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Malcolm
SAPPHIRE Member since Nov 2003

Malcolm

HOP admin
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 1023
Posted:Click here to view poll or see main page http://www.homeofpoi.com[This
message has been edited by Malcolm (edited 03 May 2001).]


May your balls always burn

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Girl From Mars


Girl From Mars

member
Location: Liverpool, NY, USA

Total posts: 168
Posted:i say false but it depends, to just do it is false, to learn it would be true, hard for guys cause they got junk to worry about goosing
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------------------the music feeds my soul that glows and grows with every spin i take.


the music feeds my soul that glows and grows with every spin i take.

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Posted:i think its probably true in that women are generally more graceful (there are more women balerinas and what not) and yes, it is ver ez to get "goosed" (trust me... i know). but i think that if a guy is willing to put in the effort we can learn it and become just as good, it just takes more motivation and time to build up the skills. on the other hand, if we are talking fire poi, chains can get pretty heavy and guys generally are more muscular so we might have an easier time with fire stuff. but the women can obviously work for it too. i bet that guys and girls spin differently too, like style wise, because of the way our bodies are. but i dont really know thats mostly speculation.redbrotherGod bless

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:Hi Malcolm,i think the polls are a great idea, but would like to see the questions more generic to fire dancing as opposed to simply "poi". I'm sure I'm not the only one that frequents this site who doesn't use poi...or, if questions are specific to poi (or any other toy), include a "don't use this toy" option, as you did with the glowsticks poll recently.I had to answer "don't know" to the current poll question because I have no subjective view of using poi and am therefore unable to compare my learning/using experience of such with a male's experience.otherwise, thanks: you're fantastic and have indirectly improved my life by creating this website.flash------------------"she dances in a ring of fire and throws off the challenge with a shrug"[This message has been edited by flash fire (edited 03 May 2001).]

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Malcolm
SAPPHIRE Member since Nov 2003

Malcolm

HOP admin
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 1023
Posted:Flash,Cheers for your comments. I am new to making up polls and I am sure I will get better in time. I plan to have polls on many topics and I hope to cover different toys and fire arts over time.Kindest regards
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Malcolm


May your balls always burn

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Peregrine


member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA

Total posts: 428
Posted:not enough detail in question!
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I took a belly dance workshop that was taught by a guy who was way more graceful than any women in the room. traditionally the dance is for both sexes.the guys who are really good at tai chi can move like cats.so i don't think there's any generalization here, guys have the *potential* to be graceful as much as women have the potential to be gawky and awkward. on the other hand, most guys have probably spent their whole lives not working on being graceful and instead just working on the strength thing, and just brute strength doesn't really get you anywhere. so if guys want to be graceful they should consider not just how heavy the stuff theyre dancing with is but how they do it, and if you systematically work on being flexible and graceful, it forces you to also be strong in, say, your legs and hips and back and shoulders and such since it actually takes a lot of work for controlled flexibility for that 'effortless' look. so guys take yoga or tai chi or something and get them hips workin!the thing which is different is how that gracefullness looks due to the differences in body structures of men and women. a curvy woman might look a little more sinuous than a guy just because she has defined hips and (hey!) breasts. however theres no value judgement here, because in case anyone looked lately, men and women are different so of course they are going to have different styles. i've heard from someone that female fire dancers are more likely to be hired over men because they can wear skimpy outfits and the like and they don't have to be very good if they do that. and if guys get hired at all they have to have a so called 'great' body, and a lot of the really good guy firedancers i have seen have all been really wiry and don't conform to what society thinks attractive guys should look like. but hey! i don't mind wiry myself! so, if this is true, what do we do about that skill vs appearance bias by the boring public? or dont we care? i'm not exactly a centerfold and not the best twirler around, but i dont really care because its fun.PerePS. I always considered myself not particularly graceful in life and so now i am trying to make up for it and its really hard work! (i'm female by the way)


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Twist


member


Total posts: 160
Posted:heheheh...yay for wiry guy fire dancers!!! i'm 6'8" and very lean... and actually consider myself fairly graceful... believe it or not...I totally agree with Pere though... a lot of women I know (more so than men) seem to bring a more natural sensuality and sexuality to dancing...

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N8


member
Location: NY, USA

Total posts: 336
Posted:Humm, No. woman are not more graceful. Fluidity comes with practice, a guy can be graceful and smooth it just takes time. Granted it may take more time that it would for a woman but i think that it is generally a pretty fair toss up.------------------Care of other people's approval and you become their prisoner.Live fully, Rave wholly.Fluid are the movements of my strings...

Care of other people's approval and you become their prisoner.Live fully, Rave wholly.Fluid are the movements of my strings...

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Posted:Well, as you were all expecting, I'm going to chip in here with the Nature vs Nurture debate.(are you surprised?)I'd say that in most societies female children are more encouraged to develop grace over strength (granted, this is changing), and vice versa for Male children. Is there any wonder that the adults production of this process represents those values and expectations?Is there any physical difference between the male and female form that would result in a difference in abilty to move gracefully?Females have unarguably more flexible hips - at least. They also have different fat distributions, and slightly less muscle bulk. However do you think that ANY of these things would result in different looking Poi work, should a male and a female child be raised and trained by the same Poi master - with no other expectation other than to poi gracefully? I'd say not.*BUT*all things considered, we are (to a greater or a lesser extent) the product of the society we are raised in, and thus, discussions of abilty must take that into account - so - Females are more likely to be graceful than males, but it is a learned (or not learned) response, not a physical difference.Josh-the opinionated one.

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Posted:just realised that 99% of what I said in the previous post was irrelevant
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(no change I hear you mutter)yeah well - this is the internet, and this is a bulletin board
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erm - doing poi requires very little flexibility, aside from BTB tricks...and besides, I havent read any info which identified any inherent difference between the flexibility of Men's and Women's shoulders...Personally I think Staff requires a shit load more flexibility than Poi..Josh


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Posted:maybe this is a little digression .... but if you guys and gals want to develop flexibility, grace, strength and just feel great without hurting yourself through following some "no pain, no gain" fitness regime then you should consider trying Pilates exercises.... in a few months you will feel like a new person. Or maybe a life of poi, staff and juggling is enough to keep us all in tip top shape? what do you think?

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Posted:Josh, you just said that doing poi requires v. little flexibility. Well...That may well be the case, it's just that, in virtually all cases, doing poi and making it look good DOES require flexibility! I only know one person who can do enough technically good stuff to look great on his own without being flexible; a lot of people just stand around, hold their arms in the same place, in fact hold their whole body in the same place. Even just changing height can make a major difference to the appearance - I had to learn all sorts of tricks when I only had a low-ceilinged room to practice in, then people got impressed by the fact that I could kneel down while keeping the poi over my head; it's not exactly flexibility but it does look better than standing still!umm... having just read this, it doesn't entirely make sense, but I really can't work out what's wrong with it, any comments?

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Peregrine


member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA

Total posts: 428
Posted:no that makes sense...to just DO POI ie, twirl them around in front of you, doesnt require a whole lot of flexibility except in your wrists to make it fluid, and you do have to have it in your shoulders and arms to do any over the head stuff for any length of time...but to really dance and move with them and turn around without looking like those flamingos in the new fantasia movie you need the whole body to move well. i think maybe the confusion here is that when i say flexibility i'm not really talking about being able to pull your arms behind your back or being able to bend yourself into a pretzel or something. flexibility i'm talking about is having conditioned your muscles and tendons and the like so that when you do kneel down and bend backwards and twirl poi over your head (for an extreme example) you don't get that rictus grin of strain on your face because you've just thrown out your lower back. and you can do a kind of snaky ribcage isolation when doing butterfly type things which makes it look like you're throwing the poi out farther...still working on this one so it doesn't look like i'm totally uncoordinated (which i am, usually)...yeah the other thing is you have to be able to do it without thought really so its just second nature and that's when you make those really hard things look effortless. now we need to start another thread
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Pere


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Posted:i'd say that women have a natural advantage as they dont have balls!! but then again if a woman is ' well provided for' then men may have a distinct advantage

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Thank you for that ajtag...they do pose an issue at times on those inside moves. I think I have nearly taken a nip off once or twice!
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And Jugglerloser, Pilates is wonderful, I agree. And the basic routine I think anyone can do. A great source is the book The Pilates Body by Brooke Siler. I just started a regime where I do this and yoga everyday (one in the morning before my walk and one at night after my practice) and it is already having effects that are wonderful.Cheerios------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...[This message has been edited by Pele (edited 05 May 2001).]


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Posted:Glad to hear that you are on the road to a sound body, Pele. I also have "the pilates body", it's a really good in depth source of info on how do do the exercise correctly. I find only one fault with it... that it seems to be aimed only at women. Am I the only guy who doesn't want huge bulging muscles? Is it so unusual to want only a strong, healthy, flexible body? I do my exercises from the original book by pilates... with the original pictures of him doing all these really tough exercise when he was 60 years old!! I want to be as fit and to look as good as him when I am that age. Maybe someone should halt this digression and post a topic about exercise regimes.

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Posted:everyone keeps saying that girls have it better because they have no balls... well thats true, but you "guys" dont have boobs! there for im sure cross overs are done with much more ease.. i say over all its an equal battle.

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Posted:oh and pele.. nice quote! i love that movie
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Posted:i would like to point out that i never said that women were more graceful, i said they are generally more graceful. and that men if they care enough can learn just as good. some ppl didnt seem to like that, but i think thats b/c you didnt understand what i was saying, and when you replied you basically restated exactly what i said in slightly different words. im not saying that it is easier for either to actually twirl, both have advantages and disadvantages, its just harder for guys to learn and look good at it because of (like josh said) girls have been brought up to be more graceful. as far as the balls vs boobs, i suppose having extra mass up there would be rather hindering. so it does all even out. (i dont know if it is as painful for the women though, because i dont have boobs)as far as using flexibility when you twirl, i basically have two styles, depending on my mood. one is really slow and graceful with alot of turning my body around in circles(well i try anyway, theres an example of a guy learning), and the other is more agressive, moving forward and back, and down and up, twirling very fast, when i do the butterfly i might move my hands back and forth across eachother or cris-crossed rather than have them still in one spot, that sort of thing. when i finish with that sort of thing through, my wrists usually hurt a bit, maybe i need to stretch a little better (i usually dont).

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Posted:that bottom part there was kind of an comment on what shahgirl said earlier, but i relize now there is a whole thread a bit lower devoted to it, sorry 4 wasin the space.

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Posted:ok - to sum up this thread at this point...1) doing Poi (ie twirling poi balls on strings) only really requires wrist flexibility and strength, and a bit of Shoulder strength and flex.2) There seems to be some confusion (at least on my part) concerning the difference / seperation between Poi'ing and Dancing. Some seem to suggest that they are the same thing - I would suggest that you can poi and / or dance - but the two things aren't inextricably linked. AFAIK, traditional Indian club swinging is performed while standing very still...surely IRT contemporary Poi swinging, this must be taken into account? Does anyone know about traditional Poi work? cuz AFAIK, traditional poi work, while very graceful, isnt a dance around the stage style dance...3) Some more explanation of the Pilates method would be excellent at this point - cuz I simply dont have any idea what its all about...any weblinks? It sounds really interesting...

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