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linden rathen
linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 2nd Mar 2005
Total posts: 6942
Posted:ive recently been reading somthing positive (a web comic) and they mentioned pro-ana - intrigued i did some research and found this is it just me or is this slightly wrong?



i also saw this in the philosophy section of the and it made me laugh



 Written by: plague angel



Don't believe everything you are told ... by anyone.



... question everything ...

... do your own research ...

... form your own conclusions ...



If the majority believes it, it is probably wrong.





murder is a good thing then? wink



even better is the "know thine enemy page" in which i found this quote



 Written by: plague angel



While it is true that fiber is an important part of your diet, even necessary to protect you from some diseases, carbohydrates themselves are not necessary. There are "essential" fatty acids and "essential" amino acids (from protein), however there are no known essential carbohydrates.







now i havnt done biology or food studies etc for a while but im pretty sure carbs in some form are needed...


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maus
maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia
Member Since: 14th Jul 2005
Total posts: 4191
Posted:This just screams dillusional...

"In the body, as in sculpture, perfection is attained not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. "


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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: coleman



there you go again!

you ask for something, i provide it, you move the goalposts rolleyes



you said "show that her views are irrational and illogical".

i referred you to illogical and irrational views that she has published.

yet, despite the fact that these claims are made in support of her main argument (and hence DO have a bearing on the ratinality of the concept that they support) its still not enough for you ubblol







Apparently you are trying to find a disagreement between us when there is none.

I said show that her views are irrational and illogical.

You pointed out one view that seemed to be so. (the majority is usually wrong)

I agreed.



(The statement about carbs was a statement of fact, one that I do not know to be either correct or incorrect.)



You now state that you believe her claim was in support of her main argument. I agree that it was supportive, but it is not integral. It can be taken out without detracting from her core premise.



 Written by: coleman



showing irrationality or bad logic in her 'core premise' (which you have referred to plenty, but have yet to explicitly define what you consider this premise to actually be) would not prove an illness either so there is no advantage if we were to show that it is illogical or irrational.







I have explicitly defined what I consider her core premise to be: that one may choose to starve themselves voluntarily, and not as a result of a mental disorder.



I have never intended to show that she is ill by proving her core premise to be illogical or irrational. I think that people may hold illogical and irrational beliefs without being diseased.



You have pointed out one significant fault with the website. Although she makes a distinction in one place between the disease of anorexia and what she practices, other statements on the site seem to suggest that she believes the disease to be voluntary itself. This is a huge discrepency in her statements.


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: wayne

I have explicitly defined what I consider her core premise to be: that one may choose to starve themselves voluntarily, and not as a result of a mental disorder.





and i have never contested that.



i clearly stated on page 3 that:  Written by: me

i actually agree with you, that if you choose to starve yourself for no particluar reason at all, you are a bit weird but have that right to choose what to do to your own body.





the discussion moved on to why it is very likely that the visitors to her website, and very possibly 'ana' herself, actually are suffering from anorexia and what bearing this has on the moral implications of the website's very existance.



but for some reason, you don't seem to want to move past the most innane of details... shrug





 Written by: wayne

You have pointed out one significant fault with the website. Although she makes a distinction in one place between the disease of anorexia and what she practices, other statements on the site seem to suggest that she believes the disease to be voluntary itself. This is a huge discrepency in her statements.





it is not merely 'a significant fault' - it is a clear statement that shows she considers the disease anorexia to be a lifestyle - and not simply the symptoms of the disease but the disease itself.



you think that several examples of contradictory statements regarding her main premise do not sufficiently demonstrate illogical or irrational thought processes?



i disagree strongly.





i further propose that several examples of irrational and illogical statements within the same publication (website) do indeed call into question the reliability of any other non-supported claims that the author makes.



this may not be the case in an american court of law, but we're not in a court are we?





as for her 'statement of fact' regarding fibre and carbs, and your inability to either qualify or disregard it due to your ignorance of what actually constitues a healthy diet (a serious omission when debating a topic that revolves around what constitues healthy eating i would say), please refer to this website and compare their statements with hers regarding the relative importance of the roles of fibre and carbs in a healthy diet.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:*goes cross-eyed and falls over* help
agreed that starving is wrong, that website promotes an unhealthy fatal-esque lifestyle
really all this is about now is can a person choose to starve themselves and not be mentally ill
just because you don't see your self as so does not make it true
these people are sick and propagating this to other sick individuals. they find comfort in being told they are right to choose this
question at the heart of the matter is : should sites like this exist and if so what can be done to help stop the spread of eating disorders.

I say tell every one in hollywood and other such places that we are not hiring them as actors until they get their weight into the normal range for people their age and height


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: coleman


 Written by: wayne

I have explicitly defined what I consider her core premise to be: that one may choose to starve themselves voluntarily, and not as a result of a mental disorder.



and i have never contested that.

i clearly stated on page 3 that:  Written by: me

i actually agree with you, that if you choose to starve yourself for no particluar reason at all, you are a bit weird but have that right to choose what to do to your own body.



the discussion moved on to why it is very likely that the visitors to her website, and very possibly 'ana' herself, actually are suffering from anorexia and what bearing this has on the moral implications of the website's very existance.




...and I have never contested that.

I clearly stated on page 5 that:  Written by:

The pendent arguments, such as the argument that children might visit her site despite her intentions, are persuasive enough to justify asking her to take down the site. It seems obvious that her site might encourage those truly suffering from a mental illness to think that there is nothing wrong with them, and that they should seek help. I suspect that most who agree with her were not normal eaters who decided to convert from sheer force of will, but rather girls suffering from a debilitating condition taking comfort in someone who seems to be telling them that their weakness is actually a sign of strength.

And Written by:

I suspect (especially from reading her emails) that this site is merely her way of justifying her own problem...




It seems that we are in agreement.shrug

 Written by: coleman


 Written by: wayne

You have pointed out one significant fault with the website. Although she makes a distinction in one place between the disease of anorexia and what she practices, other statements on the site seem to suggest that she believes the disease to be voluntary itself. This is a huge discrepency in her statements.



it is not merely 'a significant fault' - it is a clear statement that shows she considers the disease anorexia to be a lifestyle - and not simply the symptoms of the disease but the disease itself.




I consider a clear statement that shows she considers the disease anorexia to be a lifestyle - and not simply the symptoms of the disease but the disease itself to be a significant fault.
 Written by: coleman


you think that several examples of contradictory statements regarding her main premise do not sufficiently demonstrate illogical or irrational thought processes?



No, I dont.

 Written by: coleman

i disagree strongly.


No, you dont.

 Written by: coleman


i further propose that several examples of irrational and illogical statements within the same publication (website) do indeed call into question the reliability of any other non-supported claims that the author makes.



Perhaps, but we can also attack those claims directly as far as their logic and rationality.

 Written by: coleman


as for her 'statement of fact' regarding fibre and carbs, and your inability to either qualify or disregard it due to your ignorance of what actually constitues a healthy diet (a serious omission when debating a topic that revolves around what constitues healthy eating i would say), please refer to this website and compare their statements with hers regarding the relative importance of the roles of fibre and carbs in a healthy diet.




ubblol ubblol

The statement you refer to:

 Written by:

While it is true that fiber is an important part of your diet, even necessary to protect you from some diseases, carbohydrates themselves are not necessary. There are "essential" fatty acids and "essential" amino acids (from protein), however there are no known essential carbohydrates.



is a direct quote from a paper entitled Carbohydrates in Nutrition featured on Medical-library.net

You can see the statement here:
http://www.medical-library.net/sites/framer.html?/sites/carbohydrates_in_nutrition.html
br>
Like I said, I have no way of knowing whether this doctor is telling me the truth or not. I have compared his statement with the mayo clinic site you recommend, and can find no discrepancy.

Check her site again. She does not quote it out of context. She substantially reproduces the entire article, and gives you the source at the bottom of the page so you can check it out for yourself.

No, I do not think you can attribute irrationality or illogic to her because of that statement. She simply and accurately quoted something from what appears to be a knowledgeable authority on the subject.


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Phellan
member
Location: Kamloops, BC
Member Since: 20th Oct 2003
Total posts: 74
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917



The statement you refer to:



 Written by:

While it is true that fiber is an important part of your diet, even necessary to protect you from some diseases, carbohydrates themselves are not necessary. There are "essential" fatty acids and "essential" amino acids (from protein), however there are no known essential carbohydrates.





is a direct quote from a paper entitled Carbohydrates in Nutrition featured on Medical-library.net



You can see the statement here:

http://www.medical-library.net/sites/framer.html?/sites/carbohydrates_in_nutrition.html
br>


Like I said, I have no way of knowing whether this doctor is telling me the truth or not. I have compared his statement with the mayo clinic site you recommend, and can find no discrepancy.



Check her site again. She does not quote it out of context. She substantially reproduces the entire article, and gives you the source at the bottom of the page so you can check it out for yourself.



No, I do not think you can attribute irrationality or illogic to her because of that statement. She simply and accurately quoted something from what appears to be a knowledgeable authority on the subject.







Let me give you an accurate and reliable source on the "Essential" aspect of Carbohydrates.



 Written by:



"The more hydrogen atoms that can be strippped from a "fuel" molecule, the more ATP that ultimately can be produced. Carbohydrates are rich in chemical energy because they contain strings of

........|

(H---C---OH) units. . . .

....... |



As the sold building block of both starch and glycogen, clucose is a key molecule in the energy of metabolism of both plants and animals. The free energy released by the complete oxidation of glucose is very large:



C6H1206 + 6O2 ---> 6CO2 + 6 H2O

Delta G = -686 kcal/mol



By Comparison, the free energy required to convert ADP to ATP is relatively small:



ADP + Pi --> ATP + H20

Delta G = +7.2kcal/mol



It is evideant from these numbers that the complete oxidation of a molecule of glucose to CO2 and H2O can release enough energy to produce a large number of ATPs. . . ."

p.107 Karp, Gerald. Cell and Molecular Biology: Concepts and Experiments, 3rd Edition. 2002. John Wiley & Sons Inc.







There are no "known" essential Carbohydrates because there are no specific distinctions like those found in Amino Acids or Fatty Acids, where our bodies can produce some of each type, but not others which we require for our metabolism to fully function.



Carbohydrates as a unit are not "produced" by our bodies, a very specific differentiation. Humans do not produce Carbohydrates for use in cellular construction in the way that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are used. Carbohydrates are CONSUMED in the production of ATP, which is effectively the molecule that produces energy in our bodies and allows all cellular activity that requires energy to function.



What she has done is used shoddy pseudo-science to make a misleading claim. What she claims is "true" in the sense there are no "essential" carbohydrates, however what she neglects to mention is that the term "essential" when relating to Fatty Acids and Amino Acids indicates that those are molecules which our body is incapable of producing. Our bodies do not "produce" carbohydrates per se, we break them down and use them to produce new molecules. Without carbohydrates those functions cease, thus in comparison Carbohydrates as group are ALL essential, and require no "non-essential" and "essential" classification. The only difference in Carbohydrates are the ease and ability we have in aquiring the required Glycogen molecules from their chemical makeup.



To further elaborate the difference:



Carbohydrates are Defined by their H---C---OH chains, higher is better and indicates a larger source of energy for our bodies.



Fatty Acids are defined by:



CH2OCO-R

|

CHOCO-R

|

CH2OCO-R



And Amino Acids are defined by :

a Amino Group a Carboxyl Group

....H.................R

....|..................|

H-N+-----------C--------C----O-

....|................|............||

....H...............H.......... O



The "R" in both Amino and Fatty Acids indicate the various Chemical Chains that differentiate the Amino Acids and Fatty Acids from each other.



That "R" chain is what makes an "essential" fatty acid differ from a non-essential one. As you can clearly see, there is no "R" chain in carbohydrates, and as such the claims of the websites author has made a factually incorrect statement comparing Carbs to Fatty Acids and Amino Acids.


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linden rathen
linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 2nd Mar 2005
Total posts: 6942
Posted: Written by: DSM-IV Criteria for Anorexia Nervosa


1. Refusal to maintain body weight at or above a minimally normal weight for age and height (eg, weight loss leading to maintenance of body weight less than 85% of that expected or failure to make expected weight gain during period of growth, leading to body weight less than 85% of that expected).
2. Intense fear of gaining weight or becoming fat, even though underweight.
3. Disturbance in the way in which one's body weight or shape is experienced, undue influence of body weight or shape on self-evaluation, or denial of the seriousness of the current low body weight.
4. In postmenarchal females, amenorrhea ie, the absence of at least three consecutive cycles. (A woman is considered to have amenorrhea if her periods occur only following hormone, eg, estrogen administration.)



Boo I did read your post my point is that it is hard to draw the line between anorexia and voluntary starvation. According to pro-ana anorexia becomes a lifestyle choice where points 2 and 3 of the above list are void and all that remains are the signs that the person is starving.

So at what point does someone saying I dont want to be fat become a fear? And how do you test someone for fear or disturbance? Both are subjective and solely reside in the persons mind.

I think the problem comes from the fact that the site is pro ana as apposed to pro-starvation as you yourself admitted it is possible to starve yourself, so why cant the people who use pro-ana be starving themselves? You cannot make a blanket statement that

 Written by: DrBoo


[ana] is a mental illness and the girls (usually) on these sites believe that they are masters of their illness, free from the desire to get rid of it.



im inclined to agree with coleman that it is a mental illness when they cannot/will no display their abilty to choose


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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Linden,

I agree with what you say about point 2 - though to be honest, having an intense fear with something associated with your lifestyle usually means you're overdoing it by quite a bit and should probably reconsider what your priorities in life are.



Point 3, there's a difference. If it was a conscious lifestyle decision, you'd get people saying "I'm skinny. Dangerously skinny in fact. But still I want to get skinnier." What you do get instead is the "you fat cow" attitude like in what Jo posted - people think they're fat when they are not. Same with the "denial of seriousness of low bodyweight".



And even if you were right about points 2 and 3, 1 and 4 would still be standing, and 2 out of 4 points is definitely a cause for concern!


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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DrBoo
DrBoo

I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
Location: Cornwall
Member Since: 10th Oct 2005
Total posts: 453
Posted:Absolutely Brigit. We're back to the body dysmorphia again - if someone thinks they are fat when they are dangerously thin - and believes others who tell them they are too thin are lying - we can see that it is not just about wanting to be thin and starving out of personal "choice", instead there is a psychological problem underlying the situation.

When the world you look at is warped by your mind, how can you make a free choice about it?

The reason the girls on pro-ana sites would not, IMO, be considered people who are simply "voluntarily starving" is because of the warped way they look at the world and themselves, which the site covers at length.

I may have made my point several times here, I apologise....
Glad you read my posts though, Linden! hug wink


Boo x

I intend to live forever - so far, so good.

If it costs "a penny for your thoughts", but people give you their "two-pence worth", who is getting the extra penny?

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DrBoo
DrBoo

I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
Location: Cornwall
Member Since: 10th Oct 2005
Total posts: 453
Posted:Also, for me, its the dangers of promoting Anorexia Nervosa as a choice, and encouraging others to follow that makes me particuarily angry:
According to researchers at Stanford University and Lucile Packard Children's Hospital (LPCH) in Palo Alto, Calif., 40 percent of patients interviewed had visited such sites. Teens with an eating disorder who frequent these sites were hospitalized three times more than nonusers, the researchers said. Nearly two-thirds (61 percent) of visitors to pro-eating-disorder sites used new weight loss or purging techniques they learned about through the sites.
But then, I believe that the girls who write these sites are unwell, so although they make me angry it is the Anorexia I am angry with really, rather than the authors.


Boo x

I intend to live forever - so far, so good.

If it costs "a penny for your thoughts", but people give you their "two-pence worth", who is getting the extra penny?

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linden rathen
linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 2nd Mar 2005
Total posts: 6942
Posted:those are scary stats boo...

like i said before - i can see where the 'true' pro-ana people come from but these sites really are a bad bad thing - they're similar to sites that teach you how do commit suicide or self harm.


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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Wow, I just read six pages where coleman and pat didn't really disagree about anything except what the important point of the thread was (something linden if *anyone* can answer) and seemed largely unable to notice that fact. And a lot of people responded out of fear.

I'm not sure it was really worth reading six pages tongue

Anyway, I definately think there's a possibility for a person starving themselves and not expiriencing anorexia, but I think that they would be very very hard to find, because most people don't face reality.

But one thing I would like to ask people is, if someone says "I'm skinny. I'm dangerously skinny and I will probably die in the next five to ten years. But I think I'm beautiful like this and I'm happy..."
Do we get to label them mentally ill? Or are they just really fricking different? And can we really intervene? If they are actually aware of every problem they're giving themselves, if they've stopped losing weight but are maintaining a weight that is too low.... do we actually have a *right* to tell them no?

I admit it would be a weird situation where that would actually happen (where they really would understand, too, not just telling the doctors that). But I'm curious.

Anyway, it is a good question isn't it linden, where to draw subjective lines. There are a lot of people who are clearly mentally ill that are good at faking it as far as society at large is concerned, and there's a lot of people that arn't really mentally ill that just don't have the self-confidence and self-esteem to deal with life properly. And there's a lot of people who are mentally ill.... but how do you figure it all out? I think its still a very real question....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:I'm not sure we need to draw subjective lines at all.

Lifestyle choices that contribute to death without offspring will not long survive the processes of natural selection. If we simply mind our own business and let people make choices about what to do with their own bodies, the superior lifestyles will outbreed the inferior alternatives.

Those that starve for lack of food deserve our charity. Those that starve because of mental illness deserve our care. Those that starve because they want to should be allowed to pursue their own form of happiness. If it's really as great as she claims it is, then they will rule the world like she says. If not, the fad will die.


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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Good question, Kyri - do we have the right to detox a heroin addict? Or an alcoholic? Not against their will (unless they're in a state where they cause physical harm to others, as usual the non-physical harm gets ignored). But we have the obligation to show them what they're doing to themselves, and offer help should they want it, instead of putting up websites advising them where to get the money for the next fix from, how to best hide your addiction from your family and all that.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:Good point Kyrian, and I like what Patriarch and Birgit said too smile
Throughout this thread i've been thinking of zen buddhists who'll go into a cave and fast for days and weeks. Or Dr Usui (the founder of reiki), and I wonder what people would say if they did that here in the Western world at this time?
Its obviously not for beauty, but for spiritual ascension. But does that make a difference?
Does being spiritual make you saner than someone who is starving out of vanity?


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes


Does being spiritual make you saner than someone who is starving out of vanity?



ubblol


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Kyrian



Wow, I just read six pages where coleman and pat didn't really disagree about anything except what the important point of the thread was (something linden if *anyone* can answer) and seemed largely unable to notice that fact. And a lot of people responded out of fear.



I'm not sure it was really worth reading six pages tongue





thanks for your handy summary kyri rolleyes



one of the reasons i have been posting here is because i and others got fed up with wayne refusing to accept that the discussion could be about anything other than the critique of one specific pro-ana website's 'central premise' and his tactics of trying to disrupt any discussion of the topic apart from that premise.



that problem seems to be resolved since wayne identified what it is he was actually interested in discussing and us realising that a satisfactory conclusion had been mad on that within the first few pages of the thread - it just took another three pages to make it clear that none of us was arguing against wayne's agreement with the core premise but rather were more interested in discussing the implications of it.



wayne seems to has stopped posting obtuse and divisive remarks and, although he still seems to avoid acceptance or even acknowledgement of a counter-argument or any direct challenge of the concepts he presents (e.g. the true importance of carbs in a diet), he at least seems happy to continue with the wider discussion now or at least let it continue without disruption.



i apologise to anyone else that feels i have been wasting their time by trying to get patriarch to discuss this topic in what i would consider to be a reasonable manner meditate





as for the religious fasting comparison, i am unaware of any religion that supports permamnent fasting.



fasting for spiritual reasons is restricted to a finite period, has a clear spiritual aim and is more often than not, connected to an ancient religious festival or rite.



during ramadan for example, food consumption between sunrise and sunset is forbidden.

but so is drinking, using tobacco, chewing gum and any kind of sexual contact.



taken from ramadan.co.uk: "...that is merely the physical component of the fast; the spiritual aspects of the fast include refraining from gossiping, lying, slandering and all traits of bad character. All obscene and irreligious sights and sounds are to be avoided. Purity of thought and action is paramount. Ordained in the Quran, the fast is an exacting act of deeply personal worship in which Muslims seek a raised level of God-consciousness. The act of fasting redirects the hearts away from worldly activities, towards The Divine."



choosing to live on the minimum amount of food, for as long as you can survive, for absolutely no reason other than "thin looks better" still sounds weird to me and cannot be fairly compared with religious fasting.



i still feel very strongly that if this behaviour is intentionally exhibited over an indefinite period, there is a huge danger of nurturing the eating disorder that shares said behaviour.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:Thanks Cole, I was thinking the same thing, but just wondered what other people thought. hug

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:Thanks Cole

I'm sure I mentioned something about Ramadan on a previous post but you put it more consisely....


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:That's one of the things about legal training, it teaches you to explore ALL the possibilities, which, imo is exactly what Wayne was doing. No doubt some of his arguements were put out there just to be crushed. That's what I meant when I posted the "reading the man or the Lawyer" a few pages back.



Like the *just wanting to eat less* idea. Sure it's possible, but a closer examination of the website would set off alarm bells in the minds of most rational people. Take their galleries for example. The *Obsession* piece was originally made as satire and in the gallery it appears to be presented as a legitimate source of inspiration, likewise the *six pack* piece too.



Dr. Boo presented us with the criteria for diagnosing ana as a mental illness, and Birgit hit the nail squarely on the head in her last post when she questioned 'do we have the right to force treatment? In this case, no, I don't think we do. Force treatment exactly how? force feeding? forced counselling? A temporary solution I'm sure, but a cure, that has to be sought out, willfully, by the sufferer.



The Libertarian in me says leave the site up and running as is, What are the chances that someone could develop a mental illness from visiting a website. ( Mind you I wonder if I'd have this poi *addiction* if I hadn't discovered this site ). Most rational people would see the site for what it really is. I do think that in the name of responsability the site should have one of those *are you 18 or over * little check boxes on the front page, like that porn site I accidentally wandered into a few weeks ago. Or at least a page outlining ana as a mental illness and some suggestions as how to seek treatment when it becomes more than a lifestyle choice.



Edit..Oh, my bad. It does say all that stuff on the front page, Lesson learned

EDITED_BY: stout (1150227971)


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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:I agree that censorship of the site isn't the thing to do (i mentioned that before). However, if it gets to the point where people are passing out due to malnourishment, I think they should and most likely would be hospitalised.

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:something to chew on

when I went to see about my modeling potential...they didn't say I was too short (5'3"), they said I needed to lose weight (105). Not tone, not get in shape, not lose some inches, lose weight

and right that

you cannot force treatment. I have an addict staying with me right now, and my justex-bf is recovering. I have a friend in jail who as soon as he gets out will probably head across the bridge get something to drink and score. A dealer friend of ours just got picked up because he was dumb and smoking profits. But he will be rolling again tonight serving all over the city, and still being stupid (blunted driving). He's going to lose all he worked toward because he is hot and hard headed and not taking care of things like he should

And that just made me realize: think about rap and the whole lifestyle much of that promotes...


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:I thinks its really interesting that people here have fixated on symptoms and treatments rather than causes of anoxeria.

Faith mentioned Hollywood a while back, but this is still just the tip of the cultural iceberg.

Anoxeria for me is largely resultant of living under neo-liberal/late capitalist cultural formations. The heritage of Patriarchal (not meant to be a joke) Western European Capitalism combined with the Neo-liberal goal of commodification (ie a system that aims to reduce everything to a commodity- a product to be bought or sold for capital) unsurprisingly ends up creating women as objects.

Ironically the female object is the fixation of both male and female desire. Uber skinny, prosthetic females adorn the front covers of both male and female popular magazines... The male desire to possess the female, the female desire to be a desired commodity - that is to have a sense of value and self worth.

The female commodity generates a vast amount of wealth for sectors as diverse as publishing, film, clothing, pornography, dieting, and motorcars. As the economic determinism of neo-liberalism holds financial profit to be the sole directive of human production, this generative system of objectification is seen as a positive cultural trait.

While women are brought up in a society which advocates becoming-plastic, becoming-thin, becoming-botox and becoming-christian-dior cultural pathologies such as anorexia will thrive.

Only through reconfiguring the values we hold as socially beneficient to include self-worth, happiness, creative fulfillment and a hetrogenous construction of normative human physical appearance can arrest socially incoherent behaviour stemming from the commodification of the human


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:ummm not just western culture dear
chinese and binding feet
that one african culture with the rings around their neck so that if their husbands get mad they can take the rings off and they cannot support their neck and suffocate
it has been present in most (not all) cultures all over the world in different times, just different manifestations


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:You're right faith, each culture has their own ideals about what's beautiful.
Even micro cultures such as punks, chavs etc (!) have their own perceptions of beauty. A punk may see a split tongue and a mohawk on a woman beautiful, and a chav might see a pregnant 12 year old with gold sovereign rings as beautiful.
(note I said MIGHT, which gets me off the hook!)

Either way, in MY jo world, I see comedy as beautiful. The ability to make people laugh is the most precious thing to me. So I try (yes TRY) to be funny, and raise spirits a bit.
I guess we all want to be beautiful, but hopefully not as the cost of our lives.


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Stone, I think the reasons for that are:



1. That it's easier for someone who isn't anorexic to talk about things they can understand, like symptoms and what can be done, or specifically what we can do. I would never claim to understand the reasons, and if I had to wager a guess I'd say that most of the reasons are subconscious enough to be not that clearly visible even to anorexics, unless in hindsight.



2. The reasons you've listed seem familiar in a lot of addictions and disorders. Wanting to be popular and accepted doesn't have to lead to anorexia, it can lead to smoking, drinking, doing drugs, stealing, bullying... you name it. Or it can even lead to being popular! I mean, there are people who succeed, and if they're unhappy about just being what other people expect from them they don't show it, so how are those with a low self-confidence to know it's just a show? Maybe they even believe that their life is as great as everyone thinks it is!



Basically if we redefined the standards of society there might be a huge improvement in how people feel about themselves. But on the other hand, we live in a time with so many sub-cultures that almost anyone can find a group they actually want to be in and feel comfortable with. So why aren't they?



My idea is that most people want to be a little more than they are, no matter what great people they are to start with. A little more popular, a little prettier, a little richer, a little thinner, a little more extreme. And when that point is reached, another little bit from there. Maybe it's to do with having too much free time we don't spend on trying to survive like our ancestors did, at a time where those little bits of being "better" they could afford actually made a huge difference for producing offspring.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by:

written by faith

it has been present in most (not all) cultures all over the world in different times, just different manifestations



I take that unlike me you aren't talking about capitalism or neoliberalism

If you're talking about male domination over women then yes... However the difference here is that we are not talking about men having the power to 'take the rings off and they cannot support their neck and suffocate.'

Anoerxia differs in in my eyes in that it is not a social/cultural convention which is widely recognised by any cultural group- on the contrary it widely seen as a mental illness (as evidenced by the reaction to pro-ana here). The subject of the suffering decides to inflict physical suffering upon herself, with no threat of social retribution as she is not breaking with occidental custom by eating.

As such anorexia is not a tool for men to dominate women. It becomes a method instead with which women seek to commodify themselves - to become a desirable object for a man to posses. Thus for me anoerxia is less a western patriarchal social custom than part of the objectification and commodification of everything on the planet which the central doctrine specific to western neo-liberal capitalism and its cultural formations.

Does anyone know about any other societies which suffer from girls voluntarily starving themselves? I'd be interested to hear more if you do.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:i agree with dream that the existance of the disorder as it exists today is exacerbated by the pressures of the political-economic system that its sufferers live within.



i do however think it has roots way deeper than neoliberalism and would disagree that the reasons for its existance are largely political-economic and are rather, mainly sociocultural.



for example (and suprisingly not especially contradictory to what i said earlier about religious fasting rituals being incomparable to a.n.), one of the earliest example of intentional starvation in western culture was the medieval rite of a woman fasting to indicate the depth of her faith.



another good example is that during victorian times, women were actively encouraged to fast in order to fit with the ideals that the fashions of the day dictated (is this the origin of 'pro-ana'?).



you could well say that these examples both show evidence of the commodification of women, but i think you'd be hard pushed to show that it was a neoliberal capitalism system that initiated these attitudes...





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:and why do some of them feel the need to do it, because they have been taught that they are nothing without their looks, ugly girls don't get the guy and beauty is dependent on culture which for much of time has been dictated by the patriarchs
not necessarily in support of me saying that it is not a western unique situation, but good reading...thinkers

sorry if i repeated some...

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p990238.html
br>http://www.cyberpsych.org/pdg/pdghist.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract
br>http://www.something-fishy.org/words/artical_020.php
http://www.btinternet.com/~Negativecharisma/bodies/bodlist.htm
br>http://adam.about.com/reports/000049_2.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:From the idea that the self is not given to us, I think that there is only practical consequence, we have to create ourselves as a work of art. (Foucault 1983: 237)



Perhaps the self-starver is recreating a sense of self, but a self which is not based on a stylised notion of beauty. It maybe a self which is distant enough from our current culturally constructed notions of aesthetic beauty, outside the dictates of style, to not be merely a reflection of fashion.

Perhaps it appeals to the timeless image of the thirteenth-century Catholic saint or the Eastern ascetic rather than the twentieth-century fashion model?

Certainly anorexia/self-starvation challenges our sense of rationality and our twentieth-century Western sensibilities.


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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