Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
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Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


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Birgit
Birgit

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Posted: Written by: NYC


Who watches the watchmen?




German newspages are quite confusing at the moment... it's like a battle between supporters and critics, on the same site. It's interesting how the papers can't (or won't?) decide for one point of view. Though there seems to be a distinct lack of a point of view that's somewhere in between wink


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NYC
NYC

NYC
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Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: sagetree


doc, do you have a response to this? killing civilians is NOT the only way to fight terrorism. it's actually a way to join the ranks of a terrorist and to continue the cycle that leads to more terrorism in the future.



My response is how does one go in there and kill terrorists without breaking anything else when the terrorists use civilians as shields?

You keep saying "do it without killing civilians." But HOW?



Easy, just stop the terrorists without killing civilians. If the terrorists have made sure that they are so imbedded in the midst of innocent civilians and have intimidated innocent civilians to stand in the line of fire to protect them, assuring that any attack on them would kill innocent civilians, then all you need to do is stop the terrorists without harming innocent civilians.

Why is this so hard for you to understand Mike?

kiss


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sagetree
sagetree

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Posted: Written by: Professor Alan Dershowitz


The laws of war and the rules of morality must adapt to these realities. An analogy to domestic criminal law is instructive: A bank robber who takes a teller hostage and fires at police from behind his human shield is guilty of murder if the police, in an effort to stop the robber from shooting, accidentally kill the hostage. The same should be true of terrorists who use civilians as shields from behind whom they fire their rockets. The terrorists must be held legally and morally responsible for the deaths of the civilians, even if the direct physical cause was an Israeli rocket aimed at those targeting Israeli citizens.



good point and i agree

but what about:

 Written by: Human Rights Watch



(Beirut, July 24, 2006) Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said today. Researchers on the ground in Lebanon confirmed that a cluster munitions attack on the village of Blida on July 19 killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians, including seven children. Human Rights Watch researchers also photographed cluster munitions in the arsenal of Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border.

"Cluster munitions are unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "They should never be used in populated areas."

According to eyewitnesses and survivors of the attack interviewed by Human Rights Watch, Israel fired several artillery-fired cluster munitions at Blida around 3 p.m. on July 19. The witnesses described how the artillery shells dropped hundreds of cluster submunitions on the village. They clearly described the submunitions as smaller projectiles that emerged from their larger shells.



and:

 Written by: diary of Lebanese American Reem Mobassaleh (who was in lebanon last week)


Do not think for a second that anything about these attacks is simply aimed at weakening Hizballah. It is weakening the whole country, trying to break us all. Today, the Israeli army gave the people of the Southern Lebanese town of Marwahin two hours to leave their village. Out of fear, they packed up and started to leave. Shortly after they left their village, Israeli helicopters targeted their cars, killing 23 people, 9 of whom were children. These were not long-range missiles that accidentally landed on the fleeing civilians. These were targeted missiles fired from helicopters just above them. The majority of the more than 150 people that Israel has killed in the last few days are children. They are demolishing the country, having bombed both Muslim and Christian areas. All forms of civilian infrastructure have been hit. And Israel has precluded us from any form of escape. By air is impossible since they've decimated our airport. By sea is impossible since Israeli battleships line our shore and have bombed our ports. By land is impossible since Israel has bombed all the roads between Lebanon and Syria and demolished all connecting roads and bridges in the southern half of the country.



?


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dream
dream

currently mending
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Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:This doesn't really seem to be getting any further... just a couple of points i wanted to pick up on though...

 Written by:

Birgit, given the background of the middle-east, the abduction of two soldiers was little more than an excuse Israel gave to start this war, and to pull out of peace negotiations with Hamas.




Stone, there never have been peace talks between Hamas and Israel. As Hamas refuses to accept Israel as any form of state or authority that should be fairly obvious. Any form of negociation denotes an implict recognition of the other party.

One of the probable causes for Hamas militants killing and abducting Israeli soldiers was that there was a reasonable chance that this was about to change as Hamas's political wing are being economically crippled by the fact that the US and EU have cut off aid to the PA which they have said will not be resumed until Hamas recognises Israel and removes its statement regarding the destruction of the state of Israel from its charter.

By provoking Israel into a military response the militants have ensured that for a while this will not happen.


the second point was andrea's comment about indiscriminate bombing, which i've heard from several places - along with similar comments about an unrestrained military offensive. The israeli response has in my eyes been overly harsh, but it certainly is not indiscriminate or unrestrained. In two weeks of heavy aeirial bombardment the IDF has killed under 400 Lebanese. Given the array of weapons at their disposal (nuclear and conventional), and the extent to which they have destroyed Lebanese infrastructure (again some of which I feel has gone too far) this is a very low number. Its less people dead than the Madrid train bombers. And far fewer lives than the militias in Iraq have claimed over the same period of time despite their lack of military equiptment which has anything like the same amount of power.

Based on this I'd have to say the Israelis have made an attempt to minimise the loss of civillian life in their campaign - but that the extent and style of the campaign (massive aeirial destruction of infrastructure and some residential areas including parts of beirut)necesssitates the loss of civillian lives... as such what I question is the style of campaign the IDF has waged... but then i guess they didn't want a repeat of 82 when they went in on the ground...

battery dying... gotta go. sorry


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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BansheeCat
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Posted:Hmmn, perhaps indiscriminate was not the most accurate term to use. I did not mean randomly bombing, and was not thinking simply of civilian casualties- though that is certainly a huge concern of mine.But I meant attacking /bombing in a way that did not seem to bear relationship either the intent of recovering the soldiers kidnapped or rousting the Hezbolla.



Destroying the infrastructure of Lebanon would seem to be a part of their agenda, and one I think we need to take quite seriously. That is why I raised the question about the influences involved in the rebuilding of Beirut... From the little I know of the region I get that Lebanon has been used as a pawn repeatedly by other governments/countries and terrorist agendas. They appearred to be getting out from under some of these influences at least, and stabilizing somewhat. Now this. Questionable timing. I am curious about why now.



Also still curious what 50000 Canadians were doing there. No one seems to be reporting about this in the coverage of their evacuation. 50,000 Canadian lives hugely impacted at any rate. Can you imagine having to just leave your life abruptly like that? Traumatic. And I dont mean to be-little the trauma of the Lebanese or Isrealis -- of course the impact on them is greater as they may not even have the option of a way out of the hostilities.



NYC, why do you think that no one else but you can read or listen to a variety of media sources and attempt to come to their own conclusions? nana



We can still discuss something , aware of media limitations, using the best range of information at our disposal-- staying open to the introduction of new facts and opinions as they come. In fact, I would say that would be the point of it.



What is your point?

wink


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Posted: Written by: sagetree


 Written by: Professor Alan Dershowitz


The laws of war and the rules of morality must adapt to these realities. An analogy to domestic criminal law is instructive: A bank robber who takes a teller hostage and fires at police from behind his human shield is guilty of murder if the police, in an effort to stop the robber from shooting, accidentally kill the hostage. The same should be true of terrorists who use civilians as shields from behind whom they fire their rockets. The terrorists must be held legally and morally responsible for the deaths of the civilians, even if the direct physical cause was an Israeli rocket aimed at those targeting Israeli citizens.



good point and i agree

but what about:

 Written by: Human Rights Watch



(Beirut, July 24, 2006) Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said today. Researchers on the ground in Lebanon confirmed that a cluster munitions attack on the village of Blida on July 19 killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians, including seven children. Human Rights Watch researchers also photographed cluster munitions in the arsenal of Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border.

"Cluster munitions are unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "They should never be used in populated areas."

According to eyewitnesses and survivors of the attack interviewed by Human Rights Watch, Israel fired several artillery-fired cluster munitions at Blida around 3 p.m. on July 19. The witnesses described how the artillery shells dropped hundreds of cluster submunitions on the village. They clearly described the submunitions as smaller projectiles that emerged from their larger shells.



and:

 Written by: diary of Lebanese American Reem Mobassaleh (who was in lebanon last week)


Today, the Israeli army gave the people of the Southern Lebanese town of Marwahin two hours to leave their village. Out of fear, they packed up and started to leave. Shortly after they left their village, Israeli helicopters targeted their cars, killing 23 people, 9 of whom were children. These were not long-range missiles that accidentally landed on the fleeing civilians. These were targeted missiles fired from helicopters just above them. The majority of the more than 150 people that Israel has killed in the last few days are children.



My response: How much warning did Hezbollah give civilians before launching rockets into their home? NONE.

Who, exactly, was Hezbollah's first attack aimed at? CIVILIANS. No military target to be seen.

Hezbollah has also bragged that more women and children have been killed than armed men. I find this disgusting.

Israel fights under the Geneva Convention. They warn civilians to evacuate. They do hit civilian targets because it is impossible to be surgical.

Hezbollah hides behind civilians and targets civilians.

And this is why we need a wall. And a stern warning that the first rocket fired over the wall means that Israel will invade and take the country. And they can do it if they want to. Israel has, person-for-person, the best military in the world.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Posted:Sagetree, I'm awaiting your answer as to how one kills terrorists and guerillas hiding among civilians without hurting the civilians.

Because I'm sure there are a few Israeli Generals who would love to know that, too...


-Mike )'(
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"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
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Posted:right... that's just ridiculous. 1 rocket and Israel invades the country? Like, even if the majority of Lebanese or Syrians or Palestinians (if that counts as a country in that respect) decides to leave Israel alone, and 1 militant fires off a rocket, Israel's given the right to take the whole country? Sorry, that's just a REALLY bad idea. But it'd probably get the support from the USA wink

Well done for hitting that UN/Unifil post and killing 4 people who I suppose hid Hezboolah terrorists, too, by the way! frown


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Posted: Written by: Birgit


right... that's just ridiculous. 1 rocket and Israel invades the country? Like, even if the majority of Lebanese or Syrians or Palestinians (if that counts as a country in that respect) decides to leave Israel alone, and 1 militant fires off a rocket, Israel's given the right to take the whole country? Sorry, that's just a REALLY bad idea. But it'd probably get the support from the USA wink

Well done for hitting that UN/Unifil post and killing 4 people who I suppose hid Hezboolah terrorists, too, by the way! frown



Again, if you don't want to get hit, don't hit.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Birgit
Birgit

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Posted:Hmmm. I somehow doubt the UN attacked Israel. Unless I'm entirely misinformed.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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BansheeCat
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Posted:Mike, I think the only answer we have so far about how to get terrorists who are hiding amongst civilians may have to do with the intelligence systems of a country, how they acquire information through "spys", surveillance systems and infiltration.



We just did a little of that here in Canada and managed to arrest 20 terrorists,and confiscate an enormous amount of bomb materials and weaponry, with absolutely no collateral damage.These people were prepared to bomb the parliment buildings, kill the PM, and other assorted acts of terrorism.



If the current intelligence and spy systems are inadequate to manage this on a large scale, such as might be requirred in that region, then they had better get busy developing them fast. This approach has a number of problems, of course, but at least is potentially less damaging than bombing civilians. Though the loss of privacy and personal rights may in the long term be a fairly significant societal concern for individuals and populations.



As when considering most tricky cultural problems, while looking at short term relief and resolution-plans to stop violence , it might also be beneficial to attempt to develop some long term adjustments, possibilities based on economics and social structures. For example, some people have been looking at the fact that in areas where the young men are educated, constructively employed, safe and productive in their lives, they are a lot less likely to be swayed by political radicals and join any sort of violent actions including the military. Busy, happy, perhaps just not all that motivated to put themselves in the line of fire, or kill others I guess.



I am not suggesting this would always be the case or anything, but there are certainly situations where this sort of social analysis could be looked at, and used, in addition to the various cultural programs, one of which I mentionned earlier.



Even if we do not know what to do to solve a given problem, I still think we should be careful about taking, and supporting, actions that we know to be ineffective and inhumane, just cause we cant think of anything better.



Targeting a UN observation post? Intentional? Shame. Unintentional? Even more shame-- case and point; Isreals method of handling the situation is ineffectual, inaccurate, dangerous and inhumane.


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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

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Posted: Written by: Birgit



Hmmm. I somehow doubt the UN attacked Israel. Unless I'm entirely misinformed.



UN accused of complicity with Hezbollah in murder of Israelis



Admittedly, the death of the UN "observers" in Lebanon was probably unintentional. Still, one must wonder why the UN peacekeeping forces that have been in Lebanon for so many years have done nothing to stop the rocket attacks on Israel. Even if we assume that corrupt UN forces are not looking the other way during Hezbollah attacks, they have at a minimum been proven ineffective.



Actually, it is good that the UN is ineffective. Otherwise it's tendency toward antisemitism might be cause for concern.



And no, it was not "1 rocket and Israel invades the country." If the media were doing it's job, we would have been hearing daily reports for years and years now of Hezbollah targeting Israeli homes with thousands upon thousands of rocket attacks, and seen the pictures of the innocent children that were the targets.



I had wondered for some time why the Israelis were doing such damage, on purpose, to civilian areas rather than trying to take out specific Hezbollah sites and agents. For a while, I chalked it up to the fact that Hezbollah is spread through the civilian areas intentionally, so that they can win any media war. Now, it is all starting to make more sense. I heard today that Israel announced it's strategy: to create a safety buffer zone extending well into both Israel and Lebanon.



This fits with what Doc has been calling for: a wall, but will work a lot better. A wall is thin, and meant to stop ground based attackers (like suicide bombers). They already have a wall of sorts (a thin sand strip with fences that is monitored) between Israel and Lebanon. The problem is that this does not stop rocket attacks. Hezbollah drives up on a pickup truck, fires a rocket or two, then flees into a civilian area as fast as they can. A wall would have to be very tall to stop this sort of attack.



Thus, it seems they will create a buffer zone free of civilians. This is why they told the civilians to leave, and have been destroying the infrastructure to keep them from comming back. Once the civilians are driven away and have no reason to come back, Israel can protect itself much better. Anyone entering the zone can be assumed to be up to no good. If Hezbollah tries to launch attacks from that area, they will not have civilian areas to flee to. Israel can then do what has been asked of them: kill terrorists without hurting civilians.



Brilliant? Yes. Perfect? No. Some civilians are unwilling or unable to get out in time, and they have been hurt and killed. Thankfully, despite how it is being reported, collateral damage to civilians has been kept to a minimum.



Thus, we can understand now why they are using innacurate cluster weapons and such. They are not trying to do surgery to remove Hezbollah. They are removing Hezbollah's greatest weapon. They told the civilians to leave, and are in the process of destroying the area to keep them from comming back.



This is the sort of strategy that takes a lot of guts. To intentionally destroy civilian infrastructure and force people to move seems cruel, and they had to have known that some civilians would be killed in the destruction. The bad PR gives them limmitted time to accomplish the mission. Still, It makes sense now why the biggest thing going on there is mass movements of people back into the country, and out of it.



Israel is making an effort to disarm and destroy Hezbollah along the way. There have been reports about how many rockets have been destroyed, and how many Hezbollah have been killed, but neither of these seemed to be accomplished efficiently. It all makes sense now.



Israel must realize, as has been pointed out, that eliminating Hezbollah would be a difficult task for them. Hezbollah is supported and armed by Syria and Iran, and it will take a great international effort to take on these countries. Thus, in the meantime, Israel is setting itself up to fight Hezbollah. They seem to have made the choice to take some bad PR regarding their treatment of Lebanon civilians for these few weeks, so as to set themselves up to be able to fight in the future without hurting civilians.



Sounds like a good idea, at least for stopping rocket attacks. Of course, Iran has threatened to nuke them. A wall will not stop rockets, and a zone will not stop nukes. However, the Israelis managed to keep Iraq from being able to use nukes against them, and I doubt we will see any mushroom clouds in Israel anytime soon.



Thankfully, it seems they have also come up with a good way to keep us from seeing more rocket attacks from Hezbollah.



They have also announced that they would be willing to agree to a ceasefire under certain conditions... such as an international peacekeeping force being moved into the area. This would seem to be a win/win agreement for them to make. If we accept, we will have to occupy Lebanon and try to take on Hezbollah in an Iraq type situation. Hezbollah will turn their attention to the peacekeeping forces, and make the whole world mad at them.



If we refuse or delay putting troops in Lebanon to fight Hezbollah, Israel simply gets more time to set things up to better defend themselves without our help.



I wish America could come up with plans like this. It seems we have to drop nukes or invade with 5,000 ships to get anything done right.



Extra reading:

Security Zone



Short discussion of the history leading up to this conflict


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Posted: Written by: andrealee



We just did a little of that here in Canada and managed to arrest 20 terrorists,and confiscate an enormous amount of bomb materials and weaponry, with absolutely no collateral damage.These people were prepared to bomb the parliment buildings, kill the PM, and other assorted acts of terrorism.

If the current intelligence and spy systems are inadequate to manage this on a large scale, such as might be requirred in that region, then they had better get busy developing them fast. This approach has a number of problems, of course, but at least is potentially less damaging than bombing civilians. Though the loss of privacy and personal rights may in the long term be a fairly significant societal concern for individuals and populations.



Wait a sec, you think that developing an EXTERNAL intelligence network capable of tracking every single terrorist and guerilla in REAL TIME is anything like finding a few isolated bands (like 20 terrorists) inside a civilized first-world country like Canada?

Um...no. Nobody knows how to do that. Believe me, Israel would *LOVE* to be able to do that. Imagine how much trouble it would save them. ubblol


-Mike )'(
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"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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BansheeCat
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Posted:No Mike, I dont think it is the same thing. But finding terrorists in Canada is actually quite an accomplishment- we dont have all that many ya know. wink



I do think stategical targeting through surveillance, infiltration and other spylike activities, maybe even assassins- is an aspect of terrorist control that needs development. In fact, most countries fighting terrorism seem to agree with me, cause they are all taking steps to do exactly that... Well, okay, maybe not cultivating assassins, but who knows? Soon?





People/societies begin things they dont know how to accomplish all the time, so they can grow and learn through the process of trying. Figuring out new, constructive ways of doing things will be essential to ending this conflict, since the old ways have not been successful. Though some of them are worth building on. I doubt there is one magic silver bullet method out there-- and that includes the idea of a wall! I am just tossing out ideas of different tactics that could be emphasized and explored as alternatives to bombing an entire nation in order to get some terrorists.



Do you have any ideas other than walls? If the problem is cultural, how do we go about changing a culture? Can we? They do change, but how can one predict, influence or control that change?


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Posted: Written by: andrealee


No Mike, I dont think it is the same thing. But finding terrorists in Canada is actually quite an accomplishment- we dont have all that many ya know. wink Do you have any ideas other than walls? If the problem is cultural, how do we go about changing a culture? Can we? They do change, but how can one predict, influence or control that change?



The difference is those terrorists aren't actively shooting at you. These are. Intelligence is SLOW. Effective, but slow. But once the rockets come sailing over the border, intelligence is no longer useful and you have to hit at where the rockets came from.

I don't *LIKE* the wall idea. But it's all there is.

The other solution is to completely eliminate our dependence on oil. Bankrupt the MoFo's.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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BansheeCat
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Posted:oh, now there's an idea I can get behind! clap
ubbrollsmile


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Posted:Yeah. A wall is more practical for the time being. Make me dictator for life and I would eliminate funding for ONE supercarrier and funnel it into research into nuclear fusion. I bet we could have a working reactor in 20 years with enough funding.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
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Posted:Just hypothetically...

If one Israeli settler decided to live on the other side of the wall, would that give anyone the right to invade Israel?

I have another good idea, why not stop weapons transports to both sides and the first country that breaks that agreement can be invaded, too? Or maybe given to those Palestinians and Israelis that won't mind cohabiting peacefully / split up fairly in terms of big cities and natural resources?


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sagetree
sagetree

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Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


My response: How much warning did Hezbollah give civilians before launching rockets into their home? NONE.

Who, exactly, was Hezbollah's first attack aimed at? CIVILIANS. No military target to be seen.

Hezbollah has also bragged that more women and children have been killed than armed men. I find this disgusting.

Sagetree, I'm awaiting your answer as to how one kills terrorists and guerillas hiding among civilians without hurting the civilians.



not once have i defended hezbollahs actions. i just don't agree with some of the ways Israel is 'defending' themselves.

and as andrealea said "Even if we do not know what to do to solve a given problem, I still think we should be careful about taking, and supporting, actions that we know to be ineffective and inhumane, just cause we cant think of anything better."

i don't know of an effective way to attack terrorist hiding behind civilians without killing civilians but that doesn't mean i will support the killing of children and innocent people in any way.

patriarch917 - your post makes a lot of sense to me. i still think that Israel could have told the people of lebanon that they have 1 month to evacuate the 'buffer zone' before moving in. if hezbollah has been bombing them for so long then i think they could have waited another month. although this would give hezbollah a month to prepare i think it would have been a better decision than causing so many civilian casualties. i agree that an international force in the buffer zone is the best temporary solution.


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NYC
NYC

NYC
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Posted: Written by: Birgit


right... that's just ridiculous. 1 rocket and Israel invades the country?



ONE rocket?!? Wow, the BBC is worse than I thought!


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Yes, let's go.
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Birgit
Birgit

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Posted:lol... read the context tongue



I was replying to Doc's idea about the wall and whoever shoots one rocket being invaded (by Israel, because they never strike first).



By the way, I've stopped watching tv 4 months ago, and don't read the news on the bbc either. I usually think German media are quite good for Israel coverage, because (quite understandable from German history) they seem to see a responsibility between disliking violence and war, and respect for a country that would not exist or exist in a different way if my country hadn't fxcked up big time. Apart from that I find it easier to think about world politics in my native language wink


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FireTom
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Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: Reuters

Israel has also been waging an offensive in Gaza since June 28 to recover a soldier seized by Palestinian militants. Israeli forces killed 10 Palestinians, including seven militants and a three-year-old child, on Wednesday, medics and witnesses said. Altogether 130 Palestinians have been killed in the offensive.



Unfortunately I have been wrong in my earlier statement.

 Written by: Reuters

Al Jazeera television said 13 Israeli soldiers had been killed during clashes with Hizbollah guerrillas in a south Lebanese village. Israeli medics reported heavy casualties.

Hizbollah sources said their fighters had foiled Israeli attempts to evacuate casualties from Bint Jbeil, four km (2.5 miles) inside Lebanon. "Our men can hear the screams of their wounded calling for help," one source said.



shrug no comment


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: sagetree


i don't know of an effective way to attack terrorist hiding behind civilians without killing civilians but that doesn't mean i will support the killing of children and innocent people in any way.




That's called hypocracy, then.

And Israel DID warn civilians to evacuate. Gave them two days, more than enough time.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917


Pull it up on google maps. I challenge you to find a better vacation spot. Look at the areas above and below the gaza strip to see what can be done with that area.




Patriarch, you certainly managed to extract a lot of information just by looking at the area using Google maps! I'm very impressed. Or maybe some of your info about the paradise that the Palestinians were given by the big hearted Israelis came from your neigbourhood synagog?

I happen to have friends in the UK who've spent a lot of time volunteering in the occupied territories, including Gaza. What they have seen out there is a little different from what you describe, which makes me wonder who exactly has been feeding you this information.


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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: NYC


Mike, you might find it interesting to know that the news coverage out here (UK) is GROSSLY anti-israeli. One of the news casters even said something like "Hezbolla rockets keep raining down on Israel as Israeli artillary shoots back over the border. Both sides seem equally guilty of trying to kill as many civilians as possible."



According to CNN (not BBC) around 392 Lebanese have been killed, mostly civilian, and 41 Israelis have been killed, out of which19 were civilians.

So how exactly is the UK media GROSSLY anti-Israeli and biased??? I think the UK media is more balanced than the American media, but it is still biased in favour of Israel.


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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:alright, i've been avoiding posting in here for a while, but here's something forya:

BBC article

CNN article

for that measure, CNN also goes on to state the numbers of dead and injured on both sides. The BBC also states that the Israeli retaliation began after the kidnapping of two soldiers, which is true, but also ignores the fact that Hezbollah killed three soldiers in the process.

same events, different reporting

what was also interesting to read was the correspondence between the two men, one Lebanese, one Israeli, and to particularly note what the BBC decided to use in its little quote boxes

shrug


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!



 Written by: Patriarch917



Pull it up on google maps. I challenge you to find a better vacation spot. Look at the areas above and below the gaza strip to see what can be done with that area.







Patriarch, you certainly managed to extract a lot of information just by looking at the area using Google maps! I'm very impressed. Or maybe some of your info about the paradise that the Palestinians were given by the big hearted Israelis came from your neigbourhood synagog?



I happen to have friends in the UK who've spent a lot of time volunteering in the occupied territories, including Gaza. What they have seen out there is a little different from what you describe, which makes me wonder who exactly has been feeding you this information.





I didn't say I extracted my info from google maps. I merely suggested that you try it.



You are incorrect in thinking about where I get my info (I know no person named "Synagog.") Still, the mere fact that you are attempting to probe my sources indicates that you are probably a spy. If you have read The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, I am sure that you know what is done with spies.



Your friends tell you something different from what I have described? All I said was that it would be challenging to find a better vacation spot, and suggested you look at it to see what can be done with that area. If your friends think that it would not be challenging to find a better vacation spot... then my guess is that this is not due to the land itself... but rather the people living there.



As far as speculating about who is feeding me information, surely you know that google itself is part of the zionist conspiracy.



wink ubblol


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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:Mike! Are you kidding? Two days enough time to evacuate? Damn, I can hardly pack for a weekend camping trip with that!



Seriously, we are hearing from the Canadians evacuated about how they were in car convoys trying to leave, and the convoys got bombed... intentionally, low flying aircraft that could see exactly what they were doing. Also about how the various methods of evacuation were deliberately being destroyed, blocked etc etc.Perhaps it is nowhere as easy as it seems to evacuate an entire country!What is the population of non Hezbollah Lebanese? Huge I am sure.



Oh yeah, and while you might call Sagetree's stance *hypocracy*, -and I do find your use of the term in this context ironic considering the origins of the word, and the vow doctors traditionally take- others might simply respect their position of *pacifism*.



Some might even see it as logical and/or moral, to take a stand against the killing of innocents. Like Gandi, who as we all know did a pretty amazing job getting rid of a whole violent army of occupation...



Firetom- cold to debate? What? I think not. I think it is much colder to *not* look at a problem that is far far away and not directly effecting us... Which is what much of the apathetic population does.



Debate stimulates ideas and action, can be quite a powerful motivator and form the basis for some healthy change. Even if we never get out to Lebanon, we might create change/pressure within our various governments and policies, or do some relief work elsewhere, take in a refugee, or go on a peace march or or or?



Not cold, becoming interested is the first step in becoming informed, which is the first step in becoming involved...

Debate is a facilitator of this process.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Igirisujin
Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 2666
Posted: Written by: NYC


 Written by: Birgit


right... that's just ridiculous. 1 rocket and Israel invades the country?



ONE rocket?!? Wow, the BBC is worse than I thought!



Unfortunatly the british media isnt terribly good in my opinion. The media is more interested in popular opinion and attacking individuals because that way it gets more sales in this country. Also the people in charge seem to lack the abilty to stay nuetral, and we no longer get presented with facts, where presented with theire own biased opinions.

About (I should really learn how to spell this, im sorry its going to be spelled wrong all through my post lol) Israils heavy handed tactics. That is there tried and testing method of defending themselvs and ensuring they have survived. Its one of the reasons they have a reputation for being one of the most highly skilled armys in the world, especialy when you look at its size which is much smaller than many many others, they are highly trained and as a result highly skilled.

Its a tactic they use to theire advantage very effectivly. I dread to think what would have happend long ago if they had taken a more western, say for example of the British approach recently before the second world war of appeasment. We failed to stop Hitler when many people thiorize we could have, and allowed him the time to plan and take on an approach that enabled Germany and its allies to invade and take allmost all of western Europe, with the death tole reaching astonishing figures, because we failed t act in time.

Israil acts when they are provoked and it sends a clear message to terrorist organisations. If you attack us, we will do the same. The simply cannot afford to take no action, its very easy to wagyour finger at israil and say 'dont do that turn the other cheak'. we as we are safe thousands of miles away in our own countrys. Israil is surrounded by extremists whos absolute goal is to rid the earth of israilys.


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:Still trying to understand why you guys think it is a show of strength/defense for Isreal to have have responded to Hezbollas terrorists tactics by bombing Lebanon. The part that I dont get is why you would think it will work to stop the terrorism. If the people can evacuate, so can the terrorists. The terrorist organizations probably have more resources for escape at their disposal, and perhaps even plans to that effect. So they are unlikely to be wiped out, or even broken down all that much. Goal unaccomplished, the terrorists live.



Meanwhile, Lebanon is being destroyed. Civilians killed. I mean, do you think the terrorists care about the Lebanese civilians, the infrastructure and their homes? Care sufficiently to change their behaviour? Somehow I do not think so. If they are willing to use the civilians as shields they obviously dont have any compunction against getting them killed.



So with this recent attack Isreal sends the message: provoke us, and we will viciously attack a bunch of people you dont really give a f--ck about? Whats that supposed to do?



And the continuing terror breeds more terrorists, so not only is the problem not solved, it is compounded.



How is this reasonable response?


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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