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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:this thread is to support (and reduce the size of) my upcoming 'polyrhythm poi' thread.

that thread will be finished in a few days time ubbangel





a polyrhythm is "a rhythm composed of two or more rhythms played simultaneously".



they can get horribly complex but we'll be only be dealing with the most basic ones here since they're the ones most easily applicable to polyrhythm poi and staff spinning.



try tapping the rhythms below out on a tabletop.



tap every time there is a little vertical line.



tap out the top line with your right hand and the bottom with your left - remember to practice the other way too of course smile





Code:

2:1



|..|..|..|..|

|.....|.....|





3:2



|...|...|...|...|...|...|

|.....|.....|.....|.....|







the numbers above the patterns tell you how many beats one hand does compared to the other, or the 'ratio of beats'.



so in the first pattern, your left hand does one beat for every two that your right hand does - 2:1



and in the second pattern, your left hand taps three beats for every two that your right does - 3:2





notice that for each individual hand, the spacing of the beats is even.



also notice that the individual rhythms come back into time with each other (each hand taps a beat at the same time) over a regular period of beats.





and that's pretty much all you need biggrin



if that's all clear, mosey on over to my polyrhythm poi thread (if i've got around posting it) for some ideas on how to play with your poi while applying these kind of rhythms.



------------------------------------



now, before the drummers come to get me, i should point out that 2:1 isn't strictly a polyrhythm.



but for the sake of reducing confusion to a minimum, i chose to include it here anyway tongue



if you'd like to read a more detailed description, this is a link to a very handy page, which explains polyrhythms more completely and gives a few proper examples:

the polyrhythm page



and if you want to hear a lesson on polyrhythms in action, listen to tool drummer danny carey - in fact, just listen to tool anyway ubblove wink

the track 'eulogy' still stands out as one of the best examples of polyrhythms in music that i know of (outside of jazz).





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:geek wink



I have some basic cole polyrythym poi on vid from berpoi, very tidy looking too I must say smile


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:All very interesting, but should this be in help? You're not really asking for help are you...or are you preempting any polyrythym support question that might be asked? wink

There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:yep, that's exactly why it is here.

i realised that i had to have an explanation of polyrhythms to reduce the "what?!??? i don't even understand what a polyrhythm is, let alone all the poi stuff to do with it!" posts in my polyrhythm poi thread.

so i took this bit out and put it in help smile

i reckoned posting it a few days before the other one wouldn't hurt.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:ubblol

I still feel the need to help though...erm...

What OS is it? Try rebooting...

wink


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:me too....ipods suck wink ubblol hug

Cole you shold get Dom to delete our posts and lock the thread so it doesn't get disrupted by idiots with silly comments every few hours ubbangel


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks coleman, but that poly rhythm page is a bit complex to me. Ive been using one of the rhythm notations for drumming: See Rhythm of the Week...Free Online Drum Rhythm Lessons

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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ickleMatt


ickleMatt

enthusiast
Location: L.O.N.D.O.N.

Total posts: 242
Posted:Cole,

How is your poly-rhythm juggling going?
two in one hand - three in the tother.


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jeffhigh
GOLD Member since Oct 2005

Member
Location: Caves Beach, NSW

Total posts: 89
Posted:Most basic polyrhythm is 2 on 3

LH X . X . X . etc

RH X . . X . . etc



Where X is a hit and . is a rest.

Not they line up every sixth interval



just noticed that is the same as your second example but you have used more rests

EDITED_BY: jeffhigh (1147837262)


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:dunc and sym - hug no locking methinks.
besides there are no useless posts, there are only bumps smile

stone - cheers for the link.
my friend jonny-o-moohaahaa (who taught me about polyrhythms in the first place) is learning a bit of tabla while he's in india.
its crazy sh!t smile

matt - my polyrhythm juggling still at the same stage as when you left.
four ball 3:2 (mirrored) is solid but no tricks as i haven't played with it since the play festival last year.
two in one hand three in the other is a five ball 3:2 which i can do, but only with the three balls in the right.
its not nearly as cool as the four ball stuff though smile

jeff - thanks for the post.
the reason i included extra rests when i wrote out 3:2 is so that the meter of the slower of the rhythms is equal in both examples i.e. the 'slow' beat in both polyrhythms is the same.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 2617
Posted:Source:

 Written by:

A cross rhythm consists of a main beat scheme (a purpose in life) and a secondary beat scheme (a perceived obstacle). Each beat scheme has a significance and function in making up the distinct cross rhythmic texture.

Let me paraphrase an old Anlo-Ewe song to further illustrate the real-life lessons inherent in the technique of composite rhythm.

The song says, despair is not only useful, it is vital. Those in despair recognize the facts of their existence, rather like a drowning swimmer admitting the water is there. If you block off the despair, you block off the joy. More simply, an avoidance of contrasting obstacles is an avoidance of the real challenges of life. It will only stifle progress.




This shizzle is another clue to the puzzle of the universe! weavesmiley

Where's it all going? eek

Let the decoding begin. cool


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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marco


enthusiast
Location: uk

Total posts: 328
Posted:
Been playing with polyrythms and poi for some time now,

mark


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: marco



Been playing with polyrythms and poi for some time now,



mark





me too! wink

i look forward to hearing about the ways you've discovered to play with this stuff too mark biggrin



the thread is coming along nicely although it has pretty much evolved into a long rant followed by a big move list ubblol



it should at least get the discussion juices flowing (which has not really happened on hop before regarding this area of spinning).





cheers for the link and quote james meditate





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:You also might want to explore the use of boleadoros.
They are spun like poi, are used as rhythm instruments and require polyrhythms (as well as work with hard shoe dancing).

I have been working with them for years.

Oh and Harmonic Whirlies. Those too.

The concept is quite old and has many roots, especially in Flamenco/Spanish dance.

Hope this helps. wink


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted: Written by: Pele

Oh and Harmonic Whirlies. Those too.



They look like vacuum pipes with a handle...oh no they are "Vibrational Healing Tools", oops! wink


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 2617
Posted:Traditional Maori poi is quite percussive. Mainly through bumps and slap backs (wraps that bounce without delay).

Shaker poi'd be really effective.

I have been brought back a pair of meteor like percussive toys from Ghana before. The balls on the ends are golf ball sized seed pods and made of hard seed type shell. Inside each shell is little seeds, which make it like a shaker. The string between them is about 4 inches long. You can play complex rythems with them. Noises including a loud sharp clack when the 2 balls colide and shakery noises... They're called posh posh (or something like that) but I can't find a picture on the web...

Sorry Cole, I realise this is a slight side track on the intention of this thread... ubbangel


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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ickleMatt


ickleMatt

enthusiast
Location: L.O.N.D.O.N.

Total posts: 242
Posted: Written by: coleman


four ball 3:2 (mirrored) is solid but no tricks



Not sure I know this. Can you explain furhter or a nice link? I'm practicing plenty of 4 ball at the mo - after neglecting in favour of 5 for a year.


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:two balls in each hand, fountain pattern.
first pair of throws is simultaneous but to different heights - one hand throws to around 6 ball height, the other to between 4 and 5 ball height.
each hand then just makes throws to these heights, keeping the individual rhythms in each hand even.

now you just need to make small adjustments to these heights until you get a nice 3:2 rhythm.

every second throw from the first hand and every third throw from the other should be simultaneous.

you can swap the height proportions on the simultaneous throw to make the pattern symmetrical (mirrored).

there are ways of calculating which siteswaps fit into this polyrhythm but i never got that far into it.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: DeepSoulSheep


I have been brought back a pair of meteor like percussive toys from Ghana before. The balls on the ends are golf ball sized seed pods and made of hard seed type shell. Inside each shell is little seeds, which make it like a shaker. The string between them is about 4 inches long. You can play complex rythems with them. Noises including a loud sharp clack when the 2 balls colide and shakery noises... They're called posh posh (or something like that) but I can't find a picture on the web...



We have a set of these..somewhere around here (prolly in the child's room, where all good instruments disappear).

If I can find them, I will take a photo.

The shortness of the string actually makes them difficult to do for some of what Coleman is discussing..but then again...I am FAAAAR from mastering them.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:So, whats next... Paradiddle poi? rolleyes

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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PyroWill
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

PyroWill

HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
Location: Staines

Total posts: 4437
Posted:You all are mental, can you really not explore hyperloops or antispin anymore?

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind

Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife

"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Good idea, Will. Anti-spin Polyrhythmic Hyperloops!

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Moohaahaa
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

Moohaahaa

enthusiast
Location: In Ger Land

Total posts: 382
Posted:Paradiddle poi smile



besh besht besht.



Or maybe flamacues or just flams, or ratama-whatsits, or, or......



Bollix. Stop playing drums for a few years, and you forget all the silly words. Maybe just one more, ummm, errr......



Well fine then just paradiddlediddle's will have to do.



But on a more serious note, this all sounds marvelous Cole. Show me when I'm back, I can't get past 2:1 ratio or maybe 3:1 with poi if I'm lucky, but havn't tried too much.



All sounds spiffing, I will come n play with you laters smile



AND, why havn't you posted up the rumoured polyrhythm poi thread eh? I looked as far as the third page in poi moves and it wasn't there so I can only assume you that you are the slackest man I have ever met, if not the slackest person alive hug





Some things you have to see to believe, but
Some things you have to believe in to see.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i have written nearly all of that thread now sir smile

however, it may need some video to accompany it if anyone is to have a chance of learning from it...

but you can do most of this stuff already anyway hug


you're right though jonnny - i am indeed a bit slack (even though i managed to get a copy of 10,000 days to you when you're over 4000 miles away tongue )

my slackness is possibly second only to meg's.

which is confusing since in this world of writing up spinning tutorials for publishing on t'internet, meg is possibly the least slack person in the world confused


i promise it will be posted here before play ubbangel


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Moohaahaa
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

Moohaahaa

enthusiast
Location: In Ger Land

Total posts: 382
Posted:OK well yeah maybe in some aspects of your life there's a distinct lake o' slack (word)

I s'pose you might've written some stuff about poi and maybe made it fairly understandable for the many folk, and maybe you taught the odd workshop, and well yeah there was that 10,000 Days business. What? You've got a job as well? And a house? AND a missus, I s'pose you'll be saying something like, yeah I qualified 7 balls loads of times now, it's starting to run pretty well.

But apart from that kind of life juggling and poi relatedstuff, ya definately slack :P


Some things you have to see to believe, but
Some things you have to believe in to see.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:I think jon is the slackest, cos he still owes me cd and dvd's for me sending him cd and dvd's and I bet me writing this will remind him once again so he can foget all over again...

Plus spinning poi TWICE as fast? That's definately not slack. Sort it out... Or perhaps you are spinning one twice as slow? In which case: good slackness! biggrin hug


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:yep - jonnycof is indeed uberslack.

i gave him 10 cds about two and a half years ago which he offered to chuck some moosick on.

about 2 months ago he gave me a lovely shiny dvd with lots of spiffy music and stuff on it.

but no computer would read it cos it had been banging around in his bag for too long rolleyes ubblol


and oddly enough meghan (is your last name 'solo'? cos that would be cool if it was), it turns out that there are two techniques for polyrhythm poi and if you measure the speed in terms of angular velocity, one involves slowing one poi down (while the other poi's velocity remains constant), and the other involve speeding one up.

i may have to name them 'slack' and 'notslack' in your honour now wink biggrin hug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:ubblol ubblol

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Moohaahaa
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

Moohaahaa

enthusiast
Location: In Ger Land

Total posts: 382
Posted:Well, sending me a pm may be one way of avoiding further 'slack' accusations Coleman Sprocket (Copyright Tom Jesus), however, not posting poi polyrhythm talky talkies can only lead to me implyong that you are in some way...

slack?

But anyway, i tried some stuff. Now i got basic 2:1 weave done with rh doin double. And a weird combo one that I'll have to organise in my head so I can organise it on a 'pooter.

And when doin this I have to slow one a nd spped one up to make it most comfy.

Rock!! (but only in 5/4 time whilst playing a 4/4 rhythm smile)


Some things you have to see to believe, but
Some things you have to believe in to see.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:here's something to keep ya going then...



instead of spinning a constant poi 2:1 in a weave (i.e. one poi spinning at twice the speed of the other), instead only speed up to 2:1 at a specific point in the pattern, then slow back down to normal again (i call this 'positional 2:1'):



spin 2:1 when you have a hand crossed over the body and on top of the other arm (the 'over' bit of the 3bt weave's over-under-back).



this way, the variable speed element is symmetrical *and* you get the spiffyness of spinning a 4bt weave but with your arms still only wrapping up as much as they do in a 3bt weave smile



so i have this job thing.

its my main excuse for the thread still not being finished.

i want a different job now thank-you please frown





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG

Total posts: 3415
Posted:you could always call one slack, and one anti-slack, just to keep in line with the whole anti-spin nonsense.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Page: 12

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