Forums > Social Discussion > Will humans ever evolve?
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Posted:
This point is probably widely discussed but it occured to me today that the human race may never improve through evolution.
Evolution occurs through survival of the fittest as more efficient mutations in genes are passed on to the next generation but looking at today in no way does a person have to be fit or efficient in the world to reproduce and pass on genes. In this way many bad conditions are being passed on and are becoming so greatly abundant in populations that evolution is just taking a swing in the wrong direction.
How will the human race ever adapt to ever changing conditions if the dense population we have is ever increasing without the best genes being passed on?
If anyone has something to say on this I'd really appreciate it. Cheers, Chimney.
This point is probably widely discussed but it occured to me today that the human race may never improve through evolution.
Evolution occurs through survival of the fittest as more efficient mutations in genes are passed on to the next generation but looking at today in no way does a person have to be fit or efficient in the world to reproduce and pass on genes. In this way many bad conditions are being passed on and are becoming so greatly abundant in populations that evolution is just taking a swing in the wrong direction.
How will the human race ever adapt to ever changing conditions if the dense population we have is ever increasing without the best genes being passed on?
If anyone has something to say on this I'd really appreciate it. Cheers, Chimney.
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Posted:
starts drinking loads of water.. 
hmmm....maybe I'm too late for this one.
Interesting theory on the water thing though, but how is all of this oestrogen getting into the water supply? Through human waste? In which case would it not be filtered out? or am i just being very silly.....
*prepares herself for humiliation*
Written by: Birgit
For women, the average bra size has gone up, apparently pretty much for the same reasons.
starts drinking loads of water.. hmmm....maybe I'm too late for this one.
Interesting theory on the water thing though, but how is all of this oestrogen getting into the water supply? Through human waste? In which case would it not be filtered out? or am i just being very silly.....
*prepares herself for humiliation*
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Posted:
Well, actually I might have to correct myself there. If I remember correctly (one of my friends analysed sewage water), the real problem is not the pill estrogens themselves, but rather other organic substances...
For example, PCBs were one big problem; they aren't produced anymore in the Western world, but there are still leftovers from when they were kicking around... among other things, they influence the sex of children (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/01/020129073314.htm), shorten menstrual cycles, reduce sperm counts, and mess up the hormone production in addition to acting like a hormone themselves (https://www.clearwater.org/news/pcbhealth.html).
I think humans are still quite safe, but here are some links for animals:
https://www.chemsoc.org/chembytes/ezine/1998/sexoff.htm
Well, actually I might have to correct myself there. If I remember correctly (one of my friends analysed sewage water), the real problem is not the pill estrogens themselves, but rather other organic substances...
For example, PCBs were one big problem; they aren't produced anymore in the Western world, but there are still leftovers from when they were kicking around... among other things, they influence the sex of children (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/01/020129073314.htm), shorten menstrual cycles, reduce sperm counts, and mess up the hormone production in addition to acting like a hormone themselves (https://www.clearwater.org/news/pcbhealth.html).
I think humans are still quite safe, but here are some links for animals:
https://www.chemsoc.org/chembytes/ezine/1998/sexoff.htm
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Posted:
How is that not evolution?
How is that not evolution?
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Posted:
Evolution changes the heriditary traits (= genes you pass on to your children), estrogens do not.
Evolution changes the heriditary traits (= genes you pass on to your children), estrogens do not.
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Posted:
Evolution works not just on physical traits, but behavioural and social traits too. I think with the internet expanding communications at the rate it is, we've already witnessed a behavioural paradigm shift towards online socialising (this forum for example
)....
I reckon human evolution will eventually be tied to the evolution of the net and the social changes it brings...
Further expansion of this idea check out this link
https://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/Papers/WWWSuperBRAIN.html
I'm not mental, honest, people with PHD's have thought of this stuff!
Evolution works not just on physical traits, but behavioural and social traits too. I think with the internet expanding communications at the rate it is, we've already witnessed a behavioural paradigm shift towards online socialising (this forum for example
).... I reckon human evolution will eventually be tied to the evolution of the net and the social changes it brings...
Further expansion of this idea check out this link
https://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/Papers/WWWSuperBRAIN.html
I'm not mental, honest, people with PHD's have thought of this stuff!
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Posted:
The pill in wastewater affects the sex of fish (from what I remember from this years lectures). But it isn’t "evolving" them, its just a change in environmental conditions.
Maybe fish that are resistant to its effects will be more likely to produce offspring. The genotype of those fish would then be more prevalent in the fish population but they wouldn't be a different species, it takes a long time and often some sort of physical separation for one species to 'speciate' into two species.
*biology student*
The pill in wastewater affects the sex of fish (from what I remember from this years lectures). But it isn’t "evolving" them, its just a change in environmental conditions.
Maybe fish that are resistant to its effects will be more likely to produce offspring. The genotype of those fish would then be more prevalent in the fish population but they wouldn't be a different species, it takes a long time and often some sort of physical separation for one species to 'speciate' into two species.
*biology student*
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Posted:
"Evolution works not just on physical traits, but behavioural and social traits too".
Considering how broad a word evolution is, I believe that we are discussing Organic Evolution.
Evolution of a species can come about from change in environmental conditions.
"Evolution works not just on physical traits, but behavioural and social traits too".
Considering how broad a word evolution is, I believe that we are discussing Organic Evolution.
Evolution of a species can come about from change in environmental conditions.
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Posted:
I don't think behavioural and physical can be seperated to any large degree, as something behavioural can trigger a physical change. For example a peacocks tail and it's associated mating insticts are fundamentally linked, i.e. the peacocks with the largest tails get to breed, nothing to do with the environment per se.
As far as humans go, I think we will continue to evolve physically, although the process will be a general averaging out due to globalisation (over a loooong time). I don't think anything in our environment will affect our physical evolution anymore, we're too adaptable, I suppose my point is that it's more likely to be behavioural aspects that cause any physical shifts...
But then, I'm extremely unevevolved myself (hairy palms)
I don't think behavioural and physical can be seperated to any large degree, as something behavioural can trigger a physical change. For example a peacocks tail and it's associated mating insticts are fundamentally linked, i.e. the peacocks with the largest tails get to breed, nothing to do with the environment per se.
As far as humans go, I think we will continue to evolve physically, although the process will be a general averaging out due to globalisation (over a loooong time). I don't think anything in our environment will affect our physical evolution anymore, we're too adaptable, I suppose my point is that it's more likely to be behavioural aspects that cause any physical shifts...
But then, I'm extremely unevevolved myself (hairy palms)
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Posted:
Well, that quote is right in so far as changes to the genes influence behaviour and social life.
Like, say, our brains evolve to get bigger, so we're better at communication and discovery.
Computers? Well, given that people who can't deal with them are (in the Western world) less likely to get a well-paid job and therefore are disadvantaged in reproduction (or can't figure out online dating and will never pull
), maybe. But not yet.
Using the word "evolution" for some of the things it's used for in this discussion is quite dodgy - Daize, if you WANT to believe what you're saying, by all means go ahead, but don't quote someone's opinion in a forum as proof that evolution is a broad word! If you don't want to believe me, look it up in any decent encyclopedia...
Of course, if you want to use it in such a loose way, like for example adapting the word to "cultural evolution" or something like that, fair enough, but in the biological sense we're NOT talking evolution for estrogens in drinking water.
"Evolution of a species can come about from change in environmental conditions. "
Hell, yes, that's what it's all about! Being better adapted to a certain circumstance and surviving because of it. But not as a normal reaction of the body to a substance it's exposed to.
What you're claiming is basically that a botox injection will make people evolve to look younger. But that's wrong, it's all just pharmacology/toxicology, and as soon as the botox wears off you look old again. And your children won't look younger either.
*giving up and handing over to Jeff(fake) after that one*
Well, that quote is right in so far as changes to the genes influence behaviour and social life.
Like, say, our brains evolve to get bigger, so we're better at communication and discovery.
Computers? Well, given that people who can't deal with them are (in the Western world) less likely to get a well-paid job and therefore are disadvantaged in reproduction (or can't figure out online dating and will never pull
), maybe. But not yet.Using the word "evolution" for some of the things it's used for in this discussion is quite dodgy - Daize, if you WANT to believe what you're saying, by all means go ahead, but don't quote someone's opinion in a forum as proof that evolution is a broad word! If you don't want to believe me, look it up in any decent encyclopedia...
Of course, if you want to use it in such a loose way, like for example adapting the word to "cultural evolution" or something like that, fair enough, but in the biological sense we're NOT talking evolution for estrogens in drinking water.
"Evolution of a species can come about from change in environmental conditions. "
Hell, yes, that's what it's all about! Being better adapted to a certain circumstance and surviving because of it. But not as a normal reaction of the body to a substance it's exposed to.
What you're claiming is basically that a botox injection will make people evolve to look younger. But that's wrong, it's all just pharmacology/toxicology, and as soon as the botox wears off you look old again. And your children won't look younger either.
*giving up and handing over to Jeff(fake) after that one*
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Posted:
Just realized the peacock thing was a bad example, the eye pattern scares off predators, so it has a direct survival function. How about a baboons blue butt instead?
Just realized the peacock thing was a bad example, the eye pattern scares off predators, so it has a direct survival function. How about a baboons blue butt instead?
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Posted:
"but don't quote someone's opinion in a forum as proof that evolution is a broad word!" Calm down. I'm sorry if that's how you interperated what I am trying say.
I'm also a little confused as to what you were trying to say above ^.
"but don't quote someone's opinion in a forum as proof that evolution is a broad word!" Calm down. I'm sorry if that's how you interperated what I am trying say.
I'm also a little confused as to what you were trying to say above ^.
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Posted:
which part?
which part?
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Posted:
The variations that would make us evolve are generally those having an affect on our ability to survive and reproduce more than other people.
A good example of this would be homosexuality. Let us assume for a moment that homosexuality is an inherent genetic trait and not merely a social construct. If that is true, then a society which pressured homosexuals to marry and have children would have artificially kept this gene present in our pool.
A society that allowed homosexuals to forgo sexual intercourse in favor of being attracted to the same gender would see a generation of homosexuals die without reproducing. Thus, there would be no children to inherit their mutation. Afterwards, the only homosexuals left would be those who do it because of a mental disorder, those who simply choose it despite any physical or mental variation, or those that have the gene because their parents were homosexuals who decided to reproduce against their nature.
Of course, the most influential factors in human evolution are probably intentional genocide, war, abortion, and birth control. It is difficult to decide whether to label these “natural selection” or unnatural selection. When wolves are able to catch and kill the slower rabbits, I call it natural. When wolves kill the weaker members of their own pack, I call it natural. When animals kill their own offspring, I call it natural. Still, most would probably object to the idea that it is “natural” for humans to do these things.
We don’t need to have the debate again over whether what humans do is “natural” or “unnatural” so I will be content to refer to it merely as “selection.”
The variations that would make us evolve are generally those having an affect on our ability to survive and reproduce more than other people.
A good example of this would be homosexuality. Let us assume for a moment that homosexuality is an inherent genetic trait and not merely a social construct. If that is true, then a society which pressured homosexuals to marry and have children would have artificially kept this gene present in our pool.
A society that allowed homosexuals to forgo sexual intercourse in favor of being attracted to the same gender would see a generation of homosexuals die without reproducing. Thus, there would be no children to inherit their mutation. Afterwards, the only homosexuals left would be those who do it because of a mental disorder, those who simply choose it despite any physical or mental variation, or those that have the gene because their parents were homosexuals who decided to reproduce against their nature.
Of course, the most influential factors in human evolution are probably intentional genocide, war, abortion, and birth control. It is difficult to decide whether to label these “natural selection” or unnatural selection. When wolves are able to catch and kill the slower rabbits, I call it natural. When wolves kill the weaker members of their own pack, I call it natural. When animals kill their own offspring, I call it natural. Still, most would probably object to the idea that it is “natural” for humans to do these things.
We don’t need to have the debate again over whether what humans do is “natural” or “unnatural” so I will be content to refer to it merely as “selection.”
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Posted:
"Hell, yes, that's what it's all about! Being better adapted to a certain circumstance and surviving because of it. But not as a normal reaction of the body to a substance it's exposed to."
"What you're claiming is basically that a botox injection will make people evolve to look younger"
I am unsure as to wether Estrogen can directly cause genetic mutations. Though estrogen increases stimulation of proliferation which creates vulnerability to spontaneous mutations. This would then effect germline mutations, and is in no way comparable to botox.
EDIT: I'll simplify that.
Estrogen stimulates the speed at which cells divide, which increases probability of mutations (such as cancer). This would then effect decendants.
EDITED_BY: daize (1150294433)
"Hell, yes, that's what it's all about! Being better adapted to a certain circumstance and surviving because of it. But not as a normal reaction of the body to a substance it's exposed to."
"What you're claiming is basically that a botox injection will make people evolve to look younger"
I am unsure as to wether Estrogen can directly cause genetic mutations. Though estrogen increases stimulation of proliferation which creates vulnerability to spontaneous mutations. This would then effect germline mutations, and is in no way comparable to botox.
EDIT: I'll simplify that.
Estrogen stimulates the speed at which cells divide, which increases probability of mutations (such as cancer). This would then effect decendants.
EDITED_BY: daize (1150294433)
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Posted:
I didn't understand this part..."but in the biological sense we're NOT talking evolution for estrogens in drinking water"
Another thing to add.
"Hell, yes, that's what it's all about! Being better adapted to a certain circumstance and surviving because of it. But not as a normal reaction of the body to a substance it's exposed to."
Basically by what you said. Evolution is about adapting and phasing out the weak. (which ofcourse is true)
Surely the percentage of women who have a genetic predisposition to high levels of HDL cholesterol when exposed to estrogen, would be phased out as the weak via evolution?
EDITED_BY: daize (1150294162)
I didn't understand this part..."but in the biological sense we're NOT talking evolution for estrogens in drinking water"Another thing to add.
"Hell, yes, that's what it's all about! Being better adapted to a certain circumstance and surviving because of it. But not as a normal reaction of the body to a substance it's exposed to."
Basically by what you said. Evolution is about adapting and phasing out the weak. (which ofcourse is true)
Surely the percentage of women who have a genetic predisposition to high levels of HDL cholesterol when exposed to estrogen, would be phased out as the weak via evolution?
EDITED_BY: daize (1150294162)
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Posted:
Ah, okay.. I'll try to rephrase!
estrogen-like substances like PCBs have been found to cause mustations. But it's very rare that such a mutation would occur in a sperm or egg, AND lead to a baby that survives. If it does, and IF the baby proves to be better at reproduction than others, and if we wait a few generations (or more likely 100 or so) then it is evolution.
But what has been listed under the effects of estrogen so far is just what the estrogens do to the body, not evolution.
I think at the moment we humans change the earth too quickly for ourselves to adapt in an evolutionary way.
I hope that's a bit clearer, sorry for being confusing!!
Pat, "Let us assume for a moment that homosexuality is an inherent genetic trait and not merely a social construct."
Ummm... d'oh
By the way, a paper (will try and find it when I don't have to rush into the lab again) has been published that has found a connection between homosexual men and their female relatives being more "feminine", too - they have a higher average number of children, and in so far I think that's a clear evolutionary advantage that makes up for the brothers not reproducing.
Ah, okay.. I'll try to rephrase!
estrogen-like substances like PCBs have been found to cause mustations. But it's very rare that such a mutation would occur in a sperm or egg, AND lead to a baby that survives. If it does, and IF the baby proves to be better at reproduction than others, and if we wait a few generations (or more likely 100 or so) then it is evolution.
But what has been listed under the effects of estrogen so far is just what the estrogens do to the body, not evolution.
I think at the moment we humans change the earth too quickly for ourselves to adapt in an evolutionary way.
I hope that's a bit clearer, sorry for being confusing!!
Pat, "Let us assume for a moment that homosexuality is an inherent genetic trait and not merely a social construct."
Ummm... d'oh
By the way, a paper (will try and find it when I don't have to rush into the lab again) has been published that has found a connection between homosexual men and their female relatives being more "feminine", too - they have a higher average number of children, and in so far I think that's a clear evolutionary advantage that makes up for the brothers not reproducing.
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Posted:
So my argument was that there is a POSSIBILITY estrogen may effect evolution, though like you said it's too early to tell.
Enjoyed the debate, now I'm off surfing.
Bye
So my argument was that there is a POSSIBILITY estrogen may effect evolution, though like you said it's too early to tell.
Enjoyed the debate, now I'm off surfing.
Bye
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Posted:
all the breast sizes going up and earlier puberty is probably related to all chemicals in our foods
me and brother have to be careful what milk we drink...the growth hormone makes us sick
estrogen has affected the water ways
the extinction gene may be a myth but there comes a point in population where the system hits critical mass and the population is wiped out so the system can support the population...the plague is often used as an example. though back then it was considered a curse on poor folk because it was more prevalent in cities
all the breast sizes going up and earlier puberty is probably related to all chemicals in our foods
me and brother have to be careful what milk we drink...the growth hormone makes us sick
estrogen has affected the water ways
the extinction gene may be a myth but there comes a point in population where the system hits critical mass and the population is wiped out so the system can support the population...the plague is often used as an example. though back then it was considered a curse on poor folk because it was more prevalent in cities
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Posted:
ah, misunderstood you there... I thought you meant what was already visible was evolution I still think though it's quite safe to say that oestrogen will not cause evolution
Will possibly be taught how to surf on the weekend Have fun 
Written by: daize
I read somewhere that the amount of oestrogen in our water supply, from the contraceptive pill, is having a damaging effect on men.
Would it be safe to say that men are evolving towards the femanine?
ah, misunderstood you there... I thought you meant what was already visible was evolution
I still think though it's quite safe to say that oestrogen will not cause evolution Will possibly be taught how to surf on the weekend
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Posted:
We evolved bigger brains by eating more meat millions of years ago, so surly with our diet now we will carry on getting more protean and things - So we should stop evolving new physical traits because of our enviroment is so safe, and only get smarter.
Oh wait our heads will get bigger as our brains grow...ooh arnt we going to look attractive!
We evolved bigger brains by eating more meat millions of years ago, so surly with our diet now we will carry on getting more protean and things - So we should stop evolving new physical traits because of our enviroment is so safe, and only get smarter.
Oh wait our heads will get bigger as our brains grow...ooh arnt we going to look attractive!
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Posted:
Sorry... theoretically it could provoke evolution. I should be more specific with my words.
Surfing was fun, every one should learn how to surf.
Hope you enjoy it!!
Sorry... theoretically it could provoke evolution. I should be more specific with my words.
Surfing was fun, every one should learn how to surf.
Hope you enjoy it!!
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Posted:
sorry to backtrack a bit but:
I'm pretty sure (from reading 'The Blind Watchmaker') that peacocks are birds of paradise and don't have any natural predators. However it has evolved this way due to 'sexual selection', where having bright colours and elaborate body parts might suggest better health, making it more appealing to a potential mate. Or it's been suggested that they might be linked to genes that code for more practical survival characteristics.
Or because they have no natural predators runaway mating would be detremental for the local population so they have developed a way to descriminate between potental mates.
I think the eye thing SamboFlux was thinking of probrably applies to moths and other small insects.
sorry to backtrack a bit but:
Written by: SamboFlux
Just realized the peacock thing was a bad example, the eye pattern scares off predators, so it has a direct survival function.
I'm pretty sure (from reading 'The Blind Watchmaker') that peacocks are birds of paradise and don't have any natural predators. However it has evolved this way due to 'sexual selection', where having bright colours and elaborate body parts might suggest better health, making it more appealing to a potential mate. Or it's been suggested that they might be linked to genes that code for more practical survival characteristics.
Or because they have no natural predators runaway mating would be detremental for the local population so they have developed a way to descriminate between potental mates.
I think the eye thing SamboFlux was thinking of probrably applies to moths and other small insects.
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Posted:
yeah, as far as I know the peacock is more of a "getting the girl" thing than anything else. But still, the more offspring you produce the more likely your traits will survive, so it's not as far away from survival as you may think!
daize, I get quite a few things wrong, too, with English nor being my native language! It's HoP, so in the end it's all friendly
yeah, as far as I know the peacock is more of a "getting the girl" thing than anything else. But still, the more offspring you produce the more likely your traits will survive, so it's not as far away from survival as you may think!
daize, I get quite a few things wrong, too, with English nor being my native language! It's HoP, so in the end it's all friendly "vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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Posted:
Yup, that sounds about right. I was thinking that the pattern on the peacocks tail when "fanned out" has lots of eye shaped patterns on it, and this might function not only as a mating signal but also deter predators. https://www.geocities.com/rs_suresh/peacock.jpg
Whatever the case, the point I was making is that when there are no natural predators and we can adapt to our environment through behavioural changes rather than physical changes (like wearing more clothes in cold climates rather than evolve more hair), our physical evolution, much like the peacock, might be dictated through our behavioural patterns, which evolve in much the same way as our bodies. I was speculating as to how the internet has changed our behavioural and social patterns, and how it will continue to do so on a global scale.
Am I making any sense, or is this the ramblings of a crazy person??
Yup, that sounds about right
. I was thinking that the pattern on the peacocks tail when "fanned out" has lots of eye shaped patterns on it, and this might function not only as a mating signal but also deter predators. https://www.geocities.com/rs_suresh/peacock.jpgWhatever the case, the point I was making is that when there are no natural predators and we can adapt to our environment through behavioural changes rather than physical changes (like wearing more clothes in cold climates rather than evolve more hair), our physical evolution, much like the peacock, might be dictated through our behavioural patterns, which evolve in much the same way as our bodies. I was speculating as to how the internet has changed our behavioural and social patterns, and how it will continue to do so on a global scale.
Am I making any sense, or is this the ramblings of a crazy person??
My Mind is a Ship
Emotions become the Waves
Soul is the Ocean
If a quizz is quizzical, what is a test?
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Not necessarily (really, could you choose a slightly more controversial example next time? ).
Cystic fibrosis causes infertility...and yet it exists in the population. The heterozygous state confers protection against cholera. Perhaps "gay genes" confer some adaptive trait when they don't make the individual gay?
Written by: Patriarch917
A good example of this would be homosexuality. Let us assume for a moment that homosexuality is an inherent genetic trait and not merely a social construct. If that is true, then a society which pressured homosexuals to marry and have children would have artificially kept this gene present in our pool.
Not necessarily (really, could you choose a slightly more controversial example next time?
).Cystic fibrosis causes infertility...and yet it exists in the population. The heterozygous state confers protection against cholera. Perhaps "gay genes" confer some adaptive trait when they don't make the individual gay?
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
A trojan characteristic, huh? A negative trait piggybacking on a positive one and only occasionally manifesting itself would certainly be able to spread as long as the positive affects outweighed the negative.
If I had a gene that made all of my children very fertile, but with a 10% chance of developing anorexia, then 9 of my children might survive and thrive, passing on the gene. The 10th might starve to death by 20 without children. However, the gene (along with the 10% chance of anorexia) would be carried on by the other children.
A trojan characteristic, huh? A negative trait piggybacking on a positive one and only occasionally manifesting itself would certainly be able to spread as long as the positive affects outweighed the negative.
If I had a gene that made all of my children very fertile, but with a 10% chance of developing anorexia, then 9 of my children might survive and thrive, passing on the gene. The 10th might starve to death by 20 without children. However, the gene (along with the 10% chance of anorexia) would be carried on by the other children.
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
https://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1306894,00.html
Summary of the "gay/fertility gene" article
I'm just now imagining 10 little Patriarchs in the discussions forum on HoP, you know...
https://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1306894,00.html
Summary of the "gay/fertility gene" article
I'm just now imagining 10 little Patriarchs in the discussions forum on HoP, you know...
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
BRONZE Member
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Posted:
With 10 little Jeffs to play with?
With 10 little Jeffs to play with?
There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
I'll ask his girlfriend if there are any plans... deary me!!
I'll ask his girlfriend if there are any plans... deary me!!
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
SILVER Member
Member
11 posts
Location: Bristol UK
Member
11 posts
Location: Bristol UK
Posted:
I'm pretty sure that the "gay gene" thing is just speculation and seems to me just to be people trying to 'blame' differences and prejudice on genetics, maybe with the hope of a "cure".
Seems a bit like dangerous ground to me.
I'm pretty sure that the "gay gene" thing is just speculation and seems to me just to be people trying to 'blame' differences and prejudice on genetics, maybe with the hope of a "cure".
Seems a bit like dangerous ground to me.
----
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
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