Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:I've not been following this thread, but I thought this might be of interest



http://glass-garden.livejournal.com/6560.html
br>


And this



http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=74287

EDITED_BY: Sym (1154003870)


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:ubbcrying

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:ubbcrying



certainly not siutable to get more syphathy or compassion for the Israeli operation...



Many many mistakes and certainly two wrongs don't make a right... also four, five and six don't make it any better.



Still I find it pretty hard that people count the death-clock. x No of Lebanese killed vs. x No of Israeli. In this you neglect the structure of Guerilla activities and that Guerilla are in a much "better" position. You think the Hizbullah would cease to fire RPG's, if there were Palestinians sitting on Israeli tanks?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: sagetree


the only solution i can suggest would be in agreement with onewheeldave and move Israel. However i don't think the people of Israel would accept this offer, unfortunatley.




Not feasable. Believe me, I'd be all for it myself.



Not feasable?

There's a lot of 'not feasables' here though-

it's not feasable for Israel to stop terrorist attacks- turning the other cheek won't work, neigther will bombing civilians

it's not feasable for Israel to attack the terrorists without, as a direct result, ensuring a constant future supply of more terrorists who are more extreme and committed to vengance and the destruction of Israel

It's not feasable to envisage any possible resolution to this war while Israel is situated where it is

Given that the alternative of not moving Israel is equally unfeasable, does it not make sense to move it?

Also, Lightning, when you say-

 Written by: Doc Lightning



Not feasable. Believe me, I'd be all for it myself.





I think you'd more effectively get your point of view across in this debate if you also gave some indication of why you think it's not feasable.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:Doc, going back a wee bit to my comment on al Queda in the US,and why you found my comment invalid....I do agree it was a stretch to make a point, but not invalid as a way to demonstrate said point.

Yes, they - the terrorists and their financiers- were not elected representation of the US government, obviously. But various leaders involved have been shown to have had for many years a very close personal political and financial relationship to those in major positions of the US government. They received "tacit" US support,as have many terrorist leaders and organizations over the years-- they even were on the receiving end of various weaponry deals etc etc.

I know that is a hugely controversial suggestion, and dont want to sidetrack this whole discussion, just clarify why I saw a relationship there.

The point remains, a government may be partially aware of terrorist plans, and not be able or willing to do anything about it. This does not necessarily make them responsible for the terrorists actions when and if they do happen. This does not make them terrorists themselves. Lots of things are agreed on, subtley supported or/or ignored behind the various government doors throughout the world,under the tables etc. As civilians we can not know what all of those are, and so when you claimed to not only know them in this conflict, but to use that justify this attack on innocent citizens, I wanted to point out the flaw in that rationale.


Mike, I do hope you realize that being against the violent actions taken by Isreal does not mean I am, or anyone else is, " for" actions taken by the Hezbolla, or any other enemies of Isreal? I think that paradigm of "if you are not with us your against us "- divisiveness -is actually in itself a huge impediment to understanding and peace. You can be critical of a choice made, while understanding its origins,and even supporting some or all of its stated intended aims. I don't agree with terrorism either, and have not been ignoring or approving of the heinous actions of the Hezbolla.

NYC, very interesting point. But I dont think the analogy holds all that well when you extend it in dimension from a building to a whole nation. Interesting all the same.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


I think you'd more effectively get your point of view across in this debate if you also gave some indication of why you think it's not feasable.



It's not feasable because Israel won't do it. Israelis view that land as the Promised Land (Ha'Ysrael) and won't take anywhere else other than the land of Israel.

So the only FEASABLE option in the REAL WORLD is a wall. And a clear warning that anyone approaching within a given distance of said wall WILL be fired upon. And that will probably stop the killing, or at least minimize it.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: andrealee


The point remains, a government may be partially aware of terrorist plans, and not be able or willing to do anything about it. This does not necessarily make them responsible for the terrorists actions when and if they do happen.




Ok. Let me go back. You keep missing the key point that topples your argument: HEZBOLLAH HOLDS 11% OF THE SEATS IN THE LEBANESE PARLIAMENT AND THEIR COALITION HOLDS ABOUT 30% OF SEATS IN THE LEBANESE PARLIAMENT. They have HUGE influence over the actions of the Hezbollah military wing, which is well known to exist.

These facts are not in dispute or question. They are easily verifiable. It's not as if the Lebanese are trying to stop Hezbollah in the least. And if --given this fact-- you can stand there and say with a straight face that it's even remotely possible that Lebanese government funds can possibly have gone into these attacks then I have some lovely property in the Everglades to sell you.

 Written by:


Mike, I do hope you realize that being against the violent actions taken by Isreal does not mean I am, or anyone else is, " for" actions taken by the Hezbolla, or any other enemies of Isreal? I think that paradigm of "if you are not with us your against us "- divisiveness -is actually in itself a huge impediment to understanding and peace. You can be critical of a choice made, while understanding its origins,and even supporting some or all of its stated intended aims. I don't agree with terrorism either, and have not been ignoring or approving of the heinous actions of the Hezbolla.

NYC, very interesting point. But I dont think the analogy holds all that well when you extend it in dimension from a building to a whole nation.



So let me get back here to the issue at hand. The issue isn't whether war or killing is good. It's bad. Duh.

The issue is in the REAL-WORLD SITUATION that actually exists and considering all the actual variables, you have yet to offer a viable alternative other than to say that Israel should stop killing civilians. And simply stopping the offensive and allowing rockets to continue to sail over the border is not a viable option.

You keep ignoring the real world and talk about how things should be if we could all just join hands and sing "Kum-bay-a". But that's not how it really is.

As for NYC's argument, he's actually spot-on. Sometimes you DO have to kill civilians to save civilians. They SHOULD HAVE shot down those planes on 9/11 rather than letting them ram three buildings. The passengers on the plane that crashed into the ground even made that choice for themselves.

Israel is not destroying an entire country. They are trying to be as surgical as possible in an environment where you can't even be sure where the terrorist is. Frankly, given what they're working with, I'd say that the Lebanese civilian death toll is relievingly low. Not GOOD, but low. I figured it would be in the thousands by now.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: sagetree


"Were we right to bomb Japan and kill innocents?"

nope




And your alternative to bombing Japan and Germany in WWII was...

what?

Because now we're in the same situation. Self-defense.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Before I start I just have to say Get off it Lightning, because my intention this morning is to apologise if I have offended anyone in this thread. Im just amazed how I got caught up in this war. I live in Australia, and its like a cloud of hate has consumed the world. Everyone is grumpy, and the world is crap at the moment. Its time we ALL started to work together to create a world without violence and terror. One way to achieve this is to declare jihad over, and to work towards peace for all humankind.







smile soapbox grouphug peace


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well Al-Qaeda just said that it would jump in on the side of Hezbollah and that the world is its battlefield.

This is going to get VERY ugly.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Time to stop then, and clear all the hate from the world. Believe.



smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Reminds me of a T-shirt I once saw.

"The world is torn with war: visualize world peace. The world is rife with hunger: visualize a nice sandwich."

Your post, and your belief accomplish exactly...nothing.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: onewheeldave


I think you'd more effectively get your point of view across in this debate if you also gave some indication of why you think it's not feasable.



It's not feasable because Israel won't do it. Israelis view that land as the Promised Land (Ha'Ysrael) and won't take anywhere else other than the land of Israel.

So the only FEASABLE option in the REAL WORLD is a wall. And a clear warning that anyone approaching within a given distance of said wall WILL be fired upon. And that will probably stop the killing, or at least minimize it.



Concerning the wall- you say it will stop the killing and presumably that is its point.

However, as I think at least one other person on this thread has pointed out- given, as you yourself know to be the case, that the terrorists do not care about civilians dying, that the terrorists are not interested in peace, and that as far as the terrorists are concerned, the more violent Israel becomes, the better: given all that, surely the very first thing the terrorists will do once the wall is built, is fire missiles over it, bringing down armageddon on the country they fire it from.

ie building the wall will create more killing.

Yes/no? If no, please explain where the above reasoning is wrong.

As for the idea of moving Israel being unfeasable because Israel won't do it: - the terrorists won't accept Israels presence- ever, under any circumstances- that also has an element of unfeasabilty about it.

If Israel is really such a harsh place to live, where death/maiming is an ever present threat for the occupants- surely at least a portion of them would happily move somewhere safe?

For those who remain and turn down the fair and sincere offer for a better home, international pressure can be applied.

Given that you consider civilian losses incurred in the pursuit of peace to be acceptable, that international pressure could include declaring war on those Israelis who stubbornly remain, on the grounds that they are blocking the only feasable way to stop the killing).

At least, if I've understood your posts thus far- you consider the deaths of innocent muslim civilians in the pursuit of a defence of Israel, to be acceptable (given the proviso that they are resident in a country whose government you consider to not be doing enough to stop terrorist activites in that country).

So surely, the deaths of remaining Israelis actively blocking a realistic endevour to bring lasting peace, would similarly be justified?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: NYC


 Written by: onewheeldave



I ask again, if the terrorists were hiding, not in Lebanon, but in US/UK cities, would you all feel that Israel was justified in bombing London/New York.

Would you all feel as complacent and accepting, if it was your mother/father/sister/brother who had ben killed in a Israeli bombing attack.

If terrorists using Muslim civilians as shields justifies Israeli killings, then why wouldn't them operating in UK/US citizens justify similar attacks?



I think you're comparing apples and oranges. We can try and make it apples and apples and I'll give you my own personal response. Please accept this as a BAD analogy and try and focus on my point rather than my details.

If:
1) I was in my building in New York City
2) Terrorists had taken over the building and were shooting rockets into Montreal, Canada.
3) The US government was unable to stop the threat due to lack of power
4) The terrorists had secured the building making a rescue too dangerous.

I say to the Canadian millitary: Blow up my building.

My life is not more important that the Canadians that are being killed.

And full blame for my death should go towards the terrorists, not the Canadian government or the pilot that pulled the trigger.

****

If a US plane was hijacked with me and my family on it and it was being flown into into the Empire State Building I would WANT my government to shoot me down and 'kill innocent civilians' (me!) to save the lives of others.

***

I know the situation in Israel is VERY different and MUCH more complex.

My fundemental opinion on the scruples question is:

If a terrorist organization puts a security force in a position to either kill me (innocent civilian) to save other civilians, I would expect them to do it and full blame would go to THOSE WHO INITIATED THE SITUATION, not those who pulled the trigger.

Now I will end by repeating three more times:

I know the situation in Israel is VERY different and MUCH more complex.

I know the situation in Israel is VERY different and MUCH more complex.

I know the situation in Israel is VERY different and MUCH more complex.

*runs away*



NYC, I appreciate what you're trying to show with your analogy, but I've got to say that the situation in Israel is actually very different and much more complex.

biggrin biggrin biggrin


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


However, as I think at least one other person on this thread has pointed out- given, as you yourself know to be the case, that the terrorists do not care about civilians dying, that the terrorists are not interested in peace, and that as far as the terrorists are concerned, the more violent Israel becomes, the better: given all that, surely the very first thing the terrorists will do once the wall is built, is fire missiles over it, bringing down armageddon on the country they fire it from.

ie building the wall will create more killing.

Yes/no? If no, please explain where the above reasoning is wrong.




Well I suppose it depends on how you do the wall. You don't put civilians near either side of it. Wide buffer zone. And then anyone who approaches it closely enough to fire a missile over it gets mowed down. And you can argue that there were warnings all over the place and that it's a safe assumption that anyone approaching the wall us up to no good.

So yeah, people would get killed, but it would definately enrich terrorists in that population.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:From BBC:



 Written by:

Cpt Doron Spielman told BBC News the battle was being fought at close range and accused Hezbollah of using the civilian population as human shields.



"Hezbollah blockaded the city before the battle began, and we now know at gunpoint forced the Lebanese residents to stay inside the city," Cpt Spielman said.



"We are engaged in a very close combat urban battle - but there are Lebanese civilians trapped inside the city which makes our progress very difficult. We are trying of course to take care of the terrorists while preserving civilian life."





Now, it's an Israeli accusation, but I daresay it's a fair sight more credible than the "chemical weapons" accusation...



...which, I might add, has not appeared on any reputable news source to date.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:uhm. Doc. you do realize you are on a poi forum? I mean, yeah, we are interested in the subject, learning and debating and expressing opinoins, but can we really be expected by you to solve the middle east crisis? it is you who needs to get real . We are exchanging thoughts and ideas here, expressing emotions, brainstorming solutions with the capacities we have. You on the other hand, keep taking things into hostile territory, and trying to support your arguement that Isreal is okay to take such aggressive action by the fact that we , the people of HOP, have not presented you with a better option?

Uhm? There a better people for the job out there, working on it. Thats what they do, work on it. Historians, politicians, diplomats, NGO's, humanitarian organizations- there are lots of better informed and involved perspectves . They use diplomacy, negotiation, strategic financing, cultural programs, threats... many many ways of addressing these issues that are too complex for us to get into, because we are not experts on the Isreali conflict. Some have worked, some have not, some are still in process, some long term, some short term... but there are people , with well educated informed opinions and expereince int he regoin- more than you or I have- that do not beleive Isreals actions are the only best option, and also many that do not support the building of a wall.

Now, ask the same questions from some of those experts, and you might hear more range of possible approaches- though I have to point out I have brought up a few you have not even acknowledged, which is pretty limiting for a discussion forum.

At any rate, I just wanted to point out that the air of triumph, or is it frustration? coming through your posts when you reitterate that we have not solved the problem yet, and therefore you must be right, is a bit unreasonable in and of itself. You have not presented any new perspective in a while, or seemed to show any interest in any one elses, and frankly, that makes this conversation a little boring. I can learn more from the paper.

Oh, and since when is 11% a ruling majority that represents the will of the people? ( dont bother answering that, just pointing it out again) I have never said that hezbolla was not a part of Lebanon, just stated that they are not representative of the entire country of Lebanon. They are not the government, they are not the nation, they are not the people. Just one part of them. Isreal and the International community could have pressured or influenced Lebanon to remove them from the government in a different fashoin. Really, they could have. it might be interesting to find out why they did not. Who has gained by this destruction and the restructuring of power in the middle east?

I feel truly sorry for the people of Lebanon, who have been manipulated by one group of people after another for many years now. I hope, in time, they can claim their own rights, and not be subject to the will of hezbolla, Isreal, the USA, Syria, Iran...

No time to continue this, and lessing interest.
peace, out.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I think that Doc is making a really sound point actually.

If there is no better solution than "what's currently being done" then "what's currently being done" is the best solution, no? Even if "what's currently being done" is really really really bad.

I don't know why Mike seems to be getting persecuted for bringing up logical, if unpleasant, points.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:Yikes! I dont agree that whats currently being done is necessarily actually the best thing! particularly when really really bad! it seems an absurd concept to me the way you express it. Not at all logical. And I just pointed out, that other people *are * thinking of, and attempting to do, better things, and busily trying to do them, while being impeded by bombing...

And who is persecuting Mike? That is certainly not my intention.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:Maybe that idea is more important , and should not be dismissed so quickly.--

Why would one think that disagreeing with someone would amount to persecution? Can I not simply disagree with Mike, have both of us and many others, make our points, share our perspectives, even if ultimately all we can do is agree to disagree?

Where does persecution come in?

Maybe this concept is very very relevant to the current conflict in the middle east.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:lol. Believe what u like Lightning. I like the idea of a T-shirt that helps people visualize world peace. Things like that work!

I think people are stuck in this viscous cycle of war because they enjoy it; they enjoy wallowing in hatred, and moaning about how unfair life is. If they were to take a good hard look at themselves, they would probably find they fear their lives would loose meaning without conflict, in a peaceful world.

Peace could be achieved rapidly if people were committed to peace and not war. A gesture of commitment by Israel would be a good start. Something like offering the Muslims complete sovereignty over Temple Mount would end jihad. Sure, Israel would have to give up something, but what price do you put on world peace? The ball is in your court. The choice between Peace and War is yours. What are you going to do?




grouphug


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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GitasGuy
GitasGuy

Pooh-Bah
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 6th Jun 2006
Total posts: 2303
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: Birgit


right... that's just ridiculous. 1 rocket and Israel invades the country? Like, even if the majority of Lebanese or Syrians or Palestinians (if that counts as a country in that respect) decides to leave Israel alone, and 1 militant fires off a rocket, Israel's given the right to take the whole country? Sorry, that's just a REALLY bad idea. But it'd probably get the support from the USA wink

Well done for hitting that UN/Unifil post and killing 4 people who I suppose hid Hezboolah terrorists, too, by the way! frown



Again, if you don't want to get hit, don't hit.


Doc if your neighbour was a wanted criminal and just by chance the police raided your house and you were killed. Do you see that to be acceptable.
These poor (one without money) people cant choose what terrorist cell moves in next door to them (so to speak) yet they become the victims.
They have hit nobody but now they are being hit!!!!


:admires giant wooden aeroplane: Its about time trees were good for something, instead of just standing their like jerks!!! ubblol ubbtickled

Homer rocks!!!! ubblol ubbrollsmile

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Stone


A gesture of commitment by Israel would be a good start. Something like offering the Muslims complete sovereignty over Temple Mount would end jihad. Sure, Israel would have to give up something, but what price do you put on world peace? The ball is in your court. The choice between Peace and War is yours. What are you going to do?



They did this with Gaza. They gave it back. Moved all Israeli settlements out. And look at what happened.



grouphug



-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: andrealee


uhm. Doc. you do realize you are on a poi forum? I mean, yeah, we are interested in the subject, learning and debating and expressing opinoins, but can we really be expected by you to solve the middle east crisis? it is you who needs to get real .



So what you're saying is that you have the arbitrary to hate Israel because you feel like it. You concede with this that Israel has no reasonable alternative to its actions and that you cannot offer a different viable solution.

And now you tell me to back off because I challenged you on diatrabes made about Israel killing civilians and being the agressor in a conflict it neither started nor wanted.

Go think. I mean really think. Allow your opinions to follow your thoughts.

It's amazing how many things I've learned that way. I opened my mind.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: andrealee


Yikes! I dont agree that whats currently being done is necessarily actually the best thing!



Then what IS the best thing? And I mean something that would actually work? You can't expect Israel to go for something they know won't work and never worked and then hate them when they don't. That's not an educated opinion, it's a gut reaction.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: GitasGuy



Doc if your neighbour was a wanted criminal and just by chance the police raided your house and you were killed. Do you see that to be acceptable.
These poor (one without money) people cant choose what terrorist cell moves in next door to them (so to speak) yet they become the victims.
They have hit nobody but now they are being hit!!!!



Gee. Then Hezbollah shouldn't have held them there at gunpoint when they knew they were going to get fired upon.

What Hezbollah has done is to arrange the slaughter of their own people to suit their own ends. And those ends are to force international opinion against Israel. It's disgusting. Like staging your own family's death to collect the insurance.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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GitasGuy
GitasGuy

Pooh-Bah
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 6th Jun 2006
Total posts: 2303
Posted:Got another question for you Doc. Supposedly Israel started this war to retrieve there 2 soldiers. Do you think they are still alive? and if so, if the terrorist gave them back would Israel stop the invasion!!!!
Keeping in mind this was there reasoning for retaliation in the first place?


:admires giant wooden aeroplane: Its about time trees were good for something, instead of just standing their like jerks!!! ubblol ubbtickled

Homer rocks!!!! ubblol ubbrollsmile

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: GitasGuy


Got another question for you Doc. Supposedly Israel started this war to retrieve there 2 soldiers.



Correction. Hezbollah started this war by kidnapping two soldiers. It's not just about the kidnapping.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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GitasGuy
GitasGuy

Pooh-Bah
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 6th Jun 2006
Total posts: 2303
Posted:Israel started it offensive on the grounds of retrieving the kidnapped soldiers.
Which was just a good excuse to flex their muscles once again, knowing no one in the region can stop then and they have the USA wrapped around their little finger


:admires giant wooden aeroplane: Its about time trees were good for something, instead of just standing their like jerks!!! ubblol ubbtickled

Homer rocks!!!! ubblol ubbrollsmile

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:Mike, you are not even making sense. I have in no way ever said anything like I hate Isreal! re read. I have not acted out of hate in any way. And I do nothing arbitrarily.



I did not tell you to back off. I just said I thought you were repeating yourself, being boring by doing so, and not listening/respecting to other opinions. That that limits what one can learn from a debate. Personal opinion, that.



Also that in terms of actually answering what might be a better response to the crisis in the middle east, I simply stated that there are people more qualified than either of us to answer that. Me not knowing a good solution, or rather offering one that meets with your approval, does not mean there is not one! I have no need to concede anything. I dont even see us in conflict!





I do think, and I think if you read what I write you can see that. Most of my ideas are presented quite clearly, really. Many of them originated with and are shared by people much more informed than myself. Others I am still working on, trying to sort them out, growing new concepts, analysing exploring and integrating what I do know and what others tell me.



I have no idea why you are off on a little tempermental tangent of your own?care to explain?



My question regarding perception of persecution is very relevant, and you ignored it. I see no evidence that your mind is open, sadly.



I think we can see by your reactions to a genuine discussion, how easily conflict breeds and festers.



I repeat: I do not hate Isreal. I do not support the Hezbolla. I do not hate, period. I am trying to learn discuss and understand. I want to explore the possibilities for a non violent or less violent solution to some of the problems in Lebanon. My motivation is compassion. Does that clarify anything for you?



Obviously, you are not a good person for me to learn about these things with right now!



I am not interested in engaging in conflict. That is the essence, really.



The solution to this one is easy, at least. hug


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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