Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: NYC


Bizarre examples?

There are plenty of examples of terrorists hijacking planes with babies on them. There are plenty of examples of terrorists launching rockets from school yards. There are plenty of examples of terrorists holding babies in one arm and shooting machine guns from the other.




Let's not forget. This summer, there was a plot to blow up transatlantic flights with explosive disgused as baby formula.

And, of course, to complete the disguise, the plan was that terrorists would bring their wives and babies aboard the planes they were going to destroy.

Terrorists have no qualms about killing civilians. In fact, that is the very definition of terrorism. If they attacked military targets then it'd be guerilla warfare.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: simian


 Written by: Doc Lightning

But when the mortars are coming from miles behind enemy lines, you have an issue with getting the IDF troops in there.



That is exactly the attitude toward modern warfare that creates so much more collateral damage.

We can't risk our soldiers in a mission behind enemy lines. Lets use some 'precision' explosives and kill some enemy civilians instead.



It's not a matter of risk. It's a matter of "you can't get there from here."

It's one thing to send soldiers in to do a job and another thing to give them an impossible task.

Israel has sent their special forces (among the best in the world) in to do this sort of thing. Even in these situations, innocent civilians still get caught in the line of fire (a few years ago, there was a very highly publicised case of a child getting shot by an errant Israeli sniper).

It's a war, and if you launch a war out of civilian territory without first evacuating the civilians, civilians are going to kill.

People love to throw up figures like:
"Palestinian civilians killed: 36,000
Israeli civilians killed: 20"

Well, duh. Israel evacuates their civilians. Hamas and Hezbollah don't. In fact, in the recent skirmish with Lebanon there was evidence that Hezbollah was keeping civilians there at gunpoint.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
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Posted:Dave, you raise a good point. In my opinion, Israel should never have been put where it is.

Unfortunately, it's too late. Israel is there. It has a huge GDP per capita (I think in the top 30) and it's been there for 3-4 generations now. So that's not a real solution, although I'd love to see it.

Besides, where would you put them? I can't think of a single place that would welcome the entire population of Israel wandering in and setting up shop.

Hmm... Maybe Iraq? (KIDDING!!!! biggrin )


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning



Dave, you raise a good point. In my opinion, Israel should never have been put where it is.



Unfortunately, it's too late. Israel is there. It has a huge GDP per capita (I think in the top 30) and it's been there for 3-4 generations now. So that's not a real solution, although I'd love to see it.



Besides, where would you put them? I can't think of a single place that would welcome the entire population of Israel wandering in and setting up shop.







Isn't it worth exploring the option though, given the impossibility of the current situation and the lack of hope for the forseeable future.



We both seem to agree that a Middle East location, with the benefit of hindsight, was not a good choice (and I recognise that that's in the past and we can't change the past).



I've argued in this thread that if israel continues with its current defence policies, that peace in the future is unlikely to happen and that peace in the present is definitly not going to happen.



Conversly, even if Israel substantially changes its defence policy, with an eye to minimising civilian casualities- though it will, in the eyes of many, gain moral ground and, arguably, make possible peace in the far future- where the present and immdeiate future are concerned, israel will still not know peace.



I've mentioned the fact that the current situation threatens not just Israel, but the whole world- that the terrorists who so effectively are killing Israeli civilians and carrying hatred for them, are now taking that hatred to the whole world.



How long can nuclear weapons be kept out of the hands of terrorists and the regimes supporting them?



They've already launched an attack on America of military proportions that killed thousands and opened the eyes of extremist Muslims to what is possible.



Maybe the fact that this is now a problem for the whole of the civilised West is what can make a relocation based solution possible.



Much as the way nations are banding together to tackle the worldwide threat of global warming and impending environmental disaster (with certain notable exceptions wink), is it conceivable that they can recognise the threat from the Middle east situation and act to ease it?



So nations worldwide contribute money to enable Israelis to relocate to one, or several areas of the West where they are welcome.



Areas of America, canada, Mexico, australia could be options.



Whereever it is, they are guaranteed, as far as anything in this world can be, that they will be welcomed.



As the successful state Israel is, I see no reason why they should not be welcome and be an asset to any of the above lands.



The motivation for Israelis are the same as for the rest of us- world peace, increasing the potential for negotiation/diplomacy between the West and those Muslim states that are open to reason.



But the real motivation, is that of getting their families and children out of the current hell-hole.



==========



It would be a huge enterprise, almost inconceivably so.



But, IMO, far less than the alternative of not doing so and dealing with the consequences of not doing so.



And, I'm under no illusions that many of the current extremist states/groups calling for the destruction of Israel, would actually completely cease their terror operations- they wouldn't.



But, handled properly and with diplomacy, i believe that those muslims currently in the grey area (such as those who hate because of the genuine family losses they have suffered, yet who are not so far gone that they're not open to reason) could finally make their decision about distancing themselves further form extremism.



But, above and beyond all that, in my eyes, the real winners would be Israeli's- those yet to be born, who, instead of being doomed to be part of the current never-ending-cycle of revenge, hatred and killing, could live their lives in relative peace.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I'll play the part of the American and ingorantly propose the "domino theory" defense.

If terrorists blow stuff up and Israel "retreats" to New Jersey, isn't that incentive to keep blowing stuff up to gain other territories?

I know that Israel is not the only sticking point. I don't actually believe that if Israel packed up and left the region would be any better off (I think the Israelis might but not the region.) But on this note I will admit my ignorance and move on.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
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Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning

Israel has sent their special forces (among the best in the world) in to do this sort of thing. Even in these situations, innocent civilians still get caught in the line of fire (a few years ago, there was a very highly publicised case of a child getting shot by an errant Israeli sniper).





Indeed, in any kind of urban offensive civilian casualties are going to be a possibility. But some methods are more indiscriminate than others.



If their special forces are among the best in the world, they shouldn't find it impossible to get behind enemy lines. There would be numerous methods of insertion.



I note that Israel launched a 'deep raid' into Gaza on Tuesday. Ground troops backed up by tanks. There was one civilian casualty, a 70 year old woman, currently no information on how it was caused.

Link to Reuters



Hardly good news, but could have been worse...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


 Written by: NYC


So as long as terrorists have innocent kids duct taped to them they should have free reign?

And if the terrorists are using kids to protect them while they kill larger numbers of children then what? Let them kill the kids because we don't want to hurt the kids?



I think I've explained my views on this as well as i can in my previous posts.

It's easy to construct bizarre examples about terrorists duct taping Palestinian babies and a bomb to themselves, then running into a group of Israeli babies which is one baby bigger than the number of babies duct taped to the terrorist etc.

Anyone seriously interested in my views on this issue, or seriosly interested in debating them with me, can examine my previous posts where I've stated them in some detail, tried to anticipate reaslistic critisisms and then addressed them.




excuse me, you think that the situations mentioned are bizarre...they aren't, these sort of things are happening, perhaps not people duct taping their kids to them but mothers holding babies and then pulling out a rifle

people have fired from schools with kids inside

but those are bizarre situations that would never happen


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
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Posted: Written by: NYC



I'll play the part of the American and ingorantly propose the "domino theory" defense.

If terrorists blow stuff up and Israel "retreats" to New Jersey, isn't that incentive to keep blowing stuff up to gain other territories?





Bringing in the phrase 'retreat' rather than 're-locate' seems to me to be unnecessarily negative.

And false- Israel is clearly well capable of sticking it out indefinitly- it won't achieve peace, but certainly it can hold it's current location as long as it wants.

What israel has acheived is miraculous, since the original Jews located to such an unlikely area of the world, they have defended themselves against all odds, taking on multiple nations in conventional warfare and triumphing against them.

the racist stereotype of the 'cowering Jew' is no longer a viable image- they have fought for their position more successfully than most Western nations could.

I'm not going to waste time arguing that 'retreat' can't be applied; but I will say that 're-location' is at least as factually correct, certainly a lot more respectful of what the Israelis have achieved and, finally, a lot more helpful in encouraging this idea to be seen as viable and good.

 Written by: NYC



I'll play the part of the American and ingorantly propose the "domino theory" defense.

If terrorists blow stuff up and Israel "retreats" to New Jersey, isn't that incentive to keep blowing stuff up to gain other territories?





Concerning American 'Domino theories'- the American military withdrew (or, to use your terms 'retreated') from Vietnam.

The Vietnamese did not follow them and America currently is not suffering from Vietamese terrorists/freedom fighters.

A very different scenario from israel I admit, but if generalisations like 'domino theory' are being roped in, then the above does show that they don't necessarily hold.

Where Vietnam is relevant, however, is as an example of a situation where the position, in terms of civilian losses on both sides, eventually becomes untenable, and withdrawal is clearly not just the best, but the only option.

Certainly, if Israel (and the civilised world in general) have the foresight to initiate that re-location at this stage, then, in the eyes of many, they will be highly respected for not letting it degenerate to the level that other nations (e.g. America) have traditionally done.

 Written by: NYC


I know that Israel is not the only sticking point. I don't actually believe that if Israel packed up and left the region would be any better off (I think the Israelis might but not the region.) But on this note I will admit my ignorance and move on.




You're right, i would fully expect that the irrational muslim extremist factions would start on each other and squabble over land, politics and religion.

But, as you say, israel would certainly be better off.

Additionally, I feel that the current unification amongst diverse extremist muslim factions would quickly dissolve with the removal of what they see as an enemy they all hate.

Attacks on the west would probably become much lower also, as they are no longer supporting the maintanance of a state the muslim extremists oppose.

Just as I don't believe Israel is the only one to blame in the original conflict and, just as I've stated that, even if Israel alters its policies on enemy civilian deaths, that peace will stil, not come; I also am very aware that 'withdrawal/re-location; will not lead to a immediate peace for the region.

I just believe it will, on balance, be better, for everyone, in the long-term.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:After the various reports of it on the thread, I've been looking for various reports of Palestinian use of human shields, and can't find much in the way of reports of gunmen with babies gaffa taped to them, mortars being fired from locations surrounded by innocents, or the use of coercion rather than free choice of the shield.



In most recent reports the use seems purely defensive, preventing air strikes on residential houses that the Israeli's believe hold weapons or are used for planning attacks. In the case of Beit Hanoun the shield seems to have been to buy time to allow the escape of militants, rather than protecting them while they attack, which has often been the inference in this discussion.



Any links to such reports would be appreciated.



I did come across these reports of the use of coerced palestinian human shields by the IDF.

HumanRightsWatch.org report from May 2002 stating The IDF decision to prohibit the use of Palestinian civilians as "human shields"

BBC report from 25 July 2006 detailing continued use of Palestinian human shields by the IDF

which may help explain the origin of the tactic.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


excuse me, you think that the situations mentioned are bizarre...they aren't, these sort of things are happening

but those are bizarre situations that would never happen



This is interesting because I've searched quite a bit but haven't managed to find any articles on Palestinian militants using civilians as human shields, just reports on Israeli soldiers using Palestinians as human shields.

You have to keep in mind that Gaza is tiny and has a population density of 3750 people / square km, so militants are *always* going to be close to civilians no matter what. Doc earlier commented on how great Israelis are because they evacuate their civilians wheres Hamas don't. I would really like to know where Palestinian civilians should be evacuated to. Into Israel perhaps?


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:please note i did not say which side

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
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Posted: Written by: faithinfire

mothers holding babies and then pulling out a rifle



 Written by: faithinfire

please note i did not say which side



confused

Can you give any sources for reports of mothers holding babies and then pulling out a rifle on either side?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:my NGO professor who is over there doing some international mediation, well trying, but i know that isn't good enough for you

she was aiming for them

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1164215411)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Don't mind Simian, he just likes being difficult.

Ask him to prove that he exists before you respond to any other questions. wink

 Written by: Yell fire!


This is interesting because I've searched quite a bit but haven't managed to find any articles on Palestinian militants using civilians as human shields, just reports on Israeli soldiers using Palestinians as human shields.



I used a website called google to find this source.

I don't even think the Palistinians would disagree with the fact that they are using human shields considering they are publicly asking for volunteers.

Even the BBC had some pretty good coverage of that.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:i know
i figure an NGO is a good source though cause he is trying to make stuff better

perhaps i should put him under a box and say i made him inexistent
ref: heidinger and his cat (we know he likes sources)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
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Posted:Yes. That's Beit Hanoun, that i was talking about in my post.



Fancy answering any of my points? i can provide evidence for my existence if it'd help.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
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Posted:and me and my wanting evidence eh?

you'd almost think i used it to form my opinions or something...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:it's just that you're crabby
this is a friendly discussion you know


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: NYC


I used a website called google to find this source.




Slight difference between people voluntarily acting as shields to protect others and being held hostage at gunpoint and forced to act as shields.


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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by: OWD

Additionally, I feel that the current unification amongst diverse extremist muslim factions would quickly dissolve with the removal of what they see as an enemy they all hate.



Would this be the extremist unification we're currently witnessing in Iraq where over a hundred people are dying every day in sectarian violence??? (last month's offical figure - just released - is that 3,700 people died in October, beating this July's previous record of 3,500 sectarian deaths)

Or maybe this 'unity' of Muslim extremists was a reference to the sectarian violence between Hamas and Fatah militas in Gaza and the West bank???

Or perhaps the sectarian murder of Lebanese industry minister Pierre Gemayel this week prompted your comment???

That there are widespread sectarian conflicts going on throughout the middle east appears to me to present a picture of a far from unified group of people.

frown

*Remembers running away from this thread a while back and why it was a good idea*

*pokes a cantankerous Monkey on the way out*

hug


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
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Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


 Written by: Doc Lightning


Dave, you raise a good point. In my opinion, Israel should never have been put where it is.

Unfortunately, it's too late. Israel is there. It has a huge GDP per capita (I think in the top 30) and it's been there for 3-4 generations now. So that's not a real solution, although I'd love to see it.

Besides, where would you put them? I can't think of a single place that would welcome the entire population of Israel wandering in and setting up shop.




Isn't it worth exploring the option though, given the impossibility of the current situation and the lack of hope for the forseeable future.

We both seem to agree that a Middle East location, with the benefit of hindsight, was not a good choice (and I recognise that that's in the past and we can't change the past).

I've argued in this thread that if israel continues with its current defence policies, that peace in the future is unlikely to happen and that peace in the present is definitly not going to happen.



I would argue differently. Israel got in a little skirmish with Egypt a few decades back. Took the whole Sainai peninsula. Egypt then turned around, made a treaty with Israel, agreed to be friends...and got their territory back.

There is hope. But you're forgetting something very important, Dave.

Hamas and Hezbollah are fundamentalist organizations. Fundamentalism is one of the ultimate evils of humanity. I don't care whether it's Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Hindu (and yes, Hindu fundamentalists exist). Fundamentalism is up there with Nazism. You cannot reason with them and NOTHING will make them happy, even if you picked up Israel and set it down on the Moon. Because then the Lebanese fundamentalists and the Palestinian fundamentalists will meet in the middle and start killing each-other. Same thing we see in Iraq.

So moving Israel will accomplish two things, neither of them good (in addition to uprooting an entire nation):
1) It will cause war between the Palestinians and the Lebanese.
2) It will demonstrate that terrorism and fundamentalism get results.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
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Posted: Written by: Yell fire!



 Written by: NYC



I used a website called google to find this source.







Slight difference between people voluntarily acting as shields to protect others and being held hostage at gunpoint and forced to act as shields.





Indeed. If they're volunteering then they're active participants and valid targets.



Heh... I thought I was kidding too about the duct tape.



If this is true it's practically duct tape.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
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Posted: Written by: NYC

Indeed. If they're volunteering then they're active participants and valid targets.


As i said previously, i find this view morally bankrupt.
It's also contrary to the terms of the Geneva Convention.

i don't think i need to point out how inconclusive that video is. Anyone convinced that it displays what it purports to display has pretty clearly made their mind up before watching it.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Yell fire!
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Location: London
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Posted: Written by: NYC


Indeed. If they're volunteering then they're active participants and valid targets.




Really? Then I guess by your logic any Israeli voluntarily living on occupied territory is also a valid target. For many people that includes all of Israel.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Posted:I don't understand how people can be so against a country defending itself against terrorism. Just let them shoot? Don't shoot back because you might hurt someone?

Gee, maybe Israel SHOULD do that. I'd love to see your response to that.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Yell fire!
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Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
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Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


I don't understand how people can be so against a country defending itself against terrorism.



I guess you don't understand because for some reason you cannot differentiate between terrorists attacking innocent people minding their own business in their own country, and an oppressed and brutalised population attacking an occupying population that is directly responsible for that oppression and brutalisation.

Big difference.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Posted: Written by: Yell fire!


 Written by: Doc Lightning


I don't understand how people can be so against a country defending itself against terrorism.



I guess you don't understand because for some reason you cannot differentiate between terrorists attacking innocent people minding their own business in their own country, and an oppressed and brutalised population attacking an occupying population that is directly responsible for that oppression and brutalisation.




Really? And Britain didn't send troops into Iraq and Afghanistan to fight along U.S. troops? I would argue that the actions of the U.S. and Britain even prior to 9/11 towards the Mid-East were every bit as bad as Israel's...just we have some geographical separation.

Seems to me England deserved the Tube by your reasoning.

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with standing up and railing against Israeli treatment of Palestinians. I think it's barbaric and needs to be stopped. But I draw the line at violence.

And frankly, I'm disgusted at your implication that Palestinian violence towards Israelis is somehow justified by their being downtrodden. There were other ways to come to peace and independence. The *ONLY* valid justification for violence, in my opinion, is defense.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
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Posted: Written by: NYC


If this is true it's practically duct tape.



that looks like a video of someone with a gun picking up a kid from the middle of the road (in the open) and moving him to where a group of people stand.

and i don't see the idf at all?

i see both the idf and palestinian kids in this video though smile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
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Posted:I thought that they were defending themselves?

Isnt that what you do when someone invades?


Love is the law.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
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Posted: Written by: ado-p


I thought that they were defending themselves?

Isnt that what you do when someone invades?



how does withdrawal from gaza represent an invasion - surely thats the the opposite of invasion...?

and how do you define the firing of rockets into civilian territory as 'defence'?


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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