Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:jeff - why?
you can discuss whicheveraspects of the palestine-israel conflict you please, so why can others not discuss what we deem as relevant to the current debate...?

i'm currently unhappy to accept yellfire's stance that israel were the foremost aggressors in the six-day war and have since then, been the equivalent of bully-like squatters in the region.

we are discussing exactly what you stated matters - how people see that war today.

you actually said all that matters is how people remember it - i don't remember it at all as i wasn't born in 1967 so i can't comment on that but i can comment on what i believe are the important factors leading to the situation we see today.

is that so irrelevant to the discussion or is it just that you personally are not interested in that side of the debate?

i also happen to disagree with you that the religious aspect is a 'red herring', in fact almost entirely with your statement about the base causes of the conflict:

"The religous aspect is a red herring. Hamas aren't attacking Israel and visa-versa because they're Muslims and Jews, they're attacking them because they are being attacked themselves. The cause is anger and stupidity. Both sides are ineptly attempting to retaliate against the other or make themselves safer."

however, that is a much bigger discussion which i currently don't have time for.

i'm sorry if you feel we're discussing things that you deem irrelevant but i dont feel its that far off topic, if at all.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:you were the one who said that we must focus on the real conflict
perhaps your perspective on religion colors your view on what the real conflict is


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Surely my perspective on religion would drive me reach the opposite conclusion? umm



My position is that post-hoc analysis of the morality of the six day war is irrelevent at this current day, so I would prefer to focus on the present day and the sociological and emotional causes of the current conflict.

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1164381408)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:since you consider religion relatively invalid, then i thought perhaps you might consider it an invalid reason to fight and personal religious bias and perhaps that was wrong

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: faithinfire



since you consider religion relatively invalid, then i thought perhaps you might consider it an invalid reason to fight and personal religious bias and perhaps that was wrong



Whether or not it's invalid is irrelevent. I think anger and irrationality are invalid but those are factors I consider to be the largest driving factors in almost all conflicts.



Conversly I consider religion to have net negative effect, driving people to hold positions that are irrational or pernicious. If my views were being driven by that, then most likely I would take the same view of many other non-believers that religion is a driving cause of conflict, a position I disagree with.



Religion can act as a spark to conflicts, but it isn't what keeps it going.

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1164382448)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:why not?
religious views are relatively stable (in that they don't change but slowly over many years, usually)
so as more people are born it seems as if the religious war would have more troops
while this looks to be about a land dispute, there has been ongoing conflict because each thing they have a divine right to the land beside it being their home.
(let's not start the analogy again)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: coleman


i'm currently unhappy to accept yellfire's stance that israel were the foremost aggressors in the six-day war and have since then, been the equivalent of bully-like squatters in the region.




I'm sorry but I really don't think I said that. I agree that Israel was attacked in 1967 and that was the reason they invaded surrounding areas. But I cannot accept that as moral justification for their barbaric actions today and for the last 40 years and for the continued occupation. In many ways Israel / Palestine is like the last remaining European colony. European settlers colonising a foreign land and creating what for all practical purposes is an apartheid state. Arabs, even if they're Israeli citizens do not have the same rights as Jewish Israeli citizens, and that is largely accepted by the world.

I agree with Jeff on the religion issue. While religious differences can certainly fan the flames and motivate fanatics from both sides, for most people the important issues are real and perceived injustices that have little to do with religion. Its about people whose lives have been destroyed through forced evictions and the killings of family members. Thats where the real anger comes from, not because one group follows Moses and the other Mohammed.


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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:Just wondering if the Israel supporters here also support the American view that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist?

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=ct20030810102700522T600578


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


I disgree with your views on the ultimate causes of the conflict. Fundementalists may be motivated by such factors, but not the bulk of the population. I contest that the reason for the violence is anger at the other side, provoked by violent actions by said nation. Much like how in Ireland public support for the IRA resulted from negative actions by the British army.



are we assuming it is the bulk of the population involved


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!



Just wondering if the Israel supporters here also support the American view that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist?



http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=ct20030810102700522T600578






he was a terrorist? i thought he was a civil rights hero type

and it says that he not listed as terrorist, it appears to be the paperwork that causes the problem

seriously you think the general public thought he was a terrorist

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1164389455)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!


I agree that Israel was attacked in 1967 and that was the reason they invaded surrounding areas. But I cannot accept that as moral justification for their barbaric actions today and for the last 40 years and for the continued occupation. In many ways Israel / Palestine is like the last remaining European colony. European settlers colonising a foreign land and creating what for all practical purposes is an apartheid state. Arabs, even if they're Israeli citizens do not have the same rights as Jewish Israeli citizens, and that is largely accepted by the world.



thank-you - i understand your stance far better now.

i think that, given only your house analogy to base my opinion on, my evaluation of your stance on the role of israel in the region was pretty acceptable shrug

using analogies when they are not really needed and then refusing to state your actual opinion on an issue like this is always going to confuse the matter.


my question to you about the six-day war was never to provide a 'moral justification' for israel's actions.

it was posed as a direct to challenge your house analogy which you introduced to (as far as i can gather) make the point that israel's withdrawal from gaza was just a small concession towards what they should really be doing i.e. evacuating the region entirely (or 'giving the house back' in the terms of your analogy).

the house analogy was a bad one imo since it was "a ridiculous oversimplification of a very complicated situation" shrug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!


Just wondering if the Israel supporters here also support the American view that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist?

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=ct20030810102700522T600578




i'm not an 'israel supporter' but i will respond.

this is an age old debate:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/mideast/educators/militant/lesson2.html
br>

cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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