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Forums > Social Discussion > One more nail in the American coffin

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Interesting Read


I thought this was over long ago...but what I find most interesting is that it was a white kid denied access to a school. Luckily it seems to be isolated to two areas in the States, however, I am surprised to see that Seattle is one of them.
How much further back can we really go?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Please make your subject unique and meaningful

Hrmm... Yeah, I guess it didn't say that it should actually explain what the topic was. Well done. hug

Um... yeah... Affirmative action. A clear cut topic with a clear right and wrong answer. wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I just think it's a bit sucky that according to this article, they will be judging on whether or not kids can go to the neighborhood school due to race. I don't think it should be an issue. I think it is a step back 40+ years that we simply don't need.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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wonderloey


wonderloey

enthusiast
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates

Total posts: 255
Posted:*jaw drops to floor*

I'm surprised... Actually, stunned. Not surprised that someone has brought a case like this, but that it has been upheld..

Quite frankly, it makes me sick. Something as basic as education should be simple, straightforward - to all comers regardless of race, colour or creed.

Nuff said.


"You've gone from Loey the Wonder Lesbian to everyone wondering if you are a lesbian." - Shadowman

Yesterday is yesterday. If we try to recapture it, we will only lose tomorrow.

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Eh, what century do we live in?

Oh yeah, bush...

*Shakes head* if we're going to do quotas I am positive race is not the answer. To be honest quotas are kind of scary anyway. But, yknow, such are our lives these days it seems...


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:Bush may soon be creditted with overturning racism in school decisions. Justice O'Conner cast the deciding vote in saying that schools could make decisions on who to allow in based on race. Bush has appointed a new justice to replace her, one that is far more likely to end race discrimination.

I disagreed with the decision to allow schools to use race as a factor in letting kids in schools. I'm glad that the new court is more likely to get rid of that.


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Fathom
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

Fathom

member
Location: Online!, USA

Total posts: 103
Posted:Maybe i'm just nieve but I didn't even realize this was still an issue...

Kangaroo Island eh? I hear that place is really hopping!

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia

Total posts: 3415
Posted:Ah, so racism is swinging back the other way?

Just like sexism did/is doing?

It'll happen. If we make it easier for (race/group/whatever) to enter schools/workforce etc, then we make it harder for (opposing whatever) to gain same entry.

Say if the supreme court suddenly ruled that 15% of airforce fighter pilots must be female. Hypothetically, we'll pretend there are 85 male pilots at the moment. What happens if there aren't 15 females that want to be fighter pilots? What if female applicants miss the mark for entry? Do we lower standards just for the females? or is that sexism, but in reverse to the tradtional way?

I dunno if that's off topic or not, but it's my two cents. i think. I'm not sure, my brain seems to be not working so well at the moment.


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:I'll give you a better example. Asian Americans tend to perform very well on standardized tests. A particular law school may only let in about 200 students a year. If 100 Asians happen to have the best qualifications, should my law school simply accept them, or should they look at the "race" checkbox and say "hmmm, considering Asians only make up 2% of this state, we should not let most of these guys in, and instead fill the school mostly with whites, blacks, and hispanics."

The problem with this is by being racist, the school no longer actually accepts the top students. Thus, the Asians that didn't get in are forced to go to lower ranked schools, screwing up the curve in those schools, and hurting the students that should have done fine in the lower ranked schools.

Furthermore, the high level school has just let in a bunch of less qualified students, meaning they will not perform as well. While they may have been great students in schools that better fit their ability, instead they will be forced into a bracket that they are not educationally prepared for. They will burn out, and a higher number of them will fail. The other students will attribute their failure to lazyness or inherent stupidity. The students who fail will stop trying and think they are stupid, whereas they could have gotten good grades and excelled to their full potential at a mid level school.

Thus, racial discrimination hurts everyone. Who woulda thunk it. I'm glad that Justice Sandra has been replaced, and I hope the Bush appointees will vote the way everyone expects them to and do away with such discrimination at all levels of education.


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ickleMatt


ickleMatt

enthusiast
Location: L.O.N.D.O.N.

Total posts: 242
Posted:This argument has a long history in India; although here rather than race it is about caste, and has come up again: India to implement caste quotas

The general crux of the argument is that if there is social discrimination and these groups are disadvantaged, there it must take state action to rectify this. In India social discrimination against Dalits (low caste people) is endemic and in this situation many argue that only through a quota can these people overcome the disadvantages they face.

Having never been to the States, and most of the American people I speak to are liberals (they are after all the only ones who leave the country, and would want to speak to me wink ) I am not in the best position to say whether minority groups in the US face the same social discrimination. But hurricane Katrina has certainly shown the world that there is something structurally wrong in US society.

I'm not suggesting that quotas are the best way, I am very much of the opinion that they can have very negative affects. However, one way of dealing with the issue is to only include quotas when the number of places increases - so when the number of people to be enroled is to be increased by 5%, this 5% has to go to ethnic groups that are under-represented in the current student body (as per their percent in the catchment area).


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted: Written by: MiG


Say if the supreme court suddenly ruled that 15% of airforce fighter pilots must be female. Hypothetically, we'll pretend there are 85 male pilots at the moment. What happens if there aren't 15 females that want to be fighter pilots? What if female applicants miss the mark for entry? Do we lower standards just for the females? or is that sexism, but in reverse to the tradtional way?




I've seen that happen in local charities and politics... like, you have a committee of 5 to elect, and 1/3 (1/3 of 5 is stupid to start with but nevermind!) had to be female. There were 4 volunteers, 1 a girl whose biggest merit was to have slept with the MP. So just the type of girl that any self-respecting feminist would wish OFF the committee wink But because of the quota rule, 1 of the boys had to step back and 3 people had to do the work of 5.

Another example, a council of 10 people working with kids, again 1/3 had to be women. There were 13 volunteers, 4 of them women, who were taken on it without a vote or consideration of their abilities, while 3 of the men couldn't get in.

While I wouldn't want to be the woman who gets the position just because of the quote rules anyways, I don't think this is the way to go, and yeah, it is discriminating men.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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DoktorSkell
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

DoktorSkell

addict
Location: Van Diemans Land, Australia

Total posts: 475
Posted:America is a dying nation

Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted: Written by: Pele's link


a court that famously banned racial segregation in public schools in Brown v. Board of Education in 1954.



Am I the only one who found that amusing? Or is it horribly racist to laugh inside my head?

Quotas only make sense if the skill level of the person filling the job is irrelevant (kinda like the president wink).


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: DoktorSkell


America is a dying nation



So let me get this straight. America is now on the verge of eliminating racism in schools, and you take this as a sign that America is dying?

Or was the comment not meant to be understood in the context of the thread, and is just a random tidbit? confused


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KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:Race should never be an issue. I have a dream...

But money, that's another problem wink


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917



America is now on the verge of eliminating racism in schools,



Um... confused yeah.. right after we get this whole middle east thing cleared up...


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Tomorrw, right NYC?
It's okay, he evidentally didn't read the link before responding.
:rolleyes:


No Sethis...you are not the only one.
And bitterly ironic goes along with it the amusement.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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zamirii
BRONZE Member since May 2006

zamirii

newbie
Location: South Florida, USA

Total posts: 44
Posted:i agree that race should not be an issue in schools or government or society -- it's a sad fact that it is but we are slowly going away from it. it's just that everyone wants to get in, but how do we decide who gets in if everybody's in the same footing? a lottery system? like everybody who applied that semester gets assigned a random number and then the school draws a set and those students get in that semester with those that dont getting drawing preference on the next go? might work!

racism does cut both ways. it's not just whites against blacks/asians/hispanics/ET's. all of the above have a tendency to hold grudges for one reason or another against another. I was in the mall last week and this black teen in a group of all black kids said very loudly while walking in front of Saks "all the white people should <deleted> me". there was a group of mixed kids nearby that i think he was trying to provoke. i know it offended me, but i ignored it.
as long as you treat me with respect, I'll do the same to you is my motto.


Every Day I add another name to the list of people who piss me off

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Zamirii...I think the kids should go to the school closest to them. No lottery or selection process needed. It's all about geography.

That works here just fine.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:The problem with that method is that people of the same race tend to start to group together over time. Thus, if you always put kids in school by geographical area, you will tend to get racially segregated schools.

In response to this, they created "bussing" programs whereby kids would have to ride busses to schools far away, to try to get all of the races mixed together.


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:The other issue that arises is poor vs rich areas, something which has been combated a little in some states but not in others, making oppurtunities vastly different.

I see this as a far greater problem, really, racial & cultural diversity is ideal in many circumstances but not always possible. Relatively equal educational oppurtunities are the most important, imho.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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