• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 1...910111213...20
FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete Topic

Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted: Written by:



Good point there Stone..What does God really think about this?



As an atheist I've always suspected that God uses war to mediate disputes and this action we're discussing here might just be part of God's plan. If so, then who are we to intervene?



A U.N. peacekeeping force might piss him off even more





I thought atheists (when its not just people trying to avoid sounding uncool) didnt beleive in any god exsisting, you talk as if you think he does, rather christian like actually (just for example)


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

Delete

fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York

Total posts: 3354
Posted:there's a difference between agnostic and atheist:

one believes there is no god, the other believes that there is *something* but unknowable.

or so I've been told

more on point, there's a wonderful website called Seconddraft.org
this alteration of journalism isn't new, watch the Pallywood movie


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

Delete

Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I'll accept the concept of God as a symbol and accept the slight chance that He really does exist, after all can millions of believers all be wrong? Also, I'll accept the existance of God for discussion purposes.



Since this conflict is all based on belief systems, one might think that the diety that's being believed in might have a little influence on the minds of those perpetuating this military action.



To my mind, a loving and caring God would intervene, maybe by giving us the technology to erect Sagetree's force field, or ensuring that Hizbullas and Israel's ordinance fails to fire. He's done neither, so what other conclusions can I draw than this conflict is a manifistation of God's will.



Do I support using an organization like the U.N. to impose my belief system on the combatants? No.



Brit Joe. I'm too old to give a rip about sounding cool ubblol

EDITED_BY: stout (1155136734)


Delete

Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)



Content removed for review.







See, by that statement, I believe you're showing yourself to be an irrational, rascist f***Wit. I revert to my orginal statement of 'When was the last time you visited these places????"



I'm sorry, but unless you've lived in the middle-east or grown up with the conflict affecting your friends and family then you have no right to make any judgements on Israel.



What you have to bear in mind Jeff, is that these people hae grown up with constant suicide bombings, HezBollah wants he complete destruction of Israel and isn't going to stop. They won't stop the bombings until Israel no longer exists, especially as they have the backing of Iran.



Anyway, even if there is an International Peacekeeping Force, um, Hezbollah will attack it. Like they did last time!

EDITED_BY: Dom (1155160779)


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

Delete

Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted: Written by: stout

He really does exist, after all can millions of believers all be wrong?



I can't think of anything to say...thats an amazing statment!

Actually, I might try living my life based on anything that over 2 million people thinks. Only for a month or something, but it would be fun to try wink


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:What is hezbollah? A milita of the Islamic revolutionary guard. What is it they want? The Islamisation of the Middle East and the destruction of Israel.

Funded by Islamic theocracies such as Iran, who have openly declared their ambitions for Israel. A government who is currently supplying arms to Shi'ite terrorists in Iraq who seek to gain control of Iraq, the purposes of which are Iraqs islamification.

Their tactics involve kidnap and murder and suicide bombs.

Hezbollah is using the state of Lebanon to antagonise Israel. The only people who could curtail this are the Lebonese or the UN. The UN has not been any use and in many cases assisted Hezbollah or turned a blind eye to its activities.


The Lebonese government has done similar. With Hezbollah now having a grip on the Lebonese government and showing no signs of letting go the only option for Israel is to route out Hezbollah before they have an Islamic fascist state on its doorstep which will wage open war on Israel on behalf of Iran and its other islamic sponsors.

The eventual aim is to crush Israel and murder the jews. The second coming of the Nazis. I have encountered many who believe that Hezbollah are resistance fighters who oppose Israels aggression and the legitimate army of Lebanon.

The tendency of these people is to assume Hezbollah possess the same moral standards that you and I have. Acts of terror are merely explained away with excuses such as Israeli expansionism, Western cultural dominance/imperialism or even because they are victims of war seeking revenge for injustice.

There seems to be a Chamberlainian, apologies for the clumsy word, denial about Hezbollah. The belief that they will settle for anything other than the creation of an Islamist empire. I'm quite sure in the short term they would accept a settlement while they re-arm and regroup but the long term strategy remains the same.

It seems that only Israel comprehends the gravity of such an empire. The rest of the West is caught in the net of moral confusion and denial complemented by the curse of moral relativism and political correctness.

The west refuses to teach their children that these people are meant to be judged against our own standards of equality and fairness. But non-judgementalism rules and tolerance is engrained to the point of acceptance of the most hideous deeds.

The net result being a whole society blissfully ignorant of the very grave threat it faces and while it sleeps it allows the serpent of Islamofascism to coil round the throat of its own democracies.

The only way to survive is to fight but while we continue to apologies to Muslims for exercising our rights as free citizens and continue to ascribe values to our enemy they are not capable of holding we are destined to extinction.

The people not under the spell of ignorance have realized this but our media and our leaders who feed their feeble arguments have not. One wonders what it will take for them to wake up. The sooner the better.


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

Delete

Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London

Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: Gremlin_Lou



What is hezbollah? A milita of the Islamic revolutionary guard. What is it they want? The Islamisation of the Middle East and the destruction of Israel.



The people not under the spell of ignorance have realized this but our media and our leaders who feed their feeble arguments have not. One wonders what it will take for them to wake up. The sooner the better.





Sigh! We just keep going around in circles don't we? Your opinions don't change the fact that Hezbollah only exists because Israel occupied Lebanon, and Hamas only exists because Israel has been oppressing the Palestinians for decades. You call them Nazis, but many, many people call Israelis Nazis. Corner anyone, and chances are that they will fight back, I don't understand why you are complaining.



Even Al Qaeda, a truly international terrorist organisation, has never stated that it wants to convert the entire world to Islam. It has merely stated that it wants the west, mainly the US and Israel (if you can call Israel the west) to stop oppressing muslims and leave muslim lands. Is that too much to ask? In fact Al Qaeda even offered Europe a truce around two years back.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3627775.stm
br>




Why don't you understand that imperialism can only lead to the present situation and nothing else? You cannot expect to dominate the world, install puppet dictatorships, invade countries that pose no threat to you, take their natural resources, kill their people, and expect them to sit back and embrace 'western values'. I am truly ashamed of western values if this is what they are.

EDITED_BY: Yell fire! (1155200653)


Delete

Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Sorry but this is a tad off topic but...



 Written by:

[stout]



To my mind, a loving and caring God would intervene, maybe by giving us the technology to erect Sagetree's force field, or ensuring that Hizbullas and Israel's ordinance fails to fire. He's done neither, so what other conclusions can I draw than this conflict is a manifistation of God's will.





Mark 10.13-16



'People brought seven small children to Jesus. They wanted him to put his hands on them. When the disciples saw it, they tried to stop the people. But Jesus called them to them and said, `Let the children come to me. Do not try to stop them. The kingdom of God belongs to people like them. I tell you the truth. If anyone does not believe in the kingdom of God like a child, he will never go in.'



You have to have faith.


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

Delete

fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York

Total posts: 3354
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!



Sigh! We just keep going around in circles don't we? Your opinions don't change the fact that Hezbollah only exists because Israel occupied Lebanon, and Hamas only exists because Israel has been oppressing the Palestinians for decades.



Yellfire, you seem to be implying that that the Israelis are responsible for the suffering of the Palestinians.

Because of work, I had to look on wiki, but you'll find the Israeli founding, particularly interesting:

 Written by: wiki


Large numbers of the Arab population fled the newly-created Jewish State during the Palestinian exodus, which is referred to by many Palestinian groups and individuals as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة), meaning "disaster" or "cataclysm". Many historians suggest that the Palestinians fled due to orders from Arab generals. Many Palestinians left under the belief that the Arab armies would prevail and they would return.[8] Moreover, Israel offered in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel the full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions, but many refused.



while we all know that you can't trust the internet, and must be wary of wiki, it was the quickest way to convey my point.


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

Delete

Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Moderator Note

Guys, I know full well from personal experience that these topics can get really heated and tempers flare whilst typing. But I'd like to ask you to keep the insults and vitriol down.

Not only will this make the board nicer but you'll be able to have a more balanced and constructive discussion whilst you're at it. Insulting those other people support or being condescending to their opinions immediately reduces all your arguments to playground insults.

And remember you're not going to change anyone's opinions here so try to remember this is board is for exploring other people's thoughts more than it is about ranting.

Thanks.


Delete

Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:Let's brighten up the discussion by saying positive things about being Jewish, then. Anyone besides me notice that we could prevent 6 million AIDS cases in Sub-saharan Africa merely by convince them to become Jewish?

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article1217831.ece
br>
Actually, this article deals only with a small part of being Jewish. Were they to observe all of Torah, AIDS would disapear in a single generation.

Of course, if we all observed Torah AIDS would never have been a human disease in the first place.


Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!



Sigh! We just keep going around in circles don't we? Your opinions don't change the fact that Hezbollah only exists because Israel occupied Lebanon, and Hamas only exists because Israel has been oppressing the Palestinians for decades. You call them Nazis, but many, many people call Israelis Nazis. Corner anyone, and chances are that they will fight back, I don't understand why you are complaining.



Israel did not occupy Lebanon at the tiime this war started. Israel occupied Lebanon in the first place because Lebanon attacked Israel.

As for Palestine, I agree that Israel's treatment of them has been midieval. Israel has made a big move in giving them their own country, a move that should have been made long ago.

And then went right ahead and fcensoreded it up by electing Hamas.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:I can understand why the Palestinians voted Hamas in - they do provide schools and hospitals for the Palestinian people. Well, schools that teach hate and hospitals that will only treat Muslims at any rate.



Some facts about Hamas:



1) It is listed as a terrorist organization by Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, the European Union, Israel, and the United States, and is banned in Jordan.



2) Since Hamas took control, the Palestinian territories have experienced a period of sharp internal conflicts, known as Fauda, in which many Palestinians were killed in internecine fighting.



3) The name has bad connotations to Jews and Israelis, because in Hebrew Hamas sounds exactly like the old word ???, meaning "violence, injustice, harsh wrong" (Oxford University Press Hebrew-English dictionary). This word is quite common in the Hebrew Bible, such as in Genesis 6:11, "...the earth was filled with violence" ("????? ???? ???").



4) Hamas regards the territory of the present-day State of Israel as well as the Gaza Strip and the West Bank as an inalienable Islamic waqf or religious bequest, which can never be surrendered to non-Muslims. It asserts that struggle (jihad) to regain control of the land from Israel is the religious duty of every Muslim (fard `ain). This position is more radical than that now held by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), which in 1988 recognized Israel's sovereignty. Hamas does not recognize Israel as a sovereign state and refers to it as the "Zionist entity", a common hostile term in Arab political rhetoric, and calls for an end to the state of Israel in its charter.



5)During the election campaign, Hamas did not mention its call for the destruction of Israel in its electoral manifesto.[16] However several Hamas candidates insist that the charter is still in force and often called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" in campaign speeches. On January 25th, 2006, after winning the Palestinian elections, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar gave an interview to Al-Manar TV denouncing foreign demands that Hamas recognize Israel's right to exist.



6) Hamas's charter calls for the eventual destruction of the state of Israel and the creation of an Islamic Republic in its place.[19] Hamas sees this view as an Islamic religious duty and prophesy which comes directly from Hadith, however the group has not set a specific date for such destruction of Israel, Hamas founder, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, has mentioned the year 2027 as the possible date for destruction of Israel



Guys, these are not nice people. They teach their children to hate Israeli's, which in itself should be a war-crime. Ive met real members of Hamas, not the idiot moonbats you get at demostrations waving Jordanian and Syrian flags, but the real scary assholes who want all jews eliminated.



These people do not want peace. Peace involves real governments, democracies, infrastructure, schools, hospitals and trade. Palestine has refused a state several times over, it prefers victimhood to statehood, and until children can be taught not to hate each other from birth, peace will never prevail.



Hamas Charter:



Preface: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (A quote by Imam Hassan al Banna)



Article 6: "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned..."



Article 11: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."



Article 13: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."



Article 28: "The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion ... It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions ..."



Article 31: "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other."



Article 32: "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."[24]



Elders of Zion? 'Nuff said.

EDITED_BY: Gremlin_Lou (1155205635)


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

Delete

Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917


Let's brighten up the discussion by saying positive things about being Jewish, then.



Woody Allen biggrin lol *fan fair*


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

Delete

Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:The point is, a lot of the Arab world DOES hate Jews. Its a well known fact.

Anyway, good things about being Jewish?

8 days of Hannukah and presents.
Cheesecake
Bagels
David Schwimmer
Purim Fancy Dress
Cute little 4 year olds with Peyes
Smoked Salmon
Being part of the Zionist Conspiracy
More Bagels
Exclamations of 'You're Jewish, i've never met a Jew before'. Even at Poi Meets.


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

Delete

dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by: Gremlin Lou

I'm sorry, but unless you've lived in the middle-east or grown up with the conflict affecting your friends and family then you have no right to make any judgements on Israel.




Is the argument of the tyrant. Its one Israelis commonly bring out to excuse the inexcusable. And one that militias worldwide use to excuse barbaric acts.

I did not live through/in Auchwitz or Belsen but I condemn the Nazis

I did not live through/in Stalin's Gulags but I condemn Stalin

I did not live through/in the massacres of Tutsis in Rwanda but I condem the Interhamwe militia

I did not drop bombs on Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Dresden, but I condemn the American and British political and military decisions to extinguish those civiliian lives

Get the point?

Oh and by the way i have Israeli family. I have cousins who've died in the 2nd infitada. So even by your tyrannical logic I may speak (thank you so much for the priviledge) .

And in no way are the collective punishments of the Palestinian people which breach the Geneva convention justified.

You're right to say that the political philosophy of Hamas is far from nice (and neither were the corrupt Fatah leaders before them)... However Likud's (or Kadima) has been little better.

As you seem so bent of defending every Israeli action/philosophy could you briefly state your opinion of Bneitanu Yisrael policies? or the fact that withdrawing 8,000 settlers from Gaza threatened to plunge Israel into civil war (I was there making documntary films about that so I know how angry a lot of Israelis were) - bearing in mind this is about 3% of the number of settlers currently in the West bank?

As for Likud offering the whole of the West Bank as a Palestinian State... Listen to some of Olmert's speeches. It is not something he or Sharon have ever said. Remember that Barak's offer at Camp David which came without the Knesset's approval spelled the end of his political career as Sharon was able to portray him as selling out his own people. A few weeks later and some carefully prepared provocation from Ariel and the second Infitada was launched.

Since then Labour have only ever been a minority coalition partner in government. If the Palestinians voting in Hamas is a declaration that they are not interested in peace then surely a Likud government says a similar thing from the other side?

So now Israel has a (Kadima) government commited to enforcing a cantonised Palestinian State which is almost universally considered to be economically unviable. Way to go

frown

The problems surrounding Israel are not all one way. Homogenising the Palestinians into the ghost of Sheik Yassin (they hate Israel and want to wipe it off the map) and the Israeli's into the ghost of Sharon (militant right wing US client-state who hate arabs)just perpetuates armed conflict.

There are lots of people on both sides who aren't that unreasonable and want peace. Unfortunately every dead body means their voices become further drowned out by the mortars.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Delete

Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London

Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: Gremlin_Lou


The point is, a lot of the Arab world DOES hate Jews. Its a well known fact.




Is it also not a well known fact that a lot of the Jewish world DOES hate Arabs?

I don't think the Arab world hates Jews, they hate Zionists. I don't think the Arabs would hate groups such as the Neturei Karta. Check out their website, it's quite fascinating:

http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm


Delete

Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:You know what really sucks?

I was really enjoying this argument/discussion, and now i'm going to have to disappear into hospital for a bit.

Dont have time for a proper rebuttal but in short, I never said I support every Israeli policy - look at my previous posts where i've specifically pointed out I don't support everything they do, because they have stupid leaders too and stupid policies can happen.

If Arabs hated Zionists, they wuld yell 'we hate zionists', but at every demonstration i've been too its been (usually in arabic) 'massacre the jews', 'i hate all jews', 'bring back the nazi's' 'we'll finish the job' and 'not toworry, you'll all be gone in 100 years'

Carry on without me guys! Hopefully i'll see you all in a few days *fingers crossed*


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

Delete

jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Gremlin_Lou


 Written by: jeff(fake)


Content removed for review.




See, by that statement, I believe you're showing yourself to be an irrational, rascist f***Wit.



Whilst my comments may have been strongly worded (mass murder is one of the few things which get my goat), I stand by them. I fail to see how my comments were rascist, as they were directed at the Isaeli government, and not the people, which is a distinction which many people forget. I wish for a peaceful and prosperous future for the people of Israel, but renew my remarks that the actions of their leaders are working to unmake any possibility of such a future.

The consequences of this conflict will stretch far into the future. Do you serious believe that young men living in Muslim countries will just take this in their stide? Now we will have a renewed generation of hatred against Isael, creating thousands more terrorists. Constant military action is not viable in the long term. To survive they will need to make friends with people who now wish them dead. I'm not saying it will be easy, nor that it won't be painful, but it is the only way for a lasting peace.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


Whilst my comments may have been strongly worded (mass murder is one of the few things which get my goat), I stand by them.



You are one of those who failed to offer Israel an alternative course of action.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning



 Written by: jeff(fake)



Whilst my comments may have been strongly worded (mass murder is one of the few things which get my goat), I stand by them.





You are one of those who failed to offer Israel an alternative course of action.





Yes I did.



For one they could have simply engaged in prisoner exchange as Hezbolla proposed rather than killing all those people and provoking the rocket attacks. But that would have been a loss of face, which is obviously much worse than killing people.



I'm sorry, I just don't see the logic.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


[ould have simply engaged in prisoner exchange as Hezbolla proposed rather than killing all those people and provoking the rocket attacks. But that would have been a loss of face, which is obviously much worse than killing people.

I'm sorry, I just don't see the logic.



Go back for a second. A failure to exchange prisoners (known terrorists who had masterminded killinigs) was provocation? And so it's Israel's fault?

Wow, I'm glad you weren't my first grade teacher. If Jonny had come and punched me in the nose out of nowhere you might have argued that it was my fault for beating him in a game of tetherball.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: Stone


I think Doc Lightning alluded to an "important" question a few pages back.

I'll paraphrase it, and ask "Why do the Jews keep getting caught in holocausts?"

Now it may seem unfair to ask this question given the Nazi holocaust, but when history keeps repeating itself, there may be another explanation. I know some of the reasons I learn at school. But I'd like to know more - Who are the Jew being that gets everybody offside with them? And what could they do, or who would they have to be to bring peace back to the world?"

And don't go saying it's not our fault, and blaming others. Because clearly it is Israels fault. Saying things like it was our bombs that killed civilians, we fired them, but its not our fault because Hezbollah made us kill civilians, is childish.

Yeah! And what do people think God thinks of this killing ?

Time for another flood springs to mind.

smile



The last few posts brought this post back to my memory. Here, Stone asks us why the Jews keep getting caught in holocausts, and suggest that there must be something faulty within the Jew that makes others (he mentions the Nazis specifically) want to kill them.

This reminded me of an old thread where the British were surveyed on the question of whether women should bear some responsibility for getting raped. Many were surprised at the numbers of British who were willing to say that women could sometimes be blamed.

The standard reasoning has generally been that the Nazis killed Jews because the Nazis were evil, and that rapists rape women because the rapists are evil.

This has gone out of vogue, to some extent. Now, there seems to be a great deal of mental energy spent on trying to understand the attackers, and show that the true fault lies with the victim.

OWD seems to have suggested that the Jewish response to those who are trying to drive them out of Israel through violent means should be to give in and leave. Jeff(fake) seems to suggest that, in response to Hezbollah and Hamas kidnapping soldiers, Israel should have released members of Hezbollah and Hamas that they had previously captured.

Occasionally, I hear conservative right-wing American talking heads complain about how some want to follow a philosophy of appeasement. They say that people exist who will excuse cowardice by calling it diplomacy and justify collaborations with murders by calling it negotiations.
My visions of what constitutes a solution to the mid-east problem is not for Israel to unconditionally surrender to those who wish to destroy her. Organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah have proven beyond a doubt that they cannot be negotiated with, and are unwilling to live peacefully with others. Giving them prisoners would encourage them to try more raids to capture prisoners. Giving them land when they kill civilians will only encourage them to continue with their tactics.

No reasonable person would be fooled into thinking that releasing prisoners would cause Hezbollah and Hamas to renounce their goal of destroying Israel, nor the tactics that they have chosen. If we removed every Jew from the area and turned over the entire country of Israel to them, this would merely exchange one problem for another. Their ultimate goal is not to build a little house in Israel and live out their days in peaceful coexistence with the rest of the world.

We know their goals. Their short term goal is to convince the rest of the world to pressure Israel into a unilateral ceasefire. According to the news today, they seem to have accomplished this. This will give them a chance to reorganize, re-arm, and recruit in preparation for the next cycle of violence.

Their next goal is to kill all of the Jews in Israel. Israel is considered to be occupied Muslim territory. By their presence, the Jews are at war with Allah. Anyone who has read the Koran knows what must be done to those who make war against Allah. The details are not pleasant.

What if we saved Jewish lives by removing them from Israel? After Israel becomes a Muslim state, the next stage would begin. Specifically, the Muslim Empire must stretch from Spain to Indonesia.

If we tell them that we are willing to remove the Jews in order to accommodate them, they will no doubt think that we are willing to move the Spaniards out as well. Perhaps they will have to do a few suicide bombings and fire a bunch of rockets at civilians for a while. Perhaps they will have to do some more fauxtography.

Supposing that we give them Spain, and the religion of peace to spread its love and prosperity throughout all territories that are part of the traditional Muslim empire. Perhaps they will have to commit a little genocide here and there, like in Africa, but the Koran allows for this when necessary.

Of course, even then the problem will not be solved. By this point, they will no doubt have a great deal of control over oil. But they will also no doubt have nuclear weapons. Iraq tried to get them, and the Israelis took out the reactors. Assuming that we dont do the same with Iran, they will probably have nuclear weapons in a very short period of time. This will give them a lot of leverage when they ask for Israel, or Spain. Iran has been constantly announcing its plans, and has notified us that we cannot continue to ignore them if we want to have peace in the middle east. Iran has supported and armed Hezbollah with rockets, and no doubt they will find an organization like Hezbollah quite willing to use nukes if necessary. Giving them to Hezbollah is preferable, since we apparently balk at invading countries to reach organizations such as Hezbollah. Lebanon can continue to protest its innocence, along with its inability to oust Hezbollah from its midst.

Anyone who has read the Koran, or statements by Islamic leaders, knows that the ultimate goal is bringing Islam to the world. Muslim law must be universal, and those who oppose it have certain things done to them (which I shall not describe here).

I do not think that this problem can be solved by the solutions offered. The amount of appeasement that would have to be offered is quite extensive. I personally am not willing to convert to Islam under any circumstances. Thus, to achieve peace (or, rather, Islam) you must kill me first.

If you want a true alternative, I will give it to you. Rather than removing the target (non-Muslims), we should remove those that are doing the targeting. Organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah must be disarmed and dismantled. The leaders of nations (like Iran) who support these organizations must be removed from power.

Earlier in this thread, someone compared Israel to a cancer or a virus that should be removed (incidentally, Iran once said the same thing). This is a misdiagnosis. Israel is a healthy part of our world that is responding to a virus. When a disease attacks your body, your immune system responds. Sometimes this response creates symptoms that are quite annoying, such as mucous. If we try to eliminate the symptoms, however, we are merely hurting ourselves. When we suppress our own immune system, we allow the disease to continue, and the end result is more pain and suffering.

Israel attacked Lebanon in an attempt to get rid of Hezbollah. I disagree with some of the tactics, but their goal was correct. Hezbollah should cease to exist, and someone needs to get rid of it.

I heard today that Israel may be initiating a unilateral ceasefire. Hezbollah will probably consider this a victory, as they have not been required to dissolve or even to cease attacking. Im sure some will celebrate that Israel is backing down, just some will celebrate when a runny nose goes away without regard to whether the disease remains.

Of course, we are told every time there is an attack that not all Muslims are terrorists. I agree. I had my car fixed yesterday by some nice young Muslim fellows, and I have several Muslim friends at University. They have not blown me up. Hopefully, they dont think I should be killed. In other words, I hope that they are very liberal Muslims.

Hopefully, eradicating the type of Islam that demands the type of values claimed by Hamas can be done peacefully, through proselytizing. There is good evidence that a form of Islam can exist that will allow its follower to co-exist with the rest of us. It is being done in Israel, as we speak. We do not often here of the many Arab Muslims who remain in peaceful and friendly relationships with their Jewish cousins, but they exist.

I would like to find a label for the disease that can be expressed in non-religious terms. Although it seems that Terrorists disproportionately claim to be Muslims, we must remember that there are plenty of crazy people with other worldviews. Communist North Korea is attempting to become a problem, and they do not find their motivation in the Koran. Thus, I will join with others who seek to eliminate Terrorism without caring about the underlying motivation.

I dont care much for the way we use the word terrorist. Every country has used terrorist tactics (we usually call them psychological warfare. Creating terror is a longstanding tool of war. It happens to be the tactic chosen by certain people, but I am sure that Hezbollah would mount a more conventional effort to conquer Israel if it had the resources. The fact that they use terrorist tactics is incidental. It is a description of what they do, but not what they are.

Terrorist lets us paint with a broad brush, grouping Asian Communists with Islamic Imperialists. It is a blunt tool, but I suppose I should stick with it. Very well.

In a nutshell then: destroy the terrorists, not the terrified. Admittedly, it is much more costly. It is usually easier to find and punish the victim rather than the criminal, but this is not just. To try to stop crime by removing victims is silly. Docs proposition that the criminals be incarcerated behind a wall springs from the proper motivation, but is not a long term solution. Our long term solution must be to change the hearts of these people, or to remove them.


Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917


OWD seems to have suggested that the Jewish response to those who are trying to drive them out of Israel through violent means should be to give in and leave.



No- check the posts I made, which propose re-location to regions where peace is possible as a solution where everyone (especially the Jews) benefits- not 'giving in'.

Seeing solutions in terms purely of 'giving in', 'winning' or 'losing' is a good way of ensuring that this conflict never ends.

As a resident of sheffield I have the right to walk wherever I want- there's some places where, at some times, I choose not to: I have the right to go to those places but choose not to because of the risk of violence.

By not going to those places I'm not 'giving in' in to muggers, neither am I 'losing'- simply being realistic, sensible and having enough respect for myself that I don't put myself in harms way unnecessarily.

If I was a Jew in the near war-zone that Israel is, I would welcome an opportunity to re-locate myself and my family to a new Israel located in a sensible region of the world.

If other Jews wished to remain for either fundamentalist religious reasons, or because they don't want the arab terrorists to 'win'; then so be it- but, as I made my way to my new (peaceful) homeland, if i was to attach the term 'loser' to anyone, I would be more inclined to apply it to them, than to myself.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning



 Written by: jeff(fake)



[ould have simply engaged in prisoner exchange as Hezbolla proposed rather than killing all those people and provoking the rocket attacks. But that would have been a loss of face, which is obviously much worse than killing people.



I'm sorry, I just don't see the logic.





Go back for a second. A failure to exchange prisoners (known terrorists who had masterminded killinigs) was provocation? And so it's Israel's fault?



Wow, I'm glad you weren't my first grade teacher. If Jonny had come and punched me in the nose out of nowhere you might have argued that it was my fault for beating him in a game of tetherball.



That's an incredibly niave view, Doc. Roughly a thousand people have died and you compare it school yard justice? I think you have fallen into the trap of the False Dichotemy, that the only options are the current one, and letting the terrorists win. There are better ways. You asked me for one alternative, and I gave you two. They may not be the best alternatives, but they were a damn sight better than the mess we are in now. Ask yourself this: If Lebanon were somehow able to defend themselves, say by shooting down Israeli planes before they dropped their bombs on Lebanese towns, would you endorse their right to do so as an act of defence? What about if they were able to take preventative action against Isreal and destroy it's military capabilities, along with a fair amount of Collateral damage? I don't think that would be right, but if your reasoning is applied fairly, that would be the logical conclusion.



There were dozens of alternatives, and I've given but two. The situation we have now is worse for Lebanon, worse for Israel, it is a complete lose-lose situation and I think that Israel is now looking for a way to pull out without losing face now.



Also, am I to believe that you think these action were proportional, humanitarian, and in good faith, or do you think (as surely you must as an intelligent man, with apologies if you have mentioned it earlier) that they were at least disporporionate and callous?


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


[Ask yourself this: If Lebanon were somehow able to defend themselves, say by shooting down Israeli planes before they dropped their bombs on Lebanese towns, would you endorse their right to do so as an act of defence?




No. If the Lebanese were capable of defending themselves against Israel, then it would be proof positive that they were capable of stopping Hezbollah's attacks on Israel. Thus, the Lebanese would be shown to, at a minumum, be standing by and allowing Hezbollah to continue their attacks when they had the capability of stopping them, which would mean that they are co-instigators. They would have no right to defend themselves, but should instead surrender, disarm, and repent.

Of course, the rest of the world should already have acted to dissolve Hezbollah rather than leaving this job to the Israelis. We could have prevented this crisis, but didn't.

Let's not continue this cycle of violence and appeasement. Let's take the actions needed to destroy Hamas and Hezbollah, and let the Israelis and the innocent Lebanese live in peace.


Delete

jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I think the example of Northern Ireland shows that that kind of approach simply doesn't work.



How many of the currently innocent Lebanese whose homes have been bombed flat by Israeli bombs will now be preparing to join Hezbollah? Terrorist aren't a finite army that can be crushed militarily, they are a mind set that is created.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/article.php3?id_article=1002
br>
Just a link for those interested in the process of peace negotiation,and some of the historical context. Was listenning to a negotiator , Dennis Ross, and doing some reading on this. Intersting form an inside perspective and he deals with the practical difficulties, what worked, what failed, how to get up dust off revise and try again...


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: Doc Lightning


That's an incredibly niave view, Doc. Roughly a thousand people have died and you compare it school yard justice? I think you have fallen into the trap of the False Dichotemy, that the only options are the current one, and letting the terrorists win. There are better ways. You asked me for one alternative, and I gave you two. They may not be the best alternatives, but they were a damn sight better than the mess we are in now.



I think I was able to demonstrate why they wouldn't. Actually, I only recall you mentioning prisoner exchange, which basically sends a message that Israel is willing to negotiate with terrorists. Not a good policy. "If you bomb us we'll give you your prisoners back." Nope...I don't think that's a very good alternative. Especially because Hezbollah would just bomb anyway once they got their prisoners back.
[qoote]
Ask yourself this: If Lebanon were somehow able to defend themselves, say by shooting down Israeli planes before they dropped their bombs on Lebanese towns, would you endorse their right to do so as an act of defence? What about if they were able to take preventative action against Isreal and destroy it's military capabilities, along with a fair amount of Collateral damage? I don't think that would be right, but if your reasoning is applied fairly, that would be the logical conclusion.



Depends. If Lebanon were to take action against Israel that would then indicate that Lebanon was harboring and sheltering the terrorists. And in that case, Israel would be well within its rights to storm the entire country and take it.

On the other hand, if Lebanon were to attack its own terrorists and the attacks on Israel were to stop and then Israel continued to attack, then that would be inappropriate on the part of Israel and the world would be well within its rights to storm Israel and take it.

 Written by:


Also, am I to believe that you think these action were proportional, humanitarian, and in good faith, or do you think (as surely you must as an intelligent man, with apologies if you have mentioned it earlier) that they were at least disporporionate and callous?



Again, the bombs started raining down on Israel without provocation. Hezbollah gathered civilians together and used them as a shield. They learned that that trick isn't going to work.

Unfortunately, thanks to people like you, they also learned that it gathers public opinion in their favor.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Patriarch917, when you say thinks like that If you want a true alternative, I will give it to you. Rather than removing the target (non-Muslims), we should remove those that are doing the targeting. Organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah must be disarmed and dismantled. The leaders of nations (like Iran) who support these organizations must be removed from power.



You miss an important point,. Terrorists are a response to Israel, and Israels behaviour to its neighbours. You have to remove Israel to remove the terrorists. YOU are not accepting any responsibility in the cause of this war. All you are saying is Poor Me, its all their fault, when in reality Israel is the cause of the conflict. Perhaps when you are big enough to acknowledge that, then peace will become possible.







frown







If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

Page: 1...910111213...20