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brittle
GOLD Member since May 2006

brittle

member
Location: leicester, uk

Total posts: 131
Posted:i am planning to make some fire fans for my d&t project 'toys and games' can anyone please help with this i have a small idea of what to do but im not to sure
help would be much apreciated
tanks in advance smile


What to do in case of fire??? LET IT BURN!

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simta
BRONZE Member since Apr 2006

simta

compfuzzled
Location: hastings, England (UK)

Total posts: 1182
Posted:well ur gonna have to be able to metal-work pretty well, id say firefans are alot harder to make than most firetoys if u look at this pic


Non-Https Image Link


its pretty difficult, but if u took this design probably alot more achievable, cos im assumin if this is a d+t project called 'toys n games' ur gcse/a-level kinda grade


Non-Https Image Link


see this design jus has singular rods with wicks joined by leather straps which are riveted into each section

i reckon tho, fire fans dont really fit into toys n games, and you should probably make some fire poi or a fire devilstick/staff cos be easier, and fit into ur project better maybe


"the geeks have got you" - Gayle

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Schitz
SILVER Member since Jan 2006

newbie
Location: Rochdale, Lancs, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 18
Posted:OOOo..this is timely...

Had some firefans made for me...like the ones in the top piccy. I have to put the kevlar on myself and was wondering if it just got wrapped straight on to the rod...or what ? theres obviously nothing to drill into, so is the only way to do it by sticking and binding with kevlar thread, like it seems to be in the pic ?


Poivert

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brittle
GOLD Member since May 2006

brittle

member
Location: leicester, uk

Total posts: 131
Posted:many thanks for the help, have talked though with my teacher and he says it is pretty much do-able. i reckon though that if i chose the other options i might not get such a good a grade, we will have to see

What to do in case of fire??? LET IT BURN!

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daniredmonds
SILVER Member since Nov 2006

stranger
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 2
Posted:hi there,

Kind of related ...... can someone explain to me how to fix the
wick onto the frames which are available on this site.
I can see how the wick hooks under the 'j' bend but how do you
fix the other end after winding round the metal??
Cheers


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ThelemicPotter
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

newbie
Location: Buffalo NY, USA

Total posts: 29
Posted:You could sew the intial wrap around the bend together, this will keep it from slipping if done right. As for the outside end, fold the edge back under and sew it tight. You can, instead of sewing the inner edge, wrap a length of wire around the j hook and spear both ends through the kevlar for a few wraps, twisting it together and burying it before the last wrap.

I make fans out of steel and aluminum pieces you can get at a hardware store, 1/2" wide slats, 4 or 6 feet long, bolted together and cut down. The first ones I did were steel, trapazoid shaped, 5 fingers, 3 feet wide, monsters that weigh a couple of pounds each. I cut the slats to size, drill out the connections and bolt them. They've been excellent training toys, they make you strong. Going to go and see if I can get someone to weld a ring in so I can spin them.

Just finsihing a new pair of folding slat fans, aluminum, 4 fingers decending in size from 2.5 foot to 10 inches. Folded they look like machetes the 4 wicks staggered present a mean looking torch, opened they are quite graceful. Used a much longer bolt then the static fans and seperated each slat with a washer, then a locking washer under the nut. Still not happy with the chain length, ensure it's long enough to comfrotably put your fingers in the vertex. The slats have a tendency to "back cross" when folded, the heads don't touch each other, but that can be delt with in practice.

Both sets of fans have 2 holes drilled in the tips of the fingers, with wire being used to fold the wicks in place. I have not had any isuess with loose wicks, and the steel fans are capable of pretty heavy, wick down, impacts with no issues.

I really love what my steel fans have done for me. It takes a lot of effort to use them, even more to do it with finesse and control, there's a lot of stuff they can't be used for, but once I get something down on those, doing it on a lighter pair is nothing.


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squid
BRONZE Member since Apr 2007

squid

sanguine
Location: sur, USA

Total posts: 382
Posted:ooh. Thanks for the ideas. I've been itching to make a set of fire fans, preferably folding. This gives me a few ideas for construction.

Anyone have an interesting way to include springs in folding fans? Ive seen Sage's and one's by Firestuff, but no one else really seems to have tackled spring-loaded fans.


"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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Charlie Fox
PLATINUM Member since Jun 2006

Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ, New Zealand

Total posts: 156
Posted:Originally Posted By: squidooh. Thanks for the ideas. I've been itching to make a set of fire fans, preferably folding. This gives me a few ideas for construction.

Anyone have an interesting way to include springs in folding fans? Ive seen Sage's and one's by Firestuff, but no one else really seems to have tackled spring-loaded fans.

There are two (easy) ways to include springs (as far as my testing got me).

The sage fan uses whats called a torsion spring, it's essentially a length of spring wire with a couple of loops in the center, if manufactured with the wires out of the loop coming straight away from each other it will always return to this position when no opposing force exists.
So if you manufacture it as above, and attach the bottom two struts of your fans to the spring, they will always want to be flat (open). All that remains is to construct your fan as per the typical method for a folding fire fan, with chains or leather working as tethers/keepers to stop the struts from opening to far.

Here is a page i found showing how to make your own torsion spring;
http://www.rctankcombat.com/articles/torsion-springs/


As for the Fire Stuff fan, the spring and tether is combined in one assembly, but as for how to do that, well whats the fun in telling you that wink

The issues with the torsion method is that the spring only acts on two of the blades, meaning it opens outside struts first, then inside, and when closed if you are using a chain as tether/keepers it is going to rattle around.

The combined spring/tether method means that all the blades open at the same time, however to get it all to work nicely is a lot of testing as how strong your springs are dictates where exactly on the blade they have to be positioned to get the optimum opening action. Placing them high on the blade means the spring gains more leverage, however the longer spring is under less tension when closed meaning it wont open so well, however too far down whilst increasing the tension on the spring, means the spring has less leverage and also won't open so well.

What you see in the HoP/Fire stuff shop is the Mk. 8 Design, the result of around 12 months testing and field trials. The Mk. 9 is going to include a finger spin ring and slightly stiffer springs as the current springs are soft enough that as the fan spins it will start to close due to the centripetal force.

One thing you need to consider if you have never used a spring loaded fan is that whilst they open breezily, and even keep themselves open while performing, closing them is not so easy, you cannot simply flick them closed, you need to use a body part (like an arm or a leg) to squeeze them closed. It's a factor for some performers who like to switch between an open and a closed fan during the performance.

Wow, this got big fast. I hope somewhere in this you find some information that is useful to you, otherwise i've just been ranting to myself, spending too much time in the workshop not talking to people me thinks... crazy


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)

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squid
BRONZE Member since Apr 2007

squid

sanguine
Location: sur, USA

Total posts: 382
Posted:Man, Charlie, I don't know how you found me here and on Hoop City, but I assure you Im taking it all to heart. Thanks for the tips on spring positioning. I'll have to keep it in mind for later. My original concept was to put little torsion springs at the base where the spines join to a ring. The spines themselves I wanted to use hollow ali tubes and run a steel cable through them with a finger pull so that I could pull it closed with little to no visible aid, but the fans would have a static open position.

However, when I heard that you all were adding a spin ring though to the new version, I think you kind of took my heart. smile When will the Mk9 be ready for production? Oh, and are you going to be working out a distribution agreement with HoP? That would be super convenient!


"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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Charlie Fox
PLATINUM Member since Jun 2006

Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ, New Zealand

Total posts: 156
Posted:I found you on hoopcity through my shops user tracking, i can see what sites the user originates from, and occasionally i like to check them out and make sure only nice things are being said about me wink

As for HoP, well I've been lurking in these forums on and off for the last 5 or 6 years.

Back to the topic at hand, i see what you are saying about the cable design, I've been toying with some ideas along those lines on paper for the last couple of months, but using a lever/switch to change the fan between open and closed, your idea is definitely viable, however depending on where the cable comes out of your tubes, if for example it's 150mm from the base, depending on how you rig it, your looking at between 115mm & 470mm (half a meter nearly) of cable that needs to be pulled to make it fold closed, excuse the metric terms ;), but essentially i think it would be hard to hide that much of a hand or body movement, not to mention to make the cable happy some kind of pulley/bearing/casing system would need to be involved or it will bind in the ally and slowly cut it's way down the pipe...

The Mk.9 i'm hoping to release in December, but I can't say for sure, I might be optimistic to think that, still much testing to be done, the MK. 9 beta works great, but the trouble is it's too well balanced, you can't really generate movement by oscillation of your hand as in normal finger spun fans, you have to flick it with your thumb... the upside though of the balance means once you start it spinning it will keep going for 4 or 5 spins without a further push meaning some pretty cool tricks are possible, maybe i should put a little video up... But basically it's one of those things i have to decide to stick with status quo and make it top heavy so it can be spun like a normal fan, or try tell everyone having it balanced is better to use... I know it's not possible to please everyone, but i can't always just please myself wink

And yes, HoP is now distributing my fan;
http://www.homeofpoi.com/shop/productDetails/Folding-Fans-with-spring-action


Exciting times in the world of Fire Stuff grin


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)

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squid
BRONZE Member since Apr 2007

squid

sanguine
Location: sur, USA

Total posts: 382
Posted:Sounds sweet! 141 USD is going take me a bit of time to save, but Im putting a dollar in the piggybank right now. grin

"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:hmm i would like to get stuck into folding fans however i've never felt comfortable with the way the handles are implemented. cpjfox, you get good marks also for separating each 'finger' of the fire fans in such a way as to allow 2 fans to intertwine fingers.
The attempt to separate fingers evenly is the best attempts I have seen... some attempts have only used leather or chain.
prcing is also acceptable, given the going rate that we're used to.

on the negatives, again the handle usually digs into my palms so I really appreciate a smooth, rounded point for buzzsaws and catches. The popularisation of rings set further into the middle of the fans also makes me expect to be able to use those unique moves on other fans, so that would be a disappointment for me also - this would be the main reason why i am super keen on ordering a version with a ring. lastly, the inability to close the fans subtly a la tai chi movements is offset by the reality that folding fans are somewhat of a rarity anyways.

overall, the advent of these folding fans are a valuable addition to the hop shop and will really open up torch spinning/body tracing possiblities into fan movements, however for guys like me who are used to buzzsaws and smooth handles, I am waiting on the burger with the lot.

Considering that fans a large part of the things i want to develop on, all this information about cjpfox's fans are big news indeed smile
nice one mate!


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Charlie Fox
PLATINUM Member since Jun 2006

Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ, New Zealand

Total posts: 156
Posted:You Can thank Malcolm & Chris for the pricing, they used to be NZ$300 for a set, they convinced me to give the construction and pricing a re think to bring the price more in line with the likes of the Gora fan. So thanks to scouring the globe for cheaper components the price was able to move down substancially, some of the fasteners i was paying NZ$1.22 for i now pay NZ$0.07, so it's net positive for everyone, i don't mind buying things in the thousands any more wink.

The base point of the Fire Stuff fan is 10mm from the center of the base bolt, or 7mm from the edge of the bolt, +/- 1.5mm for machining tolerances.

I could bring it a little closer, but i guess i prefer the look and the additional material for strength, i have considered moving it to be pretty much flush with the bolt assembly, but i'd then need to ensure my machinists were 100% accurate, and unfortunately I haven't found someone who can pull that off yet, and it's not really reasonable to expect 100% accuracy from a human after all now is it?

I couldn't quite follow what you were saying about the rings. Are you saying the rings set further into the fan (i.e. centered/balanced) is a good thing? Or you prefer them closer to the base (i.e. mostly top heavy)

In an ideal world i could offer both types, but then things just start getting complicated (and complicated = expensive). As it stands, a finger spin capable fan is probably going to have a price somewhere around NZ$250 (for the balanced type) - NZ$275 (for a top heavy type) making it by far the most expensive folding fan on the globe when a gora sits around NZ$180/190 at the moment.

A top heavy fan is going to be more expensive as i have to make some fairly drastic changes to them as the current springs are simply not strong enough to take a fast spin without closing up, so i either need to run two springs, or 1 stronger spring, assuming its possible as the max OD of the spring is 3mm i'm already nearing the strongest spring available that size anyway...

Thanks for the feed back smile

EDITED_BY: cpjfox (1253406893)


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:Originally Posted By: Charlie FoxI couldn't quite follow what you were saying about the rings. Are you saying the rings set further into the fan (i.e. centered/balanced) is a good thing? Or you prefer them closer to the base (i.e. mostly top heavy)
If it came down to a choice between a ring at the base (the top heavy option) or a ring further up the central 'finger', it would make more sense to go with a ring at the base, from an ease-of-movement point of view. It would provide a rounded grip for indian-club style movements and I also catch most of my fan-throws into the palm of my hands, so it would make throws alot more elegant. Also, a ring at the base would provide a more stable base to hold the fan without inadvertantly folding them slightly inwards.

Originally Posted By: Charlie FoxA top heavy fan is going to be more expensive as i have to make some fairly drastic changes to them as the current springs are simply not strong enough to take a fast spin without closing up, so i either need to run two springs, or 1 stronger spring, assuming its possible as the max OD of the spring is 3mm i'm already nearing the strongest spring available that size anyway...

Thanks for the feed back smile
Yes, I imgine that introducing a ring at the base will cost alot of effort to do - however the better contact with the palm of the hand will help against the fans closing up.
Charlie, It's uncommon to have direct dialogue with an equipment designer, so it's been a privilege to know your thoughts on aspects of the fan construction. I understand that it's unrealistic to put everyone's suggestions into action.
Cheers,
b


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Charlie Fox
PLATINUM Member since Jun 2006

Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ, New Zealand

Total posts: 156
Posted:awe shucks blush I'm just an ordinary guy doing a heroes work, thats all wink

My thoughts on ring placement were either balanced kind of like
(where | represents the centre of balance and O represents the ring and (o) represents the base bolt area)

Centered/Balanced
[WICK]------|-O------(o)

Or top heavy
[WICK]------|------O-(o)

But your suggestion is

[WICK]------|--------(o)O
or there abouts?

The issue with placing a ring like that at the base is that unless it was removable/optional it would completely prevent someone from holding the fan in a traditional (e.g. Tai Chi) manner. This is why both of my concepts have the ring set inside the design.

I would need a spring assy approx 3 times stronger to make it practical also for the clubb swinging movements, unless it is your intention to club swing with them closed? (which as i write it makes a helluva lot more sense now haha)

In any case, in a week i will be producing the next batch for the HoP shelves just in time for Christmas, and i will be enclosing a finger spring prototype for their consideration as well as my and the community's suggestions on how they should be, they as the retailer may have the final say on the matter though.

Thanks very much for your input, Fire Fans are not a very common prop in NZ/Auckland, so it's hard to get a lot of feed back from my community, and perhaps due to most of the Auckland users also being close friends i don't receive the full unadulterated feed back, they may go easy on me, i'm still waiting eagerly to see the first review they get on the HoP shop.


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:my first priority on a toy's construction is flexibility - a toy that allows me to execute the widest range of movements is what appeals the most.
To be honest, a ring at any point along the middle 'finger' of the fan will allow for buzzsaw movements. To me, a ring at the hinge would have the benefits of torch/club style movements (allowing for a wider range of closed fan moves, which would really show off the opening mechanism when it's used) and a surer contact with my palm for wrist intensive movements like a 3 beat.
The benefit of placing a ring toward the centre of balance would be where rotations along the ring's axis need to be tight (eg catching in a waistwrap position, between-the-legs moves, buzzsaws in crowded environments) Seeing as these situation don't really cover most of what I like to do with fans, I don't see a ring at the centre as being as useful as a ring set at the hinge.
I recognise that a hinge-ring would cost a lot of change... Ultimately, I would be happy for any ring at all - I'd rather the cheapest option implentated, because I get so excited when I see fans from HOP (there's quite a few in melb whom never post on HoP..) and that would lower the barrier for people to aquire one.
also, thanks for treating my feedback with respect, it must take a lot of patience to deal with directly discuss these things!


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Charlie Fox
PLATINUM Member since Jun 2006

Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ, New Zealand

Total posts: 156
Posted:Hmmm,

I see what your saying (i think). Essentially a finger spin ring would be 'nice', but what would be really helpful is a ring at the base to allow for a more positive grip during club style maneuverer.

If the ring was added not for the purpose of a finger spin, but for the increase in grip. i can see a way to do this that would not prevent one from holding it ala tai chi, but would probably prevent it from being used to finger spin.

Can't really draw it here, but you could picture it as ring that encloses the base bolt rather being attached below it, essentially when the fan is open the ring will be mostly covered by the blades of the fan, but when the fan is closed the ring will protrude past the closed blades of the fan.

I don't think it would be suitable for such a design to be the norm, but it could do well as an optional extra/upgrade.

I'll try remember to post any updates here. feel free to hassle me in a month or so ;o)

Check out my gallery for some pics of the fans getting built up smile


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)

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Charlie Fox
PLATINUM Member since Jun 2006

Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ, New Zealand

Total posts: 156
Posted:Just thought i would drop a quick update on the progress of the finger spinning fire fans.

They have a planned release date of 1st March 2010. (I'm fairly Sure HoP plan to stock them straight away smile )

The design is very similar to the current fan style, with the only changes being the addition of a finger spin ring (obviously wink ) and stiffer springs to fight the inertia that simply causes the current fan to close itself.

So great news i think, the price is going to be fairly close to the original and they work fantastically, and as far as my research shows they are NOT a world first, but they are a new way of tackling the problems associated with the folding spin ring design!

That said, if anyone does know of such a thing existing I'd love to know lest i look like a muppet parading the world first hat when they aren't wink

Future changes planned include the addition of a 'hotted' up version that includes dome nuts on all bolts and black powder coated or anodized blades.

And of course the 7 blade edition which is currently still undergoing testing (looking good so far though)

Once they are released i might make a new thread to talk a little more about them rather than just hi-jacking this one wink

EDITED_BY: Charlie Fox (1266085743)
EDIT_REASON: Discovered they are not a world first afterall.


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)

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squid
BRONZE Member since Apr 2007

squid

sanguine
Location: sur, USA

Total posts: 382
Posted:A collapsible fan, spring loaded, with a ring for finger spins. As far as I know only you and Sage have tackled this product.

Her's are on Sangre del Sol: http://sangredelsol.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=3819573
br>
Its the type of spring she uses that creates the ring, so Im very interested to see where your design differs, because I like the leaf springs you use. Its a bit of a cleaner look.


"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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Charlie Fox
PLATINUM Member since Jun 2006

Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ, New Zealand

Total posts: 156
Posted:hmmm, i shall have to remove the world first hat... well it felt nice while it was on wink

World second doesn't have the same feel to it... Well i still have the world first combination of spring and tether i guess.


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)

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Charlie Fox
PLATINUM Member since Jun 2006

Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ, New Zealand

Total posts: 156
Posted:folding finger spin fan updates here from now on;

http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/908127.html#Post908127


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)

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