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FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Posted:
 Written by: Brit_Joe


 Written by: NYC


 Written by: Birgit


right... that's just ridiculous. 1 rocket and Israel invades the country?



ONE rocket?!? Wow, the BBC is worse than I thought!



Unfortunatly the british media isnt terribly good in my opinion.




Argh. Joe, that's not my idea of why they attacked Lebanon, as I said earlier, but nevermind. All I get from the BBC is Radio 1 at work, and they're usually only interested in politics if it involves single parents, underage sex or school dinners.

As to spelling "Israeli", look at how everyone else does it or use the spellcheck button smile

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Posted:
 Written by: Brit_Joe





Oh and I forgot to mention, Isreal by using force when provoked has undoudtidly stopped numerouse attacks from happening against its people through fear of what the Isrealy army is capable of and is willing to do to those who provoke it. If Isreal had laid down they would have sufferd countless more attacks. Its human nature you avoid what you fear.





Check the preceeding post by andrealee, which explains why Israels use of force directed towards civilians has done nothing to stop future terrorist.actions



 Written by: andrealee



Still trying to understand why you guys think it is a show of strength/defense for Isreal to have have responded to Hezbollas terrorists tactics by bombing Lebanon. The part that I dont get is why you would think it will work to stop the terrorism. If the people can evacuate, so can the terrorists. The terrorist organizations probably have more resources for escape at their disposal, and perhaps even plans to that effect. So they are unlikely to be wiped out, or even broken down all that much. Goal unaccomplished, the terrorists live.



Meanwhile, Lebanon is being destroyed. Civilians killed. I mean, do you think the terrorists care about the Lebanese civilians, the infrastructure and their homes? Care sufficiently to change their behaviour? Somehow I do not think so. If they are willing to use the civilians as shields they obviously dont have any compunction against getting them killed.



So with this recent attack Isreal sends the message: provoke us, and we will viciously attack a bunch of people you dont really give a f--ck about? Whats that supposed to do?



And the continuing terror breeds more terrorists, so not only is the problem not solved, it is compounded.



How is this reasonable response?





The terrorists do not fear Isreal- they hate it and many are fully prepared to die in suicide attacks against it.



Neither are most of them concerned by Israels attack on civilians, because, just like Israel, they see innocents dying, as a necessary part of achieving their aims.



Now that Israel has added to its carnage of muslim women and children, it has guaranteed a new supply of future terrorists, twisted into merciless hate-filled killers by witnessing their innocent mothers/fathers/sisters/brothers killed as part of Israels 'acceptable civilian losses'.



I ask again, if the terrorists were hiding, not in Lebanon, but in US/UK cities, would you all feel that Israel was justified in bombing London/New York.



Would you all feel as complacent and accepting, if it was your mother/father/sister/brother who had ben killed in a Israeli bombing attack.



If terrorists using Muslim civilians as shields justifies Israeli killings, then why wouldn't them operating in UK/US citizens justify similar attacks?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom

Posted:
 Written by: Doc


Here is the actual situation. The guerillas/terrorists HIDE IN CIVILIAN HOMES. This is a very cowardly and underhanded tactic because it gives the enemy a choice between hitting civilian targets or not fighting at all and letting the guerillas/terrorists continue to attack.




I don't defend the ethicality of this tactic, but I call it effective.

Are you willing to blow up a house with 4 children, 2 women and 1 terrorist inside? Is that a price worth paying? That's the decision that the terrorist tactic forces on you. What would you decide? The way I see it, the only way to fight a war when you're outgunned is to limit how many guns you get firing at you by dispersing your forces. Even better if you disperse your forces among non-combatants.

It's not cowardly, it makes sense. Look at Iraq. Every single time (about twice) that the Iraqi army tried to fight a conventional battle against the coalition forces they got wiped out. So they took cover among civilians and proceeded to spend the next 4 years fighting a war that would have been over in days if they had fought "conventionally". It's the same in Palestine/Lebanon. If Hezbollah stepped out in ranks then they'd get mown down.

They're not cowardly, they use sensible tactics.

My solution would be similar to God's. "If you can't agree on who has it, then no-one has it." Give everyone 1 month to evacuate then nuke the entire area. Wipe it out.

Maybe that would stop the fighting. shrug

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Posted:
 Written by: Sethis



My solution would be similar to God's. "If you can't agree on who has it, then no-one has it." Give everyone 1 month to evacuate then nuke the entire area. Wipe it out.

Maybe that would stop the fighting. shrug



And then the terrorists operate elsewhere and there's lot's more of them because most of the displaced from Lebanon now despise Israel- so another place has to be nuked, and so on and so on.

But, given that some here believe-

1. It's OK for Israel to bomb and kill innocents as part of an effort to take out terrorists

2. There's no other solution other than killing innocents, in order to bring about peace

Then would it not make more sense to give Israel a month to disperse, then nuke it and leave it to the muslims?

After all, if it's OK to displace (or kill, if they refuse to move) innocent civilians, in order to bring about peace, surely that extends to non-muslim innocents as well?

Additionally, you would then get a genuine peace, because the reason that this conflict exists is because of the enforced displacment and ensuing need to maintain that displacement, when traditionally mortal enemies are direct neighbours.

(I'm not seriously suggesting nuking Israel, simply responding to the previous posters suggestion that Lebanon be nuked).

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted:
Lighting , I really be interested in what think this war is really about? And I‘m not referring to the kidnapping.


I find it disconcerting that you support Israel attacking civilians and bombing UN observation posts. Your answer “Again, if you don't want to get hit, don't hit.” is crap. To say “Israel DID warn civilians to evacuate.” is also crap (big edit here).

Patriarch917 are u are you serious when you say UN Accused Of Complicity In Murder Of Israelis” or are you suffering from chosen people syndrome ?


The world is watching, and any sympathy it may have had for Israel is evaporating rapidly. The bottom line is that the Israelis is just as bad as Hezbollah. Stop trying to justify this orgy of violence. The only solution is to stop jihad by showing true leadership.



frown

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted:
 Written by: onewheeldave


I ask again, if the terrorists were hiding, not in Lebanon, but in US/UK cities, would you all feel that Israel was justified in bombing London/New York.

Would you all feel as complacent and accepting, if it was your mother/father/sister/brother who had ben killed in a Israeli bombing attack.



They're NOT hiding in London or New York, are they? They aren't hiding there because our countries wouldn't allow such nonsense to begin in the first place. We would root out terrorist cells and stop them before it came to something like this.

And if Lebanon had been doing its job and rooting out Hezbollah terrorists, rather than tacitly allowing this, then this wouldn't be happening to them, now, would it?

I will point out that both Egypt and Jordan border Israel, as well. They seem to have been doing an excellent job of not allowing terrorists to use their countries as a staging ground for attacks against Israel. And they, unlike Lebanon, would COOPERATE with Israel if such attacks were to occur and would work to approach the problem from within their own borders.

The difference here is that the Lebanese government ALLOWED this, whether explicitly or not (and no doubt there were underhanded dealings between Hezbollah and the official Lebanese government).

And if the US or UK allowed terrorist attacks against Israel to be launched from within their own borders then I would 1) be leaving the country ASAP and 2) be helping the invasion of the US/UK.

Except that's not the case and won't forseeably be the case, will it?

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted:
 Written by: Stone


The bottom line is that the Israelis is just as bad as Hezbollah.



Really? Israel intentionally targets civilian targets for the sole purpose of inciting its enemies to counter-attack? Israel sends terrorist bombers into pizza parlors and ice cream shops?

Sorry, but that's a plainly disgusting statement. And it's plainly incorrect.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Posted:
 Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: onewheeldave


I ask again, if the terrorists were hiding, not in Lebanon, but in US/UK cities, would you all feel that Israel was justified in bombing London/New York.

Would you all feel as complacent and accepting, if it was your mother/father/sister/brother who had ben killed in a Israeli bombing attack.



They're NOT hiding in London or New York, are they? They aren't hiding there because our countries wouldn't allow such nonsense to begin in the first place. We would root out terrorist cells and stop them before it came to something like this.

And if Lebanon had been doing its job and rooting out Hezbollah terrorists, rather than tacitly allowing this, then this wouldn't be happening to them, now, would it?

I will point out that both Egypt and Jordan border Israel, as well. They seem to have been doing an excellent job of not allowing terrorists to use their countries as a staging ground for attacks against Israel. And they, unlike Lebanon, would COOPERATE with Israel if such attacks were to occur and would work to approach the problem from within their own borders.

The difference here is that the Lebanese government ALLOWED this, whether explicitly or not (and no doubt there were underhanded dealings between Hezbollah and the official Lebanese government).

And if the US or UK allowed terrorist attacks against Israel to be launched from within their own borders then I would 1) be leaving the country ASAP and 2) be helping the invasion of the US/UK.

Except that's not the case and won't forseeably be the case, will it?



As you say, they're not hiding in the UK/US and they're not likely to be in the near future.

Which allows us to be complacent because, as UK/US innocent civilians, we'll never have to face what the innocent civilians in Lebanon are currently facing.

Nevertheless, those civilian innocents are currently facing that carnage and, yes, as you say, their government may have been negligent in their approach to terrorists hiding, but IMO, the actions of an individuals government shouldn't mean that they die.

And while you, as a American doctor, could indeed migrate if you disagreed with your goverment; peasants in Lebanon do not have the same opportunity.

While I agree that we in the UK/US are unlikely to face the prospect of Israeli retaliation bombings against hiding terrorists, I would point out that-

 Written by: onewheeldave


I ask again, if the terrorists were hiding, not in Lebanon, but in US/UK cities, would you all feel that Israel was justified in bombing London/New York.




was hypothetical- I don't expect you Mike, to attempt to sincerely imagine yourself in the postion of a Lebanon peasant watching their family die, but, to others, I'd suggest that it's worth doing.

Because, whatever the wrongs of the terrorists or the Lebanese govt- innocent civilians are being displaced and slaughtered.

We're lucky, our innocent mothers/fathers/sisters/brothers will not be bombed by Israeli forces- but that's not cos they're more innocent than muslims in Lebanon.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted:
Yes really! Wot the Israelis arn't killing innocent people and bombing UN observers?

To people on the outside, both sides are just as bad as each other.

Anh whot about this :

The Israelis are 100 per cent using chemical weapons.

Lebanese President Emile Lahoud has repeatedly accused Israel of using phosphorus bombs in its offensive.

Blackened bodies have been showing up at hospitals in southern Lebanon two weeks into the war between Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas that has seen at least 418 people, mostly civilians, killed in Lebanon and at least 42 Israelis.

Killed by Israeli air raids, the Lebanese dead are charred in a way local doctors, who have lived through years of civil war and Israeli occupation, say they have not seen before.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted:
 Written by: onewheeldave


Nevertheless, those civilian innocents are currently facing that carnage and, yes, as you say, their government may have been negligent in their approach to terrorists hiding, but IMO, the actions of an individuals government shouldn't mean that they die.



That's a great platitude. And tell me, were we right to bomb Germany when that government was killing millions even though we killed civilians at the time? Were we right to bomb Japan and kill innocents? Or should we have sat there and let them walk all over us, take over the world, and not fight back because civilians might be at risk?

Fact is that it's a WAR. And war is hell. And Lebanon fired the first shot.

What? Lebanon? Don't I mean Hezbollah? No, I mean Lebanon. See, the thing about using terrorists and guerillas is that it's this brilliantly evil and cowardly way of fighting, but also terribly effective. This is because if uniformed personnel flying the Lebanese flag had shown up and fired rockets at Israel, nobody would give a second thought to an Israeli retaliation.

But it wasn't the Lebanese Army. It was a bunch of terrorists and guerillas. And they are the de facto Lebanese army. And they hide behind civilians and then when they fight and then they huckster you guys into going "oh, evil Israel, terrible evil Israel for shooting at civilians!" And if you're defending Hezbollah, or even calling Israel evil for this action, then you fell for it.

Just assume that Hezbollah was actually the official Lebanese Army (which it might as well be) and then think of how your reactions might differ. Would you be more angry at Israel...or at Lebanon for not evacuating its citizens?

Well, Israel is defending its borders, and they're using uniformed personnel flying the Israeli flag with clearly marked military installations and equipment. And if Lebanon wants to play dirty and use terrorists and guerillas to attack, then Israel is left with no choice but to do the best they can and try to drive them back. The only other option (and I assure you that the Israeli high brass has gone over this one in great detail) is to do nothing and just let Hezbollah keep raiding.




While I agree that we in the UK/US are unlikely to face the prospect of Israeli retaliation bombings against hiding terrorists, I would point out that-

 Written by: onewheeldave


I ask again, if the terrorists were hiding, not in Lebanon, but in US/UK cities, would you all feel that Israel was justified in bombing London/New York.




was hypothetical- I don't expect you Mike, to attempt to sincerely imagine yourself in the postion of a Lebanon peasant watching their family die, but, to others, I'd suggest that it's worth doing.




It's hypothetical, but it's also a completely inappropriate comparison. You're shifting the blame on to Israel for not doing what the Lebanese government SHOULD have done, which is to evacuate their citizens. They've had plenty of warning and they should be hauling them out of there just as fast as they can.

This entire even is nothing but a public relations stunt on the part of Lebanon. Make no mistake, the Lebanese government was probably well aware and likely funded the Hezbollah attacks.

I'm just sad that so many people have watched the Lebanese essentially slaughter their own through inaction and then blame Israel for it (well, what did they think the IDF was going to do? They shoot rockets, raid, and then act surprised when the IDF comes down on them like a ton of bricks?)

So yeah, it's terrible. Awful. And nobody here has suggested a viable alternative.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted:
 Written by: Stone


Yes really! Wot the Israelis arn't killing innocent people and bombing UN observers?

To people on the outside, both sides are just as bad as each other.

Anh whot about this :

The Israelis are 100 per cent using chemical weapons.

Lebanese President Emile Lahoud has repeatedly accused Israel of using phosphorus bombs in its offensive.




From your source:
 Written by:

"We are sending off samples tomorrow, but we have no confirmation yet that illegal weapons have been used,"



So what you just posted about "The Israelis are 100% using chemical weapons" is...

A lie.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada

Posted:
"It was a bunch of terrorists and guerillas. And they are the de facto Lebanese army."



What, cause you say so?



Ridiculous statement. I can't even be bothered to write out why. Oh, I guess I will try and spell it out a little.



Surely you know the difference between the military; which is created from, for and by the citizens of a country, is responsive to the directives of that nation, and responsible under international law, and a group terrorists that represent only a small sector of a society, and have no respect for the laws of that nation or the world?



You keep mixing up the Hezbolla and the Lebanese. They are not the same, and should not be used in an interchangeable fashion. Hezbolla , a Terrorist Organization is not the same as the Lebanese government, even though some members may be part of its social and political wing. Further, Hezbolla is not the same thing as the citizens of Lebanon, though it may hide amongst them. Nor is it the same as the Lebanese military, though some may be Lebanese, and armed.



These are not all that subtle distinctions, really. You should be able to recognize the difference, and acknowledge the importance of that difference.



Hezbolla is only one small, though very aggressive, part of the Lebanese nation.



Oh yeah, and your comment that the Lebanese government should have evacuated thier citizens-- what?!! Are you crazy? Canada, a first world nation, with tons of resources, and supported by the Isreali's in their efforts, have not yet managed to evacuate all of our citizens from Lebanon. Thats only 50000 people. So what on earth would make you think that the Lebanese government would have the resources to manage to evacuate their entire country?! Absurd.





One of the UN observers killed by the Isreali's was Canadian. They had taken shelter in a bunker, after coming under artillary fire. The bunker was well equipped to protect them from that.So while under cover, they repeatedly - something like eight or nine times- called the Isreali military officials and informed them that they were UN peacekeepers at that location, unarmed innocents in the line of fire. To no avail. Apparently this went on for hours.Then the violence actually escalated- even after communicating their exact location and situation- to a bomb, which the bunker was not designed to withstand. Decimation. What a way to die.

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted:
 Written by: andrealee


Surely you know the difference between the military; which is created from, for and by the citizens of a country, is responsive to the directives of that nation, and responsible under international law, and a group terrorists that represent only a small sector of a society, and have no respect for the laws of that nation or the world?

Hezbolla is only one small, though very agressive, part of that nation.



The Iraqi army was created from, for, and by the citizens of the country and was responsive to the directives of that nation and was responsible under international law?

Sorry, that's just the most absurd statement yet.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada

Posted:
Glad you made it, and not me! wink

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted:
Lightning, the only lie here is that Israel, can in any way, justify their violence.



You don’t even know why Israel started this battel, yet you continue to assert that Israel is innocent, and it’s all Hezbollah’s fault, and they won’t fight fair etc. etc.



Stop complaining, and do something useful to end ‘the conflict” (not just this battle). It must END!

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

fNiGOLD Member
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA

Posted:
 Written by: Stone



You don’t even know why Israel started this battel, yet you continue to assert that Israel is innocent, and it’s all Hezbollah’s fault, and they won’t fight fair etc. etc.





Excuse me, but who crossed a border, killed some people, kidnapped some more, then went back across the border, then proceeded to hide amongst civilians?



CLEARLY Israel's started this wink

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Posted:
Doc, just to clarify, you would actually say Hezbollah = Lebanese army?



By the way, an interesting point:



even though I still stand by my opinion about the civilians, according to Wiki which is unfortunately all I have on the topic, something like 60 or 65 % of the Lebanese population do think that Hezbollah is an organisation with legitimate reason to do as they do. Which is quite scary.



Given that 42 % of the population are Christian and about 5 % Druse who generally show little support for terrorist activities, that means about 15-30 % of Christians agree with it, provided the support is 100 % among the Muslims which I doubt. So probably more.



Though whether the support mentioned on wiki goes far enough to hide a terrorist in your house or store some rockets for them, or if it's just a general "don't oppose what they're doing" I don't know.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted:
 Written by: Stone


Lightning, the only lie here is that Israel, can in any way, justify their violence.




No. Your words were, and I quote: "Israel is 100% using chemical weapons."

The article you quoted as a source said that this was an accusation and uncomfirmed. Then the descriptions that it gave are consistent with no known chemical weapon.

So you either told or perpetuated a LIE. And in a debate such as this, a lie invalidates all future statements that you make because we can't be bothered to fact-check every future statement of yours.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted:
 Written by: Birgit


Doc, just to clarify, you would actually say Hezbollah = Lebanese army?




No, de facto Lenbanese army. It's not the Army because an Army, per Webster's, is a uniformed force operating under a national flag. Although Hezbollah is neither, it doesn't really operate much outside of Lebanese territory.

Hezbollah controls approximately 11% of the seats in the Lebanese parliament. This governmental branch funds the military wing of the group.

Now, Lebanon could ban this organization based on unprovoked attacks against solely civilian targets in violation of international law. But they don't. In fact, they sit back and allow it. They even support it.

And so although Hezbollah is not actually an army, it serves the role in this case of being a government-supported and tacitly sanctioned military group.

The *REAL* story, which nobody seems to be paying attention to here, is that the Lebanese government, either by arrangement or agreement, allowed Hezbollah to launch these attacks against Israeli civilian targets. And then they put on their halos and said "we have nothing to do with it!"

Oh puhLEEEZE. Any government worth its salt could have caught the vast movements of equipment and personnel required to set off such an action as Hezbollah used to start this.

And so the fault lies with the Lebanese government for not having evacuated their civilians first. But, of course, they couldn't really do that because they need their civilians to be shields and martyrs.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted:
 Written by: Stone


You don’t even know why Israel started this battel, yet you continue to assert that Israel is innocent, and it’s all Hezbollah’s fault, and they won’t fight fair etc. etc.



Please show me where Israel started this battle?

Please cite reputable news sources.

And if you can't, then please admit that this statement was in error.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada

Posted:
Doc, so much of what you wrote is full of assumptions, leaps of judgements, inaccuracies, and qualifications such as "tacitly" etc, as to be meaningless. It is interesting, but only as a personal interpretation of events and policies in the region.If it was as simple as you lay it out most people / countries /international organizations would not be as concerned as they have been about the inappropriateness and extremeness of Isreals recent attack on Lebanon.



It is sort of like saying the government of the USA allowed the bombing of the twin towers... tacitly supported it even... by arrangement or agreement... after all, did they not have some advance warning of such a plan? Why did they not stop it? Or the bombings in the London subway system- that was even by their own citizens, wasn't it?



I realize that is an extreme and unlikely example, but you may get what I mean by it? A government may be aware or suspicious of something like a movement of weaponry or terrorist plot, and yet not have the ability or capacity to effectively stop it. Inability or even unwillingness to stop something is not the same as complicity or agreement to it.



Hezbolla has a political and social aspect that has been considered by many to be quite legitimate. I dont know all the details of that, so I can not say either way. But it may be similar to the IRA and Sinn Fein sp? Yes, it confuses the issue. Maybe it is another front they use, like the civilians as shields, but still, their role and representation in the government is not as simply described as a miltiary force at all. And 11 percent would not exactly be the ruling influence regardless. It would not necessarily reflect the democratic will of the people at all.

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Posted:
This is somehting that's occured to me in the past, but bwhich I've not put forward because it seems impractical and extreme.



But, given the current situation, whereby future peace is looking totally impossible and attempting to achieve that impossiblity is resulting in countless deaths of innocent civilians- I'm going to put it forward as a serious suggestion-



 Written by: lightning





So yeah, it's terrible. Awful. And nobody here has suggested a viable alternative.









Disband Israel- evacuate everyone and leave the region to the muslims.



The international community provides a realistic and sensible region where the Israelis can live in peace.



Possibilities being Canada, Mexico, regions of America.



The benefits are-



1. Acknowledgement of the mistake made in the first place by setting up Israel in that region



2. An end to the current long-lasting conflict in the region



3. A peaceful state for the Israelis



4. Future stability for the world, cos, if this goes on, it's lilely to escalate at some point into use of nuclear weapons.



To use a medical analogy, the current situation is like a body piercing that hasn't taken.



The jewelry (Israel) is surrounded by irritated, swollen, red flesh- the bodies immune system is trying to expell it but can't.



Treatments (after-care washing progressing to anti-biotics) have failed and, if the jewelry is not removed, gangrene etc will follow.



The only sensible thing to do is take the jewelry out and allow healing to take place.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

sagetreeGOLD Member
organic creation
246 posts
Location: earth, Wales (UK)

Posted:
 Written by: sethis

Are you willing to blow up a house with 4 children, 2 women and 1 terrorist inside? Is that a price worth paying? That's the decision that the terrorist tactic forces on you. What would you decide?





absolutley not, in fact i wouldnt blow up a house with 6 terrorist and 1 innocent person in it.







"Were we right to bomb Japan and kill innocents?"



nope



 Written by: doc lightning

I'm just sad that so many people have watched the Lebanese essentially slaughter their own through inaction and then blame Israel for it (well, what did they think the IDF was going to do? They shoot rockets, raid, and then act surprised when the IDF comes down on them like a ton of bricks?)



So yeah, it's terrible. Awful. And nobody here has suggested a viable alternative.





so now your blaming lebanon

why are you so against israel taking responsibility for their actions. ISREAL CHOSE TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. you must really believe that the only way to fight and stop violence is with more violence. how sad



i have an alternative: DONT KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE

Instead they chose to play into the terrorist game by killing civilians just like the hezbollah seems to have wanted. now the world is a bit more confused on who the bad guys are. i am confused most of the time about war because i don't understand why people hate so much.
sagetreeGOLD Member
organic creation
246 posts
Location: earth, Wales (UK)

Posted:
"The fight has to STOP! Nobody disagrees. Now, please indicate HOW you suggest this to end in the face of the recent years, where all negotiations were met with neglect in the long end."

the only solution i can suggest would be in agreement with onewheeldave and move Israel. However i don't think the people of Israel would accept this offer, unfortunatley.

"Israel is not deliberately killing innocent civilians, but they accept civilian casualties, as they have to."

why did they have to? did they accomplish their goals of stopping hezbollah firing missiles into Israel by bombing lebanon?
MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted:
 Written by: sagetree


i have an alternative: DONT KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE
Instead they chose to play into the terrorist game by killing civilians just like the hezbollah seems to have wanted. now the world is a bit more confused on who the bad guys are. i am confused most of the time about war because i don't understand why people hate so much.



And do WHAT about the rockets sailing across the border killing Israeli civilians?

You keep on avoiding that bit.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted:
 Written by: andrealee


It is sort of like saying the government of the USA allowed the bombing of the twin towers... tacitly supported it even... by arrangement or agreement... after all, did they not have some advance warning of such a plan? Why did they not stop it? Or the bombings in the London subway system- that was even by their own citizens, wasn't it?



Really? It's "sort of like saying...?" Is it "Sort of " like how Al-Qaeda is a minority party within the US with vast political power and funding?

Oh, wait...it's not. Because Al-Qaeda ISN'T a US organization. It's an enemy power. The US didn't fund it and the US doesn't recognize it.

Hezbollah is a Lebanese organization. It holds 11% of the seats of the Lebanese parliament. It has vast funds, does vast projects, and it launches attacks against Israeli civilians.

Your comparison is invalid.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted:
 Written by: sagetree


the only solution i can suggest would be in agreement with onewheeldave and move Israel. However i don't think the people of Israel would accept this offer, unfortunatley.




Not feasable. Believe me, I'd be all for it myself.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Posted:
 Written by: onewheeldave



I ask again, if the terrorists were hiding, not in Lebanon, but in US/UK cities, would you all feel that Israel was justified in bombing London/New York.

Would you all feel as complacent and accepting, if it was your mother/father/sister/brother who had ben killed in a Israeli bombing attack.

If terrorists using Muslim civilians as shields justifies Israeli killings, then why wouldn't them operating in UK/US citizens justify similar attacks?



I think you're comparing apples and oranges. We can try and make it apples and apples and I'll give you my own personal response. Please accept this as a BAD analogy and try and focus on my point rather than my details.

If:
1) I was in my building in New York City
2) Terrorists had taken over the building and were shooting rockets into Montreal, Canada.
3) The US government was unable to stop the threat due to lack of power
4) The terrorists had secured the building making a rescue too dangerous.

I say to the Canadian millitary: Blow up my building.

My life is not more important that the Canadians that are being killed.

And full blame for my death should go towards the terrorists, not the Canadian government or the pilot that pulled the trigger.

****

If a US plane was hijacked with me and my family on it and it was being flown into into the Empire State Building I would WANT my government to shoot me down and 'kill innocent civilians' (me!) to save the lives of others.

***

I know the situation in Israel is VERY different and MUCH more complex.

My fundemental opinion on the scruples question is:

If a terrorist organization puts a security force in a position to either kill me (innocent civilian) to save other civilians, I would expect them to do it and full blame would go to THOSE WHO INITIATED THE SITUATION, not those who pulled the trigger.

Now I will end by repeating three more times:

I know the situation in Israel is VERY different and MUCH more complex.

I know the situation in Israel is VERY different and MUCH more complex.

I know the situation in Israel is VERY different and MUCH more complex.

*runs away*

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Posted:
 Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: sagetree


i have an alternative: DONT KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE
Instead they chose to play into the terrorist game by killing civilians just like the hezbollah seems to have wanted. now the world is a bit more confused on who the bad guys are. i am confused most of the time about war because i don't understand why people hate so much.



And do WHAT about the rockets sailing across the border killing Israeli civilians?

You keep on avoiding that bit.



Since there are less Israeli citizens being killed they count less.

If the Israeli army intimidated civilians into remaining in dangerous areas or built millitary stations in heavily populated residential areas then more Israelis would be killed and THEN we'd all feel bad for them.

Plus, you forget, Israel is supported by America so their babies count less.

wink

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

SymBRONZE Member
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Posted:
I've not been following this thread, but I thought this might be of interest



https://glass-garden.livejournal.com/6560.html



And this



https://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=74287

EDITED_BY: Sym (1154003870)

There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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