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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Having just got back from a pub where at least two thirds of the people there were smoking like chimneys, I'm really pissed off.
Not only are my eyes still stinging, but my throat is feeling really raw and my clothes, skin and hair stink of cigarettes.

What I'd really like to know is why? Why do people, knowing full well that it makes everything around them stink and that it's killing them slowly, still smoke?


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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hexagonic
hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 18th Feb 2004
Total posts: 1687
Posted:Written by: TheBovrilMonkey

I really just don't see why so many people smoke at all


<quote from page one>

I've just given up. smile I think nicotine is one of the most powerful drugs on this earth and by far one of the most addictive. I've taken my fair share of class A drugs but none are quite as addictive as nicotine. I think the real problem is that not only is nicotine **really** addictive, but it's also available on every corner shop, pub, restaurant, off license, supermarket etc in the country (and overseas). And so it's very easy for such an addictive drug to be overused. I think if some illegal drugs were sold on every street corner in the land there would be some problems with those drugs too.

But going back to your original post, people in the pub generally just sit there drinking and spouting bullshit. drinking and smoking are about the most excerise anyone is going to do in there whilst they're sitting down (or even standing up) in there. That's not really my bag, i gave up drinking (heavily, anyway) quite a few years ago. And yes it is disgusting going to the pub for non smokers since nowadays the insides of most pubs look like the inside of smokers lungs, smelly with a horrible yellow stain on the wall.

I'm getting used to the idea of what they do in Italy - hang out in Piazza's, not so much drinking but just hanging out. offtopic being drunk in Italy is frowned upon, which i really like smile In the UK there aren't many places where you can do that - every public space seems to have been bought up by some company or turned into another pub. I think as a country we could do with more public spaces where it's possible to just go and hang out, ok it's not as warm as Italy but I am finding that in the UK to do anything at night short of freezing your nuts off in the local park you have to pay money or sit in one of those horrible smoke filled pubs.

OOOpps did i go off topic a little bit? Anyway there are some thoughts.


ah wah wah wah a wah wah

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Gayle......!




I also agree that smokers should respect the non-smokers view and if they are uncomfortable around smoke then the smoker should move away. I think that all people should be considerate of other people's views.









Sounds initially reasonable; the problem when it comes to putting it into practice are that not all smokers are that reasonable about non-smokers expressing that smoking is making them uncomfortable.



This can range from grudging compliance (embarrassing for the non-smoker) to outright refusal, or, in extreme cases, to physical violence.



And of course, when the smokers are people you don't know, it's impossible to judge whether they are, like you, reasonable, or whether they're in the latter category.



Let's be realistic, over the past 50 years of public smoking there's always been the options of smokers appreciating that public smoking infringes on the rights of non-smokers; there's always been the option for the public house industry to have a good proportion of non-smoking pubs- and it just did not happen.



It's only happening now because everyones twigged that bans on public smoking are going to happen.



The only effective means of protecting non-smokers right to clean air have been through bans- examples being the bans on public transport, workplaces and colleges.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Arty Farty
Arty Farty

I wear yellow on monday
Location: Farnham Ahoy
Member Since: 5th Jul 2005
Total posts: 551
Posted:Written by: Gayle......!


I also agree that smokers should respect the non-smokers view and if they are uncomfortable around smoke then the smoker should move away. I think that all people should be considerate of other people's views.







If everyone has to be considerate, the non-smoker should be considerate that the person next to them is smoking, and kindly move away him/her self.



This boiles down to peoples perceptions on what 'considerate' means. I would say im a considerate smoker. Im not about to purposely blow smoke into that persons face, but then im certainly not going to move either.

"oh sorry mr non-smoker, is my smoke annoying you? Ok, i'll just move myself into that corner away from my friends without a seat" ........yeah, that'll happen!!! Im not trying to piss people off, but if you are allowed to smoke in a pub, restaurant, then so be it, people know what they're getting themselves into.



(i will move away from babies)


You'll find me on the dance floor

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Brenn
Brenn

Will carpal your tunnel in a minute.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 28th Jun 2004
Total posts: 3286
Posted:As an asthmatic, I'm rather biased towards smoking simply because it can [censored] around with me a lot more quicker than a normal person can. Curiosity has led me to try it once in my more flat years of my life, but it has never held me. I fail to see what it is that hooks so many other people, and other fellow asthmatics, sadly.

I think people are more tight on cigarettes because it can affect other people indirectly. With alcohol, its not as likely. i.e. you can't get drunk just by standing there next to another drunk person (all jokes asides :P ), but with smokers you can inhale their smoke.
In my earlier years when I had nights out with friends and we went to bars and I came home, I was accused by my parents of smoking simply of how my clothes smelt. A minor but recurring annoyance for me.

But while I say that people are more shunning of cigarette users, its not to say I encourage extreme drinking, either. I have a glass of red for dinner every now and again because it accompanies my meals well, and it has been shown to be good for your health in moderation. I'm lucky to have a hard night on the tank every month to two months, and even then I seldom get sick because I know my limits and I stick to them.

Things wouldnt be so bad if substances werent so addictive and the users had a stronger mind. People don't "need" these things: They are told they do, whether its through media or suckered acquaintances, and sadly it gets most people. And even sadder it kills some, as it has killed someone I knew very well.


&#2384;

Owner of burningoftheclavey smile
Owned by Lost83spy

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:but smoke out the nose is cool. sorry to be childish but I only see that from a non smoker when they cough near me smoking.. (those guys should see a doctor with a chest that weak) honestly though. people who do that little cough when around a smoker p1ss me off. if your not happy then ask politely... don't pretend my 1 fag is killing you!!!! i'm more than happy to move to avoid grief. i'm a smoker not an arrogant tw@t... well not ALL the time. grrrrr. bad day, I need a cigarette

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:Written by: Lizzy

ditto

like i said, alcohol kills more people every year than probably all class A's and B's put together!!

(if anyone wants to prove me wrong on that point, please do - i'd like to see the figures!)




while this is obviously correct, and i'm essentially a lot more anti alcohol than i am other drugs i'd like to point out that this may have a bit to do with the fact that alcohol is legal. And if there was as much a culture for other drugs and if they were taken in such a widespread way then the death rates for the other drugs may well be an awful lot higher.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Mynci

sorry to be childish but I only see that from a non smoker when they cough near me smoking.. (those guys should see a doctor with a chest that weak)



???healthy lungs when exposed to cigarette smoke will cough, as the smoke is toxic- your body knows it and initiates a coughing response. If you don't cough (i.e. most smokers) then you haven't got strong lungs, you've got defective lungs.

Written by: Mynci

honestly though. people who do that little cough when around a smoker p1ss me off. if your not happy then ask politely... don't pretend my 1 fag is killing you!!!! I'm more than happy to move to avoid grief. I'm a smoker not an arrogant tw@t... well not ALL the time. grrrrr. bad day, I need a cigarette






Firstly, the cough may be genuine- non smokers with healthy lungs will naturally cough when exposed to cigarette smoke.

Even if the cough is a conscious hint, then try to see it from their point of view. You may prefer then to ask politely, and you may not be, as you put it, an arrogant tw@t- but many smokers are, many smokers will be aggressive when asked.

As I mentioned in my previous post, it isn't clear whether any given smoker is reasonable, or, an arrogant tw@t- that is one of the reasons why many non-smokers resort to hints rather than a straight verbal request.

-----------------

IMO, what smokers need to realise (and I suspect that many already do) is that this particular playing field has been skewed for many decades.

There has never been a fair deal for the non-smoker- until recently non smoking pubs (the prime place of socialising for much of the community) numbered well under 1% of the total- most people did not have a non-smoking pub that they could go to. This, despite the fact that 40-60% of the population did not smoke- that does not tally: >40% and <1% are not fair in proportion to one another.

Historically, not all, but nevertheless many smokers have been, as mynci put it, arrogant tw@ts- you would not ask them to please not smoke as a) it would be a waste of time, and b) you may be verbally, or even physically, assaulted.

The reason most public places where full of smoke was more akin to bullying than fairness.

The only method that has been effective in bringing about clean air for non-smokers have been bans- pretty much all of which have, despite the protests that 'it can never work'- been wildly successful.

Who here would seriously go back (assuming you're old enough to remember this) the bad old days when buses would reek of cigarette smoke to the extent that you would feel ill after riding them?

The bans on buses, trains, in colleges and workplaces were 100% good and 100% fair- even most smokers acknowledge that.

I look forward to the day when I, and all the others who currently don't go to pubs, can do so in the knowledge that we don't have to have this selfish habit forced upon us.

It would be great if most smokers were reasonable, and actually went to the trouble of ensuring they didn't trample over the rights of non-smokers- it really would be great, but, it isn't the case, and never has been; most especially when the smokers are in a pack, at which point you can wave goodbye to clear air, and to any resect for those present who don't smoke.

Smokers- cut the bullshit and face the facts- your habit is not glamorous, it's most certainly got nothing to do with choice- you've got a problem- you're addicted to something which will probably kill you.

Now I appreciate that, for many, addiction is not easy to overcome (I know this from experience) and, if you can't, then fine- continue smoking.

But please, face up to the truth and be honest- think of the next generation who don't need this useless addiction.

The last thing they need is the message that comes across when smoking is seen as a normal social activity, as something that people choose to do cos it tastes nice, or relaxes you, or whatever other rubbish people use to hide from themselves the simple fact that they are a drug addict.

I'd much rather the next generation grow up in a world where they can socialise in a pub without feeling inclined to take up smoking purely to make the atmosphere tolerable. I'd rather they grew up in a world where smokers smoke in special places away from non-smokers- where smoking is seen as what it is- a problem akin to alcoholism or any other addiction.

I've got no problem with smokers who don't bullshit, and face up to the true- if they go a step further and try to help others by saying, 'yes, I'm a smoker, but it's cos I'm addicted' then that's great.

I fully appreciate the difficulty of quitting- the main reason I know I'll never again put a cigarette in my mouth is that I really don't think I could quit again; certainly, when it comes to my smoking peers over the last decade, their success rate at quitting has been abysmal, and most of them look set to die as smokers- I like these people- they don't deserve that.

Smoking is such a waste- the next generation don't need to go through what we did.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:*APPLAUSE*

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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MurfdaSmurf
MurfdaSmurf

member
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Member Since: 30th Aug 2005
Total posts: 59
Posted:Ok some fun facts about smoking ( sorry I cant give sources it way way too long ago)

After one year of quitting smoking your lings are cleaned out 90%
the rest takes the rest of your life to clean and never fully.

Cars/ one car pruduces more cancer cuasing agents in one hour than a carton of cigs

A person that has smoked and quit has "stronger" lungs than someone that has never smoked. ( I am not sure what they ment by stronger )

Quiters never win

Noone likes a quiter


I thought I waz just dreammin'?!!??!!??!! Dis place can't really be real.

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MurfdaSmurf
MurfdaSmurf

member
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Member Since: 30th Aug 2005
Total posts: 59
Posted:oops it was lungs not lings

Just to put things in perspective I am getting ready to quit smoking by cutting down dramaticly. I only smoke nonadditive cigs. Like American Spirit or Winston. I have quit for over a year before then started again after the majority of stuff has cleared out. Also I like dropping my addiction to a min.

I do think that nonsmokers should consider smokers as well as smokers concidering them.

In California where you can't smoke in any public buildings I have seen 80% of a bar hanging outside to catch a smoke. That is stupid. If the majority of the people are smokers then you suold let them smoke inside.

And the Dr from my other post did go on and on about how statistics can not be trusted. The main thrust of his argument is that major medical journals have possable evidence that tobacco could have medicinal effects. He thinks more research should be done to find out what if any medicinal aplications are there.


I thought I waz just dreammin'?!!??!!??!! Dis place can't really be real.

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house_of_mill
house_of_mill

old hand
Location: Manchester England
Member Since: 20th Jul 2004
Total posts: 896
Posted:I probably would like smoking to be banned in pubs, as pubs do get so smoky and like you Bov it hurts peoples eyes etc and I'm a smoker, i find if I sit in a pub all I want to do is ether drink really fast, try and play pool, or smoke I dont really like smoking but its a time killer if I'm in my house i wont think about smoking unless I've got a little green and then I'll smoke one and pick up toys all night.

But as I was saying banning smoking in pubs would be good as it would leave me with two options dont smoke or dont go to the pub I'd prefer to just sit in the park and smoke a J then spin for hours than sit pouring Alcohol into my gut over and over again. Its the lesser of two evils I'd say just as long as your smoke isnt in peoples way,


*Thats one of my favourite Nurseries over there,*

Roman, Trippie Hippie,On the way back from Play Festival

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: MurfdaSmurf


oops it was lungs not lings



Just to put things in perspective I am getting ready to quit smoking by cutting down dramaticly. I only smoke nonadditive cigs. Like American Spirit or Winston. I have quit for over a year before then started again after the majority of stuff has cleared out. Also I like dropping my addiction to a min.







Good luck with quitting. My advice would be to get a copy of Allen Carrs 'Easy way to quit smoking', read it, and follow it to the letter. Cutting down is generally not an effective way to quit and actually plays right into the hands of the part of your mind that wants you to stay addicted.









Written by: MurfdaSmurf




In California where you can't smoke in any public buildings I have seen 80% of a bar hanging outside to catch a smoke. That is stupid. If the majority of the people are smokers then you suold let them smoke inside.







I don't see it as stupid- it's certainly a lot more sensible than the pre-ban scenario of non-smokers being subjected to the smoke of others.



Let's remember why the bans are in place- it would be great if it was out of consideration to the rights of non-smokers to breathe clean air, but that's not quite the real reason.



The main reason that bans are being put in place is in large part due to employment regulations that entitle employees a safe workplace, and the fact that if they are exposed to toxins in their workplace, they are entitled to sue.



Employers and goverments often drag their feet over many issues that should be addressed, but they do tend to get their act together when being sued is a possibiltiy.



So, the actual proportions of smokers to non-smokers in a bar at a given time, is not really relevant- you've got bar staff their and they are entitled to a safe environment.











Written by: MurfdaSmurf




And the Dr from my other post did go on and on about how statistics can not be trusted. The main thrust of his argument is that major medical journals have possable evidence that tobacco could have medicinal effects. He thinks more research should be done to find out what if any medicinal aplications are there.





Fair enough, but my advice to you, as a would be quitter, is don't get distracted by stuff like this. As an addict your main obstacle to quitting is that part of your own mind whuch will do anything to keep you putting cigarettes in your mouth.



Even if there are some health benefits to smoking, there's no way they come close to compensating for the health deficits due to smoking.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:One question...isn't the biggest killer in the UK STILL heart disease?
Read somewhere on here they were thinking of taking the NHS away from smokers. Does that mean they'll take the NHS away from people who eat nothing but fatty foods and get no exercise? Have the government implemented 70% tax on fatty and unhealthy foods? or tax relief on gym membership? Pretty sure they haven't.
Oh and how about not treating drunk drivers after a crash? or P1ss-heads after a drunken brawl, seems a bit picky to me.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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duvan
duvan

ancient oachkatzlschwoaf
Location: germany
Member Since: 13th Nov 2002
Total posts: 249
Posted:I'd love to quit but I have no idea WHY I should

anybody here having the same problems ?

I started 3 years ago and smoke about 10- 20 cigarettes a day..
I even smoke if I am sick or I have a quinsy.
Give me a reason and I might be able to quit. But actually I still like it too much drinking a glass of wine and smoking a bunch of cigarettes.

I feel how it weakens my body
I feel how it pollutes my lungs ( before smoking I played trumpet for 11 years )
I feel how it disturbs my skin

arghgnbl,...
tell me how to get the motivation to stop..
pleeese frown


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[noodles]
[noodles]

*Property of Pigeon Wigeon*
Location: Locked In Pigeons Chimney
Member Since: 31st Jul 2005
Total posts: 893
Posted:Written by: duvan

Give me a reason and I might be able to quit



Thats a problem my friend has. She doesn't have the motivation to quit. and no i'm not confusing motivation with will power. I mean the reason you want to quit. That's what anyone quitting needs. You have to find your own personal reason. Mine was so that I could inprove my fitness and therefore improve my parkour. That was the motivation needed and everytime I got a craving I focused on that. Yes you need a hell of a lot of will power as well but without your own reason you will never make it.

On the whole public smoking thing I like to think I know most sides of the arguement. I have been a non-smoker, a smoker, a reformed smoker and also I have worked on bars where smoking was allowed and where smoking wasn't allowed. I think the way forward is that smoking should be banned in all food serving areas. That's in the interests of health and hygiene. If a pub wants a smoking section it needs to be separated from the non smoking section and have adaquate ventilation. A total ban on smoking would not work. Do you really think a traditional working mans pub in a town would actually adhere to the rules? No way. Same goes for little country pubs. Smoking banned in food service areas (which I beleive is what the plan is) is a good idea but a total ban on smoking in all pubs is a very bad idea.


Could somebody stop the room please... I'd like to get off

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:duvan I'm not the best person to tell you but if you want to stop:

If your a man - you'll lose the ability to get an erection
you will smell and the opposite sex will be repulsed by you
you will run out of money buying cigarettes and die alone and poor
with the money you save you can buy more cool spinning toys or go on holiday
you won't stain your fingers anymore if you quit.
that cough in the morning will stop.
Any more mate? (I still smoke by the way, just wanted to help)


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:On reasons to stop-

traditionally they tend to focus on saving money, health, smell etc.

Personally I found when making many attempts to quit over several years, that,for me, those reasons did not suffice.

For example- if I quit to save money then that motivation goes when you find that you can get very cheap rolling tobacca from dodgy pubs etc.

Despite many failed quitting attempts, there was still some deep desire to quit, even though I didn't know what it was.

It was only when I finally managed to quit for good, that I understood what the real motivation was- and it was 'freedom'.

Towards the end of my smoking, all illusions of enjoying smoking, or of smoking having any benefits whatsoever, were gone. The only reason I smoked then was because I was compelled to do so, by addiction.

Having escaped, I realised that my true motivation to quit, was, to not be a slave.

Health benefits etc are good, but, for me, freedom was the main motivation.

Having said that, the time I successfully quit was around the time that I was starting to work with young people in schools and youth groups, and one of the things that help me stay on the quitting trail was that I knew that, for me to smoke set a bad example to them, and for me to not-smoke, set a good example.

It's obvious from my other posts that I really do feel very strongly about the next generation wasting their health and freedom on this nasty and insiduous addiction- it's my belief that past generations of smokers were victims; for example, my parents who were subjected to great social and cultural pressures to acquire a smoking addiction that has trapped them for all their lives.

So, for me, a second good motivation is the next generation. I think for many of us on this board, this is a important one because we tend to do stuff that some young people are going to see as 'cool' (fire spinning, poi, unicycling etc). We all know how suseptable young people are to 'buying into lifestyles'- it's easy for them to think 'those fire spinners are so cool' whilst noticing that they're all smokers, and surely people so cool would only smoke through choice, not compulsion etc.

Finally, and this is something I've only very recently realised, is that one of the things that motivates me in general, is finding solutions eg how can I make this in an efficient way, out of cheap materials but make it work really well.

So, with smoking, I basically had a big puzzle that I tried to crack over more than ten years= how can decide to not use these things (cigarettes) and actually stick to it- how can I free myself from this compulsion?

And, having finally solved the puzzle, to understand the means well enough that I can try to pass on this solution to others who similarly want to escape.

So, to summarise-

1. Freedom
2. The next generation
3. Solving the puzzle


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

duvan
duvan

ancient oachkatzlschwoaf
Location: germany
Member Since: 13th Nov 2002
Total posts: 249
Posted:onewheeldave I read your posts about smoking many times and I really want to tell you that I respect your great way of explaining things and make them more clear ! thanx a lot for that smile

mynci : I thought about these reasons too now for a while but I never really managed it to stop smoking because there are so many arguments who are fitting AGAINST these reasons frown

noodles : jap, will power .... I get easily addicted to no matter what it is... frown


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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:I did say I wasn't the person to ask. if you wanna quit you'll find a way duvan. beerchug

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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The Pixie
The Pixie

newbie
Location: Dublin
Member Since: 29th Jun 2005
Total posts: 20
Posted:Sorry to hear about your awful day on Sunday BovrilMonkey. All I can say is : If ye cant beat us join us! Or better still. Move to Ireland where it's illegal to smoke in pubs,restaraunts,shopping centres,buses,workplace,toilets, and no doubt the open air. Happy days! I think not.





shrug shrug


FEEEEEBS MAIL

Away with the fairies....

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MurfdaSmurf
MurfdaSmurf

member
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Member Since: 30th Aug 2005
Total posts: 59
Posted:OK I tried to do the quote thang but it is too complicated for me at the moment.

I just want to respond to onewheeldave's comment about safe work place and smoke. I mean really if you sue a bar for having a smokey atmosphere then you are an [censored]. You would have had to know what you were getting into and accepted the chances. Also I do think that having your customers have to shlep outside to catch a smoke is a stupid thing. When I see the majority of customers leaving to smoke then there is something wrong. A lot of these places you can't take your drink so you have to leave it inside. Opening a possablity for the drink to be doctored ie Ruffies. I know you can put a air cleaner into a bar, I have seen them work. But what it really comes down to for me is smokers have become ostracised from places that they are the majority. That is stupid. There is a reason most bars were smoking, cuz most of the people who went to them smoked. If your a non-smoker go to a non-smoking bar. Don't make others conform to your holier than tho attitude. Don't complain of the smell, or health risk, or anything. You willingly stepped into a place with smoking accept that you may have to deal with it.

OK I went off a lilttle, but it really gets to me. I am a considerate smoker. In my own car or house I ask if others mind if I smoke. I see more and more that smokers can not smoke when and where they want to. I feel that this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. Someplaces just go hand in hand with smoking. I heard when smoking was outlawed in Paris coffee houses the owners politely put ashtrays that said "thank you for not smoking" on the tables. They would come around and empty all the butts out and put the sign back in. Coffee and smoking just go together, just like drinking booze and smoking. Why is it so hard to see that it is only hurting bussiness to try and stop it.


I thought I waz just dreammin'?!!??!!??!! Dis place can't really be real.

Delete

onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: duvan

onewheeldave I read your posts about smoking many times and I really want to tell you that I respect your great way of explaining things and make them more clear ! thanx a lot for that smile



Thanks smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: MurfdaSmurf

.....When I see the majority of customers leaving to smoke then there is something wrong. ..................But what it really comes down to for me is smokers have become ostracised from places that they are the majority. That is stupid. There is a reason most bars were smoking, cuz most of the people who went to them smoked.



Firstly, your point about the risk of drug spiking is a good one, and something should be done about- IMO, it would be something other than allowing smoking indoors.

Your points about smoking and drinking going together and about the majority of pub users smoking are, IMO opinion, in need of evidence, and that is not provided by current or past observations of pub life- as these have all been seriously skewed by the fact that the portions of non-smoking pubs have not corresponded to the portion of non-smokers.

When the bans are in place (and they will be) then we'll see more realistic proportions of smokers to non-smokers.

I suspect that, when pubs are finally a place where the views of the non-smoking majority are respected, we'll see that the number of people going outside for a cig will be less than half.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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MurfdaSmurf
MurfdaSmurf

member
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Member Since: 30th Aug 2005
Total posts: 59
Posted:Onewheeldave

Maybe the difference is your in the UK and I am in the US. I do know from my friends in Europe that smoking in pubs/bars is different there. Here we don't have many Pubs we have bars and clubs. There is a big difference I feel. I acttully prefere the feel of a Pub and will go out of my way to go to it. American bars though are what I have been talking about so maybe it is a difference of cultures that is keeping us from agreeing?


I thought I waz just dreammin'?!!??!!??!! Dis place can't really be real.

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: Mynci

One question...isn't the biggest killer in the UK STILL heart disease?
Read somewhere on here they were thinking of taking the NHS away from smokers. Does that mean they'll take the NHS away from people who eat nothing but fatty foods and get no exercise? Have the government implemented 70% tax on fatty and unhealthy foods? or tax relief on gym membership? Pretty sure they haven't.
Oh and how about not treating drunk drivers after a crash? or P1ss-heads after a drunken brawl, seems a bit picky to me.



Good ideas. Maybe someone will see them and implement them. smile (note the striking lack of sarcasm there)


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: MurfdaSmurf

American bars though are what I have been talking about so maybe it is a difference of cultures that is keeping us from agreeing?



No, the source of our disagreement is that I believe the rights of non-smokers to clean air in all public places, including public transport, workplaces, colleges, places of socialising (eg pubs) etc, overide the rights of smokers to smoke in those places.

I also strongly believe that we owe it to the next generation to make it clear that smoking is not about choice, freedom and enjoyment, but is a drug addiction carried out by victims of precisely the message that has, till now, been put out by society, ie that smoking is 'normal' and socially acceptable.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:Very true... so do I have the right to walk through a town centre without being abused by drunk people? people without an 'addiction' but more likely to cause accute medical problems like broken noses or cuts compared to the chronic condition of second hand smoke. If you don't want second hand smoke, don't use public transport (diesel fumes are worse for you than cigarette smoke and public transport is no smoking.) And if you don't want to go to a smokey atmosphere that is your choice.... why should non-smokers get all the pubs... where a large percentage of patrons are smokers.
There are non-smoking pubs in this country why not visit one of them?
Smoking is socially acceptable (I have made good friends from people asking for a lighter or a cigarette) it is a way to meet and socially interact with people. just because a percentage of the population does not partake does not make a thing socially unacceptable. Driving a car causes toxic fumes to be produced, uses fossil fuels, and causes 1000's of deaths each year... is it socially un-acceptable? would our country work without transport?


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: mynci




Very true... so do I have the right to walk through a town centre without being abused by drunk people? people without an 'addiction' but more likely to cause accute medical problems like broken noses or cuts compared to the chronic condition of second hand smoke.







Yes, you do have that right.



Written by: mynci


If you don't want second hand smoke, don't use public transport (diesel fumes are worse for you than cigarette smoke and public transport is no smoking.)







It's second hand cigarette smoke I'm wanting to not have forced on me. The current state of transport technology means that fuel fumes are unavoidable when traveling; the good thing is that at least the avoidable extra pollution of cigarette smoke is now dissallowed (I'm old enough to remember when smoking on buses was permitted, and it was highly unpleasant).



Having said that, I walk most places and don't make much use of public transport.





Written by: mynci


And if you don't want to go to a smokey atmosphere that is your choice.... why should non-smokers get all the pubs... where a large percentage of patrons are smokers.

There are non-smoking pubs in this country why not visit one of them?







Rubbish! Have you not read the previous posts which explained that-



1. non-smoking pubs have previously been rare (<1% of the total)- certainly in no way where they proportionate to the fact that more than 50% of the population are non-smokers



2. The only reason non-smoking pubs are on the increase is because it's now obvious that the bans are coming; without those threatened bans there would have been no concern over the plight of non-smokers whatsoever.



Written by: mynci




Smoking is socially acceptable (I have made good friends from people asking for a lighter or a cigarette) it is a way to meet and socially interact with people. just because a percentage of the population does not partake does not make a thing socially unacceptable.









Heroin is socially acceptable in certain circles too smile



Similarly, smoking may be socially acceptable amongst smokers, but, amonst non-smokers it isn't.



Smoking is not a way to meet and socially interact with people, it is an addiction. Heroin addicts and alcoholics in rehab no doubt get to meet some new friends; where ever people gather in a common cause there will be socialising, but that is a consequnce of them being in proximity, not because of their drug problems.



Written by: mynci




Driving a car causes toxic fumes to be produced, uses fossil fuels, and causes 1000's of deaths each year... is it socially un-acceptable? would our country work without transport?









There's many problems in the world- one is the smoking situation, another is the carnage caused by our car culture.



The latter in no way justifies not tackling the former. My personal interest here is to facilitate dealing with the smoking problem- this is because I have a lot of knowledge and experience of the issues (far more so than most smoking-addicts for example) and feel that I have something valuable to contribute to discussions on those issues.



I'm under no obligation to also tackle the car problem as well (although I do, for example I refrained from learning to drive, buying a car etc; thereby refusing to support the car industry- I have also, on this board, contributed to, and initiated, multiple threads suggesting ways to tackle the problems of the car culture and offer suggestions to cut down the harm that comes from it).



-----------------------------



I think mynci, that you are misguided, but sincere. You come across as being quite young, and I suspect that you have yet to realise the extent of the misery that smoking causes.



I really do believe that smoking is on its way out, for the first time we can anticipate a generation to come that will be free from the misinformation, lies, addiction and death toll of this horrible, insiduous drug.



It's easy for people like me, who've been around long enough to see the true miserable consequences of smoking, and who are amongst the lucky few to have been addicted to this drug and yet manage to escape- to stand up and speak our views on this issue.



For you and your friends it's more difficult to do what, in your hearts, you know to be the right thing- which is to do what you can to prevent the next generation of innocent potential victims of this worhtless, horrible drug.



Partly you're in denial- there is a stigma in being an addict. This shouldn't be the case, recognising that you're addicted is a first step to understanding, there's no shame in facing up to the fact that you're addicted- it's an insiduous drug that claims as victims people of all types eg intelligent people, strong-willed people, beautiful people etc.



There's most certainly no shame in being an addict who has the insight and courage to realise they they are addicted; and, if you can go beyond this and actually admit it to other people, this helping them to avoid falling into it themselves; then you are doing something good for the next generation.



Be honest, would you want your children to end up with a 30-a-day habit?



Smoking is not in need of defence- it's had a good run; over the past hundred years it's sucked many billions of people into addiction, and, killed 4,000,000 of them worldwide every year (WHO stats).



Cut the bullshit- it's not sociable, it has no benefits whatsoever- it's a filthy insiduous addiction that kills more people than all other drugs put together; it's time to wipe it out- you and your friends may be addicts, that doesn't mean you can't play a major part in helping with this.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave


I think mynci, that you are misguided, but sincere. You come across as being quite young, and I suspect that you have yet to realise the extent of the misery that smoking causes.



ubblol

Dude, i'm nearly 30 and have watched 4 people in my family die of cancer (true not smoking related) I have a biology degree and know ALL the problems caused by smoking. But I am a smoker who likes to debate and because this is in chat and NOT discussions I'm trying not to stretch my brain.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Written by: Mynci

because this is in chat and NOT discussions I'm trying not to stretch my brain.



There wasn't a seperate discussion section when this thread was started, if there was it would have been started there wink


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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