American.

If you have no emotional interest, then where are you getting your information from? News channels, expecially the BBC can be extremely biased.

Unless, you've been and seen it, you have no right to comment on Israels 'war crimes'.

I would have thought deliberately placing ammunition factories next to schools and shooting from hospitals, so that Israel has no other place to target is a war crime?

The Middle East conflict is difficult to solve, but it is among the simplest conflicts in history to understand.

The Arab and other Muslim enemies of Israel (for the easily confused, this does not mean every Arab or every Muslim) want Israel destroyed. That is why there is a Middle East conflict. Everything else is commentary.

Those who deny this and ascribe the conflict to other reasons, such as "Israeli occupation," "Jewish settlements," a "cycle of violence," "the Zionist lobby" and the like, do so despite the fact that Israel's enemies regularly announce the reason for the conflict. The Iranian regime, Hizbollah, Hamas and the Palestinians in their public opinion polls, in their anti-Semitic school curricula and media, in their election of Hamas, in their support for terror against Israeli civilians in pre-1967 borders as well as their Muslim supporters around the world, all want the Jewish state annihilated.

In 1947-48, the Arab states tried to destroy the tiny Jewish state formed by the United Nations partition plan. In 1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan tried to destroy Israel in what became known as the Six-Day War. All of this took place before Israel occupied one millimeter of Palestinian land and before there was a single Jewish settler in the West Bank.

Two months after the Six-Day War of June 5-10, 1967, the Arab countries convened in Khartoum, Sudan, and announced on Sept. 1, 1967, their famous "Three NOs" to Israel: "No peace, No recognition, No negotiations."

Six years later, in 1973, Egypt invaded the Israeli-held Sinai Peninsula, a war that ended in a boost in Egyptian morale from its initially successful surprise attack. Though nearly all of the Sinai remained in Israel's hands, the boost in Egyptian self-confidence enabled Egypt's visionary president, Anwar Sadat, four years later (November 1977), to do the unimaginable for an Arab leader: He visited Israel and addressed its parliament in Jerusalem. As a result, in 1978, Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty in return for which Israel gave all of the oil-rich Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt.

Three years later, in 1981, Sadat was assassinated by Egyptian Muslims, a killing welcomed by most Arabs, including the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization). Why welcomed? Because Sadat had done the unforgivable recognized Israel and made peace with it.

The lesson that Palestinians should have learned from the Israeli-Egyptian peace agreement was that if you make peace with Israel, you will not only get peace in return, you will also get all or nearly all of your land back. That is how much Israelis ache for peace.

Think about Israel for one moment: Israel is one of the most advanced countries on earth in terms of culture (most books published, translated from other languages and read per capita; most orchestras per capita, etc.); major advances in medicine; technological breakthroughs; and decency as a society, as exemplified by its treatment of its women, gays and even its large Arab minority (particularly remarkable in light of the widespread Arab and Muslim anti-Semitism and desire to annihilate Israel). This is hardly a picture of some bloodthirsty, land-grabbing society. And Jews, whatever their flaws, have never been known to be a violent people. If anything, the stereotypical Jew has been depicted as particularly docile.

As a lifelong liberal critic of Israeli policies, the New York Times foreign affairs columnist Thomas Friedman wrote just two weeks ago: "The Palestinians could have a state on the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem tomorrow, if they and the Arab League clearly recognized Israel, normalized relations and renounced violence. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know Israel today."

Give Israel peace, and Israel will give you land.

Which is exactly what Israel agreed to do in the last year of the Clinton administration. It offered PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat about 97 percent of the West Bank and three percent of Israel's land in exchange for peace. Instead, Israel got its men, women and children routinely blown up and maimed by Palestinian terrorists after the Palestinians rejected the Israeli offer at Camp David. Even President Clinton, desirous of being the honest broker and yearning to be history's Middle East peacemaker, blamed the ensuing violence entirely on the Palestinians.

Israel's Camp David offer of a Palestinian state for Palestinian peace was rejected because most Palestinians and their Arab and Muslim supporters don't want a second state. They want Israel destroyed. They admit it. Only those who wish Israel's demise and the willfully naive do not.

If you don't believe this, ask almost anyone living in the Middle East why there is a Middle East War, preferably in Arabic. If you ask in English, they will assume you are either an academic, a Western news reporter, a diplomat or a "peace activist." And then, they will assume you are gullible and will tell you that it's because of "Israeli occupation" or "the Zionist lobby."

But they know it isn't. And it never was.


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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sagetree
GOLD Member since May 2006

sagetree

organic creation
Location: earth

Total posts: 246
Posted: Written by: dragon7

because obviously the Americans here are one eyed and are not open to rational discussion.



I have questons (Why do the Americans here and afew others seem to blieve that the war will end and there will be peace if you kill even MORE people?)





more stereotypical non-sense, wake up


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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:What better reason to agitate a response from Israel tha to further entrench anti western sentiment among muslims



If by engineering situations so that dead babies can be paraded by apparently grief striken "aid workers" for the fawning and gullible or careless media then why not do so?



Iran knows this and Hezbollah know this. They will make every effort to ensure the media gets what it wants. A nice artisticly framed emotive dead baby shot for the cover of time magazine.



Israel also knows this. So why would they target civilians? Do you really think Israel is so blind that they would embark on a mission of murder for the sake of hatred? If that were true would they have waited until now or waited for a provocation?





Wars cost a lot of money and wars can bankrupt countries. With each guided missile costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and supply being limited, would Israel really waste such ordinance when there are strategic goals?

If Israel were so keen on targeting civilians and engaging in mass genocide then why are they using low yeild laser guided missiles? Surly a freefalling bomb would be more effective? Or why bother when you could randomly fire artillery barrages laying waste to all in sight?





Fact is folks, Israel is not targeting civilians. Civilian deaths are not strategicly favourable in either the actual war or the propaganda war.

Every airstrike is fed live to command centres and the pilot will establish a firing solution and transmit it to a commander. Only the mission commander can give permission to fire and unless there is a near certainty, based on intelligence available, that the target is Hezbollah permission would not be granted. Why waste an airstrike sortie on anything less than a hit on Hezbollah?

Therefore, the only time civilians are killed is when intelligence is wrong. Unfortunate but no-where near a war crime.



It is always going to be a tough call to make when your enemy will not declare itself and there is always the possibilty that your intelligence is wrong but if you're a commander and you have the opportunity of taking out a hezbollah rocket shipment (transported by UN ambulances for cover) then you have to take it.





You have reasonable assurances that civilians have been cleared from the area. Escape is possible, otherwise eight wheeler UN armoured cars wouldn't be roaming around with impunity.



This means that if you end up with a pile of dead babies you can be reasonably assured the blood is on Hezbollahs hands.





Buildings re subject to pin point strikes not carpet bombing which means as soon as a strike has hit there is a window of escape/ Isreal has made its tactics known well in advance. Does Hezbollah do the same?





And so with Hezbollah staging its dead baby shots to win the propaganda war we get this:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/28/africa/web.0728arabs.php
br>


Furthering the global islamofascist cause.





Interestingly and on that note, I haven't seen any (not that I've looked exhaustively) Lebanese army (heard of one alleged incident), Christians, Druze or anybody other than the shi't muslims/hizballah muslim jihadists actually take up arms against Israel as yet.





This is an islamist assault on Israel which they are rightly defending themselves from.





Hezbollah want a ceasefire and will manipulate the media to get one because they are losing this war. Yes they're still able to fire large numbers of rockets but their stranglehold on the Lebonese people will be losened by this which will allow the lebonese to cast them off themselves as they should have done already.



If anything this is a liberation of Lebanon.



http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=68d423af-d79e-46ac-8c56-0ac06ff55f5e
br>


Even the Lebanese who aren't being bombarded by arab propaganda recognise that this is all HizBoAllah's fault.



The biggest enemy though is a treasonably inept media for not recognising or deliberately ignoring (see robert fisk) media manipulation by fascist thugs.



To call for a ceasefire and to condemn isreal is to give in to terrorism which has dire implications for us all. It's about time people round here had the maturity to accept that wars are neccessary and unfortunately people die in them.



If we let the modern day SS take over sovereign nations because we are afraid of limited civilian casualtues then we might as well just end our democracy right now and hand over the keys to westminster to the finsbury park mosque.

EDITED_BY: Gremlin_Lou (1154954570)


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Pssst



Good post grem, but quite difficult to read (and daunting), a few more extra spacing in the paragraphs would be good tongue











smile much better grem

EDITED_BY: Brit_Joe (1154995527)


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London

Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: Gremlin_Lou



So why would they target civilians? Do you really think Israel is so blind that they would embark on a mission of murder for the sake of hatred?





Yes, I do believe that the IDF intentionally targets civilians.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1750916,00.html
br>


In this case a Brit was killed, so the the soldier was actually tried. It goes without saying that if the victim had been Arab it would not even have made the news.





 Written by: Gremlin_Lou



If we let the modern day SS take over sovereign nations





Which SS are you talking about? The IDF?



<last part of post deleted...>

EDITED_BY: Yell fire! (1154957926)


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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:In the case of that, I AGREE, that soldier may well have been killed intentionally. But that doesn't mean the entire IDF is murderous and blood-thirsty.

There is a huge difference between the two scenario's.
That single solider didn't require authorisation to pull the trigger, he may have been trigger happy, thought that the man was a suicide bomber, anything could have gone through his head, he may even have thought 'Wargh, im 19 and ive got a gun and I wanna kill sumthing, and shot him' It was either murder, or it was manslaughter.

Shellings in this war are co-ordinated by a central office. The IDF are acting on their best intelligence, and any missiles launched have to be authorised by the top levels before it can go whizzing off. Sometimes, intelligence is flawed, but at least, although very sad , when civillians are hit it is an accident. Unlike HizBoAllah, when its the opposite, aim for the civillians, accidently kill a solider.

And I do sincerly hope by your last comment, that you are not implying Jews are unable to be impartial and balanced?


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!





By the way, if you want people to regard your posts as impartial and balanced, you might want to lose the star of david...





As Jews are clearly incapable of unbias logic? (oops, you beat my post!) confused



Perhaps folks could just write what nationalities and religions they are bias against in their signatures to make it easier to keep track of.



ubblol

EDITED_BY: NYC (1154955642)


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Yes, what a strange remark...



Maybe you loose your general opinion against "JEWS, IDF, ISRAELIS" in general? and maybe you come back to rational arguments... Yellfire?



ONE example doesn't turn ALL IDF soldiers into murderers... as a couple of morons don't doom the entire human race... *gnarf* (but maybe they could)...

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1154956421)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London

Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: Gremlin_Lou


And I do sincerly hope by your last comment, that you are not implying Jews are unable to be impartial and balanced?



I apologise for my last comment. It was stupid and ignorant. In fact, at yesterday's anti war demonstration in London there was a small group of Orthodox Jews who were there to protest against Israel, despite it being the sabbath.

However, I wonder why you assume that Hezbollah targets civilians and accidentally kills soldiers. The fact is the only rockets Hezbollah has are completely inaccurate, so Hezbollah is simply targeting Israel, not civilians. You seem to assume that if Hezbollah had laser guided bombs, they would still be picking out civilians rather than IDF targets. I don't buy that. I think that firing crude rockets more or less blindly is the only option they have. That, or they could just sit back and get bombed without retaliating.


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Gremlin_Lou


That single solider didn't require authorisation to pull the trigger, he may have been trigger happy, thought that the man was a suicide bomber, anything could have gone through his head, he may even have thought 'Wargh, im 19 and ive got a gun and I wanna kill sumthing, and shot him' It was either murder, or it was manslaughter.



Armies are composed of individuals, are they not?

In any case the Isreali argument for war look very dubious to me. A far greater number of people have died (somewhere around a thousand now) as a result than would have done if peaceful resolutions were persued. But instead we get some crap about "defence", and that killing hundreds of civilians in anouther country is justifiable to save tens in your own. And that's assuming that Isreali war efforts are even accomplishing their goal, which doesn't seem likely.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:Its not to save 10's though is it? HizBoallah are responsible for hundreds od suicide and rocket attacks in israel, not just these two soldiers kidnapped and the 8 that were killed. That was the act of war that started it.

Yes, armies are composed of indiiduals, but acting as a unit, so a individuals. If you've ever been a geek and played Warhammer, you'd know that!


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London

Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: FireTom


ONE example doesn't turn ALL IDF soldiers into murderers... as a couple of morons don't doom the entire human race



This is ONE example of a British citizen being killed. But there are countless examples of Arabs being killed. This includes old women and young children being killed in VERY dubious circumstances, but of course such cases don't get much publicity and almost NEVER get to court, because Arab lives are not worth as much as British lives. While every individual in the IDF may not be a bloodthirsty murderer, collectively the IDF has shown that it has very little regard for civilian Arab lives.


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I maintain my point, a greater number of people on both sides have died as a result of Isreali military actions than would have otherwise.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:I think it has been demonstrated that the resolution of the issue in the middle east is not limited to if one had the "power". Power is definately out there and available for use. It seems to me we are lacking the wisdom, experience and unified will to solve the conflict; it not a power issue at all.

Analogy to consider : Perhaps those that enjoy the expression of power are a bit prone to the use of a big hammer in all situations, when analysis might suggest that there would be a more appropriate tool...

Cheesy, but true, humans tend to do this misguided approach an awful lot. **But no, I do not know what the most appropriate tool for this is, just to get that in before you ask again!

It might be interesting if you went outside of this forum and borrowed a series of potential solutions from say, a bunch of proffessors studying the middle east, and then brought them back here for discussion. It would give a concrete subject to focus a debate around. Rather than us trying to present them ourselves.

Been doing this on a different forum and learning a lot about the conflict in this region and what people are doing about it-- more listening than anything, more than I can even try to write for you in my garbled fashion, sorry! But that way you get more solid material to work with from those actually experienced and involved. Less rheotoric emotion, and fine song lyrics though wink


grouphug


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!



Yes, I do believe that the IDF intentionally targets civilians.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1750916,00.html
br>
In this case a Brit was killed, so the the soldier was actually tried. It goes without saying that if the victim had been Arab it would not even have made the news.



This is an Israeli soldier, or the whole IDF? And the ruling of a British court is absolute fact?

I never consider a court ruling anything to do with fact. Not since a court ruled in favor of parents complaining because their kid has an IQ of 120 and they both have IQs of 140 and fined the OB/GYN on his flawless delivery 15 years before.

Sorry, you have to do better than that.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


In any case the Isreali argument for war look very dubious to me. A far greater number of people have died (somewhere around a thousand now) as a result than would have done if peaceful resolutions were persued.



AAAARRGH!!!!

I swear to god the next person who brings up this bullhonkey about "peaceful alternatives" without ACTUALLY SUGGESTING WHAT FEASABLE PEACEFUL ALTERNATIVES THERE MIGHT BE...

mad2

Have you been READING the thread, Jeff?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: andrealee


Analogy to consider : Perhaps those that enjoy the expression of power are a bit prone to the use of a big hammer in all situations, when analysis might suggest that there would be a more appropriate tool...





Non-Https Image Link


Andrealee, praytell...

WHAT MORE APPROPRIATE TOOL?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

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Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Oh Mike, did you not read the rest of my post?

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

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Posted:cute gremilin though

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: andrealee


Oh Mike, did you not read the rest of my post?



Yes. I did. You make it sound as if Israel is in this for recreational purposes or something? Do you suppose that Israel has no university professors who study Mid-East history? You think that Israel would rather pursue a military solution at great cost and loss of life as opposed to a less costly and safer peaceful alternative?

How does one pursue peace when one's adversaries have said that they will not talk, will not pursue peace, and will stop at nothing short of total destruction of the nation of Israel?

It takes two sides to make peace.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

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Posted:If you did, why repeat yourself again? I said bluntly I did not know, and suggested bringing in information from other people who may have some well founded practical approaches-- people who work or study that field.



But, I am sorry if my post sounded the way you perceived , it is not at all what I meant. I meant it in a really straightforward fashion; I think we would learn more and have a better discussion if we started with serious material to mutually study and reflect on. Suggestions and proposals made by people who have lived in and or studied the region and its issues extensively. Educated opinions. A structured framework to brainstorm off of.





I dont have the time or motivation to offer that myself, so opened up the idea and tossed it on Firetoms table to see if anyone would do anything with it.





In the same way you might feel that non medical opinions on medical issues are frequently misleading,and somewhat frustrating to understand, I think it is worth considering that the same might be the case here.



I am sure there are people in Isreal , and Lebanon, working with this in mind. I have recently learned some interesting things from reading their perspectives in other source material and forums. One of the things I learned is how layered and complex this issue is, and how little I personally know about the area and its conerns. But it feels very relevant to me to find out more. So I am practicing patience,and perseverance, and coming at it again, with even more compassion as my tool of choice.



I still think it very odd that some people feel that simply because a bunch of poi spinners have not come out with a suggestion of a peaceful approach, that there is not one out there worth trying! You really can not validate your opinion convincingly that way. I don't know how someone can possibily expect me to be the one to solve the middle east crisis. wink



Even after I find out about some of the theoretical and practical approaches that more experienced people are doing in this regard, it is hard for me to try and explain it third hand to someone else and then defend a position I just considered!More than solving the war, I have been trying to figure out what so many Canadians have been doing there,and why is there a Lebanese/Canadian connection at all. Historical context. Interesting. But I would make a mess explaining my fledgling understanding. This months Macleans magazine has some good info though.





I have been inspired and (somewhat) reassured at the wide range of much more qualified folk out there seriously working on it though. Progress may yet be made, we shall see.



In the meantime, I still mourn for the fear and suffering of the people that do not have the option of removing themselves from the practical realities of this debate. For them, it is not at all abstract and I wish I could alleviate their pain.

hug


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: FireTom


Besides I am somehow missing patriarch's input in here... wink



I have felt that I have no right to post much in this topic. As Dragon7 said, we one eyed people tend to be incapable of having a rational discussion:


Non-Https Image Link


When trying to debate what constitutes an acceptable use of force, I find myself involuntarily shouting thing like Hang em from the yardarm, Keelhaul the swabs, and Hamas should be marooned.

Dragon7 hit on the key issue, of course. We pirates lack stereoscopic vision. In other words, we have no perspective. When asked about my perspective on the middle east, I feel only a cold emptiness inside... and words will not come to my lips. I merely say arrrr and turn away in shame.

How can I offer a solution to the problems of the middle east? My mind is concerned only with two things: plunder and booty.

When I read OWD suggestion that the Jews should be removed from Israel, I thought of how the president of Iran (who arms and supports Hezbollah) suggested the same thing. Is the best solution we can come up with simply to join the enemies of Israel in their mission to drive away the Jews?

Iran "moderates" it's call for Israel to be wiped off the map, suggesting instead that if we persist in believing the myth of the holocaust, that we should merely "move" Israel.

I occurred to me that, were I a Jew in Israel, I would probably start buying diamonds so I could bribe the guards for a better spot on the trains. The thought of diamonds distracts me, of course. Any mention of plunder does. They are so sparkly. I want some.

By the way, lets pretend that it was totally a coincidence that right as the UN was set to vote on how to sanction Iran for developing nuclear weapons, terrorist organizations supported and armed by Iran decided to create what they probably hoped would merely be an interesting hostage crisis to distract the media.

Im thinking now that they didnt anticipate Israels response. This would explain how it is being reported. Im sure they had plenty of photos prepared for the media on the subject of the hostages, but now they are forced to create faked photographs on the fly... and do a lousy job at it.

Back to my point. Making the Jews leave Israel would seem to suggest that they are the ones causing the problem. True, a rape requires both a rapist and a victim. True, putting the victim in jail (or, in Muslim countries, killing her) will prevent further rapes from occurring. Still, it seems to me more fair to remove the rapist from the situation, and let the better party go along their merry way.

Why would we do this? Why do we jail criminals, rather than victims. The common answer is that the victim will return to living peacefully, while the criminal will simply seek out another victim.

Who can we call the criminal in this situation. Given the choice between removing the Jews, and removing their enemies, which shall we relocate?

I think it may be helpful to try to determine which party is more likely to live peacefully in the absence of the other, and which is more likely to seek out new victims.

It is an interesting analysis. Whichever side we decide to support, lets try and make sure that they dont plan to use nuclear weapons to establish an empire that stretches from Spain to Indonesia.

Shiver me timbers. Now all I can think about is Spanish gold, and how much I love it. I better step aside now. This seems to me to be one of the better discussions Ive seen on this site, and I wouldnt want to spoil anything. Arrrrrr.


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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Correct me if im wrong but didnt Israel pull out of territory after a UN resolution was passed (which favored Palestine), only to be greeted with rocket fire from HizBoAllah?

Rockets which are packed with thousands of unnecessary metal balls which are designed to cause maximum civilian casualty and nothing else?

And Isael is the aggressor? Oh please...


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

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Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Patriarch:is that what is meant by one eyed?ubblol
I thought it meant something all together different!!!!!!
wink


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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