Forums > Social Chat > 70k or 13k what seems like more to you?

Login/Join to Participate

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I found this Airman's response to the Washington Times -- it should be printed in all newspapers across America. Especially now when the President is calling up more Reserves and National Guardsman. Get this response out to everyone you know. It's time the Jane Fonda's & Shaun Penn's of this country wise up and support the troops that defend them.


--- MILITARY PAY ARTICLE ---
On 12 Nov, Ms Cindy Williams (from the Laverne and Shirley TV show) wrote a piece for the Washington Times, denouncing the pay raise(s) coming servicemembers' way this year -- citing that the stated 13% wage increase was more than they deserve. A young airman from Hill AFB responds to her article below. He ought to get a bonus for this!

Ms Williams: I just had the pleasure of reading your column, "Our GIs earn enough" and I am a bit confused. Frankly, I'm wondering where this vaunted overpayment is going, because as far as I can tell, it disappears every month between DFAS (The Defense Finance and Accounting Service) and my bank account. Checking my latest leave and earnings statement (LES), I see that I make $1,117.80 before taxes. After taxes, I take home $874.20. When I run that through Windows' Calculator, I come up with an annual salary of $13,413.60 before taxes, and $10,490.40 after. I work in the Air Force Network Control Center (AFNCC), where I am part of the team responsible for the administration of a 5,000-host computer network. I
am involved with infrastructure segments, specifically with Cisco Systems equipment. A quick check under jobs for Network Technicians in the Washington, D.C. area reveals a position in my career field, requiring three years experience with my job. Amazingly, this job does NOT pay $13,413.60 a year, nor does it pay less than this. No, this job is being offered at $70,000 to $80,000 per annum. I'm sure you can draw the obvious conclusions. Also, you tout increases to Basic Allowance for Housing and Basic Allowance for Subsistence (housing and food allowances, respectively) as being a further boon to an already overcompensated force. Again, I'm curious as to where this money has gone, as BAH and BAS were both slashed 15% in the Hill AFB area effective in January 00. Given the tenor of your column, I would assume that you have NEVER had the pleasure of serving your country in her armed forces. Before you take it upon yourself to once more castigate congressional and DOD leadership for attempting to get the families in the military's lowest pay brackets off AFDC, WIC, and food stamps, I suggest that you join a group of deploying soldiers headed for AFGHANISTAN, I leave the choice of service branch up to you. Whatever choice you make, though, opt for the SIX month rotation: it will guarantee you the longest possible time away from your family and friends, thus giving you full "deployment experience. "As your group prepares to board the plane, make sure to note the spouses and children who are saying good-bye to their loved ones. Also take care to note
that several families are still unsure of how they'll
be able to make ends meet while the primary
breadwinner is gone -- obviously they've been squandering the vast piles of cash the DOD has been
giving them.

Try to deploy over a major holiday; Christmas and
Thanksgiving are perennial favorites.

And when you're actually over there, sitting in a DFP
(Defensive Fire Position, the modern-day foxhole),
shivering against the cold desert night, and the
flight sergeant tells you that there aren't enough
people on shift to relieve you for chow, remember
this: trade whatever MRE meal-ready-to-eat) you manage
to get for the tuna noodle casserole or cheese
tortellini, and add Tabasco to everything. This gives
some flavor.

Talk to your loved ones as often as you are permitted;
it won't nearly be long enough or often enough, but take what you can get and be thankful for it.

You may have picked up on the fact that I disagree
with most of the points you present in your op-ed
piece.
But, tomorrow from KABUL, I will defend to the death
your right to say it.

You see, I am an American fighting man, a guarantor of
your First Amendment rights and every other right you
cherish. On a daily basis, my brother and sister
soldiers worldwide ensure that you and people like you
can thumb your collective nose at us, all on a salary
that is nothing short of pitiful and under conditions
that would make most people cringe. We hemorrhage our
best and brightest into the private sector because we
can't offer the stability and pay of civilian
companies. And you, Ms Williams, have the gall to say
that we make more than we deserve?

Rubbish!

A1C Michael Bragg, Hill AFB AFNCC"


It is odd how some hate the very people that are willing to keep them free. NO WAR this and NO WAR that make me sick. There has yet to be a war and they are already protesting. People picketing recruiting offices, trying to stop people from going in. It is like blockaiding the Police, firefighters and EMTs from doing their jobs. People like this make me want to just quit and let everyone and their mom get squished, but if I did that then someone would start bitching about why I didn't do anything. I guess double standerds are everywhere.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete Topic

Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Sweetheart, you know I love you, so I know you are going to listen to me.

People have every right to protest, and now, before it starts, is the best time to protest. I don't hold out much hope, but in order to prevent something you must do it before it starts.

My personal reasons for not wanting war is that I don't want you going anywhere. My other reasons are that I don't think enough time has been spent in attempting a non-military solution.

As for the article/letter you have quoted. It raises an interesting idea in my mind, maybe if they paid soldiers more, governments would not see them as so expendable, and would be far less willing to send in the troops. What you do is important, and it should also be an absolute last resort.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Yes, they do have the right to protest. I feel that it is wrong though, to protest the very people who have sworn to keep you safe.

To speak out against the military is like speaking out against the rescue services.

Lets picket the firefighters out in Canberra for letting those fires destroy those homes and killing those people. There was absolutely nothing that the firefighters could have done but the masses dont care.

Doesnt that sound stupid? Wrong? Hell it is wrong for me to even bring that up, but it gets the point across.

All they want to do is put the blame on someone and the most convenient is the people who work to keep them safe.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

Puk
Puk

Sweet talented nutter
Location: Brisbane Oz
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2002
Total posts: 2615
Posted:Sorry guy's it's pretty crappy! . Some people will never understand . And i think george bush is a redneck that want's war (nothing else but!).

that shrewd and knavish sprite

Called Robin Good Fellow ; are you not he that is frighten of the maidens of the villagery - fairy

I am the merry wander of the night -puk

Delete

Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:They picket against you because it looks good on camera and makes a statement. They picket outside you bases, cos it is easier than forming a picketline around George W Bush.

Some of them picket because they feel they have been unable to stop they ones making the orders, so they will stop the ones carrying them out.

They picket because they don't believe this action will make them safe, rather they think it will bring more danger.

I honestly do understand what you are going through. You believe in what you are doing, you have to. You feel demonised, and you feel unappreciated. But you have to understand that people disagree with this course of action, some of them so strongly that they would throw themselves in front of a tank for it. You cannot expect to seek appreciation there, these people do not have the energy or inclination for it. Their energy is going into fighting for their own cause in the only way they know how. They have to believe in what they are doing as well.

I wish I could provide you with an easy answer. I can't. Remember once when we talked about how sometimes there is more than one truth? This is one of those times. Or to put it another way, there is more than one theory about what has happened and what will happen here.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Delete

Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok Raymund, I'm pretty pissed with "little johnny howard" for blindly following the US on this one. Especially, as it's on top of a protracted drought, devastating bushfires, and there are a lot of other environmental and social problems facing Australia at present. So, I'll have a vent.

True, the military deserved to be paid well. I have no problem that, fair enough. However, in scaling up for a war a lot of money is diverted from health, education and other "essential" services. So, to many people this impending war (invasion) just seems like a stupid and unnecessary waste of human lives, as well as money.

I don't see the US as a defender. Defending wot? The right to attack another country for oil? To me it looks more like an INVASION. An attack on another country, for loot. Now, don't ya be giving me any of the Bush crap about "axis of evil" and "smoking guns" bullshit? An invasion, is an invasion. So, sorry no accolades for attacking another country just to secure US energy sources. Suggest the US would be better off spending it's bucks on alternative energy sources.

quote:To speak out against the military is like speaking out against the rescue services.How so Ray? Rescue services try to help people; not kill, maim and destroy em. Most of the Australian fire fighters are volunteers, and you don't see them winging about wages. No siree, them's real heroes, not mercenaries.

Look, it's not personal. I suspect most of the people who are campaigning against this war, are not necessarily campaigning against the military (well, perhaps a little bit, but only by association). It's just that the US is the aggressor, the invader, the attacker in this one. And if ya go in, then I think we are all stuffed. The oil fires alone, will be enough to stuff the environment for the next 50 years, bringing more droughts, flood and who knows wot.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:that really sucks man, i know it isnt nice not to be paid what you deserve wether it be based on knowlegde and or skills.
gonna leave it there, wish you well man.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

Delete

Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, you are confusing the issue of pay and Iraq. Although I would now agree that Iraq is being uncooperative and that Saddam has to go, I am not so enthusiastic about the idea of a war.

Having said that, that in no way has anything to do with the fact that there are U.S. servicemen and women whose families are on food stamps. I find that wrong. Sadly wrong.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

Evil Biscuit
member
Location: here
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 59
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Ivan Newton(grubiln):
i think george bush is a redneck that want's war (nothing else but!). DAMN STRAIGHT!!!!!


There is no right and wrong... only fun and boring

Delete

poiaholic22
member

Member Since: 22nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 531
Posted:Raymund,the anti-war movement as far as I know is not an attack on the armed services but on the crooked government whose motives are far from keeping the American people safe.I admire your passion to protect me and mine as well as you and yours but aren't we in greater threat from North Korea or the all too forgotten Osama Bin Laden.To many see this war to be about oil than about peace and they have good reason to.

Also about the pay.Is it okay for anyone to have to live on food stamps?I would have to say that if you want to vent on someone then maybe it should be on the stupid little man in the White House.Unemployment is on the rise,the stock market is in freefall and the deficit is increasing.On top of that GOVERNMENT agencies are already predicting it will get worse if we do go to war.Lots of people are gonna be on food stamps if something isn't done about the economy very soon.Also am I mistaken in thinking that some of the taxes that I and so many others pay help to fund the armed forces.Now do you want to talk about unappreciated?


Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Stone, thus far I have yet to see combat. Thank heavens. What I have done, is trained, sponserd Toys for Tots, rebuilt bikes for Japanesse kids who dont have any, brought food for Tsmoin (SP, children on Guam) children, gave money out of my pocket so that they could get glasses. I have helped rebuild houses and build whole new ones. In thailand we filled 2 18 wheeled trucks full of food for needy children.

So far in my military carrer I have done nothing to harm anyone, I have saved more lives than taken. The military, in peace time, does alot of good. Even in war time they do good. Food drops, things like that.


Mike your right and I did not clarify why I was saying what I did. What I said after the post was to go along with quote: Get this response out to everyone you know. It's time the Jane Fonda's & Shaun Penn's of this country wise up and support the troops that defend them.
I was calling the picketers outside the recruiting offices people like Jane Fonda and Shaun Penn. If you have beef over what Bush is doing thats fine. Hell I have beef too, I want to go visit the woman I love and he isnt helping matters.

The people who stand out in front of the White House are picketing the pending war like they should. Taking the picket line to the recruiting office is wrong.

Is this souly about oil? No its not. Could Saddam reach us with chemical weapons? Not by using a missle. He could use other methids of getting it to America. Secondly what about Isrial, he can already reach out and touch them, all he has got to do is put some nasty stuff on the warhead and POOF there goes half of Jerusilem!


My sister is on foodstamps, is that cool? No. Nobody should have to be on foodstamps. Sometimes it is needed, and other times it is abused. People who server their country should be taken better care of, that is what the responce is about. She said that we got paid enough to do our job, it is odd how a millionaire can say that 13k a year is enough, I would be she spends 13k a month!


One last thing Stone, are the Brittish Fire Fighters mercinaries because they complain about their pay?

(I was using that as an example and only to get a point across about picketing the wrong people. It was not an attack on the firefighters of Australia.)


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:ya want to talk about crap wages? I graduated from college with a BS in biology. I have over three years of "on the job" lab experience and my possition is classified as "Lab Tech II". I work with/for the military (civilian subcontracted). I, same as you, am working to make the world a safer place (which I am not allowed to go into much detail about yet), at some (relatively small by comparison) risk to my personal safety. Yet I only take home $1185 per month (refers to windows calculator and federal poverty guidlines) lets see, that's 14,220 per year, and according to federal guidlines, with a wife and child, I would be WELL BELLOW the poverty level ($14,630).

Why should a college graduate with good grades and plenty of job experience be struggling (and unable) to support a family on his own? OK, so the government would give me food stamp, that is small comfort. Oh, sure, I guess I could "simply" get a differnt job. Yea right, ever tried to find a job in a super specialized field? I "could" get a better job if one were available. You, Ray, on the other hand, realy ARE stuck where you are till the government decides to let you leave.

I, like you, get paid by the government. If I went to the private sector I could make four to ten times as much (and so could you, as a mercinary). But we are stuck were we are, for one reason or another. So it is fun work, so we both "voluntarily" took the assignment, so what? Is the work we do so much less important that we should get paid so much less? I am sure we both get free medical care (good thing too, since we are risking some amount of bodily harm). I don't ask to be rich, I just ask to be paid as much as my friends who never even went to college, yet are able to make 27,000 per year. What is up with that?

I sympathize with you Ramund, and I think it is stupid the way some people try to attack the very people who protect them from harm. It is not the military who decides to go kill, it is not the military who sends itself to war. It is the people of the USA, and government (president, congress) and the agressor nations and terrorists who chose that path. So, what good does it do to attack the military? And why should the families of those we put in harms way have to struggle just to live day to day. Yet there are people sitting at home in their cofortable chairs, who have never been shot at, or seen a shot fired in anger, who write punishing editorials. And I'll bet those same people make substantialy more than we do.

I've been shot at by evil minded people (This is unrelated to the curent topic so I will say no more about it here. Luckily most drunk people can't shoot strait) on more than one occation, it isn't a fun experience. And, I think if getting shot at, while keeping America safe, is a part of your job, your family should at least be living above the poverty line. Am I right? I don't like violence in any form. But I am not going to be stupid enough to think that it can ALWAYS be avoided. If a person or nation just gives up, the result is often total destructon or slavery. Fighting back is, in my humble opinion, the lesser of two evils. I do wish and pray for peace and understanding. I do know that co-existence is not always possible though .


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

Delete

Magickal_Kaleidoscope
member
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Member Since: 28th Dec 2002
Total posts: 119
Posted:war is bad , killing is bad,
America is not defending themselves they are attacking for leisure it should be stopped but none in the UN are brave enough to stand up 2 them and say no.
it is sad America is exploiting poor country's and stopping them from getting rich but then i guess the rest of the western world isnt much better john howard is being g.w.b's little puppet.


Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Thank you Santana for backing me up on this one.

This post isnt about war, if you want to talk about that, go to the War in Iraq thread.

It is about the rude people who hate on those who are willing to serve them.

Start your own I hate GWB post if you need to.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

poiaholic22
member

Member Since: 22nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 531
Posted:I hope you have not mistaken my reply as agreeing with the servicemen being overpaid.13k is bulls**t!I knew the military branches were paid pretty poorly but I didn't know it was that bad.I remember reading an article that was kind of to the same effect.In it the journalist talked about a certain baseball player who makes 25 mil a year and how if you combined the salaries of all the emergency workers involved with the rescue efforts at the WTC they couldn't even come close to that number.IT ISN'T RIGHT.

Just a thought about the protesting at recruiting offices.Could it be that some of those who are doing this have families and jobs and can't afford to protest in D.C. everyday?Could it be their way of drawing attention to their cause?It is like they say "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it,does it make a sound?"


Delete

Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:I was reading "stupid white men" by Mike Moore today. It was talking about how airline pilots, as their starting salary, get similar amounts (about 13K-15K). It is only recently that one airline, after much strike action, was persuaded to award their pilots 20K starting salaries. Considering the salaries of airline cabin crew are 17K approx...

The pilots are also expected to pay for uniforms and other expenses out of their own pockets, making the take home pay of a pilot owning 13K, around 9K gross. When one pilot with a particular airline had to get food stamps to support his family, the airline issued an edict saying that any other pilot who did would lose their job. All about the image of the company.

Well, lets just say the world doesn't seem to have figured out a great way of valuing the roles people perform in society.

[ 01. February 2003, 21:39: Message edited by: Rozi ]


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:If you can afford to drive to the local recuriting office, then you can afford to drive to city hall or something like that.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

poiaholic22
member

Member Since: 22nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 531
Posted:True but would it have the same effectiveness?

Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:No, it only serves to make people like me angry. Who are they trying to protest, the government or the military? Who really writes the orders?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

poiaholic22
member

Member Since: 22nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 531
Posted:I understand what you are saying.I would hope they are trying to protest the right people but in this day and age,who knows?I would say just try not to let it bother you too much.At this point what can you do to stop it?

Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well short of shooting them all in the butt with rocksalt, not much.

Protest the protesters?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

Kev
member
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Member Since: 4th Jan 2003
Total posts: 83
Posted:Yeah 13k is total bullshit. Anyone who risks their life in the service of their country, be it firefighters or soldiers, needs to be paid a fair price for the job they do. Protesting against the military is just plain wrong too - ever heard the phrase 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'? The military is a gun and the government pulls the trigger.

But anyway I'll stop there since we all seem to be in agreement about this


- Honk if you love peace and quiet!

Delete


Similar Topics

Using the keywords [70k 13k] we found the following similar topics.
1. Forums > 70k or 13k what seems like more to you? [21 replies]

     Show more..