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Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Notions of "Inversion" and "Crossing" ?

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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:Hello all "Manos" ( neologism issued from where i live, quasi untranslatable but completely invariable wink ) !!!

Firstly, i have to prevent you that i am a french guy, which needs some answers to some poi interrogations weavesmiley .
In this case, try to be as lenient ( thanks Google for this word ... ubblol ) as you can with my written english and please don't use terms that could not be in my knowledge !!

My questions are in a first time about the concept of inversion.
I would like to know in simple words what exactly it consist in confused .
Indeed, even if i can do a inversion butterfly ( or inverted butterfly ? redface ) i have no idea of what an inverted weave ( or inversion weave ? redface ) could be !!!

Moreover, i have intend to speak about a crossed inverted weave ( similar or different to a crossover ? but inverted ? ubbloco ).

If somebody ( The ideal would be a bilingual ... biggrin ) could gives me explanations as specified a he can about these two notions ( inversion and crossing ... especially for weaves ), i would have a lot of recognition to him hug !!!

Thanks a lot for the whole reading ... and for the potential answers !!!

Topette !!! ( An other french local neologism that means " See you later", for all of you wink )


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mtbeer
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

mtbeer

ARRRR!
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 529
Posted:Methinks this post was translated from French -> Japanese -> English smile So in response:



 Written by: English->French



Une armure inverse est trs prs d'un papillon invers. Le papillon invers est galement connu comme roulement de baril de papillon et l'armure inverse est galement connue comme roulement de baril de buzzsaw. Vous pouvez apprendre l'armure inverse en isolant un buzzsaw, puis en poussant votre intrieur de mains (aprs l'un l'autre), juste comme le papillon invers.



Je ne crois pas qu'il y a une telle chose comme une armure inverse croise mais moi pourrait tre errons. Rev serait la personne demander.







 Written by: English



An inverted weave is very close to an inverted butterfly. The inverted butterfly is also known as the "butterfly barrel roll" and the inverted weave is also known as the buzzsaw barrel roll. You can learn the inverted weave by isolating a buzzsaw, then pushing your hands inside (past each other), just like the inverted butterfly.



I do not believe there is such a thing as a crossed inverted weave but I could be wrong. Rev would be the person to ask.







I love babblefish biggrin

EDITED_BY: mtbeer (1152147507)


"My skin is singed but it heals my heart and with glowing pride I'll wear my scars." -Davey Havok

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:A video is worth a thousand words...



Video au Inversion


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:

Concept of inversion can be passing crossed hands between

your hands. Simply cross your hands without Poi, for example

on your right side put your right hand over your left, now

imagine right hand passing throught the gap between those

crossend hand the short Poi will pass. You twist your wrists

throught it.



-You can invert Poi going same or opposite direction(WEave, Butterfly).



-Cross-over is spinning with hands crossed and Poi at your

sides.



-Crossed inversion is the same like inversion, crossed meen,

that hands are crossed I see(corect me someone if Im wrong).

Inversion is like cross-over between your hands.



that's it, hope it helps



light, :R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:Thanks for your answer and your video !!



 Written by:

now

imagine right hand passing throught the gap between those

crossend hand the short Poi will pass. You twist your wrists

throught it.







Sorry Richee but i don't understand totally this part ( To my mind ... problem of translation and visualisation ) !!



Concerning the crossed weave and the crossed inverted weave ... if nobody else have ideas or complete explanations ( Whenever ... ) i think a mp to Rev could be a good thing !!

EDITED_BY: Zaltymbunk (1152193226)


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:i was trying to write all this down the other day in a logical manner (but i ran into a few problems before i got as far as id hoped) , so the term inversion could be properly defined. basically (and im going off on one now....) inversions and reels are two halfs of the same family of poi moves defined by moves that happen when the poles pointing out from your hand perpendicular to the plane the poi spins in are pointing in opposite directions. if there is an overlap in these poles then it is an inversion and if there is no overlap then it is a reel...

in simple language though any move that spins between your arms has got some kind of inversion happeneing.


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:that's the definition i've always stuck to too oli.

if you get overlapping poles and both the poles are confined by a body part, its an inversion, if its only one pole at a time that is confined, its an inside.

i may get shouted at by arashi and rev for that but i don't see why it has to be any more complicated that that...


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:cole - an inside has both pole pointing in the same direction as its just like an outside...



if only one pole is confined , it is still an inversion i reckon (an example is a notcolman) this makes sense to me. as if you cross your arms once there are 3 (actually 6 as during a 3 beat weave you go from arms crossed right over left to arms crossed left over right..) possible types of inversions that can happen (one with the right poi in between your arms, one with the left poi and one with both poi between your arms) these are the three types of inversions you can get into from a 3 beat weave. from a 5beat weave (ie with arms crossed twice) you can get into 5 different types of inversions...) howvere i am sure that there is something fundamentally different from an invesion whith both poi between your arms and only one poi between your arms...


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:meditate that indeed makes more sense.

oli, you rock hug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:Frustration.

All explanations seems to be in front of my eyes but i can't understanding because i have no ideas of what are poles and overlaps in spinning terms !!!

If the reformulation of those two words ... or of the whole definition is too complicated ... and i would undertand it ... could it be possible to anyone who knows inversion, crossed inverted weave and crossed inverted butterly to give me links to videos ( It is sometime better than any words ... as have said ICoN ... and especially for a french guy ) !!

Perhaps Oli ( or another ) could, if you got time and motivation of course, make little tutorial videos of those moves and of these 6 type of inversion !!

At worse, i will follow to read again and again those precedent post, maybe i would finish to have some revelations !!

In any case, Google language tool said bullshits ... for example a weave is translated armour in "franais" ... i does not help me !!!


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Ok look on this picture




Non-Https Image Link




This is , on your right side, when right hand cross the left hand.

Now, try to let the Right Poi go from underneath, through the

gap, hole,the space between your body and hands, twist your

wrists untill you get back outside, continue on your left.



Better?



light,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:sorry for causing frustration...

when i say pole i mean this: imagine your hand spinning a poi, you know it is spinning in a plane. now imagine a line perpendicular to this plane passing through your hand, pointing away from your hand in the direction that your hand is facing. this imaginary line is a pole.

when i say that the poles over lap i mean exactly that (cant think of how to explain it more precisly without a picture, which maybe i will draw at some point)

the 6 different types of inversion that you can enter from a 3bt normal weave can be listed:

right hand leading - barrel roll, notcolman, and the inverted part of a wrong weave (maybe this needs a name??) and the same with the left hand leading.

i can make videos of all of these if that is useful.

at the moment i havnt been thinking about how this applies to stuff where the poles are not parallel and im still a bit unsure about butterflys, but i can do several types of butterfly inversion but im not sure how it all fits together....


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:Ok now i can see better !! cool
Thanks !! wink

I really thinks some videos could be really useful ( And not necessary just for me ... ) !! rolleyes

An example ... notcolman is not translatable for me and in this case a concret visual support is better than an abstract one !! ubbloco

However i haven't understood your last sentence but if you are busy at the moment no problem ... i am relatively patient ubbrollsmile !!

Topette !!!


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:ohhhhhh man i can't wait til EJC.

soon you will understand that there is still a whole lot of moves in the inside family, and once you do you'll understand that there is a very big difference between inverted and inside moves. maybe if someone brings a camera we can get them on the net! but i think oli has got the most cohesive explanations aside from the fact that a butterfly inversion isn't really what you all think it is...

either way they are fun and it doesn't really matter what they are called as long as you can lose yourself with them...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: arashi


aside from the fact that a butterfly inversion isn't really what you all think it is...



ubblol

i love you man - don't ever change ubblove

hug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand

Total posts: 1799
Posted:all this time i've been doing notcoleman5s and it turns out they are actually only boring old inversions (thanx for that vid up there, icon).

whats the difference?

thanx! a hug to whoever answers correctly, first. smile


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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GeoffonTour04
SILVER Member since Nov 2005

enthusiast
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom

Total posts: 360
Posted:is that buzzsaw inversion possible with any poi or does it rely on the sockiness of socks?

What I mean is do the strings have to touch your hands on the way through or is it possible to do completely clean? I tried it with glowsticks for a while & I couldn't get it to work


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simta
BRONZE Member since Apr 2006

simta

compfuzzled
Location: hastings, England (UK)

Total posts: 1182
Posted: Written by: oli


i can make videos of all of these if that is useful.




i def think it wud be unless someone can put some links up to already existing vids?

cos im completely compfuzzled but thts not difficult lol


"the geeks have got you" - Gayle

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Muskelunge
GOLD Member since Oct 2005

Muskelunge

member
Location: Chicago, USA

Total posts: 55
Posted:Ok. So after puzzling at this thread for a while, I've figured out a move. I'll explain it from my right-handed perspective:


During a normal 3-beat weave, after doing all three beats on the right side, my right hand is crossed over my left wrist, poised to start the first beat on the left side.

Instead of swinging the poi to the left, though, I instead swing it into the gap between my arms.

As the right hand poi swings up past my chest and face (usually--sometimes my chest and face decide to stop it if my poi are too long), my hands do a funky rolling motion to compensate for my right poi cord trying to wrap itself around my left wrist.

Towards the end of this funky rolling motion (it's a really quick motion), my left poi follows the right one up between the arms.

At this point, my hands are kind of crossed; at least, the right hand poi is to the left of the left hand poi, and still kind of trying to wrap around my left wrist.

Then the right hand poi swings down onto the left side, the left hand poi follows, and every attempt is made to resume a normal 3-beat weave.


Now, would someone please tell me what move I've just done?


Note:
When I started working out this move some 45 minutes ago, the right hand poi cord was halfway wrapped around my left wrist pretty much the whole time. It felt a lot like my previous (unsuccessful) attempts to do a barrel roll. As I did the move more, it morphed into both right and left poi cords grazing the opposite wrist the entire way through the funky rolling motion.

I also noticed that, after both poi had gone through my arms and I was about to bring the right hand poi down to the left side, if I pulled my hands apart (uncrosssing them), I ended up with a hyperloop buzzsaw. Occasionally, I could even go from this hyperloop back into the funky wrist rolling motion.

The wrist roll can also be continued for more than the two beats I described.


Again, I have tried to explain what I'm doing. Now would someone please tell me what move this is, and how it relates to "overlapping poles," "crosses," "insides" and "inversions"?


The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:You are inverting weave!



 Written by:

Shen shui

notcoleman5s..inversions ..whats the difference?







The differnce is very big. Let look on both moves deeper.



Notecoleman5 -



Is, in words of terms "Cross-over between 2 frames.".

It meens nothing more than, that this is 6 beat move

in case of



cross-over(11, L over R) -> buzzsaw(11) ->

cross-over(11, R over L)



together (222)



No inverted planes, no gap-s(negatives). In fact this

move is not as simple as it look like, cause its speed

(swapping cross-overs). Cole, Rev, Arashi, Nx?



where



Inversion -



Is, in words of terms, "Cross-follow buzzsaw, frame overlap."

It meens that this is 8 beat move, in case of



Cross-follow(3 R side) -> Buzzsaw inversion(2) ->

Cross-follow(3 L side)



together (323)



No cross-overs, just weaving and this buzzsaw wrist twist

motion that add +2 more beats.



Hop it helps and hope someone will beat my definitions,

to be better.



light, :R





-------------



ps: Omnimodus back?


POI THEO(R)IST

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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:Well ... now my hypothesis have been confirmed concerning Inverted weaves and inverted butterflies ubbidea !!!



For nearly a week, i try to imagine by practicing what could be a crossed weave ... and its alternative with inversion ... no concrete results ... for crossed weave i have found a mean to do roughly 3B at each side but with 2 manners ( I think it's normal ... once by type of arms crossed ? ) ... for crossed inverted weave no ideas !!! ubbloco



Is there somebody who could light my lantern ? confused

EDITED_BY: French_Saltimbanque (1152620949)


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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand

Total posts: 1799
Posted:hey richee, thanx heaps for your post.

unfortunately, the part of my brain that connects words to understanding is obviously presently occupied on some other matter than i am unaware of, and, alas, lets me down when push comes to shove and i attempt to make sense of your post.

but thanx! one day perhaps i will actually spin with someone that can show me. ha. smile

good times.


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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Rovo
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 544
Posted:Would this be a crossed inverted weave and if not what is it?

Crossed Inverted Weave?


Peace, Love, Circles

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:hey rovo wave



that move is a mix of a notcoleman3 and an inverted crossover (barrel roll).



not sure what is meant by a 'crossed inverted weave' but if that's it, i have no idea how or why it got that name...



can you turn it yet? devil





shen hug



notcoleman5 is fairly simple to do and only contains one inverted beat.

the rest is identical to the 5bt weave.

for the full stylistic effect, isolate the following poi on the crossover and isolate the inverted beat too, really accentuating the inverted plane smile



there's a beat-by-beat descripotion by rob over here ubbrollsmile





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rovo
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 544
Posted:Hello!

French Saltimbanque was asking what a crossed inverted weave was and so I played around and came up with that.

You know I never even tried to do this move backwards so I'm not sure if I can turn it but I will go find out right now. biggrin


Peace, Love, Circles

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:well the good news is that next week i will be staying with someone who has a video camera! so soon i will be able to post up all the basic inversions and insides, with labels, or at least capture them and upload them once i get back to texas. or perhaps we can put up some clips from the germany tech workshops...

Muskelunge... the move you described is the very move i started the thread with, which i call a 3 beat inversion. called this because the hand position which it enters the inversion from is a 3 beat (aka first degree crossover)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:Hello Arashi !!

Thanks to the vids that Rovo have recently made, now i have a better idea of what a "crossed inverted weave" could be !!

However ... if your conception of this move seems different to you ... i am interesting in all visions !!

Is it possible to also add basic crossed moves ( Especially weave ... and all of things you have in mind ) ?

A last question ... When are you coming in France to teach concept of Atomic and 3D spinning to us ... poor french poi spinners in quest of new ?!? wink


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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand

Total posts: 1799
Posted:ubbrollsmile thanx cole smile hug

happy spinning times..


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:ooooh!

i just remembered that some of the bits you were asking about are on this little video here:

http://www.colewalker.org/planesnstuff.mpg
br>
notcoleman3 @ 0:54
notcoleman5 @ 1:04
inverted 3bt weave @ 1:23

smile hug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rovo
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 544
Posted:Wow thanks for the video Cole. For some reason I thought the notcolemans were way more complicated then that. Another reason why video examples are more illuminating then text descriptions, especially with all the spinners on the forums now who don't have very good english.

Oh I figured out how to turn the "crossed inverted weave-a-ma-jig" in my video and there's 4 different ways to turn it for each direction, fwd or rev. When the left poi barrel rolls you can turn either left or right with it and when the right poi barrel rolls you can turn either left or right with it.

Arashi I can't wait to see these clips. I have some things I've been playing around with that I think could be insides.


Peace, Love, Circles

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted: Written by:

Arashi

aside from the fact that a butterfly inversion isn't really what you all think it is...







Than, tell us.



lighting,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Page: 12

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