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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > polyrhythm poi (plus assorted antispin ramblings)

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:this one has not been easy to write up but hopefully some of it makes sense to some of you that are kind enough to read it.



please ask for clarification if its required anywhere - i'm happy to talk more crap or come back and edit the main text to make it clearer if it needs it.



there's a few (hastily filmed) video exapmles dotted around and about - you'll find a clip wherever you see one of these: *

please try and download the videos (right click, save as...) rather than streaming them or my website will stop working hug



and so...





polyrhythm poi

===========




don't let the funny word in the title scare you - this is simply spinning your poi at different speeds.



first of all, you need to know what this is all about so you should understand at least what 'polyrhythm' means and how to tap the most simple polyrhythms out (e.g 3:2).



if that is complete gibberish or you just want to know a bit more about polyrhythms, click here to see a thread that will fill you in smile





i've tried giving workshops on this over the last year and found it near impossible to teach due to the base concepts being alien to most people (and possibly because i didn't have a full idea then of the best way to teach it, but we'll ignore that for now wink).



this thread is the first part of my revised workshop, followed by a description of the notation that i use to describe these patterns and work out new ones.



the aim is to get people to have a go at spinning their poi at different speeds and then to give us a way of describing what we are doing so that we (hopefully) have a better chance of sharing, both here and in the real world smile





okay, let's begin...

everyone's always banging on about learning the basics before the advanced stuff and blah, blah, blah...

funny enough, i think that lesson is especially important when dealing with this area of poi.



there are two major techniques you can employ to vary the speed of your poi:



variable radius and variable speed



variable radius involves moving from say wrist circles to elbow or to full arm circles, thereby moving the poi head further away from the centre of rotation.



variable speed involves adding and taking away speed from the poi head by changing the amount of force you apply to keep the poi spinning (this is by far the harder of the two techniques but allows for far more variation).



for the geeks: the the first technique changes the linear velocity (while keeping angular velocity constant) and the second technique changes the angular velocity - big up the geek massive, seen? wink





here are two basic exercises to illustrate these concepts:



exercise one | variable radius - side circles with 2:1 poi *

spin parallel wrist circles in wheel plane.

now make one of those circles into a long arm circle but try to keep the (linear) speed of the poi constant.

because the long arm poi is spinning in a bigger circle (and therefore travelling along a longer path), you should find that just spinning a larger circle adjusts the speeds, so that the poi spinning wrist circles does two beats for every one beat of the full arm circle.



remember how it feels to tap out a 2:1 rhythm with your hands and concentrate on getting the simultaneous beats (the big circle beat and every other small circle beat) to hit at the same time.



try it on both sides i.e. try the big (slow) circle with your other arm.



things to watch out for:

- don't let the arm spinning the big circle speed up.

- don't put an extra beat in at the top of your big circle (your hand will probably want to do this by itself, especially if you've been playing with flowers a lot).





exercise two | variable speed - side circles with 2:1 poi *

this is most definitely the harder of the two techniques.

to begin with, don't worry about speed ratios and getting the rhythm right.



start by spinning parallel wrist circles in wheel plane again and just play around with speeding up and slowing down one poi whilst keeping the other one at a constant speed.



when you start to feel some control over the independent speed of your poi try this:



spin parallel wrist circles in wheel plane.

just after a beat hits (i.e. just after your poi pass the lowest point on their circles), speed up one of your poi to twice its original speed, and into hitting the beats on a 2:1 rhythm.

you should eventually be able to make this speed adjustment within the time it takes the slower poi to do one beat.



describing that beat by beat:

begin with both poi at the same speed (both hit beats at the same time)

immediately following a beat, increase the speed up one of your poi (hence it does an extra beat on its own).

on the next beat both poi should hit at the same time again and from there on, you should be hitting a 2:1 rhythm smile



try slowing the faster poi back down so that you slow straight into a normal (1:1) speed ratio - really aim to hit those beats.



mastering this technique of speeding up and slowing down poi to change and obtain specific speed ratios over the space of one beat (that's the beats of the slower speed poi, otherwise referred to as the 'base beat') is vital if you really want to play with polyrhythm poi.





playtime

right, once you have those basics down, have a go at putting them to use:



play lots with spinning two static circles anywhere and dropping into and out of 2:1 rhythms over the space of one base beat - remember to try it with both hands.



try the same thing but use the variable radius technique to vary the speed ratios.



try the two basic exercises above with poi 3:2.



spin side circles poi 2:1, and try turning 180 degrees, ensuring that you keep the speed ratio before, during and after the turn.



reels, poi 2:1 *

don't freak out about spinning a pattern!

spinning poi 2:1 reels isn't much harder than poi 2:1 side circles:

spin the poi 2:1 side circles, turn 90 degrees, crossover planes for every base beat smile

try turning with this pattern too.



reels, poi 3:2 *

don't freak out that you're trying a 3:2 pattern!

again, this is easier than it sounds, especially if you do it like this:

for the poi spinning 3 circles, spin one beat in front at the hip, one behind at the shoulder and one behind at hip - the other poi just does normal hip reel circles, one in front at hip, one behind at hip.

spin this so that the beats coincide when the faster poi is doing the front hip circle (the other poi should be hitting the rear hip circle).



for those that like flowers and and fancy a bit of a challenge, try spinning some flowers with 2:1 poi.

don't forget to count your beats at the centre (as the poi passes your arm).

the poi spinning at the faster speed should do twice the number of petals as the other arm does - there are some lovely new flower patterns in there smile





so, you may have noticed that everything so far feels distinctly one-sided - these patterns have all been asymmetric.



that was always going to happen if we describe what we are doing by saying poi 'a' is going at twice the speed of poi 'b' - to get a symmetrical pattern, we would obviously have to swap the speeds of poi 'a' and poi 'b' at some point.



well, hopefully you've been trying some of these variable speed patterns using your weak hand as well as your dominant one because here's an example of a simple symmetrical polyrhythm pattern... smile



my first symmetrical polyrhythm poi pattern - video of ttn variations (described below) here *

spin a forwards butterfly or better, a forwards thread the needle.

now spin one of the poi in a long arm circle, thereby slowing it down so the other poi does two circles in the same time as one longarm circle is completed.

you may find it easier to spin as 3:1.

its fun to see see how high you can get that ratio - spin those wrist circles as fast as you can!

just for a laugh, try and spin it the other way too i.e. spin long arm circles with the slow poi devil



when you have this pattern solid on both sides, try switching which hand does the big circle on every long arm beat.



this is a 2:1 thread the needle smile



the pattern should end up as:



2:1 ttn - right poi spins long arm circle while left spins two wrist circles, when the long arm hand passes the other hand (through the normal ttn hand position) and the beats coincide, switch so that left poi spins long arm circle while right spins two beats. repeat.





so, now we have an idea of what techniques we have to create these patterns, we can finally get on to how to best describe them... smile





here comes the sciencey bit...

first off, feel free to skip this bit for now if you're not interested ubbrollsmile



i have found three methods to describe polyrhythm (x:y) patterns that cover just about all the patterns i can spin (and suggest loads more that should be possible).



i'll quickly summarise them here so we can use them to easily describe the patterns we come up with smile



poi x:y *

the x:y ratio refers to the beat ratio of one poi to the other.

e.g. poi 2:1 means one poi does twice the number of beats that the other does, all of the time.



planar x:y *

the x:y ratio here refers to the beat ratio between two (or more) planes.

e.g. planar 2:1 [back wallplane:front wallplane] means that a poi in the rear wallplane will spin twice the number of beats as one in the front wallplane.

or, to say it another way, when a poi is behind you, it spins at twice the speed as in front of you.



positional x:y *

the x:y ratio here refers to the beat ratio of a certain position(s) in a pattern relative to the remainder of the pattern.

e.g. 3bt weave with positional 2:1 [whenever a hand is crossed over on top of the other arm] means that when a hand crosses over the body on top of the other arm it should be spin at twice the 'normal' speed (or 'double the base beat' if that makes more sense to you).

this results in a symmetrical, 4bt pattern with 3bt arm movements - we like that.





some things to note about these methods of description are:



they are not deterministic by any means i.e. they don't tell you what is and isn't possible, they just describe what's there already quite well.



there are a few patterns that can be described just as well using one of these methods as another.

still, as the moves get more complex, usually one of the methods will yield a far more concise description than the others.



often, attempting to use a method to describe a pattern that it can't adequately describe will lead to a nice variation instead smile



there are a few (complex) polyrhythm patterns that require the beat ratio to be split across particular sections of a plane to describe them completely - this method of description is like a mix of positional x:y and planar x:y but it is far from ideal.



there are a few moves that do not fit neatly into one of these three description methods at all and seem in fact to defy any concise description.

i'm hoping that means i'm missing a more general way of describing these patterns.

i have a good feeling that true polyrhythm poi is closely interlocked with advanced crossover theory.

and maybe that will reveal itself at some point in the future when we have delved deeper... umm





ubbrollsmile



right, that's it meditate



most important with all this stuff - don't forget to smile now and then biggrin





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Good to know that Sui. Thats kinda what I expected but as I have yet to try it, I wasnt sure.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:icon - try this one:



planar 2:1 [backwallplane:frontwallplane] btb butterfly waistwrap.



spin a btb bf ww.

whenever a poi is in the rear wallplane do two beats for every base beat (i.e. spin at twice the speed).



carries confuse this definition a little (since they pass through two planes in one beat) but i just spin them at the the front wallplane speed as that's where they start and end.



there's lots more in the bank... ubbrollsmile





 Written by: Suibom



One of the things about polyrhythm flowers is that they seem alot more affective for long shutter photographs rather than live spins.



I guess we'll just have to play with it and see smile.



Peace,

- Sui





glad to hear you;re having fun playing with the polyrhythm flowers and i totally agree with what you said there.



video with trails is kind of an in-between and would be the best way to present polyrhythm flowers i reckon.



something that could look great live is if you switch the speed ratio when your arms are vertical.



you would get (for example) a flower with twice the number of petals behind you as in front smile



speed changes during long arm moves are stupidly hard to get in time though.



i have more video links edited and ready to be uploaded tonight (poi 2:1 and 3:2 reels) smile





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: coleman


cool - i hadn't even started spinning poi six years ago! biggrin

i was going to say that i can't believe no-one has bothered to write it up in all that time, but from what i've seen over the past couple of years as far as how few people actaully spin patterns like this is concerned, its not so suprising.

boleadoras indeed use lots of polyrhythm patterns and, i should think, and obviously have the big advantage of aural feedback which helps solidify the techniques - being able to hear what beats you are hitting is almost priceless when dealing with muliple rhythms.

interestingly, boleadoras tackle this area of spinning from the opposite direction - the rhythms required almost entirely dictate the patterns, rather than choosing a pattern and then investigating which polyrhythms apply to it (as we tend to do with poi).

do you know if boleadoras has a written notation at all pele?

drum sheet music would work i guess but is obviously far from ideal.

hug


cole. x



Hey handsome...sorry it took so long...

I think it all goes back a bit to (no offense, but this is how it USED to be)...we simply didn't care to write it down...we wanted to do it instead, ya know? We'd simply say..."Hey try moving both poi at varying speeds at opposite axis and see what happens. It looks beautiful."

Back when the community was soooooooooo small it was full of more pro-ey type people we talked about experiences more than what we figured out, and even when we figured it out we'd generalize it and let each person figure it out (which meant it was all different when we got together). Thus things like this, like "air wraps", like wraps, throws, physical influences, on and on and on were done years before they were on here, they just weren't broken down to be written out. We had a real "show me" attitude and if you couldn't Congrats! Same goes with tools. We'd "invent" them but not break it all down on bb.

I think that between people taking the time (the copious amounts it sometimes takes especially...nice job! wink ) and how easy it is to upload videos it makes it easier now...ya know? I think the difference is pretty interesting and cool.
But all of that was offtopic sorry!

I have never seen notation for Boleadoras, and I do use them. I think the major difference with Boleadoras and this is that the complex rhythms are achieved through body movement (footwork) as well as the instruments themselves. If you were to put them into standard drum notation the boleadoras would be the duns and the feet the tekas. However, that is not fully correct, but it is the closest I can come to making sense. smile

I don't think that you have to find a rhythms and see how the polys fit in. Truthfully, I think that is a limiting.
I agree with counting out the rhythms as suggested but I also think it takes an entire shift in thought for most people. The poi need to be thought of as instruments and not tools. The right would be the dun, the left the teka..for example.
When that is done it can be combined limitlessly...starting like all with basic patterns then moving to complex.

This is how I envision any style of poi rhythm, which perhaps means I am stuck mentally on the name of what you are doing (polyrhythm means musical to me) instead of how you mean for it to be done.

For example...I might represent a Beledi (Dun Dun Teka tek Dun teka tek) as an upward stall, an upper arm wrap, a fwd stall on the right, with the left spinning in varying speeds the teka rhythm, fast on rhythm, slow during the duns.) It's complimentive.

You could also choose for one poi to be rhythmic and the other to be a-rhythmic. It's something I've been working with but have no idea how to describe (damn old head. wink )

So...like I said before, it might not even be close to what you are creating and I might just be caught up on names. I dunno.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:hey pele, cheers for your reply.

as for the first part, its actually really similar to my journey here (except hop has been present as an extended community for my entire poi career):

i found my first multi-speed move about two or three years ago and played with a very few people who did them too - we didn't even start to consider how they could be described discretely.

i soon picked up more and more patterns where the poi were moving at different speeds but the theory that would help me to teach and describe them to others only started to solidify in my head last year when i started writing workshops for it.

i started off by trying to give hour-long workshops with a quick intro to the concept and then a session teaching the polyrhythm moves i liked.

but what i found was that i needed to spend *far* longer just teaching the absolute basics (hence the birth of this thread).

it was a big lesson for me in the difficulties of gauging how hard it will be to teach a new concept when you yourself have been doing it for a long time.

i like to share what i know in whatever form i can - i play with people, teach workshops, make videos and write up stuff on hop.

this is the first area of poi that i have specifically set out to do *all* of these things for.

smile


 Written by: pele

I don't think that you have to find a rhythms and see how the polys fit in. Truthfully, I think that is a limiting.
I agree with counting out the rhythms as suggested but I also think it takes an entire shift in thought for most people. The poi need to be thought of as instruments and not tools. The right would be the dun, the left the teka..for example.
When that is done it can be combined limitlessly...starting like all with basic patterns then moving to complex.

This is how I envision any style of poi rhythm, which perhaps means I am stuck mentally on the name of what you are doing (polyrhythm means musical to me) instead of how you mean for it to be done.



i think we're saying the similar things here?

polyrhythm does indeed suggest an element of musicality and like you said, its much more suitable to think of your poi as percussion instuments rather than just balls on strings.

the basic exercises in my first post teach the concept of each poi having its own beat - as you say, the right can be the 'teka' and the left the 'dun'.

however, this style of play made me spin patterns that became very 'one-sided' - the right was always the one that sped up and added the accented beats.

the bonus of restricting oneself to specific combinations of rhythms is that you can switch the instruments around at specific times in the rhythm so that the left becomes the 'tekas' and the right the 'duns'.

this gives the oppportunity for completely symmetrical patterns with your poi, whilst still taking advantage of the extra dimension that is independent speed.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Total posts: 1841
Posted:This post wast moved to trash.



lighting,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:all help video files have been uploaded to the original post now smile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:Colemhanshan, if you need hosting space for your vids, let monkey or I know and we will be glad to help out ubbrollsmile

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
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Posted:So, as a random polyrhythm challenge, playing with one arm giant bf (or long arm-short arm as i call it) whats the best ratio people can get on the long-short ratio?

4:1 is pretty tight, without spinning the 1, I can make 8 with the longarm but trying to keep the one to only a one is mucho tricky, usually ending up as an 8:2 (this annoys me...)

Looking forward to playing more with these when I see you next Cole!


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:
I play with 2(short):1(long), suits well for BF
and alternate extension.

Cole described 3 kinds of polyrhythmic spin,
2:1 is in term of beat, your 4:1 seems to be
in term of circles.

So you catch up then 4 small circles for one
long arm, me 2 small circles for one long arm.

lightning,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

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Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:The coolest move I've seen lately is that one Garthy showed Cole.



I can't explain it because I can't do it. I think it's 1:3 with the 1 as long arm and the hands kept together while move in a circle in front of your the same direction as the long arm....



The non long arm is antispun...



Maybe someone else can explain it... smile

EDITED_BY: Solas (1155299728)


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

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Posted:Is this the "Hybrid Polyrhythm Butterfly" I had in my Poly' tute recently?
I was wondering who the source of this lovely move was... I thought it was Garthy, but he denied it when I asked him about it at Play ubblol


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Posted:if its a bf (in wallplane) with one hand doing a longarm circle at the same time as the other spins a trifoil, then yeah.



garthy showed it to me at the ejc i reckon.



never really thought of it as a hybrid but i guess it is kind of...



it seemed to follow on from jonnny ucof's bigcircle/antispin flower thingies (same direction arms, opp direction poi: one arm does a longarm circle while the other spins a trifoil/quadrafoil) - see xavhan's images above for examples ubblove



which is one form of a polyrhythm flower.





spitz next week then sir...? ubbrollsmile





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Acciaio
SILVER Member since Jan 2006

Acciaio

Tangled into my spins
Location: , Italy

Total posts: 187
Posted:Hybrid??? confused
but the trifoil or quadrifoil do not need to be isolated??

Acciaio devil


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:ah, but with every antispin you get a free isolation...



its the difference between these patterns:


Non-Https Image Link




and this kind of pattern:


Non-Https Image Link

Non-Https Image Link






first ones have no isolation/periodic full head isolation (depending on your frame of reference) whereas the second patterns have regular isolation all the way through.



i reckon you'll agree that, with poi, its always the second kind of pattern that you get when you spin antispin? smile



it doesn't feel like you're isolating but the centre of rotation is quite certainly on the poi string and not at your hand.





cole. x

EDITED_BY: coleman (1161266908)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:I more called it a Hybrid as the hands stay together as they do in a hybrid weave... However, now you mention it, you could isolate the long arm one too...possibly umm

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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:...if you antispin the whole move - so the long arm isolates - i.e. instead of RH doing giant ACW, right arm moves cw isolating the RH poi, but with the LH "stuck to it" and 3:1'ing

I dunno, I don't have poi in my hands...


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simian


simian

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Posted: Written by: coleman

i reckon you'll agree that, with poi, its always the second kind of pattern that you get when you spin antispin?


i disagree, i can think of quite a few non-isolated antispin patterns i spin with poi.
although they tend to be half-beat sections bookended by other stuff, rather than full circles.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:So I think... you'd get the first type of antispin with the 3-hand, and a normal isolation in the other.

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coleman
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coleman

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Posted: Written by: simian



 Written by: coleman

i reckon you'll agree that, with poi, its always the second kind of pattern that you get when you spin antispin?



i disagree, i can think of quite a few non-isolated antispin patterns i spin with poi.

although they tend to be half-beat sections bookended by other stuff, rather than full circles.





got any examples dude?



as far as my understanding goes, antispinning a poi means you end up with either a partly or fully isloated poi (fully isolated meaning 'point isolation' or head isolation).



besides, if it only lasts for half a beat, can it really be described as an 'antispin pattern'...?





i've yet to see anyone spin a clean full cycle (or more) of a hypocycloid like in the first set of patterns above.



and i don't understand how antispin with no isolation at all would work with poi - even if the centre of rotation of the poi is your hand (from the poi's frame of reference), from the spinner's frame of reference the poi head becomes fully isolated at the points of the petals... shrug





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Richee
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Posted:Removed for crap.



:R


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simian


simian

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Posted:ok, take the pattern a/b=4 as below:

Non-Https Image Link


one half of the pattern can easily be spun, (left half/right half/top half/bottom half whatever) with the poi head tracing the red line (starting and ending when the poi is pointed right back toward the centre of rotation, and hitting the 'point' when it's facing outside the circle, away from the centre)
its when you try to continue the circle past that point that it gets wierd, cos you'd need to 'push' the poi down its length to continue, which doesn't work if you got floppy poi.

So i do other stuff, for example, reverse the direction of the large circle, so the poi head follows the dotted line back to its origin, then the pattern can go back into antispin and start again.

but do i have to do that? The fact that i can do both halves of the full antispin circle pretty easily gives the impression that i'm just having trouble with the coordination and control of "poinertia" required to join the two halves together.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:*ahem*
offtopic

Poly-rhythm thread
None of your anti-spin waffling thank you very much wink


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simian


simian

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Total posts: 3149
Posted:he started it tongue

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Acciaio
SILVER Member since Jan 2006

Acciaio

Tangled into my spins
Location: , Italy

Total posts: 187
Posted:ok it's off topic...
now I'm at work and I take an overview of the posts after mine.... :cofused:

Sooooo confused... I'm not english and I cannot understand some concepts...
I will thanx if someone would like to open a topic on this kind of intresting theorys or to link me something more clear pleaz!

Thanx in advance!

Acciaio devil


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:durbs - read the thread title properly mate wink



monkey - in my eyes, creating a shape that looks like just one of the pointy bits of those hypocycloids is more of an example of point isolation than it is antispin.



this is an area where the concept of antispin (as we consider it to be) doesn't really cut it.



to create one of those points as you described, one would move their hand in a straight line, no?



so for a/b=4 to be a fully spinnable antispin pattern (as we have defined it here), the poi would have to point directly outwards (away from centre of rotation) at each of those points.



when that happens, the poi head loses momentum at these points because although relative to your hand, it is still spinning at a constant speed, relative to the large circle (and the rest of the world) it is effectively stopping and changing direction at each of the points.





creating one hypocycloid-like point at a time is the pattern that is the best illustrator of antispin technique i.e. a stall that you exit with your poi still spinning in the same direction as it was before the stall - in fact, i believe you showed me that handy teaching method hug



however, doing it as a full pattern is super hardcore and impossible to do i reckon:



you start off doing stalls with same direction exits, cretaing an individual point for each stall - aiming to get a pattern like this


Non-Https Image Link




but once you start trying to link those stalls up smoothly, whilst at the same time trying not to let the poi head lose momentum completely at any time (i.e not actually stall the poi!) the pattern quickly turns into a more general hypotrochoid like this


Non-Https Image Link






or am i just tripping...? wink



cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:agreed, but thats not to say the first example is impossible, just well hard.

i thought you was saying "You cannot create hypocycloid points with poi (full stop)" and i was all like "eh, you what?!?"


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKS!



im just gonna spin really fast half nekid.... AND i'll get the girls... tongue



T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Acciaio


Sooooo confused... I'm not english and I cannot understand some concepts...
I will thanx if someone would like to open a topic on this kind of intresting theorys or to link me something more clear pleaz!



hey acciaio,

i don't think there is really a a thread on antispin pattern theory i'm afraid.

the side-discussion here is theory taken from this thread and applied to poi.

these compound patterns (hand movement pattern + spinning poi = funky poi head pattern) have quite different applications to poi and stick - stick is far less limiting due to its rigidity but there are a lot of things we can do with poi too...

i recommend just looking at the patterns, looking at the hand patterns needed to produce them and then just spinning wildly for an hour or so and see what comes out.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:if in doubt, flail.

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Railed to flower extension thread.



lightning,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Page: 1234

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