Forums > Social Discussion > Does the US Army Deserve Praise?
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Carpal \'Tunnel
2,666 posts
Location: Preston, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,666 posts
Location: Preston, United Kingdom
Posted:
I was in another forum and I saw this message..
The US army is one of the most imoral uncareing and reckless armys around currently, they arnt all like that but it seems somewhere along the way the content control seems to have been skipped by the men in charge.
So I put in this post
Then this guy posts this...
To which I posted after much thought
God bless america, land of the free, land of the american dream, land of the smug! Until someone says something they dont like and they want to erase it, I guess there's a little Richard Nixon in all of them.
I hope this turns into a worthwhile post I think ive gone and missed 'The woman Who Thinks Like a Cow' because of it...dag-namit!
I was in another forum and I saw this message..
Written by:
BAGHDAD, Iraq — Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Al Qaeda in Iraq leader who led a brutal insurgency that included homicide bombings, kidnappings and beheadings, was killed in an airstrike on a building north of Baghdad, U.S. and Iraqi officials announced Thursday.
The man whose been responsible for killing American Soldiers and the deaths of untold thousands of Iraqi civilians just ate 1000lbs of bombs, which was oh so graciously delivered to him by one of our F-16's.
Keep up the good fight guys. The world is a safer place today.
The US army is one of the most imoral uncareing and reckless armys around currently, they arnt all like that but it seems somewhere along the way the content control seems to have been skipped by the men in charge.
So I put in this post
Written by:
Now if we could just stop jar heads killing civilians, or shooting british troops. There was this time these geniouse americans were orderd to wait for british troops to relieve them and told to shoot anyone who comes near them until the british arrive. The english arrive in english vehicles, at the correct time, on the planned route, broadcasting over the radio announcing there approach. So what do the american troops do? Start shooting the British, huzah!
Then this guy posts this...
Written by:
On the interest of keeping things civil, I'll ask you to remove that, or have a DM do so, and we'll forget it was ever there.
This was made to honor those who are over there making the sacrifice that to few are willing to make. American, British, Australian, Japanese, and the rest of those in the coalition.
Not to attack them
To which I posted after much thought
Written by:
Wouldnt that be un-constitutional?
God bless america, land of the free, land of the american dream, land of the smug! Until someone says something they dont like and they want to erase it, I guess there's a little Richard Nixon in all of them.
I hope this turns into a worthwhile post I think ive gone and missed 'The woman Who Thinks Like a Cow' because of it...dag-namit!
Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat
'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Anyone who joins the military, whatever their speciality, is a soldier and has signed away their life to do what the army tells them- and, for anyone who is male, that could involve killing.
Anyone with a real understanding of the military, knows that and isn't really in a position to complain when they find themselves in a war zone and their life under conbstant threat.
I would say though, that the U.S. military, markets the job extremely well and, to an extent, specifically targets those who tend not to have a full understanding of what they're getting themselves into (eg the young, poor, those with limited education and those with few other obvious prospects in the civilian world).
In the UK we have the T.A.. which is basically part-time military for civilians.
If you're into outdoor/adventure/fitness activity and getting well paid for it, it can be a tempting option.
I was certainly tempted whilst I was a penniless student- the main thing that put me off was the fact that, having received the training, from that point on, in the event of future military conflict, I would be legally (and, arguably, morally) obliged to fight, if the governement decreed it.
In a sense, of course, there's always potential legal obligation to fight, for example, if conscription is brought in- however, I would be totally happy to refuse- whereas, if I'd actually taken advantage of the T.A. and its training, I don't feel that I'd have much moral case for refusal.
So, whereas I'd be happy to learn to use guns, do outdoor exercises, engage in the social life and get well paid for it; at the end of the day, I am not the kind of person who is willing to be voluntarily involved in the kind of armed conflicts that the British government poitentially gets involved in.
For that one reason, I refrained from the T.A. despite all the benefits that would have come with it.
I'm lucky, I was aware enough to find out early in life the realities of war; the fact that, however heroic, strong, disciplined, well-trained, glamerous, action-packed etc the military are, when it comes to firefights it's all about fear to the point of absolute terror and, for many, returning home disabled, with parts of your body missing and facing a life which, for most, will be far less than it would have been had you not joined the military.
And that's just from a self-orientated viewpoint, without mentioning the much greater numbers of the, less well equipped/trained, enemy you've faced, a large portion of who weren't even serving the other side, but were innocent civilians, including children.
That is what joining the military always potentially involves- being put in a situation where you personally could become severly disabled for the rest of your life, where you could have to watch people you love be killed/disabled; and where you may have to kill/disable those on the other side, as well as being involved in a process which, whether intentional or not, will result in the death/maiming of innocent civilians and children.
Of course, many believe that, despite these horrors, it's all necessary, in order to hold back the even greater horrors that would ensue if the war wasn't fought.
Personally, I think those people are wrong and that is why I would not fight in any of the conflicts initiated by U.S. or U.K. governments.
It seems obvious to me on a fundamental level, that most problems will not be solved by bombing and killing.
I accept that there is a problem, but that the terrorist threat to the West is, on the grand scheme of things, inconsequental relative to what a portion of the West (I won't use the phrase 'the West' cos most of the West is not actually in agreement with those backing the war) has/is/will do, to other communities in the world who, it has to be said, don't even have much of a connection to the terrorists anyway.
Additionally, as many have pointed out, each time an innocent communtiy/family is wiped out or damaged, future terrorists are created.
There will always be terrorists, just as, on a smaller scale, all communities will have some murders/rapists- what these wars are doing is basically breeding terrorists and making the problem much worse.
In the UK, our police, having shot dead (six times in the head) a, now known to be completely innocent Brazilian bystander, believing him to be a terrorist (and then lying about the facts)- have recently shot another man, on the grounds that intelligence sources had his abode down as containing chemical weapons.
There where no weapons or means of making them in the house of his family- it's looking like this man (and his family who were terrorised by dozens of black-clad sub-machine gun toting 'police') was also completely innocent.
The main terrorists in this situation i.e. those spreading the most fear/terror, killing/bombing and taking most civilian lives are the U.S. and U.K. governemtns themselves.
Written by: Pele
Not true.
They didn't "volunteer". They were hired. It is a paid position that you apply for. I know people who were turned down by the military too. They get paid. It is a job/career, not a volunteer thing.
And, for example, my friend signed up to learn engineering and get college money. He is driving a tank now.
Another friend signed up so that he could learn languages and get money for international law. They told him what languages he was going to learn (he did not choose) and then he was taught to shoot a gun and sent overseas.
I also know someone who went through infantry training, his entire platoon was asked if anyone could type. He raised his hand and ended up being in the secretarial pool for some administrator somewhere on an aircraft carrier. He expected to have to use his gun, instead he is typing reports somewhere.
It is not as cut and dry as everyone seems to wrack it up to be. The people who sign up do not always expect, or want, to shoot or kill. Several sign up for jobs that they really believe they will not have to do violence in..and the military figures out a way to twist it all around.
I think you all need to also keep in mind that it is not all black and white the way you seem to be thinking.
Anyone who joins the military, whatever their speciality, is a soldier and has signed away their life to do what the army tells them- and, for anyone who is male, that could involve killing.
Anyone with a real understanding of the military, knows that and isn't really in a position to complain when they find themselves in a war zone and their life under conbstant threat.
I would say though, that the U.S. military, markets the job extremely well and, to an extent, specifically targets those who tend not to have a full understanding of what they're getting themselves into (eg the young, poor, those with limited education and those with few other obvious prospects in the civilian world).
In the UK we have the T.A.. which is basically part-time military for civilians.
If you're into outdoor/adventure/fitness activity and getting well paid for it, it can be a tempting option.
I was certainly tempted whilst I was a penniless student- the main thing that put me off was the fact that, having received the training, from that point on, in the event of future military conflict, I would be legally (and, arguably, morally) obliged to fight, if the governement decreed it.
In a sense, of course, there's always potential legal obligation to fight, for example, if conscription is brought in- however, I would be totally happy to refuse- whereas, if I'd actually taken advantage of the T.A. and its training, I don't feel that I'd have much moral case for refusal.
So, whereas I'd be happy to learn to use guns, do outdoor exercises, engage in the social life and get well paid for it; at the end of the day, I am not the kind of person who is willing to be voluntarily involved in the kind of armed conflicts that the British government poitentially gets involved in.
For that one reason, I refrained from the T.A. despite all the benefits that would have come with it.
I'm lucky, I was aware enough to find out early in life the realities of war; the fact that, however heroic, strong, disciplined, well-trained, glamerous, action-packed etc the military are, when it comes to firefights it's all about fear to the point of absolute terror and, for many, returning home disabled, with parts of your body missing and facing a life which, for most, will be far less than it would have been had you not joined the military.
And that's just from a self-orientated viewpoint, without mentioning the much greater numbers of the, less well equipped/trained, enemy you've faced, a large portion of who weren't even serving the other side, but were innocent civilians, including children.
That is what joining the military always potentially involves- being put in a situation where you personally could become severly disabled for the rest of your life, where you could have to watch people you love be killed/disabled; and where you may have to kill/disable those on the other side, as well as being involved in a process which, whether intentional or not, will result in the death/maiming of innocent civilians and children.
Of course, many believe that, despite these horrors, it's all necessary, in order to hold back the even greater horrors that would ensue if the war wasn't fought.
Personally, I think those people are wrong and that is why I would not fight in any of the conflicts initiated by U.S. or U.K. governments.
It seems obvious to me on a fundamental level, that most problems will not be solved by bombing and killing.
I accept that there is a problem, but that the terrorist threat to the West is, on the grand scheme of things, inconsequental relative to what a portion of the West (I won't use the phrase 'the West' cos most of the West is not actually in agreement with those backing the war) has/is/will do, to other communities in the world who, it has to be said, don't even have much of a connection to the terrorists anyway.
Additionally, as many have pointed out, each time an innocent communtiy/family is wiped out or damaged, future terrorists are created.
There will always be terrorists, just as, on a smaller scale, all communities will have some murders/rapists- what these wars are doing is basically breeding terrorists and making the problem much worse.
In the UK, our police, having shot dead (six times in the head) a, now known to be completely innocent Brazilian bystander, believing him to be a terrorist (and then lying about the facts)- have recently shot another man, on the grounds that intelligence sources had his abode down as containing chemical weapons.
There where no weapons or means of making them in the house of his family- it's looking like this man (and his family who were terrorised by dozens of black-clad sub-machine gun toting 'police') was also completely innocent.
The main terrorists in this situation i.e. those spreading the most fear/terror, killing/bombing and taking most civilian lives are the U.S. and U.K. governemtns themselves.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
actually they are...I went through training with some of ROTC and most of it was guerrilla warfare-type training. Now if they fought like they did in 1776, that might confuse the soldiers. They are trained for all different types of warfare.
(ot-I was the only civilian to finish winter manuevers--I froze to the ground once or twice. I want to do it again)
Written by: Stone
I agree dream, the American military with it’s RAM or not, can’t cope with guerrilla warfare.
.
actually they are...I went through training with some of ROTC and most of it was guerrilla warfare-type training. Now if they fought like they did in 1776, that might confuse the soldiers. They are trained for all different types of warfare.
(ot-I was the only civilian to finish winter manuevers--I froze to the ground once or twice. I want to do it again)
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Training is one thing. but their record in places like Vietnam and Iraq suggest otherwise.
Training is one thing. but their record in places like Vietnam and Iraq suggest otherwise.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Carpal \'Tunnel
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
Posted:
when i was an army cadet we did F.I.B.U.A. (fightin in built up areas) that was good fun when your a teenager running around, chucking flash bangs into rooms then empying a clip into the room following the explosion
but looking back on it now if that was against a live target with live ammo and the will to survive then i think it would be a lot different
when i was an army cadet we did F.I.B.U.A. (fightin in built up areas) that was good fun when your a teenager running around, chucking flash bangs into rooms then empying a clip into the room following the explosion
but looking back on it now if that was against a live target with live ammo and the will to survive then i think it would be a lot different
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
No doubt.
While I have trained extensively in computer simulations for the inevitable zombie outbreak or alien invasion, I'm sure things will be a lot different when it really happens.
No doubt.
While I have trained extensively in computer simulations for the inevitable zombie outbreak or alien invasion, I'm sure things will be a lot different when it really happens.
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
yeah, i've even planed the building i want to occupy when the zombie hordes come, but i dont know how i could block off stairwell access, or for that matter get weapons to kill them with
yeah, i've even planed the building i want to occupy when the zombie hordes come, but i dont know how i could block off stairwell access, or for that matter get weapons to kill them with
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Ahhh... back when insurgents were true patriots.
Written by: faithinfire
Now if they fought like they did in 1776,
Ahhh... back when insurgents were true patriots.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posted:
Some random person once said that an army should be considered a force of good when it has the support of the local population and a force of evil when it does not. Simple but in my opinion very true.
The American military is thus obviously a force of evil in Iraq, and just about anywhere else it goes.
And saying that soldiers are just doing a job and following orders so they are not to blame is kind of lame. Anyone who voluntarily makes a career out of killing innocent people half way across the world is evil, in my opinion. There are always alternatives, especially in the world's most developed economy.
You may disagree with me of course.
Some random person once said that an army should be considered a force of good when it has the support of the local population and a force of evil when it does not. Simple but in my opinion very true.
The American military is thus obviously a force of evil in Iraq, and just about anywhere else it goes.
And saying that soldiers are just doing a job and following orders so they are not to blame is kind of lame. Anyone who voluntarily makes a career out of killing innocent people half way across the world is evil, in my opinion. There are always alternatives, especially in the world's most developed economy.
You may disagree with me of course.
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
mmmm no when they all lined up like cans on a fence to be knocked down...US has been doing some form a guerilla warfare since the revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion
Written by: NYCWritten by: faithinfire
Now if they fought like they did in 1776,
Ahhh... back when insurgents were true patriots.
mmmm no when they all lined up like cans on a fence to be knocked down...US has been doing some form a guerilla warfare since the revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Um... are you arguing with yourself again?
You're the one talking about style of fighting. I was just talking about the paralels between an 'insurgency' and a 'revolution'. Neither one has anything to do with style of fighting.
Um... are you arguing with yourself again?
You're the one talking about style of fighting. I was just talking about the paralels between an 'insurgency' and a 'revolution'. Neither one has anything to do with style of fighting.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
your attitude is not appreciated, I wasn't talking to you. I was only supporting my previous statement that we have been using this style since before we were a country.
Written by: NYC
Um... are you arguing with yourself again?
You're the one talking about style of fighting. I was just talking about the paralels between an 'insurgency' and a 'revolution'. Neither one has anything to do with style of fighting.
Written by: Stone
I agree dream, the American military with it’s RAM or not, can’t cope with guerrilla warfare.
.
your attitude is not appreciated, I wasn't talking to you. I was only supporting my previous statement that we have been using this style since before we were a country.
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
Faithinfire, if you post with a quote from someone, people are going to assume that you're talking to them/addressing their points...
And his attitude seems to be jocular in nature (as evidenced by the smiley) and his point is interesting in the comparison between "insurgents" in Iraq and the founders of America as it is today.
He didn't mention anything about guerilla warfare. Either you quoted the wrong person or misread what he said. Either way, there's no need to insult him.
Faithinfire, if you post with a quote from someone, people are going to assume that you're talking to them/addressing their points...
And his attitude seems to be jocular in nature (as evidenced by the smiley) and his point is interesting in the comparison between "insurgents" in Iraq and the founders of America as it is today.
He didn't mention anything about guerilla warfare. Either you quoted the wrong person or misread what he said. Either way, there's no need to insult him.
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
422 posts
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
422 posts
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posted:
Pele, I have not met you personally, but I love you.
If you were a guy, I would ask to have your babies. Perhaps, instead, I can have hideously evil clones of you?
..... er.... I mean, your second argument was a highly valid one to which I concur most heartedly and in the greatest of earnest. You are well spoken and articulate on this subject matter.
Actually, to be honest with you, I definitely have to agree with you on supporting the soldiers and not supporting the people in charge. A friend of mine joined the army not because he wanted to kill people, not because he wanted to defend his nation, or anything like that. He had been living with an abusive stepfather and a mother who was blind to their fights. When he turned 18, his stepfather summarily threw him out with pretty much the clothes on his back and whatever just so happened to be in his pocket. He joined the army because that was the only place he could quickly find work, steady food, and a roof over his head.
Pele, I have not met you personally, but I love you.
If you were a guy, I would ask to have your babies. Perhaps, instead, I can have hideously evil clones of you?
..... er.... I mean, your second argument was a highly valid one to which I concur most heartedly and in the greatest of earnest. You are well spoken and articulate on this subject matter.
Actually, to be honest with you, I definitely have to agree with you on supporting the soldiers and not supporting the people in charge. A friend of mine joined the army not because he wanted to kill people, not because he wanted to defend his nation, or anything like that. He had been living with an abusive stepfather and a mother who was blind to their fights. When he turned 18, his stepfather summarily threw him out with pretty much the clothes on his back and whatever just so happened to be in his pocket. He joined the army because that was the only place he could quickly find work, steady food, and a roof over his head.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
no, its because we dont want to place ourselves in a situation where other people decide if and when we die.
This is one situation where you can blame the powerful leaders/Gov. trapping the derperate when they're down is the most dispicable thing about the military. this is where the mentality of a soldier comes in, how easy is it to make someone pick up a gun? the US takes the desparate, the religious and the patriotic, the 'enemy' use the desparate and patriotic and religious, then throw them at each other and not care which ones come back.
if we cant stop the desparate being willing to be put in a situation where they will kill for a roof over their head and food on their table we will never be able to stop war. not meaning to offend, but your friends mentality is one that perpetuates violence, not ceases it.
Written by: faithinfire
why are people not running to enlist, because we are soft and spoiled
no, its because we dont want to place ourselves in a situation where other people decide if and when we die.
Written by: Kathain Bowen
When he turned 18, his stepfather summarily threw him out with pretty much the clothes on his back and whatever just so happened to be in his pocket. He joined the army because that was the only place he could quickly find work, steady food, and a roof over his head.
This is one situation where you can blame the powerful leaders/Gov. trapping the derperate when they're down is the most dispicable thing about the military. this is where the mentality of a soldier comes in, how easy is it to make someone pick up a gun? the US takes the desparate, the religious and the patriotic, the 'enemy' use the desparate and patriotic and religious, then throw them at each other and not care which ones come back.
if we cant stop the desparate being willing to be put in a situation where they will kill for a roof over their head and food on their table we will never be able to stop war. not meaning to offend, but your friends mentality is one that perpetuates violence, not ceases it.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
member
53 posts
53 posts
Posted:
Individual soldiers do deserve praise. They are the people out there doing what they think is right, and it's not easy. The US military as a whole is being guided by an idiot president and shouldn't be praised as a whole. But I respect those who have taken the initiative to go out there and do what they think is right. Standing up for what one believes in is one of the most difficult things to do especially when the majority disagrees with said action.
I was there the first time the UN went to Iraq. The problem with such a conflict and the people who enlist into the military is this: Most people arn't mentally capable of dealing with such a conflict. It's not like fighting with one guy in a boxing ring or in a bar. Nor is it like harming another person as an act of self defense.
Individual soldiers do deserve praise. They are the people out there doing what they think is right, and it's not easy. The US military as a whole is being guided by an idiot president and shouldn't be praised as a whole. But I respect those who have taken the initiative to go out there and do what they think is right. Standing up for what one believes in is one of the most difficult things to do especially when the majority disagrees with said action.
I was there the first time the UN went to Iraq. The problem with such a conflict and the people who enlist into the military is this: Most people arn't mentally capable of dealing with such a conflict. It's not like fighting with one guy in a boxing ring or in a bar. Nor is it like harming another person as an act of self defense.
SILVER Member
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Posted:
Ya know, I don't think that killing civilians just to get at zarqawi should be praised. I don't think that killing inoccent civilians is exuseable because your team mates were hit by an I.E.D.I don't think being here in iraq to chase down terrorists is worth American,british,australian....troops lives. Some of the Iraqi's I've talked to are glad that we are here. They don't like the goverment that's been put in place here. They want to get rid of the government that is in place here and start over. Most of the violence that is going on here is not from the iraqi's either. It's from third country nationals that want nothing more than to slow down Iraq's progress by killing the troops that are here trying to help it. I'm here in Iraq as a U.S. soldier. I joined the army to better myself,to get away from the lifestyle I used to live, to Provide a better life for my family than i could have ever done if i were still a civilian. Do you know what i do here? I drive a truck. I don't kill people. I carry a gun.True, but I don't get to fire it.Hell ,nobody wants to fire theirs either. I carry supplies from one place to another so other soldiers can fix equipment, provide medical supplies for treatment for or give medical supplies to the local nationals. I also carry food, water, mail to soldiers and local nationals alike. I'm so honored that you can sterotype all soldiers because some idiot told an airforce pilot to drop a bomb or because some group of marines went wacko and killed some local nationals. I don't like being here just as much as you do. (cutting this short and going to bed. It's 2:30 in the A.M. here in "derilict" land.)
EDITED_BY: Violently Tame (1150728663)
Ya know, I don't think that killing civilians just to get at zarqawi should be praised. I don't think that killing inoccent civilians is exuseable because your team mates were hit by an I.E.D.I don't think being here in iraq to chase down terrorists is worth American,british,australian....troops lives. Some of the Iraqi's I've talked to are glad that we are here. They don't like the goverment that's been put in place here. They want to get rid of the government that is in place here and start over. Most of the violence that is going on here is not from the iraqi's either. It's from third country nationals that want nothing more than to slow down Iraq's progress by killing the troops that are here trying to help it. I'm here in Iraq as a U.S. soldier. I joined the army to better myself,to get away from the lifestyle I used to live, to Provide a better life for my family than i could have ever done if i were still a civilian. Do you know what i do here? I drive a truck. I don't kill people. I carry a gun.True, but I don't get to fire it.Hell ,nobody wants to fire theirs either. I carry supplies from one place to another so other soldiers can fix equipment, provide medical supplies for treatment for or give medical supplies to the local nationals. I also carry food, water, mail to soldiers and local nationals alike. I'm so honored that you can sterotype all soldiers because some idiot told an airforce pilot to drop a bomb or because some group of marines went wacko and killed some local nationals. I don't like being here just as much as you do. (cutting this short and going to bed. It's 2:30 in the A.M. here in "derilict" land.)
EDITED_BY: Violently Tame (1150728663)
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-
Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-
SILVER Member
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posted:
So how come most of the people languishing in jails without charge are Iraqis, and not third country nationals?
Written by: Violently Tame
Most of the violence that is going on here is not from the iraqi's either. It's from third country nationals that want nothing more than to slow down Iraq's progress
So how come most of the people languishing in jails without charge are Iraqis, and not third country nationals?
SILVER Member
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Posted:
I changed " Most of the violence" to "Some of the violence" because ,truly, I don't know what entirely go's on here in iraq. So it would be unfair and un truthful of me to say "most of the violence" when i don't have a completly clear picture of what's going on here.
If I was military police or military intelegence(there's an oxymoron) i could give you a better explanation than that most of the local nationals that are in jail are because they do or are beleived to have ties to insurgents and or terrorist groups operating within iraq. That's only some of them though. You have other local nationals in jail because they attacked or attemted to attack a patrol,convoy,or F.O.B. or they were manufactureing V.B.I.E.D.'s, S.V.B.I.E.D's, Homicide bomber vest's,or I.E.D.'s. We also get attacked because we are trying to back out of iraq's workings, but we've been here so long holding their hand that they are mad at us for doing so. Let me give you an example. We caught a local national after he had mortared our F.O.B.. When questioned about why he did it, it was because he was sunni. Shiites(sp?) had car bombed his mosque and whene his tribe asked us for help with retaliation against the shiites we turned them down and told them to handle it on their own and that we could not help them. so because we refused to help them after helping them for so long in rebuilding their infrastructure and handleing their police work and so on that we get attacked for trying to let go of their hand.
EDITED_BY: Violently Tame (1150728905)
I changed " Most of the violence" to "Some of the violence" because ,truly, I don't know what entirely go's on here in iraq. So it would be unfair and un truthful of me to say "most of the violence" when i don't have a completly clear picture of what's going on here.
If I was military police or military intelegence(there's an oxymoron) i could give you a better explanation than that most of the local nationals that are in jail are because they do or are beleived to have ties to insurgents and or terrorist groups operating within iraq. That's only some of them though. You have other local nationals in jail because they attacked or attemted to attack a patrol,convoy,or F.O.B. or they were manufactureing V.B.I.E.D.'s, S.V.B.I.E.D's, Homicide bomber vest's,or I.E.D.'s. We also get attacked because we are trying to back out of iraq's workings, but we've been here so long holding their hand that they are mad at us for doing so. Let me give you an example. We caught a local national after he had mortared our F.O.B.. When questioned about why he did it, it was because he was sunni. Shiites(sp?) had car bombed his mosque and whene his tribe asked us for help with retaliation against the shiites we turned them down and told them to handle it on their own and that we could not help them. so because we refused to help them after helping them for so long in rebuilding their infrastructure and handleing their police work and so on that we get attacked for trying to let go of their hand.
EDITED_BY: Violently Tame (1150728905)
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-
Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-
SILVER Member
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posted:
Violently Tame, on a lighter note, what is it like being a poi spinner in the US Army in the middle of a war zone?? :-)
I assume most typical soldiers would find it kind of weird!
Violently Tame, on a lighter note, what is it like being a poi spinner in the US Army in the middle of a war zone?? :-)
I assume most typical soldiers would find it kind of weird!
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
But surely that's exactly what GW Bush's justification for the war is?
Written by: havocangel
Standing up for what one believes in is one of the most difficult things to do especially when the majority disagrees with said action.
But surely that's exactly what GW Bush's justification for the war is?
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Hi Violently Tame, could you explain what you mean when you say ‘They don't like the Government that's been put in place here”.
Australians that used to live in Iraq are saying that an effective secular Government was replaced with a dysfunctional fundamentalist one.
Hi Violently Tame, could you explain what you mean when you say ‘They don't like the Government that's been put in place here”.
Australians that used to live in Iraq are saying that an effective secular Government was replaced with a dysfunctional fundamentalist one.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Posted:
It's exactly like you said. We came in and set the foundation. Then the Iraqi's elected who they wanted in their government, but some of the people that they elected turned out to be crooked. I here everyday about some of the militias(sp?) here in the area that i'm in. The government here support's these militias, not monitarily that i know of,but in what they do. The malitas run around mafia style. they kidnap Interpreters, many of wich are found dead and only because they work for the coalition forces here in iraq. they also make the local nationals give them money with threats of rape and death of family members. We've also heard of them burning people's house's and takeing their livestock for not giveing them money. The local nationals that aren't part of the militias want the new government replaced in order to help stop the militias. The local nationals here are glad that we took saddam out of power, but since the new government they now live in fear of the militias instead of saddam now.
Written by: Stone
Hi Violently Tame, could you explain what you mean when you say ‘They don't like the Government that's been put in place here”.
Australians that used to live in Iraq are saying that an effective secular Government was replaced with a dysfunctional fundamentalist one.
It's exactly like you said. We came in and set the foundation. Then the Iraqi's elected who they wanted in their government, but some of the people that they elected turned out to be crooked. I here everyday about some of the militias(sp?) here in the area that i'm in. The government here support's these militias, not monitarily that i know of,but in what they do. The malitas run around mafia style. they kidnap Interpreters, many of wich are found dead and only because they work for the coalition forces here in iraq. they also make the local nationals give them money with threats of rape and death of family members. We've also heard of them burning people's house's and takeing their livestock for not giveing them money. The local nationals that aren't part of the militias want the new government replaced in order to help stop the militias. The local nationals here are glad that we took saddam out of power, but since the new government they now live in fear of the militias instead of saddam now.
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-
Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-
SILVER Member
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Posted:
Actualy they seem to use the word "gay" when they see me doing poi, but when they see me doing it with Chemlights (glowsticks) they enjoy it. go figure?
Written by: Yell fire!
Violently Tame, on a lighter note, what is it like being a poi spinner in the US Army in the middle of a war zone?? :-)
I assume most typical soldiers would find it kind of weird!
Actualy they seem to use the word "gay" when they see me doing poi, but when they see me doing it with Chemlights (glowsticks) they enjoy it. go figure?
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-
Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
According to the US Army 5% of insurgents arrested have not been Iraqis. They believe that the total percentage of foriegn insurgents in Iraq is 10% tops.
Most of the insurgency in Iraq is due to non-Iraqis (or foreign professional terrorists or arab jihadi freedom fighters - whatever you want to call them) in the same way that most people on earth are white middle class Christ worshipping Americans.
Written by:
violently tame
I changed " Most of the violence" to "Some of the violence" because ,truly, I don't know what entirely go's on here in iraq. So it would be unfair and un truthful of me to say "most of the violence" when i don't have a completly clear picture of what's going on here.
According to the US Army 5% of insurgents arrested have not been Iraqis. They believe that the total percentage of foriegn insurgents in Iraq is 10% tops.
Most of the insurgency in Iraq is due to non-Iraqis (or foreign professional terrorists or arab jihadi freedom fighters - whatever you want to call them) in the same way that most people on earth are white middle class Christ worshipping Americans.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
SILVER Member
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Posted:
OK, here i was wrong. I talked to some of the interpeters on the militias earlier today. appearently the militias are not supported by the government, but the government can't stop them either at this point due to lack of resources. The militias were origionaly started in order to help protect the people of iraq from the violence that was happening toward them. The militias consist of not only local nationals ,but also members of the police ,members of the iraqi army ,and iraqi national guard. then the militias, once realiseing(sp?) that they had more power than the police and what not, they went crooked and started doing organized crime type stuff.
Written by: Violently Tame
The government here support's these militias, not monitarily that i know of,but in what they do.
OK, here i was wrong. I talked to some of the interpeters on the militias earlier today. appearently the militias are not supported by the government, but the government can't stop them either at this point due to lack of resources. The militias were origionaly started in order to help protect the people of iraq from the violence that was happening toward them. The militias consist of not only local nationals ,but also members of the police ,members of the iraqi army ,and iraqi national guard. then the militias, once realiseing(sp?) that they had more power than the police and what not, they went crooked and started doing organized crime type stuff.
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-
Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
From who? Who was perpetuating violence towards Iraqi nationals?
Written by: Violently Tame
The militias were origionaly started in order to help protect the people of iraq from the violence that was happening toward them.
From who? Who was perpetuating violence towards Iraqi nationals?
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
SILVER Member
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Posted:
The local nationals were perpetuating the violence themselves. What needs to be understood here is that the Shiites and the Sunni's are in their own holy war at the moment.They attack each other because they are different sects of the same religion.
Originaly it was the Shiites that formed militias to help protest other Shiites from the Sunni's.Then the Shiites started getting out of control with the Sunni's, so the Sunni's formed militias in order to help protect themselves from the Shiites after a while the militias started to put the squeeze on there own people that they were supposed to be protecting.
EDITED_BY: Violently Tame (1150891091)
Written by: SethisWritten by: Violently Tame
The militias were origionaly started in order to help protect the people of iraq from the violence that was happening toward them.
From who? Who was perpetuating violence towards Iraqi nationals?
The local nationals were perpetuating the violence themselves. What needs to be understood here is that the Shiites and the Sunni's are in their own holy war at the moment.They attack each other because they are different sects of the same religion.
Originaly it was the Shiites that formed militias to help protest other Shiites from the Sunni's.Then the Shiites started getting out of control with the Sunni's, so the Sunni's formed militias in order to help protect themselves from the Shiites after a while the militias started to put the squeeze on there own people that they were supposed to be protecting.
EDITED_BY: Violently Tame (1150891091)
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-
Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
The solution, of course, is to convince them to convert the same faith so they will have no reason to fight any more.
Or we could just kill them I suppose...
The solution, of course, is to convince them to convert the same faith so they will have no reason to fight any more.
Or we could just kill them I suppose...
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
What faith would you propose?
What faith would you propose?
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Yeah, well that solution mr Patriarch917 has really backfired on America this time. Just like it did last time, and he time before that.
You guys are so out of your depth in foreign politics that it’s embarrassing for the rest of the world to watch. Espercially as you seem to think force is the solution to everything. God, what a mess you created this time. Is America prepared to take responsibility for the reign of terror that Bush has brought to the world?
I doub't it. It's easier to blame other peoples.
There are two main groups of Muslims: Sunni Muslims make up 90% of the world's Muslims. The other main group are the Shi'ite Muslims who are particularly strong in Iran. Together with Judaism and Christianity, Islam is one of the three Abrahamic Faiths or Religions of the Book BBC
Yeah, well that solution mr Patriarch917 has really backfired on America this time. Just like it did last time, and he time before that.
You guys are so out of your depth in foreign politics that it’s embarrassing for the rest of the world to watch. Espercially as you seem to think force is the solution to everything. God, what a mess you created this time. Is America prepared to take responsibility for the reign of terror that Bush has brought to the world?
I doub't it. It's easier to blame other peoples.
There are two main groups of Muslims: Sunni Muslims make up 90% of the world's Muslims. The other main group are the Shi'ite Muslims who are particularly strong in Iran. Together with Judaism and Christianity, Islam is one of the three Abrahamic Faiths or Religions of the Book BBC
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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