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Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:hug

You're not alone, lots of people are disturbed by the current situation. My friend is muslim and Lebanese, his family are all in Beirut and he can't help but feel mighty pissed at Israel and the US at the moment.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:"perhaps with every bullet fired, bomb detonated, home destroyed and family broken, we are not creating good will and harmony, but yet another generation of children who believe violence is the only way to solve the worlds problems."

-Michael Franti


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I'm more and more for my friend's suggestion, to get everyone who wants peace out of the country for a while, give the others all the weapons they want, and as soon as they're all dead clean the whole mess up and put the "nice" people back in.

Yeah, I know, it doesn't even work hypothetically...


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:What gets me is the innocent peple caught up in all this... of course they will start fighting, if they feel that their lives and their families lives are being threatened. That's what my Lebanese friend was saying, if things escalated he would consider going to Lebanon to fight as he sees it as protecting his family and his people.

He argues that Hazbollah were in decline in Lebanon anyway, if Israel and everyone else stayed away they would have disintegrated into a 'normal' minority political party within the next few years.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


sagetree
sagetree

organic creation
Location: earth
Member Since: 7th May 2006
Total posts: 246
Posted:in my opinion

there needs to be a cease fire now or things will get much worse. with more people dying on each side the situation seems to be spiraling in the opposite direction. so how can we get a cease fire? the bush/blair administration are currently at war against 'terrorism' so i doubt they would command a cease fire when they support isreal and isreal clearly expresses that they believe they are fighting terrorist. I heard this lady on the radio this morning saying that isreal is defending themselves against unprovoked attacks. it doesn't seem that way to me. from what i've heard isreal has thousands of palestinian prisoners and is killing civilians and conducting collective punishment. it would be nice if the powerful contries in the world would get together and stop the killing but it seems they are too busy perpetuating violence at the moment. does anyone really believe that peace is the result of war? /rant



The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Um, no. Not when people refuse to learn from the past.

Israel has no right to start bombing Lebanon under the guise of fighting 'terrorism'. It would be like England deciding to airstrike towns in northern Ireland because of the IRA.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Look to me like the current cabinate are more concerned with appearing "strong", than in seeking a rational solution. frown

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted: Written by: The Tea Fairy


Israel has no right to start bombing Lebanon under the guise of fighting 'terrorism'. It would be like England deciding to airstrike towns in northern Ireland because of the IRA.



Exactly. Saw in the paper today that the death count for Palestine hit 200+ (including about 10 from a hospital, A HOSPITAL) while Israeli casualties are at about 20.

I think the invasion of Iraq set a precedent, in that you can invade/attack a country if you don't like what's going on inside it. Especially for USA "allies".

I think the entire thing should be settled by gladitorial combat. 2 hand weapons of your choice and an opponent. Whoever wins gets the rights to Jerusalem et al.

Someone in the Israeli army said that they were going to have to "accelerate" their bombing schedule to get it all done by the time international criticism catches up (read: the USA telling them to back off).


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:What the Israelis are doing seems to have nothing to do with freeing kidnapped soldiers. It seems as if the kidnappings gave them a rather lame excuse to do something they were planning for a long time. With full American support of course, which makes it legitimate.

It is nonsense to say that Hamas or Hezbollah started the confrontation by kidnapping the soldiers, since the Israelis have been kidnapping or killing Palestinians almost every other day for the last 50 years.

And don't get me started about the Israeli travellers in Thailand, especially Koh Phangan. Most people who have had the good (?) fortune of running into them will have realised where the problem really lies. Just ask the Thai people what they think of them!



Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!


And don't get me started about the Israeli travellers in Thailand, especially Koh Phangan. Most people who have had the good (?) fortune of running into them will have realised where the problem really lies. Just ask the Thai people what they think of them!



Rightly or wrongly they did have a bad rap, I remember them being particularly cliquey


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:So the question is: what's the solution? Now, I'm a Jew and a staunch Zionist...and yet I have been horrified at the stance that Israel has taken again and again.

Now, you can't have Palestinian terrorists blowing up pizza parlors with kids in them and expect the Israelis to take that one lying down, but if you don't want violence to be the solution, then what is?

My solution: A wall. Yes. A wall. Like the Berlin Wall. Except this one in Israel.

"But that's horrible!" you exclaim. I respond "Yup. It's awful. Terrible. But it's the only solution that has a chance of working and it's a heck of a lot better than more fighting."

What about talks, then? Oh, PUHLEEZE. They started with that BS when I was a freshman in high school, over 15 years ago. See where it's gotten them? Both sides are way too hard-headed to talk. Talking isn't going to work.

So you separate them like the quarrelling children they are, let it simmer down for 20-30 years, and then when the next generation says "what was this all about, anyway?" you take down the wall.

If anyone has a better solution, I'm willing to listen, but it isn't "talks" or "peace." Been there, tried that, have the dead bodies to show for it.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:A wall could work, but only if it were built along Israel's legal borders. For that to happen Israel would have to withdraw from all occupied territory, i.e., all of the West Bank and part of Jerusalem. We all know what the chances of that happening are!


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Doc... don't like that idea. And no, I don't have a better one.

The Berlin Wall was:

- NOT built to stop East and West Germans from fighting. They weren't fighting, they didn't ask for the Cold War to be happening in their country (note: country, not countries). They had the same background and beliefs, were often of the same family, and didn't want to be in the East or West in the first place. Fair enough, they got themselves waist-deep with not stopping Hitler early enough, and the winners write the history and decide how a losing country has its new borders drawn, but the wall didn't even come directly after the war but years later.

- NOT built across a whole country. Yes, there was a strongly guarded border all through the country, and many people lost their lives trying to reach their relatives on the other side. But what conflict did it help stifle? What was the use for the people and for peace? Wasn't it rather that the situation of the 2 sides of the cold war each wanting to control their share of Germany contributed to the Cold War?

- NOT built because East or West Germans wanted it, but because Russia and the Western Allies that had their forces in Germany used the country as a buffer zone.

- NOT solving any conflicts, but causing lots of grief and leading to the situation we have today where East and West Germans still regard each other with suspicion because they were unable to communicate for decades despite being one nation.

- built in a city that had been divided between forces from Russia, USA, UK and France (because of course everyone needs a share of the capital rolleyes) as a symbol of the East not wanting anything of the decadent West, while really it was there to control people and to stop East Berlin people crossing over to where they didn't have to queue hours for everyday articles.

I cannot see how the situation could be anywhere near comparable to Israel and its neighbours, and how the Berlin Wall ever did my country any good, except as a symbol that luckily got torn down in 1989.

And even if you built a wall between Israel and the West Bank, and another one around Gaza making it an even happier place, what about the Golan Heights, and all the other borders with Arab countries? Build a wall around all of Israel? Would they like that?


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:FireTom, you seem to assume that some of us are ignorant idiots, whereas you know all the facts. I would urge you to read up a little more on Middle East history.

Most of us are aware the 'Palestine' was never a sovereign country. However the land on which Israel was created was certainly not uninhabited wilderness. Millions of 'Palestinians' were displaced when Israel was created, and even today there are five million Palestinian refugees living in sub-human conditions. But of course, it's the Israelis who need to 'put as many drugs into their brains' to get away from their terrifying reality, as you put it.

You refer to 'spiritual leaders' causing all the problems. Trust me, Hamas and Hezbollah are not spiritual movements, they're political movements. They do not exist because a group of people want to spread their religion to the rest of the world. They exist because people have been forced out of their homes and now live in enclaves that are high security prisons for all practical purposes. If someone invaded Germany and forced you out of your home, how would you react? Perhaps you would simply learn to speak French, move across the border, and live happily ever after. But trust me, not everybody is like that.



_Poiboy_
_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel
Member Since: 12th Jan 2004
Total posts: 1113
Posted:I live in israel, and i just wanna say that as much as i want to solve this thing in peace and talking, it just doesnt work, because the people giving us problems are terrorist organizations, who just do whatever they want and dont care about what the palestenian leaders tell them to do.

about what firetom said about the jews in germany, most jews of this generation know that today's germans have nothing to do with the holocaust, and even the germans that lived at the time of the holocaust, were mostly just afraid of the nazis, and weren't able to stop them even if they wanted.

now again about the whole conflict with lebanon and the arabs in general.
i dont hate arabs just because some of them are terrorists, i hate the guys who twist the words of the bible to make it look like it's good to explode in crowded places full of innocent men, women and children.
also world leaders are f*ckin children, they need to stop fighting other countries for oil and start developing their own countries.

anway, i hope that this whole thing ends soon, and that those terrorists would be disarmed, because the fact that suicide bombings have become such an everyday thing is really bad.



Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi FireTom to answer your questions Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way? Id say because they are all acting like five year old kids having a "tanty" , and it is about time they grew up and had a good long look at what they are doing, and why. Because no "opinion" could be worth this much blood shed.



I think it is time Israel , a first world country with a first world army, made the offer of peace.



Im absolutely horrified by what President Bush has been saying on and off the record; what a jerk! Clinton did much to stop Israel and Palestine from bickering, and perhaps he should be brought back to mediate, and spank a few bums spank





Poiboy, Israel is also acting like all other terrorist organizations. That's an important point to get.





frown


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


_Poiboy_
_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel
Member Since: 12th Jan 2004
Total posts: 1113
Posted: Written by: Stone


I think it is time Israel , a first world country with a first world army, made the offer of peace.





we have made the offer, and even when most countries accepted it, a few extremists decide they want to wipe israel off the map so the whole thing doesnt work

 Written by:

Poiboy, Israel is also acting like all other terrorist organizations. That's an important point to get.



if you're talking about some of the innocent people harmed, that's because terrorists dont fight like an army, they hide behind innocent people, we dont intentionally attack the innocent people, we're trying to get rid of some of their leaders and their weapons. the terrorists intentionally try to kill as many innocent people as possible, and doing suicide bombings in crowded restaurants, markets, malls etc.



MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:I don't think the violence in Isreal, the gaza strip, the area formerly inhabited by palestinians, or, really, most of the middle east is going to stop in any great hurry.

'Why? Why are you so negative?' i hear you ask.

Basically, it's becuase that whole region has been fighting in and amongst itself for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Fathers who've lost a brother raise their children to hate. Children who've lost a father learn why he's not coming home from work today, and hate. They grow up, and they kill someone's father, someone's brother. And the cycle continues. The same way it has since time immemorial.

Revenge, eyes for eyes, and all that. But say i went out and killed someone you knew and loved. But, through a loophole in the modern legal system, i walk away scot free. Given the opportunity to strike back without recrimination, how many amongst you would say that you wouldn't take it? Perhaps not death in return, but say i'm three sheets to the wind at the pub one night, bragging about it, and you're at the same pub with a soccer team worth of mates. how many people out there wouldn't put a boot in?

Now, imagine the same scenario. But, this time, our parents, grand parents, great grandparents etc. have been doing the same thing since before anyone alive can remember. It's become a way of life. You do get your soccer team worth of mates and you do kick the daylights out of me. Because that's whats done.

Walls, peace talks, wmds, oil. Nothing's going to change until there's a major mentality shift. And i really don't know what it'll take to make that happen.


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie


Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:it wont smile

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by:



 Written by:

Poiboy, Israel is also acting like all other terrorist organizations. That's an important point to get.





if you're talking about some of the innocent people harmed, that's because terrorists dont fight like an army, they hide behind innocent people, we dont intentionally attack the innocent people, we're trying to get rid of some of their leaders and their weapons. the terrorists intentionally try to kill as many innocent people as possible, and doing suicide bombings in crowded restaurants, markets, malls etc.





The Israeli military and secret services know full well that innocents will die in their attacks on terrorist targets.



MiG- good post; IMO also, the current state of conflict is just a expanded form of gang/family warfare.



I remember an interview with Sinead O Conner where she compared Ireland to an abused child. Like abused children have a tendency to do, it reacts with violence which is often directed to people who have no direct connection with the original abuse.



Of the terrorists in question, part of the reason they're using terror is because they lack the resources to fight for their cause via conventional warfare- this is fairly understanable: additionally, terror organisations naturally attract those with extremely violent tendenices, and those with physcopathic tendencies to hurt others.



And because, like Ireland, the Palestinian culture has been subjected to gross abuse over many generations, there are plenty of such individuals available.



When you've watched members of your family, who were completely innocent of any crime, brutalised/killed in Israeli attacks, and many other facing the daily humiliations imposed by not being able to travel freely in their homeland etc; it builds into an all-consuming hatred that can lead to extreme violence and suicide bombing.



The same is, of course, true for those in Israel who've lost family in bombings/shootings.



Having said all that, my feelings are that Israel is in a better position to take the lead in working for peace and should really reflect on the fact that launching revenge attacks in which innocent children are killed/maimed is, in the long run, simply perpetuating and inflaming the violence.



I think defence is necessary- when it crosses the line and becomes simply the direct cause of more violence, leading to more extreme 'defence', leading to.... etc, etc; then it's time to stand back and question the approach.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:I have a suggestion(s)...Simply move Israel as a country. No. seriously. Pick the whole place up and relocate it to the Australian outback. The climate and terrain are somewhat similar ( as opposed to the freezing conditions we could offer here in Canada, but....we do have the space )

I'm sure the Arab league would help pay for it, and Israel would save a fortune in military spending seeing as now they wouldn't have any enemies. If Israel can hack a viable country out of the desert like they did at the beginning of the last century, who's to say they couldn't do it again?

Either that...or Europe and America could conscript and send in hundreds of thousands of Liberals to "educate" Arabs and Israelis alike.

Drastic soulutions you say? Yes of course, but the status quo isn't getting much in the way of results now is it?



The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:ubblol

You've reminded me of that south park episode where Starvin' Marvin gets hold of a space ship and moves all the Ethiopian famine victims to Australia...


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted: Written by: stout


I have a suggestion(s)...Simply move Israel as a country. No. seriously. Pick the whole place up and relocate it to the Australian outback. The climate and terrain are somewhat similar ( as opposed to the freezing conditions we could offer here in Canada, but....we do have the space )

I'm sure the Arab league would help pay for it, and Israel would save a fortune in military spending seeing as now they wouldn't have any enemies. If Israel can hack a viable country out of the desert like they did at the beginning of the last century, who's to say they couldn't do it again?

Either that...or Europe and America could conscript and send in hundreds of thousands of Liberals to "educate" Arabs and Israelis alike.

Drastic soulutions you say? Yes of course, but the status quo isn't getting much in the way of results now is it?



Israel was originally offered Madagascar (I think...might have been somewhere else). They refused it. It's a Jewish nation and the importance of having the native land of Israel in the Jewish religion cannot be understated.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


 Written by:


 Written by:

Poiboy, Israel is also acting like all other terrorist organizations. That's an important point to get.



if you're talking about some of the innocent people harmed, that's because terrorists dont fight like an army, they hide behind innocent people, we dont intentionally attack the innocent people, we're trying to get rid of some of their leaders and their weapons. the terrorists intentionally try to kill as many innocent people as possible, and doing suicide bombings in crowded restaurants, markets, malls etc.



The Israeli military and secret services know full well that innocents will die in their attacks on terrorist targets.




You also have to look at it this way: the terrorists are hiding in civilian targets to use the civilians as shields. That way the only way of hitting the terrorists is to hit the civilians around them. And then that causes more outrage which recruits more terrorists.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by: Yellfire

FireTom, you seem to assume that some of us are ignorant idiots, whereas you know all the facts. I would urge you to read up a little more on Middle East history.

Most of us are aware the 'Palestine' was never a sovereign country. However the land on which Israel was created was certainly not uninhabited wilderness. Millions of 'Palestinians' were displaced when Israel was created,



The number of Palestinian refugees was 711,000 according to the General Progress Report and Supplementary Report of the United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine, Covering the Period from 11 December 1949 to 23 October 1950, published by the United Nations Conciliation Commission, October 23, 1950. (U.N. General Assembly Official Records, 5th Session, Supplement No. 18, Document A/1367/Rev. 1) Other estimates generally vary between 500,000 and one million.

To claim it is a number counted in millions (plural of million - thus indicating a number greater than one) is an outright lie. To make such claims when lecturing someone that they need to read up on Middle Eastern history is as worrying as it is comical.

A big part of the problem is the gross distortion of facts by both sides to indoctrinate their suffering peoples. So you hear people make audacious claims that either the land was a barren wilderness with only a few thousand inhabitants who subsequently bred like rats or inhabited by millions of Palestinians who were all driven off their land.

Incidentally there has always been an Arab population within Israel - those who chose to neither fight nor flee in 1948. Israel (not the occupied territories) has a population of over a million arabs - who reside in places such as Haifa - one of the few mixed cities in Israel which has always been seen as an example of how Jews and Arabs can peacefully coexist - and of course the recipient of a large number of Hizbollah rockets this week.

Otherwise I'm a little lost as to whether this thread is about Gaza or Lebabnon... They are very different situations.

Building walls is not an effective way of preventing either rocket attacks or Apache helicopter gunships.

frown


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: onewheeldave


 Written by:


 Written by:

Poiboy, Israel is also acting like all other terrorist organizations. That's an important point to get.



if you're talking about some of the innocent people harmed, that's because terrorists dont fight like an army, they hide behind innocent people, we dont intentionally attack the innocent people, we're trying to get rid of some of their leaders and their weapons. the terrorists intentionally try to kill as many innocent people as possible, and doing suicide bombings in crowded restaurants, markets, malls etc.



The Israeli military and secret services know full well that innocents will die in their attacks on terrorist targets.




You also have to look at it this way: the terrorists are hiding in civilian targets to use the civilians as shields. That way the only way of hitting the terrorists is to hit the civilians around them. And then that causes more outrage which recruits more terrorists.



Nevertheless, if that is the case (that terrorists use civilians as shields) the fact remains that the Israeli military/secret services know full well that innocent civilians will die in their revenge attacks, which is all that I was saying.

Whether killing innocent families and children is right or wrong, in that situation, is a seperate issue- I just think it's important to point out that, just as the terrorists are intentionally killing innocents to further their cause- so are the Israelis.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Great posts MiG and OWD



Doc, Israel is not totally innocent. You get back what you give out, and end up in this viscious "eye for an eye" circle of murder. There are other ways to stop terrorists than by killing civilians. Perhaps by showing some generosity.



I think peace would be easily reached if the Jewish nation got over the importance of Israel in the Jewish religion and stopped justifying slaughter with morals.



















ubbcrying


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning



Israel was originally offered Madagascar (I think...might have been somewhere else). They refused it. It's a Jewish nation and the importance of having the native land of Israel in the Jewish religion cannot be understated.



Whether Israel should have been set up in the middle east or not is another big issue.

IMO, with the benefit of hindsight, i feel that 'no' is the answer, and that that decision may well come to be seen, historically, as one of the worst decisions made by humanity in recent times.

Where the importance of the land of Israel being in the Middle East, to the Jewish religion, is concerned; IMO, it shouldn't have been a factor, any more than the disfunctional claims of any other fundamentalist and violence inciting religion should be.

Regions that others in this thread have suggested, such as Canada, America, Mexico, Australia- places where the displaced could be paid off (rather than simply evicted) and where the Jewish state could have existed in a non-war zone; would, with hindsight, clearly be far better.

To me, A jewish state based on the principle of a safe, secure home for the Jewish people, after the horrors they'd been subjected to throughout history, and particularly during the 2nd world war; is a very good thing.

That they basically rejected that, in favour of fundamentalist religious considerations and, in doing so, inflicted on the, then residents, of that region, similar atrocities that they had been subjected to; is a great shame.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:I think peace could be reached if organizations like Hamas weren't dedicated to the idea of conquering all of Israel and rejecting all offers of peace.

If you want to find a people justifying slaughter with religion, read the Hamas charter:

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
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The Palestinians have elected a party who, in their charter, claim: "There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."

Your suggestion is that Isreal can stop them with generosity?



GitasGuy
GitasGuy

Pooh-Bah
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 6th Jun 2006
Total posts: 2303
Posted:I just want to say that i think in this case Israel has seriously abused it military power over these nations. 1 man was abducted by Palestianian militants and Israel goes in with tank and war planes to blow up suspected targets. WTF!!!!! they still haven't got that 1 person back but i'm sure they've created alot more enemies and more collatoral damage.
Then 2 men are abducted by Hezbollah and the Israel military spend what has it been the last 8 days bombing everything in sight in lebanon. WTF!!!!!!! The Israelie ministry and to some degree MR BUSH have been waiting for an excuse to unleash on this area and these minor infridgements of abduction have been the catalyst to war. IMO this is just the beginning and you watch Syria and Iran become part of this!!!!
This is only my view i'm sure a number of you will disagree. Just don't blow me up along with the many civilian around me for stating a different view to YOU!!! biggrin


:admires giant wooden aeroplane: Its about time trees were good for something, instead of just standing their like jerks!!! ubblol ubbtickled

Homer rocks!!!! ubblol ubbrollsmile


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