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LilBBoy
LilBBoy

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Location: Inverness, Scotland.
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Posted:Yet another thing I'd like to gather views on. For all you Buddhists out there, do you think Buddhism is a religion or more a way of life?

As a Thervadan Buddhist, I believe it is both. biggrin


Time does not exist. In theory, everything with a beginning has an end. Therefore, only things with an end can have a beginning. As time has no end, it has no beginning, therefore does not exist. GO PHILOSOPHY!!!
Brittle Week was the shizz!!!

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted:both, a religion is a way of life.



Buddhism, IMO, is much less corruptable than most religions. but it still requires faith, you cant neccissarily prove someone has achieved enlightenment and wont be reborn, in the same way you cant prove people will go to heaven or hell.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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LilBBoy
LilBBoy

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Location: Inverness, Scotland.
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Posted:biggrin Cool, thanks for replying! My wireless mouse is moving itself... lol!

Time does not exist. In theory, everything with a beginning has an end. Therefore, only things with an end can have a beginning. As time has no end, it has no beginning, therefore does not exist. GO PHILOSOPHY!!!
Brittle Week was the shizz!!!

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted:you only wanted one reply? are you gonna thank everyone that posts or am i just special? tongue wink

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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LilBBoy
LilBBoy

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Posted:Lol! Nah, got a habit of thankin first posters tongue

Time does not exist. In theory, everything with a beginning has an end. Therefore, only things with an end can have a beginning. As time has no end, it has no beginning, therefore does not exist. GO PHILOSOPHY!!!
Brittle Week was the shizz!!!

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted:winnah biggrin

whats your opinion on the subject?


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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LilBBoy
LilBBoy

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Posted:On what subject...Buddhism or first posters? biggrin

I think it's both. I agree with you:

 Written by: Mr Majestik


both, a religion is a way of life.




...HOWEVER!! There's always a however! Lol! I think it is MORE of a religion than a way of life, because we believe that there are different levels of rebirth (God Realm being highest, Hell Realm being lowest). And you said that once someone has achieved enlightenment, they aren't reborn. This isn't true tongue If you read a Buddhism book on reincarnation/enlightenment you will see that "Enlightenment" frees one from all the various sufferings, fears and dangers of Samsara (reincarnation/life) but doesn't stop the cycle. If you ever see someone who is truly happy and has no reason to be, they have probably achieved englightenment in a past life! biggrin Ouchhhhhhhhhhhh, RSI!!! Lol!


Time does not exist. In theory, everything with a beginning has an end. Therefore, only things with an end can have a beginning. As time has no end, it has no beginning, therefore does not exist. GO PHILOSOPHY!!!
Brittle Week was the shizz!!!

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newgabe
newgabe

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Posted:Hey LilBBoy,
I lived with Tibetan buddhists and in Buddhist communities for 7 years and studied Buddhism intensively (classes two hours a day, much reading etc. IN general, Buddhists do say that once someone has achieved enlightenment they do not need to be reborn.. in Mahayana Buddhism though there is a 'category' of beings called Bodhisattvas who can CHOOSE to be reborn in order to help others. It's a bit different... I think this 'religion or way of life' question is a bit false.. following any religion (a set of beliefs including a description of the 'cosmic order', the point of life and a description of the 'good' life) gives a way of life.. in the case of Buddhism, as least harm and as much compassion as possible...


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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LilBBoy
LilBBoy

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Posted:*nods and agrees* Yuppers, like i said just gathering views biggrin

Time does not exist. In theory, everything with a beginning has an end. Therefore, only things with an end can have a beginning. As time has no end, it has no beginning, therefore does not exist. GO PHILOSOPHY!!!
Brittle Week was the shizz!!!

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted:ditto.

enlightenment (as i understand it from studying it abit last year at school) means the cessation of desire and suffering, and as it is suffering and desire are tools which propel you into rebirth enlightenment inadvertantly cesases rebirth.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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sagetree
sagetree

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Posted:my feelings on the subject are summed up by the following:

 Written by:


At the heart of each of the world's great religions lies a transcendent ideal around which its doctrinal principles orbit. In Buddhism this truth is nibbana, the hallmark of the cessation of suffering and stress, a truth of utter transcendence that stands in singular distinction from anything we might encounter in our ordinary sensory experience. Nibbana is the sine qua non of Buddhism, the guiding star and ultimate goal towards which all the Buddha's teachings point. Because it aims at such a lofty transcendent ideal, we might fairly call Buddhism a religion.


In stark contrast to the world's other major religions, however, Buddhism invokes no divinity, no supreme Creator or supreme Self, no Holy Spirit or omniscient loving God to whom we might appeal for salvation. Instead, Buddhism calls for us to hoist ourselves up by our own bootstraps: to develop the discernment we need to distinguish between those qualities within us that are unwholesome and those that are truly noble and good, and to learn how to nourish the good ones and expunge the bad. This is the path to Buddhism's highest perfection, nibbana. Not even the Buddha can take you to that goal; you alone must do the work necessary to complete the journey:
"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge."



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pitman
pitman

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Posted:this is way to heavy for my understanding lol

DONT DO DRUGS THERE BAD FOR YOU.
SO GIVE THEM ALL TO ME AND I WILL GET RID OF THEM FOR YOU!

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LilBBoy
LilBBoy

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Posted:thats really good explanation biggrin

Time does not exist. In theory, everything with a beginning has an end. Therefore, only things with an end can have a beginning. As time has no end, it has no beginning, therefore does not exist. GO PHILOSOPHY!!!
Brittle Week was the shizz!!!

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LilBBoy
LilBBoy

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Location: Inverness, Scotland.
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Total posts: 143
Posted: Written by: pitman


this is way to heavy for my understanding lol



lol ditto


Time does not exist. In theory, everything with a beginning has an end. Therefore, only things with an end can have a beginning. As time has no end, it has no beginning, therefore does not exist. GO PHILOSOPHY!!!
Brittle Week was the shizz!!!

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AnDien
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Posted:Any true religion is a way of life. Words are nothing more than a puff of air; speak through your actions. In and of itself, religion also needs faith - it's when it's ONLY a way of life that religion loses its meaning. I hate it when people say "I'm this or that" and they know only a few customs and myths from that religion that have been around since they were kids. I've seen this happen mostly with Buddhists and Catholicism, probably because of the demographics in my city.

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monserat
monserat

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Posted:I'm pretty anti religion as I don't like the hypocrisy involved in a lot of it. (I'm not trying to inflame anyone, if you take comfort and strength from your faith then fine, just don't tell me I'm hellbound for not agreeing with you) But if i had to chose one I think Bhuddism would be it. From what I know about it (which admittedly isn't much) it's a set of ideas to live by rather than a strict dogmatic code , if you don't follow them your journey to enlightment will take longer and be harder than if you did and there's no divine punishments or rewards as such, just the ones you create for yourself.

Another view for you!


Chaos is the natural state of the universe

Some days I'm the pigeon, some days I'm the statue.

honourary militant margerine ninJAH

If it wasn't for displacement activity I wouldn't get half as much done

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted:but if everyones ultimate goal is to achieve enlightenment then prolonging that path is self punishment and enlightenment is the end goal, or reward if you like wink

oh, the one thing i dont get about Buddhism is that monks do not have sex, therefore they NEED people not to be Buddhists in order to be reborn. bit weird init?


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

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Posted:Surely one can be Buddhist without being a monk, just as one can be Catholic without being a preist.

Catholic clergy also remain celibate, but they have reproducing laypersons. Aren't Buddhists the same?


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LilBBoy
LilBBoy

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Posted:Yup! biggrin

Time does not exist. In theory, everything with a beginning has an end. Therefore, only things with an end can have a beginning. As time has no end, it has no beginning, therefore does not exist. GO PHILOSOPHY!!!
Brittle Week was the shizz!!!

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted:If buddhism is about the cessation of desire, then it would make sense that you should cease to have sex as that is a very strong desire. since some buddhists are not ceasing havng sex they are infact perpetuating their rebirth, causing themselves more suffering if you like. so if Buddhists were really committed to achieving enlightenment they would restrain themselves from having sex, and if everyone were a buddhist then humanity would cease to exist wouldn't it? it just shows that Buddhism is not for everyone, otherwise it wouldnt work.

(no doubt you'll have some kind of counter arguement for this, as all religions based in obscurity do for everything)

Catholicism is different in that God doesnt say to his followers that they shouldnt have sex because it causes suffering, in fact isnt it catholics that dont beleive in contraception?

Catholicism actively encourages having children as a way of expanding the religion whereas Buddhism aims to cease having children as a method of ceaseing suffering in the world.

Pleh, i think all religions are silly, and Buddhism, while a lot more peaceful than most, is no exception.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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wonderloey
wonderloey

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Posted: Written by: AnDien


In and of itself, religion also needs faith - it's when it's ONLY a way of life that religion loses its meaning.



That's true, but the opposite is also true.. That when its only a matter of faith, without critically examining your life to live in the most skilful manner. Although its probably rarer with the Buddhists I've met than with other religions.

I would say I believe that there's a lot of good teachings within Buddhism.. I try to follow them without necessarily being a Buddhist, but I am also doing a lot of study on it at the moment.. I don't like the idea of identifying with a religion if I don't truly believe it (as I have done when I was a lot younger with another religion).

So for me, maybe its a way of life at the moment. Or maybe just an inkling of a way of life.


"You've gone from Loey the Wonder Lesbian to everyone wondering if you are a lesbian." - Shadowman

Yesterday is yesterday. If we try to recapture it, we will only lose tomorrow.

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monserat
monserat

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Posted: Written by: Mr Majestik


but if everyones ultimate goal is to achieve enlightenment then prolonging that path is self punishment and enlightenment is the end goal, or reward if you like wink



That's what I meant Majestik. There's no supreme deity handing out the rewards and punishments, just the ones you create for yourself through your actions smile


Chaos is the natural state of the universe

Some days I'm the pigeon, some days I'm the statue.

honourary militant margerine ninJAH

If it wasn't for displacement activity I wouldn't get half as much done

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sagetree
sagetree

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Posted: Written by: Mr Majestik


If buddhism is about the cessation of desire, then it would make sense that you should cease to have sex as that is a very strong desire. since some buddhists are not ceasing havng sex they are infact perpetuating their rebirth, causing themselves more suffering if you like. so if Buddhists were really committed to achieving enlightenment they would restrain themselves from having sex, and if everyone were a buddhist then humanity would cease to exist wouldn't it? it just shows that Buddhism is not for everyone, otherwise it wouldnt work.

(no doubt you'll have some kind of counter arguement for this, as all religions based in obscurity do for everything)




- buddhism is not based in obscurity
- buddhism teaches one to refrain from committing sexual misconduct, not to refrain from sex all together.

 Written by: Winton Higgins



1. Refraining from harming living beings/practising loving kindness
2. Refraining from taking the non-given/practising generosity
3. Refraining from committing sexual misconduct/practising contentment
4. Refraining from false speech/practising truthful communication
5. Refraining from intoxicants/practising mindfulness.

These precepts take the form of voluntary, personal undertakings. They are not commandments; there is no god in Buddhism, so none to issue any.

The precepts express basic principles rather than fixed, legalistic rules that any one action falls inside or outside of. Like any non-fundamentalist ethical system, Buddhism provides us with general guiding principles while in no way relieving us of the obligation to make appropriate moral judgements in each morally significant situation we come across. Moral judgement is never a question of blindly applying a rule.

The five precepts constitute an integrated set - each precept supports the others. To know what 'sexual misconduct' means you look at the other precepts. 'Sexual misconduct', in the spirit of the precepts as a job lot, means any sexual conduct involving violence, manipulation or deceit - conduct that therefore leads to suffering and trouble. By contrast good sexual conduct is based on loving kindness, generosity, honesty, and mental and emotional clarity - conduct that has good results.

There are two 'pure types' of religion - ethnic ones and universal ones. Ethnic religion seeks to regulate many civic aspects of a particular tribe or people, and especially to regulate the biological and cultural reproduction of the tribe. It thus stipulates all sorts of rules to do with marriage, family, sex roles, bringing up children, etc. Judaism could well stand as a sophisticated example of an ethnic religion.
A universal religion, by contrast, is indifferent to ethnic civic life, transcends cultural particularism, and stands aloof from issues to do with the reproduction of the tribe. One is born into an ethnic religion, but the only real way into a universal religion like Buddhism is by personal conversion. You can convert to a universal religion from any ethnic starting point whatsoever.

Any ethnic religion contains what we might call - in our secular modern mode - a social engineering element. Social engineers, both the religious and the secular ones, make it their business to regulate relations between the sexes so that plenty of babies are born to reproduce and even expand the tribe, and to see that the children are looked after and properly inducted into the folkways and traditional (gender and other) roles of the tribe. Social engineers want to manipulate people so that their sexual energies are channelled into babymaking, and not frittered away on non-procreative sexual activity (what today's media calls 'recreational sex'). A social engineering God or state tends to promulgate laws that criminalise, stigmatise and pathologise non-procreative sex.

The Buddha was in fact a social engineer's worst nightmare. Not only did he not waste a word of condemnation on non-procreative sex (hence no list of no-no's), but he inspired thousands to ordain into celibate monasticism and so leave babymaking behind altogether. This was not because he disapproved of sex or babies, but in an era when a non-celibate usually ended up with many children to feed, clothe and house and so had little freedom or time for spiritual pursuits, celibacy made a lot of practical sense for many people with a spiritual urge. Needless to say, the choice is not nearly as stark in developed countries today, where contraception is available and earning a living is a good deal easier.



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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted:so is that saying that the desire to have sex is ok as long as its not causing suffering? confused

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

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Stone
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Posted:Hi LilBBoy, Im not a Buddhist, but Id go for way of life mainly because Buddhists dont believe in the supreme being.



Id like to ask a couple of questions on this re-birth thing. Do people have to physically die to be re born, or is it being re born when reaching a higher level of existence?



I believe that when we die, we die and that it's - game over. Any claim to physical re birth or reincarnation in a physical sense is not physically possible. We are after all just animals with big egos. Therefore, I dont think it I necessary to achieved enlightenment in a past life to be truly happy in this life. I have met plenty of transformed people who are happy. To me truely happy is being able to be present like the Dali Lama.





Mr Majestik, on the faith thing, you dont need to prove someone has achieved enlightenment.







smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted:rebirth (as i understand it) is a direct result of karma (not instant karma, thats a western interpretation). depending on how you live your life you will be reborn in a postion either closer to achieving enlightenment or further away(this is what karma does).

so as i understand it you do have to die physically to be reborn, as the karma of your previous life propelles you into rebirth, and once enlightenment is achieved you do not have any karma, and are released from the cycle of rebirth(unless you choose to be reborn so you can help others achieve enlightenment).

 Written by: stone

on the faith thing, you dont need to prove someone has achieved enlightenment.



what were you refering to? you definatly have to have faith that rebirth does exist and this life is only one of your many. this is something you cant neccissarily prove (or disprove), in the same way you cant prove or disprove that god exists. thats why i dont understand why many western people turn away from christianity to buddhism, as they both have some questionable aspects, its just that Buddhism hasnt been used for political purposes as much as christianity has.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Stone
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Posted:Thanx Mr Majestik. I believe in kama, just not the reincarnation part. You dont have to necessarily die physically to be reborn.

Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do. The effects of all deeds actively create present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain in others. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well (wiki) .

I was referring to this bit:  Written by:

Buddhism, IMO, is much less corruptable than most religions. but it still requires faith, you cant neccissarily prove someone has achieved enlightenment and wont be reborn, in the same way you cant prove people will go to heaven or hell.



On the faith thing, you can prove someone has achieved enlightenment, for example by meeting someone like the Dali Lama.

I can never understand the faith thing, because faith tends to imply a belief in a "supreme being". Call me sceptic, but I dont I dont do faith or souls or spirits or reincarnation. I dont believe heaven is anything other than the world we create for ourselves on earth. I have a theory ubblol that when Jesus healed the sick he was not healing physical illnesses. When Jesus made the blind see and the deaf hear this was an awakening of the mind to the possibilities in life, not a physical healings.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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LilBBoy
LilBBoy

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Posted: Written by: Stone


Hi LilBBoy, Im not a Buddhist, but Id go for way of life mainly because Buddhists dont believe in the supreme being.

Id like to ask a couple of questions on this re-birth thing. Do people have to physically die to be re born, or is it being re born when reaching a higher level of existence?

I believe that when we die, we die and that it's - game over. Any claim to physical re birth or reincarnation in a physical sense is not physically possible.



Hi Stone! Yes, when we die, THAT is when reincarnation occurs.

I completely agree with what you said: "Any claim to physical re birth or reincarnation in a physical sense is not physically possible." I wonder if you used this word deliberatly? You see, reincarnation (or re birth) literally means "the mind leaves the present body and enters another." So, in theory, it is almost impossible for rebirth to not be possible. If you think about it, 2,000,000 sperm a second = 2,000,000 minds a second. If i ask you "what part of the brain is the mind?", you could not answer. That is because the mind is not part of the brain, it is our soul/spirit/ethereal being. Minds function differently, but sometimes you will find minds that function similarly to each other (twins, for ex.). This is because when the mind enters one body, and the other has no mind, the mind splits and enters both bodies. This explains why twins are known to "share thoughts" and "share conditions". For example, twins are known to telepathically communicate using emotional/body language signals. And, amazingly, if one twin develops an eating disorder, there is around a 50% chance the other will do so. Again, relating to psychological similarity, as eating disorders are very often developed from psychological "overloads".

*has headache now* biggrin ubblol


Time does not exist. In theory, everything with a beginning has an end. Therefore, only things with an end can have a beginning. As time has no end, it has no beginning, therefore does not exist. GO PHILOSOPHY!!!
Brittle Week was the shizz!!!

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted: Written by: stone

On the faith thing, you can prove someone has achieved enlightenment, for example by meeting someone like the Dali Lama.



yes but just because someone says they have reached enlightenment, and have other people agree with them, doesnt neccissarily mean its true. if i were to claim to be a ninja and someone else agreed with me would that make it true?

 Written by: stone

I can never understand the faith thing, because faith tends to imply a belief in a "supreme being". Call me sceptic, but I dont I dont do faith or souls or spirits or reincarnation.



i disagree, to me 'faith' implys a belief in something that doesnt have well founded emperical evidence based on scientific method.

hence reincarnation cant really be proved, so you have to have faith to believe in it, and therefore you have to have faith to be a buddhist, unless you are just gonna cut and paste the religion to fit your needs wink


 Written by: LilBBoy


If you think about it, 2,000,000 sperm a second = 2,000,000 minds a second.



2,000,000 potential minds, but none of them ever exist, going with that it means every time a man ejaculates and no child is created 2,000,000 minds(people waiting to be reborn) perish, i dont understnad what this statement was meant to demonstrate?

 Written by: lilBBoy

If i ask you "what part of the brain is the mind?", you could not answer. That is because the mind is not part of the brain, it is our soul/spirit/ethereal being.



yes i could answer actually, if i remember my R+P class last year i *think* there were about 4 defendable postitions to that question, but i honestly cant be arsed to go look them up unless you really want me to.

 Written by: LilBBoy

Minds function differently, but sometimes you will find minds that function similarly to each other (twins, for ex.). This is because when the mind enters one body, and the other has no mind, the mind splits and enters both bodies. This explains why twins are known to "share thoughts" and "share conditions".



umm i believe they call that speculation wink


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Stone
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Posted:LilBBoy, I like the Buddhist philosophy. But, as you say "what part of the brain is the mind, you could not answer. Given that a lot of the Buddhist philosophy is dealing with self, then I dont understand re birth. So I will sit with the following view for a while:

Another view of rebirth describes the cycle of death and rebirth in the context of consciousness rather than the birth and death of the body.

Nirvana. The Buddha once said, I teach the path to immortality. As it turns out, he didnt mean, not having to die, even Christ had to die. The Buddha was saying... Samsara, the perpetual cycle of birth and death ended in Nirvana, I could never be reborn again... I would exist and not exist at the very same time, forever. I would abide in Nirvana.

Enlightenment- The Wisdom of Emptiness... The wisdom that arises from the direct experience of all phenomena being empty of independent existence.

To ask another question. What do you think phenomena being empty of independent existence means?

Mr Majestik, I agree that just but just because someone says they have reached enlightenment, and have other people agree with them, doesnt neccissarily mean its true.?

Thats why I said meet Dali Lama. I think he is coming out to Australia next year and Im going to see him. I think it would be amazing to experience his presence.

Living a life based on Faith, is like living a life waiting to win lotto.

wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Ade
Are we there yet?
Location: australia
Member Since: 14th Mar 2001
Total posts: 1897
Posted:I had the pleasure of being in an audience with the dali lama a few years ago...

if you get the chance to be in the same room as this man - meditate wow

it's amazing

ubbrollsmile


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