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Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


_Poiboy_
_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel
Member Since: 12th Jan 2004
Total posts: 1113
Posted:i also think that israel should have been placed elsewhere, but those fuckin religion freaks are in control and they care more about their religion than they care about the jewish people.



and as much as we want peace with all the terrorist organizations, these guys have said many times that they want to wipe israel off the map.



religion is one of the main reason that israel is a warzone, everyone wants israel because it is the "holy land". i personally dont care about this bullshit, nothing religion tells you is worth people getting killed.

also i saw some woman from lebanon on TV that no one's blood should be spilled, not israeli people and not lebanese people, and that those guys should solve their problems by themselves and not by bombing entire countries.

i completely agree with what she said, and they really should just stop this fighting because nobody wants this other than the leaders and some religious freaks.



Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Patriarch917, this conflict will not end until Israel has accepted responsibility for its role in this conflict, and stops blaming other people.



The formation of political parties like Hamas, is a direct result of how Israel has treated its neighbours. Yes, Israel could stop this conflict by being generous, as because more fighting will only lead to more fighting which is just the past being played over and over again. So, how about turning the other cheek and dropping this eye for eye thing.

EDITED_BY: Stone (1153363337)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:So you probably think that instead of forming organizations like Hamas as a result of how Israel was behaving, they should have turned the other cheek?

I won't disagree with that. I think it's a fine solution.

I'm not sure what you mean, though, when you ask for Israel to be generous. Do you really think that if Israel gives money to Hamas in response to the rocket attacks, that Hamas would stop attacking? I suspect that Hamas would simply use the money to purchase more rockets.

Even if we did remove all the Jews and turned control of Israel over to Muslims, this would not bring peace to that area. I bet they would fight among themselves, just like Iraq.



Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:By generous, I mean stand down, stop killing people and start to negotiate a peace.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:Stone, it's been done. About six or seven times. I'll say it again. IT NEVER WORKED AND WILL NEVER WORK.

Separate the two sides like the quarreling children they are and then start again in about 40 years when everyone has forgotten what all the fuss was about.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: dream



The number of Palestinian refugees was 711,000 (U.N. General Assembly Official Records, 5th Session, Supplement No. 18, Document A/1367/Rev. 1)







Thanks Dream, I accept my mistake. However morally or logistically I think displacing 711,000 people from their homes is no different to displacing two million. It is wrong, and to expect to live in peace after destroying so many lives is laughable.



Also, when you talk of the Palestinians who chose to neither fight nor flee in 1948, you seem to assume that all Palestinians could have stayed if they'd wanted to. Somehow I don't think the 711,000 people who left their land and homes and became refugees did so of their own free will! That's like saying that when a dam is built and villages are inundated, people could stay if they wanted to. When they leave, they're doing so because they choose to.


EDITED_BY: Yell fire! (1153388832)



Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: FireTom


Is Jerusalem really the "holy land" for Muslims? I don"t think so! It's the THIRD most important city AFTER Mekka and Medina...



Fire Tom, the issue is not about FIRST, SECOND or THIRD, as you put it. The issue is that just because a city is of religious importance to you, that does not give you the right to invade and occupy it and force people who were already living there to move out!? By your logic, what the US is doing in Iraq is justifiable. Iraqi oil is more important for the US than it is for Iraq, therefore the US has a right to invade and occupy the country and take control of the oil!



dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by:

Separate the two sides like the quarreling children they are and then start again in about 40 years when everyone has forgotten what all the fuss was about.




The characterization of the conflict as a religious war between two distinct sides - jews and muslims/arabs helps perpetuate the conflict.

Within Israel there are jews and arabs, hawks and doves, people deicated to a brand of religious extremism and the settler movement and people dedicated to peace and reform. Unfortunately since the faliure of Barak to secure a peace at Camp David despite the offer of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem as a Palestinian State, and the outbreak of the second Infitada shortly after the peace movement has seen support dwindle as many moderate Israelis feel they haven't got a political partner to negociate a meaningful peace with. Certainly Hamas - who as Pat. pointed out are still committed to the destruction of Israel do not fall into this category.

Within the occupied territories there is Hamas, Fatah and several smaller liberal factions who campaign for a lasting and meaningful peace. For my thoughts on Hamas winning the Palestinian elections see http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...rev=#Post586879
br>With all due repect to those who have defended the Palestinians right to choose whoever they want as their leaders - the Germans did a similar thing in the 1930's - they democratically elected a government with an aggressive foreign policy with catastrophic rammifications for the entire region. While it is the Palestinians democratic right to elect a government which seeks the destruction of its neighbours they cannot do so and expect it to bring about peace and prosperity. Which makes the plight of the Palestinian people a really difficult issue. It was starting to appear as though the political wing of Hamas was about to start making concessions towards Israel so as to allow the resumption of US and EU aid without which Palestinian officials have had to feaquently work without pay - further deepening the enduring economic misery of the Palestinian people. The response of their military wing was to engage in violence so as to provoke Israeli retaliation towards Hamas as a political entity and thus scupper any chance of political progress and guarentee that the Palestinian peoples suffering has grown worse still.

Within Lebanon there is Hizbollah (Islamic Jihadis), moderate Muslims, Druze Arabs, Maronite Christians and large immigrant communities (many of whom are currently being evacuated). The actions of Hizbollah - which are most likely designed to deflect attention from Irans nuclear ambitions (the UN security council were scheduled to meet about two days after the conflict began to discuss the strenghthening of economic sanctions against Iran - this has now fallen off the international agenda until the Lebanese conflict is resolved - bear in mind here that Hizbollah are armed and finance by Iran and Syria - the rockets they are firing aren't Lebanese) are massively detrimental to the rest of the Lebanese population who seek no war with anyone. Remember - while the last war with Isreal cost about 20,000 lebanese lives the Lebanese civil war cost about 150,000. Hizbollah - like the Israeli army appear to have no regard for the suffering of the Lebanese people. In fact it may well be that they hope that this suffering creates a surge in anti-Iraeli sentiment which acts as an effective Hizbollah recruitment drive. It may be worth pointing out that there is a UN security Council resolution from 2004 calling for the disbanding and disarmament of Hizbollah in Southern Lebanon - however the Lebanese government (which has only really been independent from Syrian control for a year and half) is too weak to do so - fighting Hizbollah (Muslims) risks reigniting the civil war which destroyed most of what the Israelis left.


To homongenize these disparate groups of people so as to posit the conflict as two opposing sides locked in an eternal holy war (or the US/West and Isreal against the East/Oil Producing nations of the Middle East)ignores the multi-polar reality of the situation, and more importantly blinds people from the possiblility of meaningful engagement and suport of the moderates on every side of the conflict who seek a meaningful resolution to end the suffering of people all over the Middle East.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche


Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:Since everyone seems to keep bringing up the 2004 UN resolution requiring Hezbollah to disarm and disband, here's a list of other UN resolutions that are relevant to the region:

1955-1992:
* Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
* Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
* Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
* Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
* Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
* Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
* Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
* Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
* Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
* Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
* Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
* Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
* Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
* Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
*Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
* Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
* Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
* Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
* Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
* Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
* Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
* Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
* Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious
obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
* Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
* Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
* Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member
states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
* Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
* Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the
council's order not to deport Palestinians".
* Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide
by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
* Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its
claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".
* Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported
Palestinian mayors".
* Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's
nuclear facility".
* Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan
Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".
* Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
* Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
* Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
* Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and
allow food supplies to be brought in".
* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions
and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
* Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
* Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia
in attack on PLO headquarters.
* Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw
its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
* Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students
at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
* Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices
denying the human rights of Palestinians.
* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly
requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
* Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
* Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
* Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians
at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
* Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United
Nations.
* Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of
Palestinians.
* Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and
calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
* Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians
and calls for their immediate return.



dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:Yellfire...



I find it most peculiar that your list of UN resolutions relevant to the Middle East fails to include UN general Assembly resoultion 181 from November 29th 1947 which presented the internationally agreed plan to divide what is now Irael into a mainly-Jewish state and a mainly-Arab state with Jerusalem as a shared-rule international city.



The resoultion was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs who instead sought to fight a civil war - seeking sole rule of the area - which they duly lost. Had the Arabs accepted 181 there could have been two peaceful states where Israel currently sits.



 Written by: Yell Fire





Also, when you talk of the Palestinians who chose to neither fight nor flee in 1948, you seem to assume that all Palestinians could have stayed if they'd wanted to. Somehow I don't think the 711,000 people who left their land and homes and became refugees did so of their own free will!





not at all... i was simply pointing out that the oft heard claim that Jews ethnically cleasnsed Palestine of millions of Arabs in 1948 is untrue - and that as there are still over a million Arabs who live in Israel and fight in the Israeli army you cannot simply classify the conflict as jews and arabs.



of the 711,000 refugees many fled their homes because there was a war going on and they had no desire to be shot at. This seems to be fairly reasonable. Its why tens of thousands are currently fleeing Lebanon. Many also left because the forces commanded by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (who was hugely unpopular with the British occupiers of Palestine due to his alleigence to the Nazis during WW2 - and who had also tried to ban Jewish immigration to Israel - seeking a racially pure Muslim state) said that once the war was one people could return to their homes, and partially out of fear that Palestinian ethnic cleansing of Jewish communes such as Guch Etzion (May 1948) where about 150 civillians were executed... indeed there were isolated incidents where this was the case such as Safsaf (October 1948 - 56 soldiers excecuted after surrendering).



Indeed the sites of these historical massacres - such as the massacre of the Jews of Hebron in 1929 (which had previously seen a jewish population peacefully coexist within an Arab town for centuries) are seen as of significant cultural importance for the uber right wing jewish settler movement - in no way does this excuse their mentalist philosphy - but it can can help people understand why they act the way they do.



Equally rarely mentioned are Jewish refugees from newly nationalised Arabic states across the Middle East who fled torture and oppression - they too did not leave of their own free will. In the late 1940's and early 1950's these numbered about 500,000 - among them were my mothers parents who aged 14 and 15 had to walk from Basra to Tel Aviv - they were allowed to take only what they could carry on their near 10,000 mile hike.



Painting one (either Isreali or Palestinian/Arab) group of homogenized people as evil and oppressive while the others become poor tortured victims who have done nothing wrong blatantly ignores the history of the region and does nothing to work with the groups on both sides who still seek a fair resolution to the conflict and an end to violence in the region.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Interesting insights. I don't know why I even bother with the media when i can get all the relevant information on an issue here on HOP smile


Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: FireTom


... by the way: Israel means "may god reign"... but I tell ya (again) he must be a pretty screwed MF, if this is his idea of a "reign"...




Hmmm. All the sources I can find indicate that Israel means "struggles with God." This would seem to be an excelent name for them. They have always stuggled with God.

Do you think "Islam" is a misnomer?



Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Doc, dont give up. Separating them is not the solution, whats really missing is a commitment to growing up and becoming adults.


cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted: Written by: Stone


Doc, dont give up. Separating them is not the solution, whats really missing is a commitment to growing up and becoming adults.


cheers smile



Stone, again, we've done "commitent," "peace," "talks," "getting over differences," and whatever else you want to call it.

First, who exactly are we talking with? The leaders of what? The problem with terrorism is that very few terrorist groups have a single, unified leader. The IRA was the closest thing to a truly centralized terrorist organization and even THEY couldn't completely stop operations after the peace came and a group called the "Real IRA" came in and is still blowing stuff up. A terrorist group is not the same as an organized national military like the IDF that follows orders and has a centralized, formal command structure.

Second, anyone who is willing to strap bombs to themselves and kill innocent children in a pizza parlor is NOT A REASONABLE PERSON. You can't "talk" with them. They aren't interested in that. They want to kill.

Third, it is not in the nature of human beings to "put aside their differences" unless a significant outside force forces an alliance against that force. The Arabs, among other cultures, have a saying that "My enemy's enemy is my friend."

This business of "growing up" is all well and good in theory, but too many people have died.

My point is STOP THE KILLING BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, EVEN IF THE MEANS THEMSELVES AREN'T VERY PLEASANT. Wall off the entire damned country of Israel if necessary. Just STOP THE KILLING.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:I've done a little more digging on the name "Israel." As with many Hebrew words, it can mean lots of things depending on the context (kind of like "ruach"). It's been very interesting.

I have usually heard the definition of the word mentioned in the context of the account of when Jacob was first named Israel. If you have read it, you know that Jacob had wrestled with God all night. Afterwards, God gave him the name "Israel" saying:

"Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for like a prince you have power with God and with men, and have prevailed."

As you found on the dictionary website, it can apparently mean both "God has striven" and "God has saved." I had often heard it defined as striving (or wrestling) with God, but did not know that it could also mean something along the lines of "saved by God."

Here is a baby name site the gives the definition I mentioned:

http://www.babynames.com/Names/name_display.php?n=Israel
br>
The definition from godonthe.net, "Who prevails with God" seems also to draw the meaning from the scripture itself (where Jacob prevailed in his wrestling match with God

Strangely, I cannot seem to find much serious scholarly analysis of the word at all. Or, rather, Google cannot find any for me. smile

I did what I could myself with Strong's. Obviously, the "El" on the end refers to God. The middle of the word comes from a root word that sounds like "saw-raw" and means something like "prevailing with princely power." I guess the idea behind defining it as "wrestled with God" was because Jacob prevailed in this instance through wrestling.

I wish especially that I could find something explaining the connection with salvation. Glancing at the Hebrew words related to the idea of salvation indicates that it is indeed connected ( words like "Yeshua" bear a resemblance to "Yisrael"). If this is correct, then a Hebrew reader would perhaps see the name of Israel as indicating a connection between salvation, God, and a Prince who prevails.

If anyone happens to have come across anything on this subject, please PM me.

Enough with this. I'll try not to get distracted from the topic anymore.

I think a good way to solve this conflict is for everyone to withdraw and let Israel extend to the borders established by King David. All the Palestinians who don't want to participate in the Israeli government (there are many, there's a good chunk of Muslims in the Israeli parliament) can move to Mexico. We'll then let a bunch of Mexicans come to the U.S. to make room for the Palestinians.

Oh look! My plan is working already. And as a bonus, America's second language will have simplified spelling.

Armchair geopolitics is so fun.



Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok Lightning, what Im hearing is that you are NOT committed to peace. So whats in continuing this war for you? What are the Israeli's getting out of it that makes them want to continue fighting?



You are right when you say it is not in the nature of human beings to put aside their differences", but using significant forces is not a solution either. You said the solution - Israel should stop killing people.







Why do I think everyone in this conflict is acting like children? Well, I saw a video of President Clinton trying to negotiation a peaceful settlement with Barak and Arafat, a few years back. All I can say is Clinton did a great job, with a bunch of spoiled brats that were fighting over toys. Then that pig Sharon, stepped in and the rest is history. .









shrug

EDITED_BY: Stone (1153451075)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted: Written by: Stone



Ok Lightning, what Im hearing is that you are NOT committed to peace.





I *AM* committed to peace. That's why I want a wall up. That's the only thing that's going to work, because we've talked to death.



Look, you have people crossing your border EVERY day aiming at civilian targets. They're blowing up buses, pizza parlors, schools, ice cream shops, random garbage cans, you name it, nothing's safe. Israelis live their lives knowing that they could be blown to smithereens by a terrorist bomb any second.



And you say that the onus is solely on Israel to stop killing? I think that's a bit unfair.



Yes, I want peace. I want it so badly that I'm willing to settle for a non-ideal solution to get it. Let the Palestinians have their terroritory. Build a wall. The problems on one side of the wall stay there. The problems on the other side of the wall stay there.



Asking Israel to stop shooting makes exactly as much sense as asking Hamas to stop shooting. It won't happen and it can't happen. So enough of this hippie-armchair BS and let's do something that will ACTUALLY work.



As for talking, some highlights from the Charter of Hamas:



 Written by:



"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."



"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "



"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."



"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."







Now...who exactly is Israel going to talk with?

EDITED_BY: Doc Lightning (1153454239)


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lightning, Im a bit confused because on one hand yo say you want peace, while on the other you say It won't happen and it can't happen.

The Berlin wall has just come down and you want to erect another wall. Do you really think the problems on the other side of the wall stay there? Yeah, right. How long do you think it would be before someone blows up that wall or something? No, a wall is not a solution, its just another way to avoid taking responsibility.

You may have talked a lot about peace, but you havent taken any ownership as a nation as the cause of all this blood shed; all you do is blame other people. Perhaps you have to give something up; too bad if its unfair.

Saying Now...who exactly is Israel going to talk with? is just another excuse; you are not really committed to peace. If Israel really did want peace then the world wouldnt look like it is at the momen


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Even if we put Palestine/Hamas aside for a minute, what's happening in Lebanon doesn't exactly look like wanting peace. And saying "most civilians in Lebanon have rockets under their beds" as an excuse for a bit of collateral damage doesn't impress me all that much either.



By the way, Israel, Palestine (and probably the rest of the Arab world, too, though I've not spent much time talking with the Lebanese) aren't exactly renowned for "forgetting" something after 40 years. My guess would be that the day the wall was broken down to start peaceful coexistence a few old idiots from both sides would start running at each other (or passing stupid laws in their respective parliaments) and start the whole thing over.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted: Written by: Stone


Lightning, Im a bit confused because on one hand yo say you want peace, while on the other you say It won't happen and it can't happen.

Saying Now...who exactly is Israel going to talk with? is just another excuse; you are not really committed to peace. If Israel really did want peace then the world wouldnt look like it is at the momen



So let me sum up your argument: "It's all Israel's fault." "I'm going to ignore the fact that Hamas is killing people, too." "I'm going to ignore the fact that Hamas has openly said that they are not interested in talking and that they are committed to the destruction of Israel at all cost." "Israel is not committed to peace because it's all Israel's fault."

I'm sorry, but I don't think I can have this conversation with you because you aren't making any sense. I've thrown three arguments at you.

1) Israel is not the solely culpable party here.

2) Hamas is not interested in talking.

3) A wall will bring peace. Not an idyllic, easy peace, but at least it will stop the killing.

You have yet to answer one point.

Now, answer one point. Go on. I'd enjoy it.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted: Written by: FireTom


PS: I take back the "MF" - haven't met this guy, yet.




Actually I can argue that if you take Jesus and The Trinity into account, but this is about Israel so it doesn't work anymore.


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning to Stone


..............
I'm sorry, but I don't think I can have this conversation with you because you aren't making any sense. I've thrown three arguments at you.

1) Israel is not the solely culpable party here.





It's worth rementioning that, of course, Israel is not the sole agressor here- I don't think the majority of those questioning Israels approach are under any delusions about the terrorists and the effects of their attacks.

But, the fact is that Israel is killing people who are innocent of any crime, including women and children.

Of course, so are the terrorists, but-

1. That's what terrorists do and it's one of the reasons they are branded as 'terrorists'- Israel, supposedly, is not a terrorist group?

2. Killing innocent women and children (as a by-product of attempting to kill the guilty) may, if it actually resulted in a good outcome (less terrorists/violence) could, arguably, be justified. However, it won't stop the terrorists or the violence- in the long view it will most likely simply increase it.

Terrorists who bomb pubs, shopping centres, fly planes into the twin towers, who are willing to die in order to kill their 'enemy' (including children) are sick and twisted individuals- supported by funds from those who see the cause as a justified one.

The reason there are so many disfunctional twisted operatives and a network who supports them, is, in large part, fueled by the displacement, torture and killing of communities and familes that was part of the establishment and support of an Isreali state in the middle east (and America is a target because it is seen as supporting and making possible, an Israeli state, by supplying it with large amounts of advanced weaponry).

Unfairness, on any level, is the best way to create resentment- when that unfairness involves the death of family/community members who were innocent, hatred and the wish to hit back, will surely follow.

Of course, the establishment of Israel in the middle east and the injusticies it entailed, are in the past and can't be reveresed.

However, surely acknowledgement of the wrong is going to be more useful that the current blinkered denial,

and

given that the killing of innocents was the very cause of the current terrorist situation, surely it is time to cease the killing of innocents- especially when doing so helps nothing and generally simply makes the problem worse.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:So...

Does anyone here actually have a PRACTICAL solution to the PROBLEM AT HAND other than a wall?

Again: we've done "talks" and "diplomacy" and what-not up the wazoo.

Unilateral disarmament is also not an option. Israel isn't "backing down."

Now let's remember what a "solution" entails. It means 1) Israel no longer needs to attack Hamas or Fatah or Hezbollah. 2) Hezbollah/Hamas/whomever no longer attacks Israel.

Really, I can't think of anything other than a wall. And an agreement that if you fire a missile/bomb over the wall, then prepare to get walked all over.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:lmao... Doc, that's a bit silly now.

I mean, you've just spent a great deal of time pointing out that agreements don't help, and then you suggest building a wall and whoever fires OVER it breaks an agreement?

That's like the agreement without the wall but more expensive.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:See, Birgit, there's a difference. Walls keep terrorists with bombs strapped to them from wandering into Israel.

And THAT is the big problem. Israel seldom hits first. They just hit back a lot harder than they get hit.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Colin J
Colin J

small member
Location: Hastings
Member Since: 24th May 2005
Total posts: 116
Posted:walls don't stop terorist attacks.

Nope, thats it. I have nothing helpful at all to forward as a solution to violent thought and vengeful actions. I fear it may actualy be part of human nature itself. ingrained upon the current collective conciousness. Luckly there is always hope. As we are a very adaptive species. We might actually get used to getting along smile



onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning




So...

Does anyone here actually have a PRACTICAL solution to the PROBLEM AT HAND other than a wall?

Again: we've done "talks" and "diplomacy" and what-not up the wazoo.

Unilateral disarmament is also not an option. Israel isn't "backing down."

Now let's remember what a "solution" entails. It means 1) Israel no longer needs to attack Hamas or Fatah or Hezbollah. 2) Hezbollah/Hamas/whomever no longer attacks Israel.

Really, I can't think of anything other than a wall. And an agreement that if you fire a missile/bomb over the wall, then prepare to get walked all over.





I can't comment on the wall as I've no idea what the practicalities would be or if/how it would work.

Where talks and diplomacy are concerned, the fact that they haven't worked yet is no reason to give up on them.

In the UK we had multiple refusals to talk with the IRA terrorists and multiple 'failures' of talks; problems involving terrorists are not easy or quick to resolve.

Now, however, the situation is resolved and we no longer have Irish terrorist bombings and killings.

Similarly, the solution in Israel is not going to go away in the near future- when it does, communication, talks and diplomacy will be a prime part of it.

Till then, we've been suggesting ways to get closer to that position and these include-

1. acknowledging the wrongs done against the palestinians in the past- basically because it's the truth and, when coming to solutions, it's best to acknowledge the truth rather than deny/sweep it under the carpet.

In the UK, while the actual govt wasn't particularly good at facing up to the wrongs, the media were and, for example, we had docu-dramas covering Irish perspectives on (then, recent) massacres by British soldiers on the Irish population.

2. cut down on feeding the violence- you say Israel doesn't atack first, 'They just hit back a lot harder than they get hit'- that includes killing innocent women and children: and that is the best way to perpetuate the hatred for ever.

It does not bring back Israeli victims and it does not stop or reduce future violence- it makes it worse.

It's not 'defence' because it does not reduce future violence- it's revenge.

Revenge is understandable, but it's not justifiable.

Lastly, I don't know what the sate of US media coverage is these days, but, certainly last year it was highly biased, showing only/mainly Israeli losses. UK coverage is a lot more balanced and so we get to see the victims of the Israeli attacks and get to hear their perspectives.

It seems to me that truthful coverage is important in these situations, especially where Americans are financing the Israeli attacks.

Going back to the IRA, I can't comment on how true this is, but, as well as the peace talks, some say that the final nail in the coffin for the terrorists was 9/11, when the Americans who had been financing the Irish got a taste of what terrorism is really about and ceased to send money.

If Americans are going to support causes, whether Israeli or Irish, they need to know what they're supporting and what is really happening and they don't seem to be getting the facts from either their governments, or the media.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Dave beat me to the response.



But you know, Israel don't really HAVE to hit first, cause they've got the slight advantage of having THEIR settlers in the West Bank and a lot of Palestinians locked up behind walls already. As long as that situation continues children will be raised hating Israel and continue raising their children in the same way.



I don't justify Palestinian violence. But why do Israel have to strike back harder?

Just because they can? That's children's play, but it's getting people killed.

Because they think they have the right to? Who would give that right? Even if you follow an eye for an eye, how on earth do 2 captured soldiers justify a war! And why do the States still deliver weapons for this revenge?



Here, look at a few pictures frown How is THIS better than a suicide bomb in a pizza parlour?



http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,PB64-SUQ9MTUxNzQmbnI9MQ_3_3,00.html
br>


Edit: found an article on the whole middle east situation that I'd like to share, including a few paragraphs on diplomacy.



 Written by:





The Bush administration has done no better on the Palestinian-Israeli front. Preoccupied with Iraq, Washington has effectively disengaged from the peace process. The Bush team not only abandoned Bill Clinton's diplomatic efforts, but also derided them as nave and ineffectual. But for all its faults, Clinton's diplomacy sustained a process of reconciliation that kept an uneasy peace. Since the inception of Israel in 1948, every decade has been plagued by an Arab-Israeli war - except the 1990s.









http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,427635,00.html

EDITED_BY: Birgit (1153577550)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


Where talks and diplomacy are concerned, the fact that they haven't worked yet is no reason to give up on them.

In the UK we had multiple refusals to talk with the IRA terrorists and multiple 'failures' of talks; problems involving terrorists are not easy or quick to resolve.



Hezbollah and Hamas are *NOT* the IRA. The IRA was/is a well-organized force with a centralized command structure. The Arab terrorist groups are decentralized and you can't negotiate with them because you can't find them.

Comparing this to the Irish/British situation is apples to oranges.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Nevertheless, communication with involved parties, will be part of any solution- vengeful violence won't, because it does not reduce attacks and it incites further violence.

The communication will not necessarily be the current key people in Hezbollah and Hamas, it will likely focus on those aiding them- a lot of funding/support is coming from people and communities who aren't active terrorists, but who support them, because they or their families have been victims of Israeli policies.

The IRA may have been much more centralised, but-

a. it wasn't 100% focused, there were arguing factions and splits into alternate groups

b. Talks were very difficult as the various governments refused to negotiate with terrorists

In spite of the immense difficulties, certain people and groups persisted and got a good outcome.

What the UK government did not do, was launch missile attacks on Irish civilian towns or blanket bomb Ireland- if they had done I think it's safe to say that the UK would still be subject to Irish terrorist attacks and that the ranks of the IRA and similar organisations would be swollen with new members who had seen totally innocent members of their families/communities killed.

So, Mike, here I'm not particularly arguing for attempts at talks (though I will maintain that, what you percieve as past failures in that direction, do not mean that communication is futile).

My focus is on the fact that Israeli revenge attacks that kill/maim innocents, are-

1. wrong
2. don't stop future violence
3. breeds terrorists, terrorist support and guarantees future violence and an escalation of that violence.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


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