Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Gremlin_Lou


Happy New Year you two....

*fingers crossed* something happens to him to make him see sense. Or get hit by a bus. I'm good for either.



At this point I'm ready for a 747 carrying the Israeli top brass to crash on top of the Hezbullah top brass. shrug


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:Lovely, Israel is defending itself again:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6131860.stm
br>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6128614.stm
br>
Attacks in Israel will undoubtedly follow...


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The_Pirate_Dyke_Boy
The_Pirate_Dyke_Boy

HOP Lord of the Pirate Admiralty
Location: Canterbury, UK
Member Since: 5th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1079
Posted:What pisses me off most is that its so convienient for people to forget that israeli citizens are attacked and killed also.
People seem to think that Israel is just a big monster that is just trying to kill arabs just because it can.
No one remembers the Israeli war of independance, which started all of this. Israel was attacked by no less than 5 countries. and from that the israelis took over what was palestine. Just as the Arabs tried to do to them. And no one remembers Egypt and Transjordan closing its borders to palestinian refugees.

Just as no one seems to remember the kidnapped soldiers or the fact that lebanon did next to nothing to stop hizbollah setting up their defences in the south (the lebanese army were in the north). And no one remembers the report of HIzbollah setting up a rocket launcher right next to a school. (i cant find it right now, im running out of time)

All im saying is its easy for people to forget truths just so they can attack Israel and then the US. If the Israelis learnt anyhting, its to kill their enemies before they get killed. what would you do if rockets started landing in your country from next door?
and dont give me the "proportionate response" crap. Fighting war as anything less than total commitment will always lead to failure (Vietnam, Iraq).

I mourn the loss of any human soul, but to stand by while your country is attacked is suicide. I just wish people would remember that Israelis are human too.

(sorry for the rant, but im so tired of defending Israel to people who know nothing about it, not that im saying thats any of you, obviously not. And yes, i am Jewish)


D.B.
X x X x X

Ship off the starboard! sound general quarters! noise and light discipline! man the cannons! GET ME THE RUM!

Master of the Free Hug Program

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:What goes around comes around pirate dyke boy.

Arabs are human too.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Thing is, Israel is now the invading force... and someone has to stop first...

Love is the law.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: The_Pirate_Dyke_Boy


What pisses me off most is that its so convienient for people to forget that israeli citizens are attacked and killed also.
People seem to think that Israel is just a big monster that is just trying to kill arabs just because it can.
No one remembers the Israeli war of independance, which started all of this. Israel was attacked by no less than 5 countries. and from that the israelis took over what was palestine. Just as the Arabs tried to do to them. And no one remembers Egypt and Transjordan closing its borders to palestinian refugees.

Just as no one seems to remember the kidnapped soldiers or the fact that lebanon did next to nothing to stop hizbollah setting up their defences in the south (the lebanese army were in the north). And no one remembers the report of HIzbollah setting up a rocket launcher right next to a school. (i cant find it right now, im running out of time)

All im saying is its easy for people to forget truths just so they can attack Israel and then the US. If the Israelis learnt anyhting, its to kill their enemies before they get killed. what would you do if rockets started landing in your country from next door?
and dont give me the "proportionate response" crap. Fighting war as anything less than total commitment will always lead to failure (Vietnam, Iraq).

I mourn the loss of any human soul, but to stand by while your country is attacked is suicide. I just wish people would remember that Israelis are human too.

(sorry for the rant, but im so tired of defending Israel to people who know nothing about it, not that im saying thats any of you, obviously not. And yes, i am Jewish)



I think that many of the people who condemn some of Israels actions are very aware of Isreali deaths and attacks by some Arab groups that target innocents.

It's just that, on balance, they believe that some of Israels actions either infringe on Human Rights and/or do not make things better, or that they make them worse.

I'm not offrering solutions here, just pointing out that much of what you've said above is not true-

 Written by:


No one remembers the Israeli war of independance, which started all of this.




A lot do remember the Isreali War of independance, yet still go on to condemn some of Isreals recent actions- and many would question whether that war 'started' all this, given that many dubious actions preceeded that war, including the initial displacement of Arabs to make way for Isreal to be set up in the first place.

Again, not wanting to offer opinions on the rights/wrongs of that, simply pointing out that, as I'm sure most here would agree, what 'started' this situation is nowhere near as clear cut as many claim.

My main point here is that I see a lot of people assuming that those who condemn Isreali actions are ignorant of Arab atrocities and attacks on Isreal- that there views are born of deep ignorance.

In reality, many are very aware of the atrocities on both sides and, in a reasoned, well-thought out manner, still feel it appropriate to condemn some of Isreals actions.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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The_Pirate_Dyke_Boy
The_Pirate_Dyke_Boy

HOP Lord of the Pirate Admiralty
Location: Canterbury, UK
Member Since: 5th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1079
Posted:Im never saying that everything the Israelis have done over the last 60 odd years has been right. A lot of what Israel has done i cannot defend at all. Like the use of Cluster bombs. I thought that kind of military thinking went out with bomber harris. But when everything Israel done is condemned it just drives me mad.

Im sorry to all of you for that rant, but like i said, im too used to fools who blindly sign up to the SWP just to "fight the system".

i just seems to me that everyone these days bashes Israel because its the done thing. Its like now Nazi Germany has gone, and Apathied has ended, and the cold war is over, people need a new country to be angry with.

Stone - what im saying is that to many people, Arabs are the poor undertrodden defencless people, and Israel is just a death state forever churning out weapons. It just feels to me that no one cares about the dying Israelis.

As for the "who started what", im not interested in that, its just few people these days remember that war, or the Yom Kippur war. Or the reasons for the Six day war.

I just hate how people follow any bit of counter-culture. i think thats what im raging about to be honest.


D.B.
X x X x X

Ship off the starboard! sound general quarters! noise and light discipline! man the cannons! GET ME THE RUM!

Master of the Free Hug Program

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The_Pirate_Dyke_Boy
The_Pirate_Dyke_Boy

HOP Lord of the Pirate Admiralty
Location: Canterbury, UK
Member Since: 5th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1079
Posted:this is what im talking about.

60 years of constant bloodletting means theres very little love lost between either side. Do you think for a second the Palestinians feel bad for ANY israeli killed? soldier or civilian?
The difference is Israel has a large functioniong army, where as Hamas and Hizbollah have small militia men (dont forget the number one stated aim of these 2 organisations is the DESTRUCTION of Israel and the Jewish people). Israel has bigger more powerful weapons, thats why theyre seen as the aggresors, but its 50/50 on who strikes first on the day to day basis. you cannot fight a partial war, its a sure way to lose.
"The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility."
- John Arbuthnot Fisher

I shake my head also at israeli actions (as ive said above), but no one shakes their head at the Arab actions.


D.B.
X x X x X

Ship off the starboard! sound general quarters! noise and light discipline! man the cannons! GET ME THE RUM!

Master of the Free Hug Program

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:well I do, Pirate... and if you would re-read the thread I guess we're not alone on this bb.

Problem is that Israel is not living up to it's response-ability and therefore looses more and more credibility (or is failing to rebuild it)...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Gremlin_Lou
Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 29th May 2005
Total posts: 131
Posted:The thing to remember here is intentions. Hamas and hezbollah have clearly stated that their intention is the destruction of the jewish state and the jewish people.

Israel does not want to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth.

This isn't israel's fault. In the peace agreements, it was written in that peace could onloy be achived if Jordan didn't get the West Bank back and eygpt didn't get Gaza, because they both believed the palestinains to be a waste of resources. Israel is in a no-win situation, what exactly would you like them to do Yell Fire?


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Gremlin_Lou

This isn't israel's fault.



That made me laugh, then frown.



There's something seriously wrong if you don't think Israel has at least some blame for the thousand or so people its killed this year in the war in Lebanon and continuing attacks in Palestinian towns.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:For me the difficulty here is the targeting of civilians, including women and children, who are neither responsible for, or capable of ending, the actions of terrorist and military actions.

Yes, Isreal has been victimised and her women and children have been brutally attacked.

To me, attacking innocent civilians is wrong and, the fact that Isreals civilians have been atacked does not, IMO, in this scenario, justify then doing the same back.

Last night on TV was a report on the recent incident where several hundred palestinians encircled, and climbed on a house that Israeli military had targeted for bombing.

To me that takes a lot of courage- Israel is known for not letting civilian deaths get in the way of, what they see to be a militarily advantageous kill.

Two weeks ago they gunned down women who they said were acting as human shields for terrorists.

The night-time image of hundreds of Palestinians protecting a house was pretty awe-inspiring and I'm really glad they reached that critical mass at which even Isreal knows that to kill that many, would end its credibility to the rest of the world. It was reminisent of Ghandis non-violent protesting.

I say this knowing full well what Israel has endured and been subjected to- it's just that killing civilians who had nothing to do with those attacks is, IMO, wrong.

Maybe if killing civilians would actually reduce attacks, then it could be justifed: but it doesn't, it just guarantees more recruits for terrorist/miltary organistions.

Currently nothing will end the attacks on and deaths of Israeli women, children and men.

If Israel ceases to target Palestinian civilians, that will not stop the attacks.

But neither will continuing them.

In the second world war, Hitler brutalised and exterminated Jews in Nazi death camps- the allies did not retaliate by setting up death camps for German POWs.

Some things are just wrong and, if they're wrong, a civilised nation shouldn't do them- the fact that their enemies have lost their moral decency is not justification for doing the same.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:So, Dave...

What should Israel do?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by:

What should Israel do?



How about not killing people?


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:ubblol

Is this the "Lets see if we can drive Lightning insane" thread?


Jeff, you're usually on the ball but this entire thread has been Mike BEGGING people for solutions and everyone saying "Israel should just make the terrorists stop without hurting anyone or anything else" as if there's some "Make the terrorists stop without hurting everyone else" button that Israel isn't pushing because they're having more fun pushing the "Kill People" button.

I'm not going to get into this argument specifically but I think it's really unfair to Mike to keep saying vague comments like "Don't Kill People." Anybody who thinks that Israel is just killing people for fun is severely oversimplifying the situation to the point of disrespecting a serious discussion.

It's unfair to Mike, My Poor Little Jew Friend. hug

wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:As you like, but it's fairly clear than a large amount of what Israel does is not rationally justified in any way shape or form. The unstated premise used is that all these operations being conducted make Israel safer, rather than just perpetrating a new cycle of violence. If that house had been demolished earlier, would that have made Israel safer, or simply created more terrorists and support for terrorism?

Ceasation of excessive military action, scrapping of jingoistic and rascist laws and policys and supporting law and order in Palestinian territory would massively cut terrorism. Bombing the place flat wouldn't.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


So, Dave...

What should Israel do?



To acheive what?

If the aim is an immedtiate or short/medium term end to violence, then there is no solution.

The violence will continue, IMO, nothing can stop it.

IMO, what Israel should do is stop targetting of innocent civilians.

I'm not here saying that all or most of Israels attacks are of that kind, but too many are.

The ceasing of such attacks will not end hostilities or cut down on attacks on Israel in the near future.

Neverthelss, IMO, Israel should not attack innocent civilians, for two reasons-

*it is wrong

that alone is sufficient reason, but there is a secondary one too

*it will almost cetainly facilitate the possibility of some kind of peaceful resolution in the (probably far) future.

Terrorists do not care- they will gladly use innocent civilians as shields against bombs.

Some civilians will actively participate in sheltering terrorists- they do so because they believe in the 'cause', most likely because they have lost lots of family in what they see as unjustified Israeli attacks.

Some are misguided and wrong, but the fact remains, thousands of civilians who were definitly, completely innocent have been wiped out by Israel (this obviously includes 100% of the young children and babies who have died).

And it is that which, IMO, probably more than any other factor, has ensured that today, there are plentiful civilians willing to shelter and assist Palestinian/Arab/Muslim violence mongerers.

If attacks resulting in substantial numbers of innocent women and children actually did lead to less attacks on isreal, or improve its defence, then, though I would still oppose them, i would understand why many who go ahead with them.

However, they don't. They do however, serve the terrorists very well indeed, by ensuring an unlimited supply of future recruits, funds from muslims around the world and by ensuring that Israel is seen as the bad guy my much of the civilised world.

Ceasing will not end attacks on Israel- I know that, I'm not confused about it.

The unfortunate truth is that Israel is going to be intermittently bombed over the next decade- nothing can stop that (IMO).

Attacks by Israel in response, in which more women and children/innocent civilians are 'collateral losses' will not stop it- they will IMO, prolong the situation.

 Written by: Doc Lightning


So, Dave...

What should Israel do?



Stop attacks in which substantial numbers of civilians, women and children, die.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: NYC


ubblol

Is this the "Lets see if we can drive Lightning insane" thread?


Jeff, you're usually on the ball but this entire thread has been Mike BEGGING people for solutions and everyone saying "Israel should just make the terrorists stop without hurting anyone or anything else" as if there's some "Make the terrorists stop without hurting everyone else" button that Israel isn't pushing because they're having more fun pushing the "Kill People" button.

I'm not going to get into this argument specifically but I think it's really unfair to Mike to keep saying vague comments like "Don't Kill People." Anybody who thinks that Israel is just killing people for fun is severely oversimplifying the situation to the point of disrespecting a serious discussion.

It's unfair to Mike, My Poor Little Jew Friend. hug

wink



I hope that my previous post doesn't leave me in that category- i hope that I've put forward my reasons effectively- I'm certainly not disrespecting a serious situation.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Groundhog day...

"innocent civilians" - we had this discussion before and - even though I totally agree on the subject - it's simply impossible to tell one from the other, especially if civilians are used as a shield.

I agree with most of what's been said - and share frustration that a solution seems to be further away than ever. I do not support the crude IDF military actions.

But we should try to be more discerning, instead of repeating the same old mantra: Israel is the only one to blame in this conflict, Israel is the only one to blame...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:For a clear and, I hope, indisputable example of 'innocent civilians, I'd say babies and children aged up to 5 would be, in anybodies eyes, innocent.

(and I do realise that as well as Palestinian children, Israeli children have also died).

For some of the practical aspects I outline above, it's worth pointing out that for civilians in grey areas, such as those intentionally choosing to acts as shields for terrorists, that what I, you, or we judge their intentions to be is less important than what they believe them to be.

If they believe that, in helping terrorists they are defending their families/homes, then you can argue they are simply wrong, but, there's no denying that killing them only adds to the future masses willing to do exactly the same, or to actually join the fighters.

 Written by:


But we should try to be more discerning, instead of repeating the same old mantra: Israel is the only one to blame in this conflict, Israel is the only one to blame...




Presumably you're not suggesting that holds true of me?

I have made as clear as I possibly can that I see both the Israeli and Arab factions as being equally responsible (plus of course, much of the West as well) for perpetuating this violence.

Killing Israeli innocents is totally wrong, as is killing Palestinian innocents.

Killing Palestinian innocents is not justified by the fact that Israeli innocnets were killed previously (and vice-versa).

============

I personally support Israel backing down on the violence first, because-

1. It's possible- relative to the collection of opposing Arab/muslim states/organisations/terror groups, they are more coherent, civilised (by Western standards) and open to reason.

2. They're better at killing, yes, Israelis are tragically killed, but not in anywhere the numbers that the civilians on the other side are.

3. From a worldwide perspective, they are seen as being supported by the West, which helped create the situation by facilitating the aquiring of the land in the first place, then building them into a leading military power.

The upshot of this is that the opposition are seen as 'underdogs' by many- freedom fighters making best use of inadequate resources, thus gaining sympathy (especially from Muslims).

Further, increasingly the West becomes a target for the bombings, for each innocent Palestinian family that is wiped out, more hatred is brought to bear not just on israel, but on the West as well.

As a Westener, I don't wnat to live in a war zone like the Israelis and Palestinians do.

Having looked at the situation in some detail, my current opinion is that, for Palestine, Israel, the West and the future of the entire world, the best thing for Israel to do is to focus more on ceasing actions that perpetuate this cycle of hatred.

I don't think they shouldn't defend themselves, only that they cease, or at least, cut back on, the actions that are killing relativley innocent civilians and children.

Cease the actions that are, at the very, very best, a temporary solution, but which go on to sustain and increase the hatred.

And, once again i will state- I know that Muslim (allegedly- i say this because of the increasing numbers of decent Muslims who deny that these killers are Muslim) terrorist killers of Israeli children are scum- but they're beyond reason; Israel isn't and so it is Israel that can make a difference.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:ya know, NYC, way way back I did briefly suggest a few long term approaches that could be developed to lessen or end terrorism/violence in the region.

Use of intelligence ( in all senses of the word wink), cultural exchanges, economic and social adjustments... I threw a few non- military possibilities on the table for discussion with no response whatsoever. Those kind of ideas would need peoples engagement and contribution to be developed further and outlined to a point someone might be able to discern if they had any chance of success. Without that it seemed silly to try and present them all myself. And so I dropped it.

Way back at that point, OWD offered some radical but interesting ideas as well...

But for now, I simply wanted to point out that just because you not chosen to acknowledge , develop or seriously considered the ideas people have presented does not mean that no one has offered any possibilities.

Or perhaps you are only interested in short range life saving solutions? Or big dramatic clearly defined and immediately successful ones? But surely if we had something that simple people would just be out there doing it...


**Essentially I agree with you though, that the whole point of this thread is obviously actually to make Mike CRAZY!!!! :;):

muhahahahaha hug hug


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


IMO, what Israel should do is stop targetting of innocent civilians.




Right. I get that. Then you went on into a rather verbose thread to say "stop targeting innocent civilians."

Ok. Moving past that...

What should Israel do? Sit there and do nothing?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Mike... umm rolleyes shrug meditate

OWD: No I wasn't pointing at you, as much as I didn't say that NO innocent civilians die in this conflict.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: onewheeldave


IMO, what Israel should do is stop targetting of innocent civilians.




Right. I get that. Then you went on into a rather verbose thread to say "stop targeting innocent civilians."

Ok. Moving past that...

What should Israel do? Sit there and do nothing?



On this board verbosity seems necessary as otherwise, as many have noted, people will run away with thier own interpretations of what the original poster has said.

My previous two posts do, IMO, answer your question; to summarise-

*Israel should cease targetting innocent civilians, because it is wrong

*This WILL NOT end Israels troubles in the near future

*It will, IMO, make things better for everyone, including Israel, in the more distant future

*Israel should continue to defend itself, when that defence does not include targetting innocent civilians

(as for what constitutes innocence, in this context, refer to my previous posts)


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning

What should Israel do? Sit there and do nothing?





Is that the only option that doesn't involve slaughtering civilians?



well, i'm not a military strategist, but it'd seem to me that the highly publicised Isreali offensives that cause so many casualties are generally due to deployment of explosive munitions in so-called "surgical strikes".



This is due to a fairly simple choice made in regards to the relative values of life of: israeli military personnel vs palestinian civilian



Modern warfare seems to be leaning toward placing more value on the lives of military personnel, and therefore reducing the relative value of life of a non-combatant. Meaning a reduction in actual "surgical strikes" of the type carried out by highly trained troops putting their lives at risk (google the history of the UK's Special Air Forces for some examples), and an increase on blowing stuff up from a distance.



The question is, how much does one side risk the lives of it's military personnel in order to maintain the safety of the other sides non-combatants?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


To me, attacking innocent civilians is wrong and, the fact that Isreals civilians have been atacked does not, IMO, in this scenario, justify then doing the same back.

Last night on TV was a report on the recent incident where several hundred palestinians encircled, and climbed on a house that Israeli military had targeted for bombing.





This seems to pretty well contradict the fact that Israel is TARGETING innocent civilians.

If a house is targeted and innocent civilians run onto it I don't see how that's targeting innocent civilians. I also don't see how hitting people that are acting as human shields for terrorists is 'targeting' them.

A human shield makes a decision to be a human shield to avoid being killed/family killed/etc... Once that decision is made they must face the consequences and I've always maintained that fault goes to those who are making them choose, not those who pull the trigger.

If I was held at gunpoint during a bank robbery and the robber said I could be used as a human shield, I'd do it. If the cops saw that this guy was going to use me as a shield and go into a school and start shooting kids I would support them taking action. Even if that action meant shooting at me.

And even if the kids were Jewish.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Palesteinian death tole of last four months in Gaza:

Total: 247 fatalities

155 civilian deaths

57 deaths of children

996 wounded, including 337 children (34%)

Source: Physicians for Human Rights (28 June to 27 Oct)



Most of those killed have been civilians.



My guess is that even the Israeli army isn't callous enough to just kill hundreds of civilians in one go anymore (or are getting image concious), but they certainly don't seem concerned about smaller numbers.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


*Israel should continue to defend itself, when that defence does not include targetting innocent civilians




Finally you said what Israel *should* do instead of what it should *not* do.

Now... Good plan. How do you propose Israel defend itself without hitting innocent civilians?

Incidentally, Israel has NEVER targeted innocent civilians. They've hit them plenty to be sure, but never targeted them.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:does either side also try to keep look outs and weapon stores in civilian locations, because that could be an added speedbump
i believe in iraq they do that because then people don't want to hit those targets...i remember seeing the kids in class and there were guns everywhere
are these same tactics employed? if so then, what should they do


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Oh yes, Faithinfire. Hamas and Hezbollah have this nasty tactic of launching rockets out of the middle of playgrounds, family homes, etc. They hide among the civilians and then the Israelis cannot shoot back without risking killing civilians.

And so it always makes Israel look like the bad guy because they follow the normal rules of war (wear uniforms, make it clear which vehicles are civilian and which aren't, etc.).


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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