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Forums > Social Discussion > Israel back at war (a rant)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:[rant]Now for many years I have opposed Israel for their politics in Palestine, Gaza and so on... These days it seems to be mainstream, especially since Israel is back at war with the nations around them, threatening the "rest of the world".



I certainly have a natural opposition towards people, who were suffering the holocaust and seem to put this fate on other, innocent people - it seems as if they have not learned from their own history.



But nope - not this time. I am sick and tired of news and stories about extremists and insurgents, kidnapping and killing other innocent people.



For quite some time, the Israeli govt has done efforts to come to peace with the troublemakers (yes, heck they are troublemakers themselves and yes "collateral damage" done by the Israeli military to innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza is hard to accept...) it just doesn't stop...



And now, I only have to imagine that it would have been the sister of my ex-girfriend to be one of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers - it would disturb me just as much as imagining that my arab cousin lives in Beirut...



I know that war (as violence) is never the way and retaliation is as wrong as attacking, but please tell me: If you're making efforts to live your life in peace and you find out that all compromises you make are answered with neglect (yes, the majority of arabs DO actually WANT PEACE finally and do NOT support the hizbullah - I acknowledge this fact) - bottom line is that there are some blinded people who never learn - how can this be ended? It's a merry go round...



It's not ironic that I am sitting in a hebrew internet cafe in Bangkok - it's almost hilarious! There are millions of young and old jews across the globe who would just LOVE to finally see peace in the middle east and I am sick and tired of reckless politicians who condemn a nation just because of their faith, they actually DO have a democracy and prosper AND that their small number of soldiers (with high tech) is able to keep the entire arab nations around them in check (and do not tell me that those nations would not have the funds to arm up with as much high tech)...



I am SICK of it! I want it to END, I want the killing to STOP NOW!!!!! Why does it seem further away than ever? Why is war the way?



Disclaimer: and pls note that I am not falling into the mainstream thinking that muslims are generally to be held responsible for extremism - it's individuals and their political interest, it's NEVER collective.[/rant]



sorry guys


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


The *ONLY* valid justification for violence, in my opinion, is defense.



So when Palestinians attack Israelis that is unjustifiable violence, but when Israelis attack Palestinians that is defense?

Please explain why fighting an occupying population cannot be regarded as defense, but fighting the occupied population to ensure that the occupying population can live in peace is justifiable defense.



simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:IMO Israel is perfectly justified in defending itself against attacks, but the number of civilian casualties it is causing in it's defense is not excusable.



 Written by: the BBC

Israel evacuated its settlements and military bases in Gaza last year, but the military renewed ground operations after militants captured an Israeli soldier in a border raid in June.



Since then, Israeli troops have killed about 400 Palestinians in Gaza, roughly half of them civilians. Three Israeli soldiers have died in operations and two civilians were killed by rocket fire.





So far that's been answered by Mike claiming that this loss of life is entirely unavoidable, and NYC stating that the IDF should be able to shoot them because they're unarmed combatants umm



That's why i'm so against Israel's methods of fighting terrorism. It's grossly disproportionate, and far too indiscriminate.



Incidentally the above quote is taken from today's report, which also mentions the only casualty, Muhammad Jarjawi. An Israeli army spokeswoman said troops had opened fire on a "suspicious person".


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."


Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


Seems to me England deserved the Tube by your reasoning.




Try traveling on the London tube on a hot summers day during rush hour after buying a 3 ticket, and you will realise that perhaps the tube itself is a form of punishment for Britain's colonial and present day sins!
smile



ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted: Written by: coleman



 Written by: ado-p



I thought that they were defending themselves?



Isnt that what you do when someone invades?





how does withdrawal from gaza represent an invasion - surely thats the the opposite of invasion...?



and how do you define the firing of rockets into civilian territory as 'defence'?





cole. x





Ireland wouldnt be free if it werent for terrorists (read: the people fighting the occupying force. i.e civilians.) I can and will hate terrorists. And I wont ever support voilence. It wont change the fact the terrorism was the only thing that had a strong enough impact to cause a withdrawl.



Israel withdrawing from gaza is one thing. Its not the only thing though.



and...



on the basis that I am not well informed enough to be able to agrue in a coherent fashion. Im going back to lurking.


Love is the law.


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Given that the "Palestinian dream of returning to Israel by the millions" is only a small part of what drives this conflict, and it's really about the Arab world's refusal to allow the existence of Israel as a state.

Now, Israel has a group like Peace Now.....Is there a similar peace movement in the Arab world who are critical of the Arab attitude that Israel doesn't have a right to exist ?



Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: coleman


how does withdrawal from gaza represent an invasion - surely thats the the opposite of invasion...?
cole. x



If someone invaded your house and then withdrew from one room, locking in you in that room while controlling every aspect of your life, would you stop fighting?



Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: stout


Now, Israel has a group like Peace Now.....Is there a similar peace movement in the Arab world who are critical of the Arab attitude that Israel doesn't have a right to exist ?



I mentioned this earlier during this discussion but that was a long time ago...

In 2002 Saudi Arabia proposed full recognition of Israel by ALL Arab states, if Israel returned to its 1967 borders. I guess Saudi Arabia's role in the Arab world is much more significant than Peace Now's role in Israel.

http://www.mideastweb.org/saudipeace.htm



coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!



If someone invaded your house and then withdrew from one room, locking in you in that room while controlling every aspect of your life, would you stop fighting?





i assume i'm supposed to have forgotten where the house came from (i.e. what happened back in 1948)?



and as my 'house' is supposedly gaza in this analogy of yours, care to remind me how the six-day war started and the reason my house was invaded in the first place?





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: coleman


i assume i'm supposed to have forgotten where the house came from (i.e. what happened back in 1948)?
and as my 'house' is supposedly gaza in this analogy of yours, care to remind me how the six-day war started and the reason my house was invaded in the first place?
cole. x



Er, not quite sure what you're getting at here.

If we go back to 1948, then your house would consist of the occupied territories plus all of Israel, which was colonised and then divided up, so that new people (i.e. Israelis) could move into most of it while you, the original occupier (i.e. Palestinians) got a couple of small rooms (West Bank and Gaza).

If we only go as far back as 1967 then the house consists of the West Bank and Gaza. Your house is invaded, occupiers move into the nicest rooms, beat the crap out of you for trying to resist, and then eventually move out of the smallest room (i.e., Gaza) so that the world can see what great, generous people they are.

I think we all know what happened in 1967. Sticking with the house analogy, if you and a few of your neigbours get together, behave like idiots and attack someone's house, that does NOT give them legal rights to your house under any court of law!!



coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:not sure what i'm getting at?
okay:

what specifically prompted the invasion of my house in 1967?


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!


Please explain why fighting an occupying population cannot be regarded as defense, but fighting the occupied population to ensure that the occupying population can live in peace is justifiable defense.



If you fail to acknowledge that Israel is a country than obviously you're going to differ with those that believe it is a country.

Can someone very specifically explain how Israel should defend itself giving every possible nuance and variation so that we can spend the next few pages picking that apart? Please include proof and irrefutable sources. (No internet links as they can be altered and subjective please.)

tongue


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:I think we should send someone in the UN and someone else in NATO a link to this thread...

Love is the law.


Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: coleman


what specifically prompted the invasion of my house in 1967?
cole. x



Perhaps some of the text doesn't show up on your screen? This is from my previous post:

"I think we all know what happened in 1967. Sticking with the house analogy, if you and a few of your neigbours get together, behave like idiots and attack someone's house, that does NOT give them legal rights to your house under any court of law!!"



NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I just got a nasty PM.



I'm done with this thread.



I didn't want to be here in the first place but boredom at work got the best of me.



People that I know and love disagree with me on this one and I wish I could discuss it further with them but this isn't the place.



[Edit: Molly patted me on the head and perhaps explained why I wasn't expressing myself well enough. I'll try to rephrase my arguement below so I don't look like I enjoy killing kids. wink ]


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:okay, thanks for that yellfire.



you therefore contend that israel's actions had nothing to do with the p.l.o. and their stated aim of the destruction of the state of israel?





i'm not arguing for or against israel's actions but your argument seems to amount to an oversimplification of the issue - hugely biased towards the palestinian view.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:[Just had a nice conversation with my girlie which I'll share for the benifit of those like Dave.]

I guess I failed to explain that I do not believe that Israel has the resources to fight the terrorists in any other way aside from this horribly ineffective, collateral damage producing manner which they are now.

Israel got it's butt kicked going into Lebanon. If they'd have had the resources to neutralize those fighting against them, they would have used it. I do not believe that Israeli special forces is able to combat fighters protected by 'innocents' voluntarily acting as human shilds.

I believe Israel is outclassed, out tacticed, and out diplomacized by those fighting against them. These are extremely effective fighters using extremely effective tactics leaving Israel's only option to either kill innocents or die.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Post deleted by stout


faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:isn't part of this whole thing about whose house it is, so then it makes sense that both are defending it

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: NYC

...leaving Israel's only option to either kill innocents or die.



I think the situation is being looked at incorrectly. The religious/racial/national angle is being over-hyped, and it is being assumed without evidence that Israeli military actions make Israel safer. I think that this attitude will ultimately result in Israels disintegration if it continues.



What we're missing is that the people who are fighting Israel aren't subhuman monsters, they are men like you and me who are angry and vengeful at what has been done to them and their own. They can function because they have popular support, because everyone who's ever been pushed around by the IDF or spat at by settlers will help them. What they are doing is wrong, but if we had lived their lives we may very well be doing the same.



Yes, there are fundamentalists, but they cannot function efficiently in the absence of popular support that Israeli military action creates, and without fresh outrages their recruitment drops.



But every time the Israeli army goes to war to "make Israel safe" they create more such people, placing Israel in an even more dangerous position.



Terrorism isn't an army, it's a disease, and trying to stop it with nothing but violence is roughly equivalent to curing a bruise by punching it.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!


 Written by: Doc Lightning


The *ONLY* valid justification for violence, in my opinion, is defense.



So when Palestinians attack Israelis that is unjustifiable violence, but when Israelis attack Palestinians that is defense?

Please explain why fighting an occupying population cannot be regarded as defense, but fighting the occupied population to ensure that the occupying population can live in peace is justifiable defense.



Simple. Israel wasn't shooting when the shooting started.

There are other ways to deal with an occupation (and not all sides view it as such...especially given the WITHDRAWAL) than shooting.

In EVERY single war that Israel has fought, they have not fired the first shot.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted: Written by: coleman


not sure what i'm getting at?
okay:

what specifically prompted the invasion of my house in 1967?




Yup. See, the thing about "selecting your facts to suit your point of view" is getting on my nerves, too.

Yellfire, now two people have asked this question.

Will you answer?

What prompted the Israeli invasion in 1967? Did Israel just invade one day because they thought it would be...fun?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


Simple. Israel wasn't shooting when the shooting started.




Simple is about right. That's a ridiculous oversimplification of a very complicated situation. It's the kind of statement one might expect from someone who thinks like George Bush. And to top it off, it's not even true!

Are you saying that every single time a Palestinian has been killed it's because the Palestinian shot first?? Like the family that was recently killed by Israeli shells? Give me a break.



Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


Yellfire, now two people have asked this question.
Will you answer?




Yes, I'll answer it for the twentieth, er sorry, third time:

"I think we all know what happened in 1967. Sticking with the house analogy, if you and a few of your neigbours get together, behave like idiots and attack someone's house, that does NOT give them legal rights to your house under any court of law!!"



jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Can we discuss the current situation rather than the 6-day war?

If you obsess on a war over 40 years in the past you'll never have peace today.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:first
jeff: the war has a religious aspect to it and cannot be ignored even though the current situations seems to be which side should move out
you are right though that we need to look back at past conflicts in order to resolve the current one. those who forget the past are destined to relive it and all that
yell fire: doc thinks like GBush ubblol no, sorry, so very not true. look at some of the other posts in other threads before you go and make a statement like that


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


jeff: the war has a religious aspect to it and cannot be ignored even though the current situations seems to be which side should move out


The religous aspect is a red herring. Hamas aren't attacking Israel and visa-versa because they're Muslims and Jews, they're attacking them because they are being attacked themselves. The cause is anger and stupidity. Both sides are ineptly attempting to retaliate against the other or make themselves safer.

What we have here isn't two groups of different religions, it's one big group of idiots who can't see past the ends of their noses.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Yell fire!



Yes, I'll answer it for the twentieth, er sorry, third time:



"I think we all know what happened in 1967. Sticking with the house analogy, if you and a few of your neigbours get together, behave like idiots and attack someone's house, that does NOT give them legal rights to your house under any court of law!!"





your house analogy is not a complete answer which is why people keep asking you the same question.



i'm sorry but your 'answer' it doesn't make any sense to me - since when does an invasion and occupation of territory during a war have anything to do with a court of law?!



and do you think the palestinians and their 'neighbours' would have let the isreali's have their 'house' back if they had managed to take it?



i asked you to comment on the possiblility that the p.l.o.'s existence had something to do with israel's military decisions (the p.l.o. was formed three years previous, with the stated aim of nothing less than 'the desrtuction of israel' - source: wikipedia) and you instead just repeat the same flawed analogy.



to quote you: you are making "a ridiculous oversimplification of a very complicated situation".





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Can we please stick to the current situation? It doesn't matter anymore whether the six-day war was morally justified or not, all that matters today is how people remember it.

What's important is what's happening today in the Palesteinian controlled territories, and I'm suggesting that much of what's happening (which is woefully under reported in the American news) isn't moraly justified.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:obviously you have not been paying attention. the reason why they fight is religious and territorial. they go together.
there is religious intolerance. there is the thought that their respective God gave them this land. there is propaganda that the other religion is the enemy and evil
these two groups have been fighting for years and the land conflict is just the latest


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:I disgree with your views on the ultimate causes of the conflict. Fundementalists may be motivated by such factors, but not the bulk of the population. I contest that the reason for the violence is anger at the other side, provoked by violent actions by said nation. Much like how in Ireland public support for the IRA resulted from negative actions by the British army.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


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