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Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: FireTom


But why? The Muslims didn't want the Jews in the region to have their own state - FOR WHATEVER FRIGGIN REASON. It's an aversion based on religious faith, on anti-semitism. There is NO other reasonable explanation.




Er, perhaps the forced eviction of a large resident population to make way for European settlers was the reason?? Or is that still not a good enough FRIGGIN REASON for you? Or are you one of those people who believe that the land that Israel now occupies was an uninhabited holy wasteland just waiting to be occupied by the chosen people??? rolleyes


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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:As Israel has done before, and in accorance with security resolution 232 (i think), Israel will trade land for peace. It did it with eygpt and jordan.

When people stop blowing cafe's and pizza parlours up, and the democratically elected party begin to recognise Israel and want to open negotiations, then there will be land exchange.

But, Yell, do you honestly expect Israel to hand over land without any proof that the attacks will cease? I certainly wouldn't.

And maybe next time, Arab countries won't invade Israel for no good reason except to wipe the Jews off the earth and drive them into the sea. As i've stated before, you simply can't invade somewhere and then whine and moan when you lose and they take your land.


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted:Gremlin, take a look at these statistics and tell me again that Israel has always, and still does intend to return occupied land in return for peace:

West Bank:

1966: 0 settlers
1972: 800
1983: 22800
1993: 111600
2004: 231800 settlers

Parts of Jerusalem occupied in 1967:

1966: 0
1972: 9200
1983: 75000
1993: 130000
2004: 177000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#Population
br>
Considering these stats, why for one second would Palestinians believe that if they stop blowing up cafes they will get their land back? This increase in settlers is a result of government policy. You may disagree but it seems to me that Israel never intended to return the West Bank or Jerusalem. And please don't bring up Israel's withdrawal from Gaza here. Permanently annexing Gaza simply wasn't economically feasible, hence the number of settlers never went over 8000, a tiny number compared to the West Bank and Jerusalem. Israel withdrew from Gaza because of its own interests, not because it wanted to be nice to the Palestinians.


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_Poiboy_
GOLD Member since Jan 2004

_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel

Total posts: 1113
Posted:yellfire look, we gave gaza, we had about a month or two at most of quiet from the terrorists, and then they keep attacking us. i dont see how can you support their attacks, instead of blowing up cafe's and pizza parlours they could just acknowledge the fact that israel is a state, and is based on a UN resolution, and then start negotiating. Ehud Barak wanted to give the palestinians all the parts of israel we took during the 6 day war, they kept bombing us and Barak quit. if they stopped this bs and acknowledged israel's right to exist, they would have a country by around 4 years ago. but no, they choose to elect madmen who say israel has no right to exist and that they want us wiped out.

and what you call occupied land, is the land we won when the arab countries around israel attacked us in failed attempts to wipe israel out.

and yell, let me ask you, why for one second would palestinians believe that if they keep blowing up cafes they'll get the land we won back?

without those crazy "prophets" or whatever they want to call themselves leading the palestinians to war against us, we could be living in one state with them. there are a few cities and towns where jews live along with muslims, like tel-aviv, yafo, haifa i think and some more i dont remember.

EDITED_BY: Poiboy (1157560418)


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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol, New Zealand

Total posts: 493
Posted:Round and round we go... this has gotten really boring

 Written by:

Considering these stats, why for one second would Palestinians believe that if they stop blowing up cafes they will get their land back? This increase in settlers is a result of government policy. You may disagree but it seems to me that Israel never intended to return the West Bank or Jerusalem.



Seeing as Barak's offer of 97% of the West bank and East Jerusalem as a capital for a Palestinian state 10 years ago has been repeatedly explained to you I can't help but wonder why you keep repeating the same rubbish.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hey poiboy when you say

 Written by:

but no, they choose to elect madmen who say Israel has no right to exist and that they want us wiped out.



Why am I reminded of Ariel Sharon?


Perhaps you ALL should read the facts, and get over this romanticized view, you all have of Israel doin no wrong.
Camp David 2000 Summit





soapbox


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted:It's all well and good to categorise what I'm saying as 'rubbish', but you haven't really responded to my querie. If Israel always has and still does intend to return the occupied territories, why has the population of settlers been increasing the way it has? Why on earth would the Israeli government create problems for itself by first settling people, and then relocating them? A logical explanation would be appreciated.

FireTom, you ask if the number of settlers went up since 2004? Just a few posts back I sent you a link to a story about how Israel is planning to construct 700 new homes in the West Bank, so my *assumption* would be yes, it has. Please read what has been written before posting inane questions.


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_Poiboy_
GOLD Member since Jan 2004

_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel

Total posts: 1113
Posted:yell, about the number of settlers rising, most settlers are religious, religious people are encouraged to have as many kids as possible, and they do. as long as they live there their numbers will keep rising. if you go to religious cities like bnei brak, you'll see families with like 10+ kids and barely enough money to support a family that big. now think if every settler family has 10 kids? that explains it.
EDITED_BY: Poiboy (1157713072)


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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol, New Zealand

Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by:

It's all well and good to categorise what I'm saying as 'rubbish', but you haven't really responded to my querie. If Israel always has and still does intend to return the occupied territories, why has the population of settlers been increasing the way it has? Why on earth would the Israeli government create problems for itself by first settling people, and then relocating them? A logical explanation would be appreciated.



as i said... round and round we go.

 Written by: dream on page 2 of this thread

To homongenize these disparate groups of people so as to posit the conflict as two opposing sides locked in an eternal holy war (or the US/West and Isreal against the East/Oil Producing nations of the Middle East)ignores the multi-polar reality of the situation, and more importantly blinds people from the possiblility of meaningful engagement and suport of the moderates on every side of the conflict who seek a meaningful resolution to end the suffering of people all over the Middle East.




Your references to Israel as some kind of universal entity which subsumes the entirity of the Israeli population continues the homogenization of the entirity of the Israeli population into the spectre of Sharon which you began 18 pages ago.

 Written by: dream on page 2

Painting one (either Isreali or Palestinian/Arab) group of homogenized people as evil and oppressive while the others become poor tortured victims who have done nothing wrong blatantly ignores the history of the region and does nothing to work with the groups on both sides who still seek a fair resolution to the conflict and an end to violence in the region.




There is a mentalist uber-nationalist settler movement in Israel, a moderate peace seeking movement and most things in between. These movements tend not to like each other (surprisingly). Barak, as a labour PM came closer to representing the Peace movement, hence he offered a fairly decent Palestinian State to Arafat at Camp David. Sharon was a right wing nutcase who had traditionally been seen as the champion of the settler movement and proposed to keep virtually all the settlements - including Ariel - the west bank settlement named after 'the vegetable'.

I'm afraid i don't think i can make that any clearer for you. If you still can't find any way of differentiating between different Israelis with different agendas than there's really no point in me continuing.

Stone, could you please explain why you feel that ceeding 94% of the West Bank (and some territory which is currently in Israel proper) all of Gaza, East Jerusalem and custodianship of the Muslim Quarter of the Old City, as explained by the wiki article - was so bad for the Palestinians that Arafat refused it and provided no counter offer? It may not have been a perfect offer, but it was the best they'd had since 1947 (which they also refused and decided to fight a war instead).

Do you really think that the Palestinian people have done better out of the 2nd Infitada than they would have done with their own nation? Bear in mind here that Palestinian GDP is about 20% of what it was before the Infitada broke out?

That really is my last post on this thread...

have fun

hug


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:dream I would suggest Ariel Sharon finished any hope of peace with his walk up Temple Mount.

For a real insight into the negations I would suggest people could watch the Camp David tapes with live footage of the negotiations between Arafat and Barak.

One thing that struck me about the Camp David negations was how good President Clinton was in his role as mediator, and how close he came to causing peace. It was a good deal for all up until that fateful walk.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Yes Fire Tom, thats right, but it justifies nothing.

I suggest you watch the video footage of the Camp David negotiations to get insight into the situation, especially the bit where Ariel Sharon incites a riot on Temple Mount ending any hope of peace. It was a real eye opener for me, and changing my view of the middle-east conflict.

ditto on the "we should try to listen to ourselves a little more careful sometimes... "






smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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_Poiboy_
GOLD Member since Jan 2004

_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel

Total posts: 1113
Posted:yell, you didnt answer my question.
you said "what reason do the palestinians have to believe that they'll get the land back if they stop blowing up cafes?"
well, what reason do they have to believe that theyll get the land back if they keep blowing up cafes?
whenever israel has a plan for giving them land, the terrorist organizations start bombing us even more. the only one that was actually carried out was the gaza strip eviction, which left a lot of those settlers homeless. and after a short while of no bombings, they started bombing us again. before the lebanon war started, ehud olmert had a plan for giving them most settlements- olmerts realignment plan- wikipedia.
he was planning on giving most west bank settlements to the palestinians within 4 years. but the hizbullah decided to kidnap 3 soldiers and kill 8 others, which started the war. now it's either scrapped or postponed.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fire Tom, I dont think anything will change until you all stop blaming each other for your problems. It seems to me you all love this war and all the fighting, because any time peace becomes possible one side or the other does something stupid to derail the peace negotiations, like Ariel Sharon on Temple Mount or captured soldiers.
.
So Fire Tom, to me it looks like bunches of lunatics completely preoccupied with the romantic picture of (Palestinian or Israel) fighting for their freedom. The bottom line is no one will get to heaven until you lot evolve enough to put you differences behind you, and create a better peaceful world for ALL of us to live into. Stop being so bloody selfish.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:FireTom, war brings confusion. Just look at how badly we have all behaved in this thread.

The solution is not about acknowledging who is the most to blame, is it? That only leads to more conflict. No, the solution is about creating a future without war.

What would the world look like if we stopped fighting each other? I think it would look like the Garden of Eden. What do you think Fire Tom?





smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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orenico
PLATINUM Member since Feb 2006

orenico

member
Location: Here and there, Israel

Total posts: 143
Posted:you can all talk as much as you want.

but israel will nuck the world before giving up it's littel crapy medeteranian swamp.

why? cause of the holocost. we are not very sain.

just so you know ubbloco


Love, Love, Love...

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted:This planet will never look like the Garden of Eden as long as unbridled capitalism rules. But that is a different discussion...

smile


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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:Commie. tongue

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_Poiboy_
GOLD Member since Jan 2004

_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel

Total posts: 1113
Posted:in theory communism works, in theory. tongue

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:In theory, abstinence works too

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:...and evolution.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:... and intelligent design.

Practically the only thing that works in the long run is:

Inform yourself, question the sources and verify them.

Then forget all of it and try to listen to your heart...

Maybe this already is a blueprint of the (in)famous "Garden of Eden" - maybe we should try to improve it...

Yellfire, I guess you do not want to answer Poiboys question? Maybe you still (unconditionally) support the "violent struggle of Palestinians for freedom"? shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:FireTom, I like your signature:

"It is easier to lead men to combat, stirring up their passion, than to restrain them and direct them toward the patient labors of peace." Andre Gide (1869-1951)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:... hence I do not believe that men need to be restrained, in order to be directed to the patient labours of peace... This is one thing some women usually are mistaken about wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:So Fire Tom, what do you think it will take in order to direct men towards the patient labours of peace?





peace


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:"When a man's ways please Yhwh, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him." - Proverbs 16:7

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fire Tom, you sound like you are talking about another species, not human beings.

Patriarch917, I like that quote He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him." - Proverbs 16:7

Now, lets apply it to our lives and end war forever.

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:Firetom, is response to point 2, the problem here is that across the middle east there has been a rise in fascist Islam, which is not the Islam that used to rule.

Look at Afghanistan, although there were extremists before the communists took over, once they were defeated, fascist Islam came into play. This is not true of every Middle East country - Northern Lebanon was quite a liberal place (probably not so anymore), but the southern states were a hotbed for fascist extremists.

Old Islam, when all three Abrahamics lived together in peace (although not on equal ground) still held the concept of Ijtihad to be important. This is the reasoned argument within Islam - Christianity and Judaism both use it, thats why there are so many offshoots of both religions. Until this comes back into play, Madressa's across the middle east and even europe (not a clue about US) will still teach 'these are who you hate, don't question it'.

Please don't say 'you don't know whats taught in schools' because I do. I've worked with security groups and (shock horror) I actually have a lot of Muslim friends. One said to me that she'd never met a nice Jew before, another said that if I wasn't Jewish i'd be a great person, still another said she can't blieve I condone the slaughter and blood libel of Palestinian and Christian Children.

Unfortuanately these madressa's do teach hate - and you can see it in mixed area's all over Manchester. Anti-Semetic attacks by Muslims on Jews have increased 200% in the past few weeks - its horrendus.

When there is a suicide bomb in Israel that kills many people, or when the leader of Iran denies the Shoah, or threatens to wipe Israel into the sea, or when an 18 year old Muslim girls tells a group of Israeli students that she supports exploding their friends and family, there isn't any jews who go out with the express intent of vandalising and beating up muslims!

I'm not saying every Muslims in filled with hatred for Jews, of course not, but unless the commnity starts to filter out these people and condemn the attacks, then nothing is going to change. As it is, many leaders condone suicide bombing in the middle east, and refuse to condemn it - in that case, nothing is ever going to change.

It makes me sad frown
Shabbat Shalom everyone


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:CNN.com - Hezbollah leader: Militants 'won't surrender arms' - Sep 22, 2006

*sigh*

Here we go again... frown


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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_Poiboy_
GOLD Member since Jan 2004

_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel

Total posts: 1113
Posted:why didnt we bomb him when he spoke...
god i hope someone kills him.


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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:Happy New Year you two....

*fingers crossed* something happens to him to make him see sense. Or get hit by a bus. I'm good for either.


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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