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Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:It sounds, though, like you are asking for a unilateral ceasefire from Israel. Perhaps I am misunderstanding. Are you asking for the Israelis to stop attacking Hezbollah and Hamas, in exchange for those organizations renouncing their goal of destroying Israel, stopping their rocket attacks and bombings, and giving back the kidnapped soldiers?



It would seem that if we do nothing when the terrorists attack Israel, then stop Israel from fighting back, then we would merely be taking the side of the terrorists in this fight.



Of course, perhaps one could argue that we should not leave it to Israel to deal with these organizations, but rather that we should move massive amounts of troops in to control the countries and take out the terrorists with room to room combat so as to minimalize civilian casualties.



Hezbollah and Hamas must be disarmed and destroyed. Until then, Israel can have no repose. A wall will slow certain attacks, but not keep them out. Hamas killed and kidnapped Israeli soldiers through a tunnel they built, and it is easy to launch mortars accross any normal wall. Besides, Iran has promised to destroy Israel, and is pursuing nuclear weapons. No wall will stop that.



The only way to achieve peace is to convince the enemies of Israel to become their friends, or to destroy them. We have tried being nice to the Palestinians, giving them their own country, an opportunity to govern themselves, and international aid. In response, they voted to continue to try to destroy Israel. Generosity seems not to be working... they merely take our gifts and turn them against us... much like the North Koreans did with the nuclear technology given to them by Clinton.



I will insist that Israel stop their attacks when their enemies surrender and repent, or are destroyed.



It has been implied that working toward destroying Hezbollah and Hamas will only make more terrorists. I disagree. If the world gets behind Israel in this task, I think we can eliminate or nuetralize them.



Rather, a unilateral ceasefire at this point would increase the number of terrorists. We would leave those organizations in place, and they would have had a victory. We would have sent them the message that they can continue to work towards destroying Israel, and that we will not resist them or allow Israel to get rid of them.



What other hope can they have, other than that other western countries will continue offering them ceasefires and aid in the wake of their attacks? The nations around Israel know that they cannot win an all out war to retake Israel, especially if the U.S. helps Israel. Instead, all they can do is continue to launch rockets, mortars, suicide bombers, kidnappings, and other small attacks with the hope that when Israel gets fed up and starts to take them out, we will make them stop.



Peace will not be accomplished by feeding the beast of terrorism with appeasement every time it attacks. This will only make the enemy grow stronger. We must stop the defeatist attitude that says our resistance will make our enemies stronger. We must summon up the resolve to fight those that wish to destroy the Jews... and the rest of us. We must stop lying to ourselves that they are just misguided people who really want to live in peace with Israel. They know exactly what they are doing, and they hope that we will continue to stick our heads in the sand when they attack Israel.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


My focus is on the fact that Israeli revenge attacks that kill/maim innocents, are-

1. wrong
2. don't stop future violence
3. breeds terrorists, terrorist support and guarantees future violence and an escalation of that violence.



So, guerillas approach your borders and fire rockets into civilian homes. The appropriate response is...?

Israel's response is "drive them away from the border."

I agree, the idiocy of it is that the attacks only incense the civilians whose homes they're now destroying. Of course, it's the fault of the guerillas for using civilian homes as shelters and shields, but when the IDF knocks down your home you tend to blame them rather than the guerillas who were occupying the home next to you.

So my solution is to build a wall against Palestine and Lebanon. Anyone approaching within, say, 100 meters of the wall will be fired upon on sight. Make it well-known. That way, anyone approaching the wall cannot be called an "innocent" because they must have known what was coming to them.

And then let it sit that way for about 40 years until the next generation wonders what all the fuss was about.

We can continue to talk, Dave. And the bodies can continue to pile up. But I'm interested in stopping the killing. I'm more interested in stopping the killing than I am in some dead dream of some idyllic "peace" wherein Arabs and Jews join hands and dance.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917


We have tried being nice to the Palestinians, giving them their own country, an opportunity to govern themselves, and international aid.



This has to be one of the funniest / sadest things I've read in a while! Have you seen the movie Escape from New York? I suppose the convicts in New York were also given their own country and an opportunity to govern themselves!


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...

Total posts: 2790
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


So my solution is to build a wall against Palestine and Lebanon. Anyone approaching within, say, 100 meters of the wall will be fired upon on sight. Make it well-known. That way, anyone approaching the wall cannot be called an "innocent" because they must have known what was coming to them.

And then let it sit that way for about 40 years until the next generation wonders what all the fuss was about.




As hesistant as I am to enter this debate, I cannot contain my curiosity:

How do you expect the next generation just to "wonder what all the fuss was about" when, by the time that should be happening, they'll already have held as much as 40 years of resentment about having their freedom restricted by walls built by this generation, one which also hasn't had the foresight to teach them the example of how to negotiate peacefully? confused


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I'm sure there's an ideal solution out there somewhere...

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


I'm sure there's an ideal solution out there somewhere...



ubblol ubblol ubblol

Possibly the best thing I've seen from the Onion...


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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear,...

Total posts: 4693
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


I'm sure there's an ideal solution out there somewhere...



ubblol

what a comprehensive plan, ol'god always has the best plans!


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:I'm just trying to figure out why there are 50,000 Canadian citizens in Lebanon.?!! We are in the process of evacuating them all. All. 50,000. I thought Lebanon was small? What the heck are they all doing there?



Yesh. It's no joke, evacuating that many.



Wish we could evacuate everyone else that wanted to go too.I am deeply concerned that once all the foreign nationals are out, it will be a free for all and Isreal will go mad --more mad--slaughtering the Lebanese without compunction. At least if there were a whole hoarde of 50,000 Canadians in the line of fire they might think twice. Or not. They dont seem to be very rational in selecting what/who they bomb. Many of the target sites have had nothing whatsoever to do with terrorist bases.



Bombing the s--t out of a countries infrastructure and killing innocent civilians is simply not a rational or acceptable response to kidnapping or even to terrorist bombings. It is sick and crazy. This is not a war, Lebanon is not their opponent. We would not tolerate it anywhere else, from anyone else-except perhaps the USA. Who have just expidited shipment of a whole sh-t load of missles to Isreal.



Why are we all just backing away from it here?



Doc, walls never work. There are no examples in history, thousands of years of history, of walls and/or segregation working to promote peace. Why on earth would you think it could now?Or or you just thinking they are like kids, and we can offer them a " time out" to think about their bad behaviour?

I wish I had a better solution.



Talking, negotiating release of prisoners, establishing a ceasefire- while they might not solve the long term problem, at least they could let people catch their breath, slow down the massacre, give a chance to think about better choices.



Real options aside from dialogue- the only one I have heard of having any effect at all was some efforts being made to take Isreali/Palestinian teens into an exchange program that took place in a foreign country. They became friends , talked about issues from both sides, and in a way bonded. At least in the three years follow up they retained the sense of the other side as real people with rights and concerns, had respect for each other, and could contemplate comprimise. Some of them even refused to their call to fight in the military.



Hezbolla, well, have no clue how to settle that one. But I can state without doubt that bombing Lebanon will not result in peace.



So what exactly is the point?



Hmmn, who gets the contracts to rebuild Beirut?


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lightning, what I said was Israel is not committed to peace because it fails to accept any responsibility for the conflict, and continues kill people. There have been many peace talks in the past, but every time negotiations get close to a peace settlement someone does something to keep the war going. This time it was an overreaction over a captive soldier. So, Ill ask you again why does Israel want this conflict to continue?




frown


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Stone


Lightning, what I said was Israel is not committed to peace because it fails to accept any responsibility for the conflict, and continues kill people.



One might say the same of the other side. And Israel just gave back the Gaza strip. That's quite a move there.

In fact, neither side is committed to peace and will never be committed to peace no matter what happens. Yup. Believe it.

So the fight has to be forceably stopped. Wall.

Two generations down the line when all the arseholes currently in charge are dead and now a new generation wonders who these people are on the other side of the wall, it can come down.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lightning, perhaps you could build another wall to fight over. Isnt this conflict really a fight over that other wall, the Western Wall and Temple Mount?


frown


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I think since you first compared it to the Berlin wall, it might be worth considering what I said about the "good" effects of that one...

How can you "wonder" who the people on the other side are when media tells you exactly who they are, and why the wall was put there (from their respective perspective)?


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Stone


Lightning, perhaps you could build another wall to fight over. Isnt this conflict really a fight over that other wall, the Western Wall and Temple Mount?





Nope. It's a cultural fight. And you're talking semantics. The Western Wall was never meant to keep invaders out.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Yell fire!
SILVER Member since May 2003

member
Location: London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: FireTom



Israel has at least provided the palestinians with their own nation - hey, this is not much, but has anything changed in return? Yellfire, sorry but I cannot follow up on your comparison between convicts and palestinians, or the situation in the movie "escape from new york" with the current situation.





FireTom, I agree, this is definitely not much. Israel has not provided the Palestinians with a 'nation'. All it has done is move out of areas with majority Palestinian populations, which were simply not manageable in the long run and created high security prisons. That is why I compared the situation to the movie. A walled in enclave in which you have no control over your air, land or sea borders, over what / who goes in, who goes out, is NOT a nation / country. It's a prison.



Yet we are expected to praise the Israelis for being so big hearted!



Contrary to what you may think, I have spent a lot of time talking to Israelis. I'm into the psychedelic trance scene so I run into them everywhere. I think for me, the big difference between Israelis and other nations where there have been similar conflicts / issues (eg South Africa, Northern Ireland, Germany many years ago, the US in Iraq) is that when you talk to many individuals and groups from all other nations, they accept some responsibility for the injustice and consequent suffering that their nations have caused and are generally very apologetic about it. I have yet to meet an Israeli who accepted that Israel has ever done anything wrong, or that the creation of Israel and it's present actions are in any way unjust.



Of course I have not met all Israelis, but I don't think I should have to. I have also not met all South Africans, Brits, Germans or Americans, but I have still met many people from these countries who accept that their countries have caused great suffering.

EDITED_BY: Yell fire! (1153758515)


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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!



Israel has not provided the Palestinians with a 'nation'. All it has done is move out of areas with majority Palestinian populations, which were simply not manageable in the long run and created high security prisons. That is why I compared the situation to the movie. A walled in enclave in which you have no control over your air, land or sea borders, over what / who goes in, who goes out, is NOT a nation / country. It's a prison.





Either you haven't seen the movie, or you haven't seen their new country.

Pull it up on google maps. I challenge you to find a better vacation spot. Look at the areas above and below the gaza strip to see what can be done with that area.

They were given a nation, not a prison. They were given their own little country with it's own borders, on some of the best real estate in the world. They were promised funding from Israel and others, and there is no shortage of private investors who would love to pour money in that area. They were extended every courtesy, and they had a chance to make it big.

What have they done? Rather than taking advantage of the generosity, they voted in a party with the goal of creating a war to destroy Israel. Rather than building ports, beaches, and resorts, they built a tunnel so they could come into Israel, kill a few soldiers, and kidnap another.

I agree with those who ask us to look to the past to see whether walls will work to solve this problem. To those asking for Israel to respond to being attacked with more efforts to appease... I suggest you look to the past to see if that is likely to work.


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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Isreal is attacking the wrong people. I could understand attacking the terrorists that bombed you with a huge amount of force, and maybe even approve of such action.If you knew you could effectively do so. But to bomb so indiscriminately a whole nation, is inexcuseable.



To say that they have trouble finding the leaders of the terrorist groups, and that the terrorists hide amongst civilians, may be true, but in no way justifies just killing a bunch of innocents that just happen to be nearby and may or may not have any influence at all over the situation. You cant get your attacker, so you take out their neighbor> What?! Ridiculous.



Even to assume that Lebanon has the power to get rid of Hizbolla is a stretch. Maybe, maybe not. The average Lebanese person probably does not. But bombing them is not the way to do it, regardless.



It may be slower and more difficult, but Isreal at least needs to make an effort to target the people doing the damage more accurately. If war is the only paradigm they can imagine to defend themselves with, well maybe a whole new kind of war is required. Slower, more careful, more specific targets.



And I would not agree that all the other methods used in the past have been completely ineffective. Some of the negotiations and accomodations and ceasefires have moved people closer to understanding and peace, and bought significant stretches of time without this level of destruction. They still need work, and hopefully people will work on developing those constructive methods of peace and diplomacy.



Firetom, I was puting the question out there about who rebuilds Beirut, suggesting it may be important to think about, not implying I knew the answer. I too would doubt Isreal. But Isreal and the USA are buddies in this conflict, and I would not be surprised to find the USA deeply involved in the plans to rebuild and"promote democracy". This should be a concern, seeing how well they are managing that in Iraq.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: andrealee


Isreal is attacking the wrong people. I could understand attacking the terrorists that bombed you with a huge amount of force, and maybe even approve of such action.If you knew you could effectively do so. But to bomb so indiscriminately a whole nation, is inexcuseable.

To say that they have trouble finding the leaders of the terrorist groups, and that the terrorists hide amongst civilians, may be true, but in no way justifies just killing a bunch of innocents that just happen to be nearby and may or may not have any influence at all over the situation. You cant get your attacker, so you take out their neighbor> What?! Ridiculous.




Andrealee, what you are saying is completely untrue.

Here is the actual situation. The guerillas/terrorists HIDE IN CIVILIAN HOMES. This is a very cowardly and underhanded tactic because it gives the enemy a choice between hitting civilian targets or not fighting at all and letting the guerillas/terrorists continue to attack.

Israel's solution was to drop leaflets all over Southern Lebanon instructing residents to evacuate. This is the most humane and best option that they had available.

The IDF on the other hand, does not hide in civilian homes.

The attitude I see here is one that this is some sort of unilateral action on the part of Israel to wantonly destroy Lebanese civilian targets. It isn't. I'll remind everyone here that the first shots in this particular skirmish came from Lebanon. Anyone attacking Israel has 60 years of experience to warn them that Israel will respond to such an attack with an iron fist.

Hezbollah is playing the "pity" game and you are all falling for it, hook, line, and sinker.

Remember, the vast majority of people on this board are Christians by Hezbollah's estimation, regardless of whether you consider yourself to be or not, and they want you just as dead as they want me.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Mike, what I said was in no way untrue. I did acknowledge that terrorists may hide in civilian homes. What I said is it is not acceptable to therefore bomb all civilians homes with indiscrimination,whether offering warning or not. All Lebanese are not Hezbolla.I dont think I would be any more understanding of someone bombing my home on the suspician that a terrorist may possibily be there, even after being given warning to get out.



To present only two options, hitting civilian targets because they are sometimes used to hide terrorists- or doing nothing at all and allowing terrorist attacks to continue , offers a falsely simplistic choice , one used to justify an inhumane action. There are other possibilities.Yes, they would just be a lot more difficult and less immediately satisfying. Fight the terrorists. But find a means to do it that actually targets them. If they are hiding, find them, then kill them.



If the Isrealis intelligencia and military can not find the leaders of Hezbolla to target them , how are the Lebanese people to do so? Especially while being bombed?



Broadly spread terror - the bombing of a nation- will just breed more terror, and more terrorists.



Hezbolla and other terrorist organizations do not have my sympathy or pity . Innocent civilians do.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Mike, I think we're all clear that Hezbollah and other terrorist groups would be happy to kill us all, that they are messed up, cruel and violent; and that they hide amongst civilians and do not care about civilians dying.

We're all clear on that and agree with you that it's true.

However, you go on to say that that justifies Israel killing civilians, families, women and children (many of them innocent)- that's what we disagree with.

Most of us are, like you, happy for Israel to defend herself- we just feel that for defence to turn into revenge and bring about the deaths of large numbers of innocents; is a step too far.

If the terrorists were hiding in civilian homes in the UK, would that justify Israeli attacks on UK civilian towns?!?

Lastly, concerning the 'who hit first' point that seems to be recurring every few posts- in this issue the concept of who struck first is totally meaningless- atrocities have been committed on both sides for decades, often on groups that were not reponsible for whatever slight the attack is supposedly a response to.

On the news tonight was footage of a red cross crew who'd fallen foul of an Israeli attack- innocent casualities are inevitable in a conflict- it's the degree of innocent casualities that's the issue- Israel simply does not care how many innocents perish, as long as they're taking out some terrorists.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lightning, you missed the point. It is and always has been a religious war. When Ariel Sharon's visited Temple Mount controversial September 28, 2000, he started the Second Intifada.



If Hezbollah is playing the "pity" game and you are all falling for it, hook, line, and sinker, what game are you playing???.


EDITED_BY: Stone (1153777358)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Stone


Lightning, you missed the point. It is and always has been a religious war. When Ariel Sharon's visited Temple Mount controversial September 28, 2000, he started the Second Intifada.

If Hezbollah is playing the "pity" game and you are all falling for it, hook, line, and sinker, what game are you playing???.




First of all, Ariel Sharon is an evil [censored]. He made Bush look like a pussycat.

Second: Never get confused for a moment. If Islam and Judaism evaporated tomorrow, the war would continue. Religion might be used to justify the war, but the war has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with culture.

People blame religion for a lot of things, and although it's a convenient justification for many of the world's evils, in non-religious societies, like communist China, those same evils thrive just the same.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Pity game? Quite possibly, I do pity the innocents who get mixed up in that, on both sides.

And while I realise Hezbollah wants innocents dead, they've abducted two soldiers to start this thing. Not completely destroyed Jerusalem's infrastructure.

As for the "Hezbollah wants to kill Christians, too", well at the moment the country that's killing Christian civilians is again Israel. And by the way, it sounds a bit too much like Bush's scaremongering to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the Lebanese have a large Christian population of more than 40 %. I've never heard of Hezbollah attacks on them though. As far as I'm informed (but again correct me if I'm wrong), by participating in the Muslim-Christian government Hezbollah have at least temporarily given their priority to fighting Israel, as opposed to fighting all other religions.

(not saying that's a good thing or justifies anything they do mind you, just that their priorities are clearly somewhere else)

Oh, and just for those who didn't know, what the Hezbollah SAY they want is to get this "back" for Lebanon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lightning, of course its a religious war, how could it not be. Hezbollah means Party of God. You keep denying this, like you keep denying Israel has anything to do with this conflict. You dont seem to realise Israels actions have caused these terrorist parties into existence. What other reason do you give for Hezbollah wanting the total destruction of Israel? As well as wanting to liberate the Shebaa Farms area, they want to establish Islamic rule over Jerusalem.

Birgit, given the background of the middle-east, the abduction of two soldiers was little more than an excuse Israel gave to start this war, and to pull out of peace negotiations with Hamas.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Stone


You keep denying this, like you keep denying Israel has anything to do with this conflict.



Please show me (quotes please) where I denied that Israel had anything to do with this conflict.

Did Israel fire the first shot in this skirmish? No. In fact, the first action was a Hezbollah raid.

Is Israel's response a bit out of proportion? Yes. That said, if I were one of those two soldiers (and I'd wager they're dead by now) I'd want to know that my country was doing everything possible to get me back.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:???!!!! How does bombing Lebanon increase the odds of the two soldiers being safely returned? Particularly if Isreal actually is bombing the Hezbolla terrorist bases? Would that not be more likely to ensure that the soldiers in question end up very, very dead? If I was kidnapped, I would prefer my country to *not* bomb the places where I might be held...

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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GitasGuy


GitasGuy

Pooh-Bah
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 2303
Posted:Well said andrealee!!!!

:admires giant wooden aeroplane: Its about time trees were good for something, instead of just standing their like jerks!!! ubblol ubbtickled

Homer rocks!!!! ubblol ubbrollsmile

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sagetree
GOLD Member since May 2006

sagetree

organic creation
Location: earth, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 246
Posted: Written by: doc lightning

Here is the actual situation. The guerillas/terrorists HIDE IN CIVILIAN HOMES. This is a very cowardly and underhanded tactic because it gives the enemy a choice between hitting civilian targets or not fighting at all and letting the guerillas/terrorists continue to attack.

 Written by: andrealee

To present only two options, hitting civilian targets because they are sometimes used to hide terrorists- or doing nothing at all and allowing terrorist attacks to continue , offers a falsely simplistic choice , one used to justify an inhumane action. There are other possibilities.Yes, they would just be a lot more difficult and less immediately satisfying. Fight the terrorists. But find a means to do it that actually targets them. If they are hiding, find them, then kill them.





thank you andrealee

doc, do you have a response to this? killing civilians is NOT the only way to fight terrorism. it's actually a way to join the ranks of a terrorist and to continue the cycle that leads to more terrorism in the future.


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted: Written by: Stone


Birgit, given the background of the middle-east, the abduction of two soldiers was little more than an excuse Israel gave to start this war, and to pull out of peace negotiations with Hamas.



Well aware of that... should've used different words I guess, I didn't mean they abducted the soldiers with the aim to start a war. Though to be fair they probably knew that the war might be a possible reaction and didn't care all that much about the civilians either.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:So I avoided this thread for a while and will probably still avoid most of the crux of the arguement.

I CAN say that it's VERY interesting looking at the differences between the news coverages (US vs. UK) and the opinions of those in each country.

Mike, you might find it interesting to know that the news coverage out here (UK) is GROSSLY anti-israeli. One of the news casters even said something like "Hezbolla rockets keep raining down on Israel as Israeli artillary shoots back over the border. Both sides seem equally guilty of trying to kill as many civilians as possible." The evening news is constantly showing a flow of dead lebanese civilians and emphasising that there are so many less dead in Israel and not showing them as graphically. There's absolutely NO mention of the fact that Hezbolla is AIMING at civilian targets and Israel is ONLY targeting areas where Hezbolla activity is alleged to be.

I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong. I'm just saying that Israel does have an arguement for what it's doing and that arguement is not being portrayed neutrally by the UK news. I'm sure it's just the opposite in the US.

Who watches the watchmen?

OK, carry on argueing the opinion that your individual "news" agencies are spoon feeding you. tongue

[And Mike, you know if Israel just compromised a little bit by killing all the jews then I'm sure the terrorists would be a bit more reasonable. wink wink wink ]


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: sagetree


doc, do you have a response to this? killing civilians is NOT the only way to fight terrorism. it's actually a way to join the ranks of a terrorist and to continue the cycle that leads to more terrorism in the future.



My response is how does one go in there and kill terrorists without breaking anything else when the terrorists use civilians as shields?

You keep saying "do it without killing civilians." But HOW?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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