Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)
Login/Join to ParticipateStargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".
I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.
But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.
For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...
And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...
I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...
It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...
I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?
Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]
sorry guys
[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".
I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.
But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.
For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...
And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...
I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...
It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...
I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?
Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]
sorry guys
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
GOLD Member
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
Posted:
do you not see the bigotry in this statement? or do you actually believe that Jews deserve the anti-semitism directed towards them? or perhaps, as lightning suggested, you're using the terms 'jew' and 'israeli' interchangeably, when they are, in fact, separate?
and actually, Patriarch's answer to your question, is just that. people really do believe those things.
true story:
friend travelling in ohio, stopped in a general store. talked to the shopowner for a while and it came out that he was jewish. the shopowner said, completely serious "really? I thought you guys had horns and a tail"
Written by: Stone
I think you have milked the Auschwitz and Belsen examples for as long as possible. Perhaps, you could ask what it is that the Jews are doing, that causes all this animosity towards them.
do you not see the bigotry in this statement? or do you actually believe that Jews deserve the anti-semitism directed towards them? or perhaps, as lightning suggested, you're using the terms 'jew' and 'israeli' interchangeably, when they are, in fact, separate?
and actually, Patriarch's answer to your question, is just that. people really do believe those things.
true story:
friend travelling in ohio, stopped in a general store. talked to the shopowner for a while and it came out that he was jewish. the shopowner said, completely serious "really? I thought you guys had horns and a tail"
kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Equally, some of those on this thread who see Israel as being innocent victims could be advised to go and live in Palestine or Lebanon for a while.
Suffering oppression there, or having innocent family members killed, could leave you feeling much like Israeli victims of rocket attacks/suicide bombings.
Whilst it is true that there is mindless and unreasoned violence directed towards Israelis, equally it is true that Israelis in the past have perpetuated exactly the same on its enemies.
And, to the extent that that Israeli violence was 'justified self-defence'; much of the violence returned was, in the eyes of the arab perpetrators, equally so.
While the UK was subject to IRA terror attacks, I, like many here, considered that violence to be a very bad thing- that didn't make me deny the indisputable fact that, in the minds of the terrorists, there were historical reasons for their hatred- that the UK governments hands were far from clean and that their historical oppression of the Irish had been a big causal factor in the then current violence.
Just out of interest, for those involved in this thread, which of the following do you believe-
a. the current violence is due to the Arabs
b. the violence is due to Israel
c. both have contributed- both have made mistakes and both have murdered innocents
I'm going for c.
Written by: Gremlin_Lou
Seriously, you people really need to go and live in Israel. If the Welsh constantly ran acorss the border into UK and blew themselves up, i'm pretty sure England would build a fairly big fence after a while!
Equally, some of those on this thread who see Israel as being innocent victims could be advised to go and live in Palestine or Lebanon for a while.
Suffering oppression there, or having innocent family members killed, could leave you feeling much like Israeli victims of rocket attacks/suicide bombings.
Whilst it is true that there is mindless and unreasoned violence directed towards Israelis, equally it is true that Israelis in the past have perpetuated exactly the same on its enemies.
And, to the extent that that Israeli violence was 'justified self-defence'; much of the violence returned was, in the eyes of the arab perpetrators, equally so.
While the UK was subject to IRA terror attacks, I, like many here, considered that violence to be a very bad thing- that didn't make me deny the indisputable fact that, in the minds of the terrorists, there were historical reasons for their hatred- that the UK governments hands were far from clean and that their historical oppression of the Irish had been a big causal factor in the then current violence.
Just out of interest, for those involved in this thread, which of the following do you believe-
a. the current violence is due to the Arabs
b. the violence is due to Israel
c. both have contributed- both have made mistakes and both have murdered innocents
I'm going for c.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
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GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Also, I can see what some of you are trying to do with Stone- I've seen exactly the same thing happen in past HOP threads and the results are never good for anyone- given that nothing we say in this thread will diminsh the tragic violence in the middle east, can't we at least go th lengths to ensure that this thread doesn't degenerate into something that the mods will have to sort out?
Also, I can see what some of you are trying to do with Stone- I've seen exactly the same thing happen in past HOP threads and the results are never good for anyone- given that nothing we say in this thread will diminsh the tragic violence in the middle east, can't we at least go th lengths to ensure that this thread doesn't degenerate into something that the mods will have to sort out?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
Posted:
For the record, I would choose c as well.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself:
I'm quite appalled at stone's comments
Here he not only uses jew and israeli interchangeably, but he perhaps doesn't realise the extent of what he's saying.
Some reasons for stone that the jews being who they are is why everyone hates them:
They 'killed' the Christian savior
Drink the blood of Christian children
During the middle ages, Christians weren't allowed to charge interest on money loans, so Jews ended up being the moneylenders, and were despised for it
The Inquisition was aimed at converting and 'saving' Jews
They spoke a different language and had their own customs, and so were forced to live separately, in ghettos
Think 'Merchant of Venice'
oh, and the other stuff Patriarch had mentioned
For the record, I would choose c as well.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself:
I'm quite appalled at stone's comments
Written by: stone
Now it may seem unfair to ask this question given the Nazi holocaust, but when history keeps repeating itself, there may be another explanation. I know some of the reasons I learn at school. But I'd like to know more - “Who are the Jew being that gets everybody offside with them? And what could they do, or who would they have to be to bring peace back to the world?"
Here he not only uses jew and israeli interchangeably, but he perhaps doesn't realise the extent of what he's saying.
Some reasons for stone that the jews being who they are is why everyone hates them:
They 'killed' the Christian savior
Drink the blood of Christian children
During the middle ages, Christians weren't allowed to charge interest on money loans, so Jews ended up being the moneylenders, and were despised for it
The Inquisition was aimed at converting and 'saving' Jews
They spoke a different language and had their own customs, and so were forced to live separately, in ghettos
Think 'Merchant of Venice'
oh, and the other stuff Patriarch had mentioned
kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I can sympathize with this from the POV of the Palestinians.
NOT the Lebanese, who have their own country and don't get messed with by the Israelis unless they start invading or firing rockets across the border.
The fact that you confuse the two shows that you don't know the difference, and that you know nothing at all about the situation at hand. Have a look at a map. Then come back.
Written by: Stone
Certainly Lightning. I think that if I was faced with a situation where I was treated with intolerance, arrogance, a lack of compassion as well as being considered something less than human; then I could see how the use of rockets could be an option of last resort.
I can sympathize with this from the POV of the Palestinians.
NOT the Lebanese, who have their own country and don't get messed with by the Israelis unless they start invading or firing rockets across the border.
The fact that you confuse the two shows that you don't know the difference, and that you know nothing at all about the situation at hand. Have a look at a map. Then come back.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Stone, you're REALLY on dangerous ground here. Like "report to the mods" ground.
We're exactly the same people who any other ethnic minority are. And we suffer the same crap that any other ethnic minority.
Replace "Jew" with "Gay" or "Black" or whatever else and then see how that question sounds.
Written by: stone
Now it may seem unfair to ask this question given the Nazi holocaust, but when history keeps repeating itself, there may be another explanation. I know some of the reasons I learn at school. But I'd like to know more - “Who are the Jew being that gets everybody offside with them? And what could they do, or who would they have to be to bring peace back to the world?"
Stone, you're REALLY on dangerous ground here. Like "report to the mods" ground.
We're exactly the same people who any other ethnic minority are. And we suffer the same crap that any other ethnic minority.
Replace "Jew" with "Gay" or "Black" or whatever else and then see how that question sounds.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
As for prisoner exchange, according to the BBC news, Israel and Hezbollah are now discussing it. Perhaps you had better take up why it would be unworkable with Olmert, because he would seem to agree with me now.
My other proposal was more or less identical to the current UN plan (+plus some obvious sarcasm), Israeli withdrawal and UN peacekeepers. So far THAT seems to be working.
I find it interesting that my proposals that were shouted down as unworkable are now being implimented. Perhaps I ought to go work for the UN or the Israeli government.
I have every confidence that a peacekeeping force will be able to defuse the situation, however the massive popularity boost that Israel has given Hezbollah will be hard to counter. Perhaps a few massive donations to the rebuilding fund would help reduce the feelings of ill will felt by the recently homeless in Lebanon.
I think all of us would do best to listen to One Wheel Dave on this, since he can always put it better than I can.
Written by: Doc LightningWritten by: jeff(fake)
I would have thought that you would get my philosophy even vaguely right, Doc, rather than forming strawmen. I have never espoused pacifism. My point has always been that the actions by Israel in Lebanon were unneccasery, counter-productive to the security of Israel, and excessively destructive.
Your alternatives were prisoner exchange...and I forget what else. I explained why prisoner exchange wouldn't work. What was the other again? I'm sure I patiently explained why that wouldn't work, either.
So...suppose Hezbollah starts firing rockets again now that there's a cease-fire (which will undoubtedly mean that they can move new personnel and materiel into place). THEN would you be OK with Israel defending itself?
At what point, in your world view, would Israel have the right to shoot back?
As for prisoner exchange, according to the BBC news, Israel and Hezbollah are now discussing it. Perhaps you had better take up why it would be unworkable with Olmert, because he would seem to agree with me now.
My other proposal was more or less identical to the current UN plan (+plus some obvious sarcasm), Israeli withdrawal and UN peacekeepers. So far THAT seems to be working.
I find it interesting that my proposals that were shouted down as unworkable are now being implimented. Perhaps I ought to go work for the UN or the Israeli government.
I have every confidence that a peacekeeping force will be able to defuse the situation, however the massive popularity boost that Israel has given Hezbollah will be hard to counter. Perhaps a few massive donations to the rebuilding fund would help reduce the feelings of ill will felt by the recently homeless in Lebanon.
I think all of us would do best to listen to One Wheel Dave on this, since he can always put it better than I can.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Jeff: would you then please leave it up to OWD? :P
You find me confused, as you implicate that Hizbullah demanded only the lebanese prisoners to be exchanged by Israel. This is a VERY unusual behaviour and I doubt that this information given is correct.
Jeff: would you then please leave it up to OWD? :P
You find me confused, as you implicate that Hizbullah demanded only the lebanese prisoners to be exchanged by Israel. This is a VERY unusual behaviour and I doubt that this information given is correct.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Hey, I'm getting better at being polite. There was a time I wouldn't have responded calmly to accusations that Hezbollah is getting support from people like me, or to stone's comments which I am choosing to view as being badly worded. People get very passionate about stuff like this, and sometimes don't think straight, but I'm trying very hard to be calm and reasonable. I make mistakes, but I try to forgive and understand, despite how it may look sometimes.
This is according to the press conference held by the head of Hezbolla, held on the day of the kidnappings. Israel attacked before any actual demands were made, so certainty is impossible. However, Hasan indicates that other prisoners may come up in the negotiations, but confirms that Lebanese prisoners are the primary consideration. Link-ity-link Whilst it is possible that the release of many more could have become an unconditional demand, I think that's unlikely given the climate at the time (though the charges against some of those incarcerated are dubious, being for the most part Palestinians picked up for looking funny, and conditions bad, including allegation of degredation and torture).
Now it looks like the prisoner exhange is going ahead, after a month of fighting and hundreds killed on both sides with nothing acomplished. Thus is war.
Written by: FireTom
Jeff: would you then please leave it up to OWD? :P
Hey, I'm getting better at being polite. There was a time I wouldn't have responded calmly to accusations that Hezbollah is getting support from people like me, or to stone's comments which I am choosing to view as being badly worded. People get very passionate about stuff like this, and sometimes don't think straight, but I'm trying very hard to be calm and reasonable. I make mistakes, but I try to forgive and understand, despite how it may look sometimes.
Written by: Firetom
You find me confused, as you implicate that Hizbullah demanded only the lebanese prisoners to be exchanged by Israel. This is a VERY unusual behaviour and I doubt that this information given is correct.
This is according to the press conference held by the head of Hezbolla, held on the day of the kidnappings. Israel attacked before any actual demands were made, so certainty is impossible. However, Hasan indicates that other prisoners may come up in the negotiations, but confirms that Lebanese prisoners are the primary consideration. Link-ity-link Whilst it is possible that the release of many more could have become an unconditional demand, I think that's unlikely given the climate at the time (though the charges against some of those incarcerated are dubious, being for the most part Palestinians picked up for looking funny, and conditions bad, including allegation of degredation and torture).
Now it looks like the prisoner exhange is going ahead, after a month of fighting and hundreds killed on both sides with nothing acomplished. Thus is war.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
It IS working. What, exactly, was Israel to do during the two weeks that it took for that to be implemented?
Written by: jeff(fake)
My other proposal was more or less identical to the current UN plan (+plus some obvious sarcasm), Israeli withdrawal and UN peacekeepers. So far THAT seems to be working.
It IS working. What, exactly, was Israel to do during the two weeks that it took for that to be implemented?
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
If they went in there and physically rebuilt it and had contact with the lebanese that might work.
You don't want to give money. The money that went to the victims of the Pakistan quake got diverted to the recent attempt to blow up the planes from England.
Written by: jeff(fake)
I have every confidence that a peacekeeping force will be able to defuse the situation, however the massive popularity boost that Israel has given Hezbollah will be hard to counter. Perhaps a few massive donations to the rebuilding fund would help reduce the feelings of ill will felt by the recently homeless in Lebanon.
If they went in there and physically rebuilt it and had contact with the lebanese that might work.
You don't want to give money. The money that went to the victims of the Pakistan quake got diverted to the recent attempt to blow up the planes from England.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Pretty much any action would have been better than the one they implimented, which resulted in the mass launch of missile on Israeli towns, and the demolition of Lebanese cities.
So what do you do when your soldiers are kidnapped? They could have called on the Lebanese government, called on the UN, or even engage in military action against Hezbollah (in a proportionate and humanitarian manner, targeting only Hezbollah military positions, instead of bombing southern Lebanon flat).
The fact is there were dozens of alternatives to waging war to rescue two soldiers. Since history shows that war never works against terrorists, only UN or Lebanese intervention could ever have any chance of convincing Hezbollah to give up arms.
And no, I never for a second suggested that a government should do as demanded by terrorists, I simply showed that even that represensible option was still better than the one used.
I'm curious where that information comes from. Since the terrorists were planning to use cheap, over-the-counter chemicals, and most of them are British nationals with amble cash of their own, I fail to see how humanitarian aid would have been of any particular use to them. Sounds like Fox news to me.
EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1155734357)
Written by: Doc LightningWritten by: jeff(fake)
My other proposal was more or less identical to the current UN plan (+plus some obvious sarcasm), Israeli withdrawal and UN peacekeepers. So far THAT seems to be working.
It IS working. What, exactly, was Israel to do during the two weeks that it took for that to be implemented?
Pretty much any action would have been better than the one they implimented, which resulted in the mass launch of missile on Israeli towns, and the demolition of Lebanese cities.
So what do you do when your soldiers are kidnapped? They could have called on the Lebanese government, called on the UN, or even engage in military action against Hezbollah (in a proportionate and humanitarian manner, targeting only Hezbollah military positions, instead of bombing southern Lebanon flat).
The fact is there were dozens of alternatives to waging war to rescue two soldiers. Since history shows that war never works against terrorists, only UN or Lebanese intervention could ever have any chance of convincing Hezbollah to give up arms.
And no, I never for a second suggested that a government should do as demanded by terrorists, I simply showed that even that represensible option was still better than the one used.
Written by:
You don't want to give money. The money that went to the victims of the Pakistan quake got diverted to the recent attempt to blow up the planes from England.
I'm curious where that information comes from. Since the terrorists were planning to use cheap, over-the-counter chemicals, and most of them are British nationals with amble cash of their own, I fail to see how humanitarian aid would have been of any particular use to them. Sounds like Fox news to me.
EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1155734357)
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Indeed. And I'm certainly not going to talk anyone out of hating Jews. Or thinking that Native Americans, or German Jews got what was coming to them at least.
*Bows out*
Written by: fireNiceWritten by: Stone
I think you have milked the Auschwitz and Belsen examples for as long as possible. Perhaps, you could ask what it is that the Jews are doing, that causes all this animosity towards them.
do you not see the bigotry in this statement?
Indeed. And I'm certainly not going to talk anyone out of hating Jews. Or thinking that Native Americans, or German Jews got what was coming to them at least.
*Bows out*
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
That's actually a pretty easy question to answer, if you don't let personal bias get in the way. i.e turning it into a PC witch hunt.
A: The Jews simply subscribed to a belief system that was different from the "norm"
Ask yourself, on these forums, would you value the opinion of a Christian conservative as in the same way you'd value the opinion of a Liberal hippy?
That's actually a pretty easy question to answer, if you don't let personal bias get in the way. i.e turning it into a PC witch hunt.
A: The Jews simply subscribed to a belief system that was different from the "norm"
Ask yourself, on these forums, would you value the opinion of a Christian conservative as in the same way you'd value the opinion of a Liberal hippy?
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
IMO: The use of force and violence in religious conflicts should be interpreted as a lack of faith.
IMO: The use of force and violence in religious conflicts should be interpreted as a lack of faith.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
No fireNice, I don’t think the Holocaust gives people immunity, or permission to commit genocide against other races. I think, you miss the point of my questions. I thought people might be mature enough to give a honest answer.
I vote for C Dave, good post and yep I’m outer here.
Just sticking to your guidelines Doc Lightning.
No fireNice, I don’t think the Holocaust gives people immunity, or permission to commit genocide against other races. I think, you miss the point of my questions. I thought people might be mature enough to give a honest answer.
I vote for C Dave, good post and yep I’m outer here.
Just sticking to your guidelines Doc Lightning.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
There ARE NO HEZBOLLAH MILITARY POSITIONS because THEY WERE FIRING OUT OF CIVILIAN POSITIONS.
Have you just been intentionally not reading the news and arguing for the sake of it? I can't BELIEVE anyone could make such a moronic statement.
Written by: jeff(fake)
So what do you do when your soldiers are kidnapped? They could have called on the Lebanese government, called on the UN, or even engage in military action against Hezbollah (in a proportionate and humanitarian manner, targeting only Hezbollah military positions, instead of bombing southern Lebanon flat).
There ARE NO HEZBOLLAH MILITARY POSITIONS because THEY WERE FIRING OUT OF CIVILIAN POSITIONS.
Have you just been intentionally not reading the news and arguing for the sake of it? I can't BELIEVE anyone could make such a moronic statement.
Written by:Written by: ]You don't want to give money. The money that went to the victims of the Pakistan quake got diverted to the recent attempt to blow up the planes from England.[/quote
I'm curious where that information comes from.
The New York Times and the BBC. I'm not going to chase after the articles because you apparently aren't reading the news.-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Please provide a direct quote where anyone here has said, implied, or even remotely inferred that the Holocaust grants Israel the right to do anything other than exist.
Written by: Stone
No fireNice, I don’t think the Holocaust gives people immunity, or permission to commit genocide against other races.
Please provide a direct quote where anyone here has said, implied, or even remotely inferred that the Holocaust grants Israel the right to do anything other than exist.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
From the OED
Genocide: The deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic or national group.
Therefore the holocaust was an act of genocide as the Nazis attempted the deliberate and systematic extermination of Jews, Gypsys, Slavs and other ethnic groups. Equally the massacres in Rwanda were acts of genocide as the Hutu militias attempted to systematically exterminate the Tutsis.
would you like to inform us which ethnic/national group Israel has been systematically exterminating.
Southern Lebanon has not been bombed flat. If you look at photos/video footage from any of the damaged cities there are highly localised areas of extreme devastation surrounded by untouched areas. The town of Bint Jbeil - where some of the fiercest fighting took place, is mising almost half its town centre. It has been flattened. However all of the suburbs are completely untouched.
As such it would seem reasonable to induce that while the IDF flattened areas from which they had been attacked or suspected of being Hizbollah positions they did a fairly good job of leaving the civillian areas. Unfortunately the Hizbollah positions were also civillian areas and so some civillian casualties were an inevitability. The casualty rate - which varies and there are still bodies being found - but which is generally given as about 1000 dead over a month of war is considerably lower than the casualty rate over the same period in the Iraq civil war - which is not being fought by an army with state of the art equiptment. The difference is that while in Iraq the bombs are designed to kill as many people as possible, whereas in Lebanon the IDF were targeting what they thought to be Hizbollah positions. That doesn't mean that I feel that the tactics the IDF employed were the right ones... Aeiral bombardment is never 100% accurate - US made smart weapons only have to be about 70% accurate which leaves 30% to go wrong and hit something unintended making it far from surgical warfare. However to claim that its genocide is plainly ridiculous.
If Israel had wanted to flatten southern Lebanon, killing the best part of a million Lebanese in the process it could have. If they wanted to try and systematically exterminate Arabs from the middle East there would have been nuclear bombs in Beirut, Tehran, Damascus, Baghdad et al and tens of millions of deaths. And the kind of reaction seen from Stone and Jeff would have been entirely justified. However there is NOTHING in Israel's history to suggest it will ever attempt to wipe out Arabs from the middle east. From accepting the 1947 UN partition plan to Camp David the Israelis have sought peaceful relations with their neighbours... While some of their ideas of a fair settlement today seem overly harsh this is because they see themselves as a besieged and suffering people. This can be contrasted with groups such as Hamas, Hizbollah and the current Iranian government who have repeatedly called for the destruction of the state of Israel.
Its hard to negociate peace with someone whose stated position is that genocide/jihad is the only way forwards.
Written by: Stone
I don’t think the Holocaust gives people immunity, or permission to commit genocide against other races.
From the OED
Genocide: The deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic or national group.
Therefore the holocaust was an act of genocide as the Nazis attempted the deliberate and systematic extermination of Jews, Gypsys, Slavs and other ethnic groups. Equally the massacres in Rwanda were acts of genocide as the Hutu militias attempted to systematically exterminate the Tutsis.
would you like to inform us which ethnic/national group Israel has been systematically exterminating.
Written by:
They could have called on the Lebanese government, called on the UN, or even engage in military action against Hezbollah (in a proportionate and humanitarian manner, targeting only Hezbollah military positions, instead of bombing southern Lebanon flat).
Southern Lebanon has not been bombed flat. If you look at photos/video footage from any of the damaged cities there are highly localised areas of extreme devastation surrounded by untouched areas. The town of Bint Jbeil - where some of the fiercest fighting took place, is mising almost half its town centre. It has been flattened. However all of the suburbs are completely untouched.
As such it would seem reasonable to induce that while the IDF flattened areas from which they had been attacked or suspected of being Hizbollah positions they did a fairly good job of leaving the civillian areas. Unfortunately the Hizbollah positions were also civillian areas and so some civillian casualties were an inevitability. The casualty rate - which varies and there are still bodies being found - but which is generally given as about 1000 dead over a month of war is considerably lower than the casualty rate over the same period in the Iraq civil war - which is not being fought by an army with state of the art equiptment. The difference is that while in Iraq the bombs are designed to kill as many people as possible, whereas in Lebanon the IDF were targeting what they thought to be Hizbollah positions. That doesn't mean that I feel that the tactics the IDF employed were the right ones... Aeiral bombardment is never 100% accurate - US made smart weapons only have to be about 70% accurate which leaves 30% to go wrong and hit something unintended making it far from surgical warfare. However to claim that its genocide is plainly ridiculous.
If Israel had wanted to flatten southern Lebanon, killing the best part of a million Lebanese in the process it could have. If they wanted to try and systematically exterminate Arabs from the middle East there would have been nuclear bombs in Beirut, Tehran, Damascus, Baghdad et al and tens of millions of deaths. And the kind of reaction seen from Stone and Jeff would have been entirely justified. However there is NOTHING in Israel's history to suggest it will ever attempt to wipe out Arabs from the middle east. From accepting the 1947 UN partition plan to Camp David the Israelis have sought peaceful relations with their neighbours... While some of their ideas of a fair settlement today seem overly harsh this is because they see themselves as a besieged and suffering people. This can be contrasted with groups such as Hamas, Hizbollah and the current Iranian government who have repeatedly called for the destruction of the state of Israel.
Its hard to negociate peace with someone whose stated position is that genocide/jihad is the only way forwards.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Guys Guys Guys.... I just saw on the news that Jonbenet's killer confessed! And judging by the lack of news coverage I'd assume that this whole Middle East thing blew over.
See! Everything is fine! Well, unless you're Jonbenet.
Now if we could only retry OJ.
( )
Guys Guys Guys.... I just saw on the news that Jonbenet's killer confessed! And judging by the lack of news coverage I'd assume that this whole Middle East thing blew over.
See! Everything is fine! Well, unless you're Jonbenet.
Now if we could only retry OJ.
(
) Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Hezbollah is re-arming. Has anyone thought about maybe addressing this issue?
Or shall we wait until the rockets fly again? Of course, this time the U.N. will be there and perhaps it won't make Israel look so bad.
Hezbollah is re-arming. Has anyone thought about maybe addressing this issue?
Or shall we wait until the rockets fly again? Of course, this time the U.N. will be there and perhaps it won't make Israel look so bad.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
PLATINUM Member
bastard child of satan
1,113 posts
Location: Raanana, Israel
bastard child of satan
1,113 posts
Location: Raanana, Israel
Posted:
the UNIFIL were there last time.
they just stood there for 6 years going "hmm... i wonder what these rocket launchers doing in southern lebanon... should we tell someone?"
they deserved to be bombed.
if the UN force (is there a difference between that and UNIFIL?) will do the same then we're doomed.
and why the hell arent america doing anything but idle threats at Iran about their "peacful" uranium enrichment? they're gonna shoot these nukes at israel or america first, and in that case we cant wait for the rockets to fly.
the UNIFIL were there last time.
they just stood there for 6 years going "hmm... i wonder what these rocket launchers doing in southern lebanon... should we tell someone?"
they deserved to be bombed.
if the UN force (is there a difference between that and UNIFIL?) will do the same then we're doomed.
and why the hell arent america doing anything but idle threats at Iran about their "peacful" uranium enrichment? they're gonna shoot these nukes at israel or america first, and in that case we cant wait for the rockets to fly.
Carpal \'Tunnel
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
Posted:
15.000 isreali troops enter jordan
she's bruised and red raw but reports she's ok
15.000 isreali troops enter jordan
she's bruised and red raw but reports she's ok
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Dude, have you seen pics of the Israeli troops?
Each one's hotter than the last...
Lucky biatch... She wanted it.
(OK!!! OK!!! I'm SORRY!!!! I couldn't resist!!!!
)
Dude, have you seen pics of the Israeli troops?
Each one's hotter than the last...
Lucky biatch... She wanted it.
(OK!!! OK!!! I'm SORRY!!!! I couldn't resist!!!!
) -Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
15 000,,,, ok you guys have given me some mental imagery that's even more disturbing than Brit Joe's post on condoms.
Anyway. I think Poiboy really nailed it. It's not so much what's happening now that as much cause for alarm than what may or may not happen when Iran does get nuclear weapons. A few might just go "astray" and end up in the hands of a group like Hezbolla.
Then what?
Do you figure that the threat of MAD ( mutually assured destruction ) will keep the "combatants" apart? I suspect it worked during the cold war, but then neither side employed suicide bombers, nor hid amongst a civilian population. Who do you figure would launch first? Israel ? to neutralize the threat, or some fundamentalist group in pursuit of their ideology?
I figure we'll be looking at the proverbial immovable object meeting an irresistible force
15 000,,,, ok you guys have given me some mental imagery that's even more disturbing than Brit Joe's post on condoms.
Anyway. I think Poiboy really nailed it. It's not so much what's happening now that as much cause for alarm than what may or may not happen when Iran does get nuclear weapons. A few might just go "astray" and end up in the hands of a group like Hezbolla.
Then what?
Do you figure that the threat of MAD ( mutually assured destruction ) will keep the "combatants" apart? I suspect it worked during the cold war, but then neither side employed suicide bombers, nor hid amongst a civilian population. Who do you figure would launch first? Israel ? to neutralize the threat, or some fundamentalist group in pursuit of their ideology?
I figure we'll be looking at the proverbial immovable object meeting an irresistible force
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
MAD isn't an issue with Israel...
Think how big the US and the old USSR were. Now go look at a map and take a look at how small Israel is. Couple of H-Bombs and there'd be no one left to fight back.
Which is one of the reasons behind Israeli security concerns... As a state it was very nearly wiped off the map by the Syrian tank advance in 73. If the Syrians had competent commanders they would have got to Tel Aviv and there wouldn't be an Israel today.
Israelis are generally fairly well aware of this and when their neighbours are trying to build nuclear weapons and talking about how they want to wipe them off the map you can understand why they're somewhat concerned. Its why they bombed the Osirak nuclear reactor in Iraq in 1981 (an act which was condemned by the UN) and why they'd try and take out an Iranian reactor before it gave Tehran the capability to construct nuclear weapons.
MAD isn't an issue with Israel...
Think how big the US and the old USSR were. Now go look at a map and take a look at how small Israel is. Couple of H-Bombs and there'd be no one left to fight back.
Which is one of the reasons behind Israeli security concerns... As a state it was very nearly wiped off the map by the Syrian tank advance in 73. If the Syrians had competent commanders they would have got to Tel Aviv and there wouldn't be an Israel today.
Israelis are generally fairly well aware of this and when their neighbours are trying to build nuclear weapons and talking about how they want to wipe them off the map you can understand why they're somewhat concerned. Its why they bombed the Osirak nuclear reactor in Iraq in 1981 (an act which was condemned by the UN) and why they'd try and take out an Iranian reactor before it gave Tehran the capability to construct nuclear weapons.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Just found this
Just found this
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
So Israel just broke the cease-fire. Admittedly it was to stop illegal weapons shipments to Hezbollah, but still...
BAD MOVE. I mean, if they were able to produce the weapons they'd captured it would be a major coup, although Hezbollah could go "not us!" but really, they should have just sat still and waited for Hezbollah to attack again.
Now they REALLY look like the bad guy.
So Israel just broke the cease-fire. Admittedly it was to stop illegal weapons shipments to Hezbollah, but still...
BAD MOVE. I mean, if they were able to produce the weapons they'd captured it would be a major coup, although Hezbollah could go "not us!" but really, they should have just sat still and waited for Hezbollah to attack again.
Now they REALLY look like the bad guy.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
organic creation
246 posts
Location: earth, Wales (UK)
organic creation
246 posts
Location: earth, Wales (UK)
Posted:
Written by: RAVI NESSMAN, Associated Press Writer Wed Aug 16
JERUSALEM -
Israel's defense minister appointed a former army chief of staff on Wednesday to investigate the military's handling of the 34-day war in Lebanon as public criticism intensified that the offensive was poorly planned, unsuccessful and not worth its cost in human lives.
The formation of the committee fell well short of meeting demands for an independent, in-depth probe of both the government and the military, and analysts said it marked only the beginning of what promised to be a lengthy string of investigations.
Meanwhile, Israel's current army chief, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, came under deep pressure to resign because of revelations he found time to call his broker and sell off his stocks to avoid wartime losses hours before launching Israel's largest military operation since 1982.
With Israelis banding together during the war, approval ratings soared for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz, men with little military experience who took office just two months before the fighting started. Polls Wednesday showed a collapse in their popularity as Israelis began criticizing the conduct of the war.
Support for Olmert fell from 78 percent during the fighting to 40 percent in a poll of 500 people published by TNS-Teleseker. Peretz's approval rating plunged from 61 percent to 28 percent, according to the poll, which had a margin of error of 4.4 percentage points.
Other reservists sent to Lebanon complained they lacked essential equipment and said the army was disorganized and often gave them conflicting and confusing orders.
Media reports said the war cost the Israeli economy $3 billion in damages and lost revenue, though the government said it was too early to assess the full damage.
A poll Wednesday by the Dahaf Research Institute showed 70 percent of Israelis opposed a cease-fire that did not bring the soldiers back, and 69 percent backed an official inquiry into the war's prosecution. The poll had a margin of error of 4.5 percentage points.
Halutz also faced heat for his wartime decisions. But much of the criticism Wednesday focused on his stock transactions, which were called insensitive and arrogant.
Halutz has acknowledged selling about $28,000 worth of stocks at noon on July 12, three hours after the Hezbollah raid that touched off the war.
Politicians and military commanders called for Halutz' resignation.
"This is something that makes you wonder if there is some very problematic chemistry with this person. How, in the middle of everything, could you suddenly think about your bank account? It doesn't make sense to me," dovish politician Ran Cohen, who is a reserve colonel in the paratroopers, told Israel's Channel 10 TV.
Halutz expressed no regret over the sale, saying he has finances to manage like any other Israeli. "They've turned me into Shylock," he told the Yediot Ahronot daily, referring to Shakespeare's despised Jewish "Merchant of Venice."
Member
9 posts
Location: Upstate, NY
9 posts
Location: Upstate, NY
Posted:
don't ever be sorry..it waist's ttime-o....and btw "the dishes won't do themselves" -anyomonus
Written by: FireTom
sorry guys
don't ever be sorry..it waist's ttime-o....and btw "the dishes won't do themselves" -anyomonus
I TRY TO MAKE MY VOICE HEARD, BUT I KEEP ON ENdING UP, FEELING LIKE A TURD.
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