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Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Sean_Matt


Sean_Matt

Member
Location: Upstate, NY

Total posts: 9
Posted: Written by: FireTom



sorry guys




don't ever be sorry..it waist's ttime-o....and btw "the dishes won't do themselves" -anyomonus


I TRY TO MAKE MY VOICE HEARD, BUT I KEEP ON ENdING UP, FEELING LIKE A TURD.

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol, New Zealand

Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by: Hassan Nasrallah


"If there was a one percent possibility, we would not have done that. We would not have done any capturing."





so does that make him a bad liar or just an idiot

or is he alledging that Hezbollah have an ubercomputer which gave them statistical advice that capturing and killing Israeli soldiers only had a 0.01% chance of sparking retributary action

ubbloco

or perhaps god told him. and as god is infailable Nasrallah has now lost his faith and is considering liquidating Hezbollah (or complying with UN resolutions calling on them to disarm)

ubblol


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I dont think he is the only IDIOT is he dream?

I think most people consider Nasrallah is telling the truth about underestimating the consequence of capturing a couple of Israeli soldiers. I think most sane people were disgusted by the Israels overreaction. How many innocent civilians were killed i during Israels ego driven rampage through Lebanon? Which, incidentally did look like an excuse to attack.

As for the blasphemy, dont all the children of Abraham believe in the same God? So are you dissn your own GOD?

frown


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:No, Stone, they don't.

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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:Yeh same G!d, only if you read the Qu'ran, He's decided that he no longer likes the Jews as they are all the descendants of pigs and monkeys!

Its worrying that many many people in the Arab world will believe what Nasrallah is saying about Israel wanting to attack anyway - its a stupid idea, Israel has enough to deal with as it is.

Maybe all this will end, when it stops being taught in Arab school that all Jews are evil!


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Gremlin_Lou



Yeh same G!d, only if you read the Qu'ran, He's decided that he no longer likes the Jews as they are all the descendants of pigs and monkeys!



Pehaps you would be so good as to give me the passage where it says that so I can check it against my own copy. I can find passages where it chides them for a wide variety of acts ranging from rudeness to theological disputes, but nothing of that nature. It would seem strange since one of Islam's most holy prophets was Jewish.



On the subject of theology, all religions of Abrihamic descent worship the same god, thought to have developed from the Ugaritic god Yaw, later becoming Yahweh in the later religion of ancient Hebrew. Christianity and Islam both hold that this is the same god as Judaism, but that their prophets/messiah has given them the true way. It's a common misconcpetion that Allah is not the same as Yahweh/Jehova. Allah simply means "the only god" in arabic.



Reading this thread makes me feel like crying.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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_Poiboy_
GOLD Member since Jan 2004

_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel

Total posts: 1113
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


Christianity and Islam both hold that this is the same god as Judaism, but that their prophets/messiah has given them the true way. It's a common misconcpetion that Allah is not the same as Yahweh/Jehova. Allah simply means "the only god" in arabic.



basically some of the muslim prophets along the way really hate jews. and also there's the fact that any deranged [censored] who wants to commit genocide on another people/religion, can do so by claiming that god talks to him and told him that jews are infidels (even though they believe in him and worship him and all) and since when islam started god told muhammad to kill all the pagans (which he called infidels), all jews must be killed. (note there are people just as bad as these guys that are christians or jews. it's just that muslims are the only ones that take them seriously when they go crazy.)

 Written by: yell fire


Since military service is compulsory in Israel, technically ALL adult Israelis (except for the handful in jail for refusing to join the army) are genuine military targets, not civilians. What's worse is that these adult Israelis (i.e., military personnel who would eventually be called on to attack Lebanon if the need arose), 'round up' civilians (Israeli children who have not done military service), and hide behind them, using them as a shield.



that's just disgusting dude... seriously. thats like if i said that the lebanese children deserved to be killed because they are all raised in hizbullah schools and taught that the jews are evil and should be killed.


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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:The "monkey and pig" insult comes from 5:60. Although Muslim leaders have repeatedly called Jews and Christians monkeys and pigs, the brothers of monkeys and pigs, the sons of monkeys and pigs, and the grandsons of monkeys and pigs, I do not think the Koran really supports this insult. I think that particular passage is saying that it was pagans, not the "people of the book," who were transformed by Allah into monkeys and pigs, and the Muslim is supposed to point to that fact when Christians and Jews show disdain for Islam.

As to Allah being the same as Yahweh, one need merely to compile a sufficiently detailed list of characteristics to show that they are not the same.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Patriarch917

Allah is the Arabic language word referring to "God", "the Lord" and, literally according to the Qur'an, to the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" in the Abrahamic religions. It does not mean "a god", but rather "the Only God", the Supreme Creator of the universe, and it is the main term for the deity in Islam.

Most Arabic-speaking Muslims, Christians and Jews (including the Yemenite Jews, several Mizraḥi communities and some Sephardim) use " Allah " as the proper noun for "God". Allah is found in the Qur'an and in Arabic translations of both the Tanakh and the Gospels and even in the Indonesian translations of the Bible.

Outside the Arab world, the use of " Allah " is associated with Islam, and is used to refer specifically to the Islamic concept of God. It is the same as the Jewish conception of a single God, but differs from the Trinitarian Christian conception of God.

Islamic scholars often translate " Allah " directly into English as "God", especially Qur'an Alone Muslims. Other scholars feel that " Allah " should not be translated arguing that " Allah" is the term for "the Only God" in a glorified pronunciation

Ref wiki


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol, New Zealand

Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by: Stone

As for the blasphemy, dont all the children of Abraham believe in the same God? So are you dissn your own GOD?






my god??? what the hell are you talking about?

ubbloco

are you back on the crack again?


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol, New Zealand

Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by: Yell Fire

Since military service is compulsory in Israel, technically ALL adult Israelis (except for the handful in jail for refusing to join the army) are genuine military targets, not civilians. What's worse is that these adult Israelis (i.e., military personnel who would eventually be called on to attack Lebanon if the need arose), 'round up' civilians (Israeli children who have not done military service), and hide behind them, using them as a shield.







Thats similar to the justification Hamas have always given for targeting Israeli civilians.

The difference is that Hamas claim that as a child (or unborn baby) will have compulsory military service later in life it can therefore be designated a valid military target.

eek


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Tom..Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you changing your opinion here? So far I've been under the impression that you were condemning Israel for their actions against Hizbullah, and now you appear to be admitting that they had no other choice, and the actions taken lately will serve to reduce the overall casualty rate in this continuing conflict?

If so,,then I agree with you.


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Tom, I did read your first post, and all posts on this thread. I just thought I might have been seeing a turnaround here, and I was curious as to why.

I condemned Hizbulla, and their "guerilla" tactics right from the start, hiding among a civilian population and knowing exactly how a conflict would play out in the media is a cowspoo method of fighting a "war" IMO. Of course there's going to be "collateral damage" that's the point. I'm still at a loss as to how the Lebaneese gov't could allow an organization such as Hiz to exist within their borders. IMO they're just as guilty as Hiz and Israel when it comes to protecting the lives of their citizens. Maybe their just ineffectual, that's all, i don't know.

And the lives of "innocent' civilians has what this thread has mostly been about.

I've never been critical of Israel's conduct in this conflict, because I realize that they don't have many options when dealing with and outfit like Hiz ( sure, they could try to talk it over, but we all know how effective that would be ) and IMO an outright attack under the watchful eyes of the world is a "better" tactic than sending in the Mossad in for a bunch of covert "wet work"

I agree that not many people in the western world know "what's going on" which is why I value insights like PoIboy's and GremlinLou's as I feel they provide actual uncensored information without an agenda to push, unlike the mainstream media.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:dream, to answer your question, this is what I was talking about:

 Written by:

or perhaps god told him. and as god is infailable Nasrallah has now lost his faith and is considering liquidating Hezbollah (or complying with UN resolutions calling on them to disarm)ubblol



If you dont understand what u said, then perhaps you should get a grown-up to explain it to u.






I know me bad spank lol


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: Poiboy


that's just disgusting dude... seriously. thats like if i said that the lebanese children deserved to be killed because they are all raised in hizbullah schools and taught that the jews are evil and should be killed.



Thats disgusting is it? You ignore the fact that I was only responding to someones comment that its okay to bomb a hundred innocent Lebanese people just because there is one Hezbollah operative in their midst. I was merely trying to explain that there is more than one way of looking at a situation, and that the way you justify Arab civilian deaths, other people could justify Israeli civilian deaths.

I think it is disgusting that you constantly defend Israeli actions, even though they result in the deaths of innocent people and at the end of the day nothing is achieved.

I think it is disgusting that Israel used cluster bombs in civilian areas, mostly in the last 72 hours of the conflict, and these cluster bombs continue to kill innocent children. Please explain how this can be explained away as defending Israel. I have no doubt than you have a justification, because you always do.

I think it is disgusting that these bombs are supplied by the US, and I think it is disgusting that the US turns around and questions Chinas human rights record.

I think it is disgusting that Israel kidnaps thousands of Arabs and holds them for years without charge, but when two of their soldiers are kidnapped they go on a rampage and kill over a thousand innocent people.

I think that it is disgusting that Israel converts Indians to Judaism and settles them on illegally occupied land.

I think it is disgusting Israel diverts water away from Palestinian villages and supplies it to illegal settlements and farmland.

I think it is disgusting that if Arab Israelis marry someone from the occupied territories, their spouse is not allowed to settle in Israel.

I think it is disgusting that the Americans consider Arial Sharon (aka The Vegetable) to be a man of peace despite his role in the Sabra and Shatila massacres.

I think it is disgusting that you can ignore all this, and still complain when someone makes a statement that is remotely anti Israel, branding them as anti semetic.


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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:Can I have some proof of the above statements please? Judaism is not and never has been a protelyzing faith. Conversion is discouraged. I should know, i'm a convert, because I couldn't prove my lineage.

Yiou know how long it takes to convert? Between 2 and 7 years! Israel DID NOT convert Indians to Judaism, its complete rubbish!

In reference to the water: http://www.freeman.org/m_online/nov99/atlas.htm
because I can't be bothered typing it out.

At least Ariel Sharon made an effort unlike Yasser Arafat. I do believe Sharon started pulling out of the occupied terriroes?


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol, New Zealand

Total posts: 493
Posted:Stone...

I laughed at you because you claimed i was 'dissin my own god.' As i dont believe in a deity i found your nonsensical comment quite amusing.

It shows how little you know (about me), how ready you are to make wild assumptions with no factual basis, and how thoroughly detached from reality your pathogenic epistemology is.

In short, take away the brackets and it summed up your input on this thread fairly aptly.



Lou

 Written by:

At least Ariel Sharon made an effort unlike Yasser Arafat. I do believe Sharon started pulling out of the occupied terriroes?



Pulling out of Gaza involved removing 8,000 settlers who were an economic liability, requiring 24 hour military protection... That amounts to a whopping 3% of the Israeli settler movement.

While removing even a token number of settlers from Gaza briefly threatened civil war in Israel and split the Likud party, it was accompanied by assurances from Sharon that the vast majority of the settlers in the West Bank would always remain part of Israel.

At Camp David, Saudi Prince Bandhar remarked that if Arafat turned down the offer of 97% of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem (with stewardship of the Islamic quarter of the old city) as a capital that it would be more than a tragedy, it would be a crime. The reason, Bandhar went on to say was that if Arafat refused the offer Barak would be voted out and the best offer from Sharon would be 50-60% of the West Bank, and no East Jerusalem. His analysis has proved reasonably acurate.

Arafat was a massive wanker who screwed over his own people for personal benfit... Sharon was a massive wanker who (allegations of personal corruption aside) screwed over the Palestinians.

Its why its hard not to have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians who just get continually screwed by point scoring politicians on both sides.

In much the same way that a lot of Lebanese have just been screwed by Hizbollah and the Israeli army.




Yell

Your comment on converting Indians is completely unbelievable.

It's similar to earlier comments you've made on the thread such as 'millions of Palestinians being displaced in 1948'... They just aren't true.

You seem so disgusted with Israel that you are willing to provide arguments which to anyone with reasonable knowledge of the situation appear plainly ridiculous. Its not a case of me thinking you're anti-semetic and deliberately spreading false accusations about Israel, just that you appear very poorly informed.

You're right in saying that the Israeli government has some policies which are (in my opinion) disgusting, but when you start creating false accusations and creating a black and white binarised conflict between the evil Israelis and the valient Palestinians/Arabs (who are somehow justified in targeting civillians) you lose any sense of credibility.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hey dream, I don't know your beliefs that's why I asked the question. ie. it was a question not a statement. Perhaps, you should actually read what is written, before jumping to conclusions.



Good grief Gremlin Lou, Ariel Sharons visit to the Temple Mount precipitated the Second Intifada. I saw that walk on the television, and it was one of the most arrogent incidents I've ever witnessed. His action was criminal.

EDITED_BY: Stone (1157060726)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted:No, I did not just dream it up:

In 1979, Shavei Israel, (formerly Amishav) an Israeli organization devoted to locating the lost tribes of Israel, heard about a group in India claiming descent from Israelites. Members of Amishav led by Rabbi Avichail traveled to India to investigate and the organization has since been an advocate for them, helping them to convert officially to Orthodox Judaism and migrate to Israel. Shavei Israel is currently led by Michael Freund, a former government communications director.

The Bnei Menashe's claims gained credence in the 1980s when a self-taught researcher purported to have discovered similarities between their ancient animist rituals and those of Biblical Judaism such as sacrifices. Acclaimed US-Israeli writer Hillel Halkin travelled to India to meet the Bnei Menashe and has written an entertaining book about his adventures called Across The Sabbath River.

Although the claims of Israelite descent are rejected by the majority of Mizo-Kuki-Chin and Jewish anthropologists, the Bnei Menashe are unshakeable in their belief. Some 1,000 have since migrated to the Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. Learning Hebrew has been their biggest challenge, especially for the older generation who are used to their Indian dialects. The younger ones have had more opportunities including army service and helping to care for old people in hospitals.

On March 31 2005, Sephardi Rabbi Shlomo Amar, one of Israel's two chief rabbis, announced his acceptance of the Bnei Menashe's claim based on their exemplary devotion to Judaism rather than any historical evidence. His acceptance was significant because it would permit the Bnei Menashe to enter Israel under Israel's Law of Return.

In July 2005, the Bnei Menashe of Mizoram completed building a mikvah, or a Jewish ritual bath, under the supervision of Israeli rabbis in order to begin the process of conversion to Judaism. Shortly after, a similar Mikvah was built in Manipur. Those Bnei Menashe who wish to (re)join the Jewish people are required to undergo Orthodox conversions, and every effort is made to ensure that they are accepted according to the strictest interpretation of Jewish law. In mid 2005, with the help of the local council of Kiryat Arba and Shavei Israel, the Bnei Menashe opened its first community center in Israel.

When Prime Minister Ariel Sharon announced his plan for the disengagement of Jewish settlements from the Gaza Strip and several settlements in the West Bank, the Bnei Menashe community took it especially hard. Most of the Bnei Menashe community in Israel have settled in the disputed territories. In fact, before Israel's withdrawal, the Bnei Menashe were the largest immigrant community in Gaza [1].

The Bnei Menashe left in India worried about family members in Israel who they feared were in the middle of violent confrontations between settlers and IDF soldiers. They were also concerned because they thought of Gaza as their future homeland once they made Aliyah. Although a group of Bnei Menashe from Gaza moved to northern Israel claiming it is geographically similar to their native India, most stayed with their fellow settlers during the disengagement.

http://www.answers.com/topic/bnei-menashe


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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted:On the topic of water:

Of the water available from West Bank aquifers, Israel uses 73%, West Bank Palestinians use 17%, and illegal Jewish settlers use 10%.

While 10-14% of Palestines GDP is agricultural, 90% of them must rely on rain-fed farming methods. Israels agriculture is only 3% of their GDP, but Israel irrigates more than 50% of its land.

Three million West Bank Palestinians use only 250 million cubic meters per year (83 cubic meters per Palestinian per year) while six million Israelis enjoy the use of 1,954 million cubic meters (333 cubic meters per Israeli per year), which means that each Israeli consumes as much water as four Palestinians. Israeli settlers are allocated 1,450 cubic meters of water per person per year.

Israel consumes the vast majority of the water from the Jordan River despite only 3% of the river falling within its pre-1967 borders. Israel now diverts one quarter of its total water consumption through its National Water Carrier from the Jordan River, whereas Palestinians have no access to it whatsoever due to Israeli closures.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/water.html


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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted:There is no reason for Palestinians to claim that just because they sit on lands, they have the rights to that water.

Mr. Katz-Oz, Israels negotiator on water issues [1]


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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol, New Zealand

Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by: yell fire

I think that it is disgusting that Israel converts Indians to Judaism and settles them on illegally occupied land.



Sorry I'm a bit lost here...

You find it disgusting that an ethnic minority from asia with similar rituals and mythology to Judaism, who vehemently claim to be of Jewish Ancestry - so much so that they are willing to go through a difficult conversion process - are allowed to be officially classified as Orthodox Jewish? If so I have to ask, what right do you have to govern those people's beliefs?

Alternatively, you find it disgusting that they have moved onto Occupied territory. Which makes a lot more sense but raises the question why is it worse for them to settle there than any other Jewish settlers?


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: dream


Alternatively, you find it disgusting that they have moved onto Occupied territory. Which makes a lot more sense but raises the question why is it worse for them to settle there than any other Jewish settlers?



It goes without saying that I find the settlement of any Jews on illegally occupied territory disgusting. However actually converting non-Jews to Judaism and then settling them, in my opinion, underscores Israel's expansionist policies.

You may be aware that one of the (more amusing?) results of this policy has been the settlement of Russian neo nazis in Israel.
http://www.pogrom.org.il/eng_articles.php?art_id=7
br>
And why stop at Indians and Russian neo-nazis? The Pathan tribes in northwestern Pakistan and Afghanistan also claim Israeli descent, and there is actually some anthropological evidence to support their claim. In other words, the Taliban are actually originally Jewish, so perhaps they too should be converted and settled in Israel.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/10/20/MN.DTL


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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:If these people truly believed they were of Jewish descent, and wanted to convert and settlr in the Holy Land then wheres the freaking problem?

Its not like Israel was forcibly converting people, like say, oh I duno, Islam and Xtianity have done in the past.

These people believed they were truly Jewish, and there was evidence to prove it. Once they were converted they could settle anywhere they wanted - they were not forced to settle in the Occupied Terrortries! There is NO difference between these people and born Israeli's in where they can settle.

Oy Vey!


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol, New Zealand

Total posts: 493
Posted:agrees with Gremlin Lou.

Yell, thank you for posting links to your sources.They're most entertaining... the blind leading the blind... sometime when i'm less busy i'll write something up on them. they're about as 'fair and balanced' as Fox News... which is what they're meant to provide a counterpoint to.

Unfortunately I don't feel that providing an equally one-sided account of things with glaring distortions of the truth and cherry picked historical events is of much use to anyone.

The Pogrom site's hillarious. I take it you put that there as a joke?


And Yes... The Taliban are Jewish in the same way that humans are single celled organisms.

ie they were... then they gradually and collectively changed over a period of time and became something else.

The difference is that cultural evolution is probably more reversible than biological evolution. If the Pashtuns renounced Islam, started reading the Torah and practicing Judaism they would become Jewish again.

However as they currently practice another religion, with practices and concepts which directly contradict Jewish positions they are not currently Jewish.

the idiots are indeed winning

frown


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

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Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted:Gremlin, as long as you agree that it is disgusting that Israel settles anyone on illegaly occupied land, I can live with that. Even today there was a story on the BBC website about Israel building 700 new homes in the West Bank. Way to go! Demolish Palestinian homes, build new homes for Jewish settlers, then act surprised and outraged when people fire crude rockets at the settlements. And then if anyone dares to be critical of what you're doing, rant on about how they're anti-semetic racists.

Dream, the Pogrom site is indeed hillarious, as is the fact that there are now neo-nazi Israelis in existence.


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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Yell, what to say?

May I suggest you get your wording right?

"illegally occupied land" is the first term that I would like to tackle: Those territories were occupied, after the Arab nations around Israel attacked it without proper reason. This land was lost due to wars, which were not started by Israel... Likewise Germany could accuse a few surrounding countries to "own illegal occupied (German) territories since WWII"... ? Where does that lead to?

Nobody wants to convince you to like or even to understand Israel, or it's policies. IMHO It turns out to be that you have a very deep rooted aversion, at least against the nation of Israel (for whatever reason). Maybe you have painted YOUR picture of the world and how it works, maybe by questioning these fundamental beliefs of yours, the entire picture is rocking?

"Israeli Nazis"... even if this was true, I'm still more concerned about "Hippie-Nazis"... umm


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

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Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by: Yellfire

if anyone dares to be critical of what you're doing, rant on about how they're anti-semetic racists.

Dream, the Pogrom site is indeed hillarious, as is the fact that there are now neo-nazi Israelis in existence.



ubblol ubblol ubblol

your first sentence explains the second one.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted:FireTom, it's not for me or you to decide what is and what isn't illegal. We all have our differing opinions, but the fact is that Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a breach of the Geneva Convention and numerous UN resolutions. I will not bother to give you a source for that, since you simply have to do a google search and you will come up with numerous sites on the subject. Some of these sites state what most of the world thinks, i.e., the settlements are illegal, and other sites state the Israeli and American position on the subject which is a little different (the American position has been changing over the years). The events that led to the areas being occupied do explain the reasons for occupation, but unfortunately they do not make the settlements more legal under any law, which is what you seem to be implying. I'm not an expert, but I do not think that the law generally works like that. The events may justify the initial invasion, but in my opinion they do not justify the systematic demolition of Palestinian homes and the settlement of Jews in their place.

So if you believe that the Geneva Convention and UN resolutions form a legal framework under which the world does / should function, then the settlements are illegal. If you believe that the Geneva Convention and UN resolutions mean nothing, then I can't really argue with you.

As for Russian Neo-Nazis in Israel, do a bit of research and you will come up with the facts. A few years back an Israeli army officer was fired for being a Neo-Nazi, and there have been other documented cases too.

As for Hippy Nazis, I must say I too am surprised at the number of homeofpoi members who have extremely right-wing political views. Not so surprisingly, most of them are based in the US.


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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted:FireTom, A summary by the BBC about the occupied territories and how they relate to the Geneva Convention is given below. But I suppose this is all just poo coming out of someone's rear end, because in your not so humble opinion, the occupation is 100% legal!!! ubblol



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It is widely accepted that under international law, the Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel are illegal.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states:



"The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."



Within the international community the overwhelming view is that Article 49 is applicable to the occupation of East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.



The United States has in the past called the settlements illegal, but has more recently used milder language, at least in public.



However, the Mitchell report into the causes of Palestinian-Israeli violence that began in September 2000 said:



"...customary international law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention, prohibits Israel (as an occupying power) from establishing settlements in occupied territory pending an end to the conflict."



Israel argues that the international conventions relating to occupied land do not apply to the Palestinian territories because they were not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state in the first place.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1682640.stm

EDITED_BY: Yell fire! (1157463133)


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