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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Having just got back from a pub where at least two thirds of the people there were smoking like chimneys, I'm really pissed off.
Not only are my eyes still stinging, but my throat is feeling really raw and my clothes, skin and hair stink of cigarettes.

What I'd really like to know is why? Why do people, knowing full well that it makes everything around them stink and that it's killing them slowly, still smoke?


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Mynci

Written by: onewheeldave

I think mynci, that you are misguided, but sincere. You come across as being quite young, and I suspect that you have yet to realise the extent of the misery that smoking causes.


ubblol
Dude, i'm nearly 30 and have watched 4 people in my family die of cancer (true not smoking related) I have a biology degree and know ALL the problems caused by smoking. But I am a smoker who likes to debate and because this is in chat and NOT discussions I'm trying not to stretch my brain.



Apologies mynci for misjudging your age.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Arty Farty
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

Arty Farty

I wear yellow on monday
Location: Farnham Ahoy, United Kingdom

Total posts: 551
Posted:This is a debate, or apparently 'chat' that is going nowhere (not even fast for that matter). There will always be smokers and there will always be non-smokers, all having different opinions on on smoking, both believing that they are correct. Therefore I am with-drawing myself from this thread. My brain cant hack the boring amount of repeated facts and opinions, and my blood pressure (not due to smoking either, thanks very much wink ) cant stand the anger that some of you have provoked within me.

Those that have never smoked cannot comment on how we got into smoking and why we still do it (seeing it as a weakness, 'an addiction'-everyone is addicted to something!) simply because you dont and have therefore never enjoyed it. Smoking is like drinking tea. You try it and dont really like it, but you have a cup anyway. Next time you like it that bit more, and before you know it your on 5cups a day.

Being a non-smoker previously I do understand that smoke sucks big time (i'll give you that one for free); and yes it must be completely hanus having to go to smoke filled clubs/pubs when you go out, and soon it will be the reverse for non-smokers due to the ban.

To me it sounds like you've all had bad experiences in the past and are grouping all smokers together into this one arrogant, cancer spreading clan, who enjoys nothing more than pissing non-smokers off. Thats how many of your posts seem to be coming across. At the end of the day we are just people who smoke, just as you are people who dont. And i know its a lot more complicated than that, and yes many of those reasons are in this thread.

What im saying is that we will never make each other see eye to eye, rendering this thread a battle ground. Im exiting now before i either get my head chopped off, or chop off someone elses.

Good day

*sternly graps hat from the rack and exists swiftly*


You'll find me on the dance floor

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Arty Farty




Those that have never smoked cannot comment on how we got into smoking and why we still do it (seeing it as a weakness, 'an addiction'-everyone is addicted to something!) simply because you dont and have therefore never enjoyed it. Smoking is like drinking tea. You try it and dont really like it, but you have a cup anyway. Next time you like it that bit more, and before you know it your on 5cups a day.







I'll point out that I have smoked- i was addicted for over ten years.



There's truth in what you say- though I think that those who have never smoked are perfectly entitled to have opinions based on the known medical facts of smoking, and on it's anti-social aspects etc- it is true that they can't really understand what it is to be a smoker.



By the same reasoning, it's also true that smokers, by necessity, also lack the understanding of what it is to be an ex-smoker. Many assume that being an ex-smoker is similar to their own situation prior to taking up smoking, or that it is similar to times when they have gone 6 months without smoking, believing that they had escaped the addiction, only to find themselves smoking again.



It isn't- an ex-smoker (one who has been addicted and is now free from it) has a perspective that the smoker doesn't- in particular they understand the nature of the compulsion/addiction that masquerades as 'enjoyment of a smoke' in a way that those smokers in the midst of their addiction cannot.







Written by: Arty Farty






Being a non-smoker previously I do understand that smoke sucks big time (i'll give you that one for free); and yes it must be completely hanus having to go to smoke filled clubs/pubs when you go out,





It's good that you have that perspective, and that you mention it here.



I'll point out that I have no problem whatsoever with smokers (unless they insist on perpetuating myths about smoking not being an addiction)- many of my friends smoke. I've spoken in depth with many of them, and I say what i believe- that whatever their view of their motivations is, in my opinion they smoke because they are addicts.



They don't get offended by that because I explain it well, and I believe that there is no shame in being an addict. In my experience, the majority of those who have smoked for several years are actually pretty aware of the fact that they are addicts.



I really hope that no-one here takes offense when I refer to smokers as addicts- none is intended.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

MurfdaSmurf


MurfdaSmurf

member
Location: Eugene, Oregon

Total posts: 59
Posted:Well now people lets start an international ban upon motor vehicals. We can all agree that not only are they cancer cuasing, but cuase death in many other ways ie crashing into you. Untill that ban is in effect I say lay off the smokers. They have just as much right as non-smokers. I agree that you should not be forced to breath smoke in a bus or an enclosed space where the ratio of non-smokers and smoker may be vague. But I think we should have the ability to smoke in a bar or a pub if the owner wants it to be a smoking place. I do not think government should be able to control that. Maybe Onewheeldave you should look at the lack of non-smoking pubs before all this as a sign that the pub patrons want smoking, or at least their owners did.

I thought I waz just dreammin'?!!??!!??!! Dis place can't really be real.

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:Written by: TheBovrilMonkey

Written by: Mynci

because this is in chat and NOT discussions I'm trying not to stretch my brain.



There wasn't a seperate discussion section when this thread was started, if there was it would have been started there wink



Sorry Mr Bovril... redface
and thats ok Mr Dave


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali, Australia

Total posts: 4030
Posted:Hi Dave!
I remember having chats with you in this excellent thread

You are just such a clear and calm character, I have sooo much admiration for you hug and hope I get to meet you one day.

Happy freedom!


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: murfdasmurf

Well now people lets start an international ban upon motor vehicals. We can all agree that not only are they cancer cuasing, but cuase death in many other ways ie crashing into you. Untill that ban is in effect I say lay off the smokers.



As I've said previously I'd be happy for the car problem to be addressed- in my view the world can do with a great deal less cars and the harm that comes from them.

One difference between cars and smoking though is that a ban is not really practical with cars- other tactics are much more appropriate.

Whereas with smoking in public places (no-one here is talking about banning smoking per se), bans are not only practical (they've already been successful for transport., colleges and, in the areas that have tried it- bars). They also are more effective than other non-ban based methods.

But, like I've said before, there are many issues that need putting right in this world, and those who choose to address the smoking problem are under NO obligation whatsoever to simultaneously tackle all the other problems- they can choose to focus on the ones they personally feel motivated to tackle.

If you feel strongly about the car problem, then get to work on addressing it.

Written by: murfdasmurf

Maybe Onewheeldave you should look at the lack of non-smoking pubs before all this as a sign that the pub patrons want smoking, or at least their owners did.



As long as you, when the smoking bans are in place, take that as a sign that pub patrons want clean air?

I've given my perspective on that issue before in this thread- do you seriously think that the 40-60% of smokers sat in; not just a smokey atmosphere, but actually the most smokey atmosphere we encounter in everyday life; were actually happy for it to be that way?

As I previously pointed out, it's totally impractical to complain in that situation, as, at best you will be embarrisingly ignored, and, at worst, you risk getting your head kicked in.

The reason pubs containing non-smokers are smoky is more akin to bullying. Most smokers simply do not care that they are inflicting unpleasant and toxic fumes on non-smokers in a pub.

The simple fact is that, in the UK, most surveys are showing that the majority of the population support a ban on smoking in pubs- and that includes many smokers.

From experience with previous bans (transport, colleges, workplaces etc), most smokers realise that its actually no big deal- they still get to smoke, and they get their own place and time to do it, in which they hook up with their other smoking friends (I speak from experience- i was a smoker when at college- having to go outside at breaks to smoke was not considered an inconvenience by any of us).

So- the majority of the population (non smokers and smokers) support the ban on smoking in pubs; the majority of smokers realise now that their fumes cause understandable distress to non-smokers in the same room, and, the majority of smokers don't actually mind having to go outside to smoke.

ie, you are in a tiny minority on this issue.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: newgabe

Hi Dave!
I remember having chats with you in this excellent thread

You are just such a clear and calm character, I have sooo much admiration for you hug and hope I get to meet you one day.

Happy freedom!


Nice of you to say smile

Weren't you in the midst of quitting on that thread? How did it work out?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

MurfdaSmurf


MurfdaSmurf

member
Location: Eugene, Oregon

Total posts: 59
Posted:What is this stuff you keep saying Dave about the majority this or most that... I was told by a wise person once that anyone who has to state their case by saying most and the majority all the time can't really back up their opinion. Plus it is statistics and we both have agreed that statistics are crap Dave. You hold strongly to your OPINION. That is fine I am secure in mine, I know it is an opinion. Do you know that? You seem to like going on and on about this breaking everyone down with point by point arguments. And you do give off a holier tha thou feel Dave. Just my opinion but youo really seem hot in the collar over this issue. Another wise man once said to me that the worst anti-smokers are the ones who quit themselves. Maybe you fall into this catagory Dave. I am just wondering why you are taking this on as such a big deal and writing your essays for each post backing smokers rights. I plan to quit but I still think smokers have the right to smoke in public. With in reason of course. But I don't see goverment laws banning pub/reastuant/coffee house smoking as with in reason. I say simplely if non-smokers want them open your own and make them non-smoking don't have government force people to take it your way. That makes you the bully and worse than the inconsiderate smokers. By the way that smokey attmosphere is easily taken care of by a good ventalation system. They work great and a lot of bars I know use them to keep people like you from griping. Maybe government should make a law to have the ventalation?

I thought I waz just dreammin'?!!??!!??!! Dis place can't really be real.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I'm not mentioning the majority because I believe that majority consensus=right; I don't myself believe that.

I mentioned it because some of the pro-smoking-pub people here are talking about scenarios where there may be more smokers in a pub than non-smokers.

ie, personally, who's in the majority and who's in the minority is, IMO, irrelevant- however, for those smokers who seem to think it is relevant, I'm simply offering a counter example.

------------

You say I try to break down pro-smoking arguments with point-by-point arguments? We're in a discussion where the pro-smokers are arguing for a point of view which I consider to be wrong, what do you expect me to do?

There's a lot of people here who appreciate the way I try to break down complex issues into simple and easy-to-understand points; this is the way I deal with complex issues,i personally find it very effective.

I'm most certainly not 'hot-under-the-collar' over this, but I am passionate, I do believe very strongly in my opinions and conclusions on this issue.

That's not because i like the sound of them, or because I feel the need to be declared 'right'- it's because I've put a hell of a lot of thought into all aspects of smoking.

Smoking fascinates me because it so successfully entices and entraps huge numbers of people who are, in all other ways, intelligent and in control of their lives. There are so many people out there who so much want to quit smoking, and try so very hard over many years- yet they find it impossible to quit.

I was one myself, but, through good luck, good research, and hard work, I escaped.

I was a slave, and I knew it; now I'm not a slave (and I know that as well). And to cease being a slave is very good indeed, so I endeavour to share it.

I try not to piss off smokers, I really do- but it's not my highest priority, and I accept that some smokers will be wound up by what I say.

My priority will always be to pass on to those smokers who do sincerely want to quit, information that will help them- a further priority is to help bring about a world where smoking claims less victims.

Those priorities require me to speak the truth as I see it, and that includes my belief that smokers are addicts, and that society should bar smoking in all public places where non-smokers are present.

All I can say to any smokers who feel I'm attacking them, is that I'm not. If they want to elaborate on anything I say which they feel is offensive, then I'll be happy to address it.

But the fact that I consider my opinions to be true, isn't something I'm going to apologise for- I've put a lot of thought and effort into them, and yes, I do consider them to be right.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:Thanks, dave that was good.

I personally agree. I hate the fact I started smoking at 20 and would love to quit but not in the right place now.

However I do recall that only in the first half of this century there were doctors saying cigarettes are good for you which may explain the number of older smokers hooked before they knew the problems...

I try to respect non-smokers by:
not smoking in restaurants (i'll go outside)
moving away if I see them uncomfortable (but as I said earlier I don't like the way some non-smokers fake cough arrogantly and look down their noses at me like i was a rapist.) Yes I have an addiction but remember, deep down we smokers know we are killing ourselves and many I know carry a deep seated self loathing, please try and remember and don't lay into us.

When I suffered depression, I was advised NOT to give up smoking. This was because, although smoking causes depressive effects, the act of QUITTING has be seen to cause more serious depressive effects. (the ONLY time my doctor advised against quitting)

but dave you are right even if I joke, I enjoy and currently NEED that nicotine...


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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squarexbear
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

squarexbear

....of doom!
Location: Hastings, UK

Total posts: 585
Posted:I have a problem with people smoking.

I used to smoke, but since giving up i've developed some bizarre physical responses to smoke. for instance, if i spend any length of time breathing in smoke from straight cigarettes i'm guaranteed to spend the next day with the most vile nausea. i don't know why its straights, but anything else - bonfires, rollies, weed etc - just doesnt produce the same effect.

it makes pubs, clubs, bars, gigs etc a nightmare. even if i'm not drinking i'm aware that i'll wake up the next day feeling vile. add to the nausea nasty lungs and itchy scalp (all brought on by second hand smoke) you've got a winning combination for feeling scummy.

i'd like to see smoking banned everywhere. i know that if it had been i would have given up smoking a lot earlier. i'd like to be able to enjoy my nights out without worrying about the next day...i can deal with hangovers. they're fair. i do that to myself.

anyway, my 2 cents


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Thanks for posting that mynci.

I agree fully with the self-loathing; it was obvious to me when I finally succeeded in quitting that, as a smoker I was carrying a lot of that around with me.

Concerning depression, don't take this the wrong way, cos I fully understand what it's like to be far gone in that direction, and in no way am I suggesting that you should quit at a time when you don't feel it's right, but I'm going to say this because it's what happened to me.

The time when I was making real big efforts to quit (ie just about every week) co-incided with a period of long, deep, and serious depression (over two years).

I really was far gone, and in a dangerous (to myself) state back then, and feeling very much that available medical help was not, for me, that useful.

I was fortunate, and my escape from smoking addiction co-incided with my escape from depression.

My impression afterwards was that the smoking and depression were far from unconnected.

The methods I used to get control over the depression were essentially similar to the ones I used to escape smoking, and the fact that they succeeded so well with the smoking gave me a lot of much needed encouragement and faith in them which really boosted the fight against depression.

And of course, part of the self-loathing I carried back then, was fueled by my sense of failure in being unable to stop smoking (at that point I hated smoking, and it really got to me that I couldn't quit it), so, when I managed to quit it was a great boost, and, getting control over that part of my life was good inspiration for getting control over the other parts as well.

I really do know what it's like to be a smoker, in particular I know what it's like to be a despairing smoking addict, feeling out of control and full of self-loathing, and, knowing that, I really don't want to come across as 'laying into smokers'.

But, the fact is that part of my road to escape involved facing up to a lot of hard stuff concerning my real motivations, taking a hard look at those parts of my own mind that were not helping things, and seeing that I was an addict.

If I hadn't done those things, I'd be lighting a cigarette up right now, as I write this- and I really can't convey how happy I am to not be doing that smile

Hope things work out for you mynci.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:cheers dude... apart from the smoking, I am currently happier than I can remember (depression came about due to poor relationship I think)

I will give up smoking I know I can... but later.... I like that first post-coital cigarette I've been having a lot of recently and don't want to jinx it just yet. (poor excuse if every there was one, but don't want to become irratible(sp) this early in a new relationship


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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siren1987


siren1987

newbie
Location: Nottingham, England

Total posts: 22
Posted:I used to smoke but i'd never ever do it near any one who wouldn't approve. i actually smoked at school so it was outside and with other people who smoked. i acn't even think about touching a cig now though, they make me feel sick.
i do think that smoking should be very very banned in public places. i can't really believe that people are still allowed to smoke in restraunts, in seperate areas, granted, but why the [censored] would anyone want to smoke while they eat?!?!?!?! if anyone can enlighten me in this confusement, please do.

jo xxx


ummm.... i'll edit this when i think of something witty to say

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MurfdaSmurf


MurfdaSmurf

member
Location: Eugene, Oregon

Total posts: 59
Posted:It isn't while you eat, but right after. The after eating smoke is pretty ussual. It also helps signal the waiter that you are done and it is time to suggest desert. Also it does help kill time while waiting for food.

I thought I waz just dreammin'?!!??!!??!! Dis place can't really be real.

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siren1987


siren1987

newbie
Location: Nottingham, England

Total posts: 22
Posted:but doesn't it ruin the taste of the food if you smoke before eating? especially if you smoke before desert, thats the best bit!!! mmmm chocolate fudge cake *drools*

ummm.... i'll edit this when i think of something witty to say

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:Chocolate... is bad. bad I tell you, BAD!!!!!!!!

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

Delete

siren1987


siren1987

newbie
Location: Nottingham, England

Total posts: 22
Posted:only bad in the long term, very very good in the short term and that's all that matters......
lol


ummm.... i'll edit this when i think of something witty to say

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