poirob2
member
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire, England
Member Since: 8th Jan 2003
Total posts: 43
Posted:I am writing this thread in part to spinners in the states to ask about whats going on over the at the moment, and also to draw attention to what seems to me to be dragonian and dam right ignorent policing over there.

I am refering to the "Reducing Americans Vulnerability to Ecstacy" bill which is or will be in the law in america in the near future. This R.A.V.E.(cute) act has contained in it some very worrying guidelines.

It will be/is illegal to:

"manage or control any place, whether permanently or temporarily, either as an owner, lessee, agent, employee, occupant, or mortgagee, and knowingly and intentionally rent, lease, profit from, or make available for use, with or without compensation, the place for the purpose of unlawfully manufacturing, storing, distributing, or using a controlled substance."

Punishment: 250,000 or 15-20 years in prison


This, to me is the most worrying thing suggested by this new act, simpily because it is attempting to stab clubland in the heart, or more specifically, the promoters. We wouldn't have a scene if promoters didn't organise it, and thats kinda hard to do when your locked up with a 16 stone guy called "Wendy"

Other things to come out of this bill includ the banning of "Drug Parafinalia"
Although the bill doesn't ban directly "glowsticks, dummys, u.v. bodypaint and bottled water", if they think (and they will), that the promoter is providing them with the intention of attracting recreational drug users, he again is held liable.
This could lead to promoters moving away from providing safe chill out rooms and (for christs sake) bottled water.
The truth of the matter is that you will never stamp out the "Drugs Problem", because there will always be people willing to take them, so the least we should do is provide ravers with a safe enviroment. And taking away their water is just asking for people to get killed.

Also, the act is in violation of the First Amendment, in that it targets a particular form of musical expression for prosecution based on content.

I think that this sort of election-year legestration is generated solely to calm the middle-American mothers who have been bombarded with grossly misleading media coverage of "The Killer Rave Drug".

And with only 27 deaths in the last FIVE years in the states, what the fuck is all the fuss about anyway?


Is this were Im supposed to write something interesting.....errmm.........AVOCARDO!!!!!!

Delete Topic

DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Yikes, that's frightening. I always got the impressions that American's had a strange take drug use compared to europe. Glad I don't live there anywho!!

Oh and your dead right by the way this'll kill more than save cause this won't make pills dissappear. There's been simaler criticism of government in europe for these reasons and they never did anything like this.

[ 17. January 2003, 04:00: Message edited by: deepsoulsheep ]


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

Delete

Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Honestly, laws like this are one of the many reasons I am considering moving out of the U.S. and changing citizenship once I finish my training.

I'd go sooner, but it's so difficult to do that it's just not worth it.

But this R.A.V.E. act flies in the face of everything that we were ever told that America stands for. Land of the Free my left gonad. It's become the Land of the Sheep. A country full of people who are willing to surrender their freedom for their safety, seemingly unaware that in doing so, they get neither.

They want to start a national database so that the government will be able to see my every credit card transaction, every check I've ever written, etc. And then people have the gall to call this the "Freest country in the world." No, the Netherlands is probably worthy of that honor, but not the U.S.A. Not anymore.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

SmallBoy - x
SmallBoy - x

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London
Member Since: 29th May 2002
Total posts: 2737
Posted:(*Hats off to Mike*)

Sadly, drugs have now been illegal for so long that if any government turns round and makes them legal, they've also got to admit that not only were they wrong but that they've also been lying to everyone for the last 50-100 years (depending on the drug)

The more arrogant and pigheaded the government (also referred to as the more developed/civilised)
the less likely they are to admit defeat.

Sadly it seems to be older/more out of touch with reality type people that end up in control, and they seem to think that the best way to control things (especially those that are dangerous both physically and to their reputation) is to attack it and drive it undergroun (and out of their sight) rather than by bringing it out into the open and trying to make it safe.

Personally I think anyone who WANTS to have power and control over things should be prevented from ever being in that position.......but that's just because generally they are completely unfit and just get there by having money/influence to start with. Democracy has lost all meaning too, if you have the choice between 3 major political parties and all of them are shit, and all their policies are tied up in getting votes rather than running the country how can you expect them to achieve anything????

Arrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (*Pauses to bang head against wall*)

No longer is it important to the "resposible" people that who we place our trust in, to inform us fairly, they make a decision and force everyone to go along with it with threats of imprisonment.

Just thanking my lucky stars that I do at least live in a society whereby I wont just "disappear" for my views.

[ 17. January 2003, 04:21: Message edited by: SmallBoy ]


Small Lardy Person In Disguise

Delete

toneman
member

Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 195
Posted:I agree it's a sad situation. More people are killed from using a cell phone that e. But the problem is, it doesn't specifically say e, and it doesn't specifically say electronic music. There's going to be a lot of pissed off promotors for rock/rap/blues concerts as well. This could essentially put the music industry into a CD distribution only industry.
And you've got to admit, their terms are VERY broad, so if you piss off the police, then you're screwed.
I think that what this is really aimed at is making more money for law enforcement. You see, here they get to keep what they confiscate, from cars to million dollar properties AND they don't even have to file criminal charges to take it. With funding scarce because of the economy, they're looking for a way to keep all those thousands of Po-lice men employed. In Dallas, the police were using an informant to bust people selling "cocaine". After about a year, they finally realized that all those record 'cocaine' busts were nothing more than ground up gypsum. They paid the informant about $250k, as well as let him work off his own sentence for cocaine distribution. They put about a hundred innocent people in jail. So, who is to say, that if a promotor COULD actually keep all the drugs from an event, that the police wouldn't plant stuff just to steal their property?
Which leads me to:
You make it fu*@#@ing illegal, so it's your friggin' job to enforce it. It's not a promoter, land owner, or DJ's job to make sure that people obey the law. That's what the police are for! So, essentially, the police are saying, "we've been trying to win this fight and can't, so we're gonna make you try and punish you if you can't." Why don't they make a law that states that if ANY drugs are found in whatever city, we're gonna take a police car from you each time. After all, aren't the police supposed to be enforcing all this stuff? It's essentially the same arguement, just with the coin flipped.

And finally, the "war" against drugs will never win. Take Israel for example. They have some of the strictest customs and broadest search powers anywhere, and they can't keep it out of their country. What makes officials think it's going to be different here?
There is a conspiracy with the police and privatized prison warehouse industry to keep people in jail because there's big money in keeping things illegal. Add politicians who scare people with propaganda to distract citizens from real issues, and you have what we've got today. The land of the meek and heartless, with greed as the motivator. After all, what will piss off an American more than cutting away income?


Delete

Gandhi Ganjamaster
member

Member Since: 30th Aug 2002
Total posts: 299
Posted:I agree, i agree, it sucks... BIG TIME

however, the now ex-govenour of Ill has freed all death-row inmates from having to face execution. finally someone who realizes that the death penalty doesn't work.
Bless your heart, Mr. Ryan.


Why?

Delete

FireSpirit
FireSpirit

Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
Location: South Lake Tahoe
Member Since: 29th Mar 2001
Total posts: 743
Posted:I just heard about it a week ago!

We in Salt Lake are having a Benifit RAVE on April 19 to rase Money for the defence. All of the Fire Spinners around here are going to be there. It sounds like a lot of record spinners (DJ'S) are going to be there too.

We are going to strike the heart of the "do gooder" community, the Mormons! Salt Lake is the Morman Mecca. They hate people who are having FUN. We hope to have a huge rave, all is invited!!

So if you are near Salt Lake in April, Please Help the cause.

~Fire Spirit


FIRE IS ALIVE!
IT LIVES AND BREATHS!
IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS!
BUT WE CONTROL IT,
AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!

Delete

Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:This has been hanging around for a long time.... i posted a thread on it a bit back, and i picked it up sometime last spring when it was first being proposed. The original language included a refernece to bottled water as drug paraphenalia, anyone know if taht is still in there?

anyhow, i've been annoying my congressmen, (writing/calling to suggest this is a bad idea) but i suspect it will be to no avail.

the RAVE act almost seems less scary now that that damn homeland security thing went through....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Delete

NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Perhaps if anyone in the US under the age of 25 voted on a regular basis stuff like this wouldn't happen.

But it's easier to buy a pack of Marlboros and a Budweiser and bitch about how big business controls the government during MTV commercial breaks.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:As the majority of you know, I am anti drug. I dont have all the answers or know how the war on drugs should be conducted, of course I have my own ideas.

I dont agree with this law. If you manufacture drugs, destribute, and store drugs in a place you should be held responsible. That is true with things like weapons too. (ironic point, I work in an armory that manufactures stores and destributes weapons hehe)

Should someone be held responsible if someone else brings drugs into their establisment? Hell no!!

If I owned a club, I would not strip search everyone that enterd just so that I could prevent someone with drugs comming into my place. I sure as hell would throw them out on the street if I saw them using drugs.

Another question is... will this law be enforced. There are some laws out there that are just there as catch 22s they are not enforced but if you break law A, then you have broken laws B-AA!

We will see how this goes, and it can be changed if we pull together and vote the change.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, marijuana laws weren't enforced in the 60's to stop marijuana, but because the authorities of the time wanted to stop the hippies.

Similarly, the R.A.V.E. act is so named not because it's about Ecstasy but because it's about raves. It's a government attempt at skirting the Constitution and getting at censorship.

The U.S. Constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on anymore, it seems.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Ray, as you know I'm perhaps as conservative as you when it comes to drug use. Unfortunately this law is being enforced in New York (or similar "crack house" laws like it) to shut down clubs left and right. Twilo, one of the best trance clubs in NYC was shut down because there were simply too many incidents. Also, they hired a private ambulance to deal with any drug overdoses.

I can say that Twilo had STRICT search procedures and even busted in on people if they took too long in the bathroom stalls (yikes!) and immidiately ejected/arrested anyone with drugs. I saw one time an over 21 person give his under 21 friend (with no wristband) a sip of his beer and both were ejected. They had undercover security and police as well as a strong uniformed presence.

Since people who used drugs went to Twilo, it was shut. And yes, I do see it in that order. If people went to Twilo and used drugs, that might be different...

I see some of the laws as: If you own a pizzaria and people who use drugs show up despite your strictest security and counter measures, you will get shut down.

Don't get me started on NYC cabaret laws. You wouldn't believe them if I told you. You're not allowed to dance in any place that doesn't have a specific exensive "cabaret" lisence. And yes, it's enforced. For example, I've seen famous blues players have to stop in the middle of a song at a blues club to ask people to stop dancing so the club wouldn't be fined.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:you could take it as opportunity to take drugs and enjoy other settings or you could go somewhere that still allows you the freedoms you are losing. or you could even sit back and eat some cake. when i was in the states it did seem conservative and uptight in comparison to other western countries even japan? i brought some mushrooms from a shop in town legally last week. my heart goes out to you.

Delete

Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:I am proud to say that I am a citizen of a country which has just introduced laws governing the supply of bottled and tap water in clubs. The legislation introduced places an onus on clubs to provide water for free or bottled water priced at no higher than $1, after it was revealed that club owners were charging inflated prices for water (even just tap water) and even in some instances disabling taps in the bathrooms.

Whilst this does not relate directly to drug use, it shows that some small steps are being taken to promote sensible use of drugs and alcohol.

I am not so sure that we are as far thinking in other areas, but this gives me some hope.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:NYC I had no idea that things were that bad. Well I guess me comming from the southern part of the US things are looked at a bit differently.

What the club was doing was right, I mean if it were my place to be there you would follow my rules. If you didnt you were kicked out.

Its a real shame that they got into trouble because of a few idiots who just would not for any reason follow the rules

They thought that they were above the rules and that they were better than everyone else.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

toneman
member

Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 195
Posted:The scariest thing about this is that it is being slipped into some "Homeland Security" bill that is likely to be passed. It's a tactic that has been used a lot in the past with controversial bills. Essentially, they're blackmailing any politician who has rec'd calls detailing his constintuencies objections by labeling them "Anti-Homeland Security" if they vote against it. A politician, after all, isn't there to help mold the country in a sensible manner, they're there to keep themselves in office as long as they can.... What can ya do?

Delete

musashii
musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 14th Dec 2002
Total posts: 1148
Posted:get the f00k out, I'm with Mike..Got a handful of places I have in mind, when I'm ready(2 yrs or so) I'm going to start looking for sponsors(ie companies to hire) so I don't have to find someone to marry once I move neh. I wouldn't consider myself anti american, but I value my privacy and civil rights more.

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

Delete

Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:I have a strong interest in frivolous laws, mostly because I have a strong interest in freedom. And while the USA is a very free country on paper, the reality of our laws and policies makes us one of the most restrictive (and repressed) cultures on the planet. What you have brought up is a law that is aimed towards a consensual crime. Things like drugs, gambling, prostitution; victimless hobbies, and yet, illegal. Because they cannot target the source, lawmakers cast a wider net, catching many more people, but rarely snaring the bottom-feeders they want.

Here's a recent example:
In the State of West Virginia, it is now illegal to be inebriated in public. That includes sporting events, concerts, restaurants and of course, bars. This is not a prohibition, nor is it instituting a 'Dry County.' It's simply against the law to be publically drunk. Not disorderly or reckless, just drunk. I don't remember what the exact BAC definition of 'drunk' was in WV, but it equated to about ONE average drink per hour.

This anti-rave bill seems to break down in a similar manner. The West Virginia bill was supposedly aimed at drunk drivers, but it imposes against the freedoms of everyone to simply imbibe in public.

As far as our politicians go, the shepherd will always try to persuade the sheep that his interests are the same as theirs. All politicians have agendas, usually financial. And Ecstacy is a very popular drug to be a propnent against this year, because it's been in the news, and as dugs go, it's fairly new. Being vocal against this new scourge to our children will certainly help get them re-elected.
But like most drugs, it's expensive to fight. In this country, we spend nearly $29 Billion in our fight against drugs a year. $29 BILLION! That's a stack of $100 bills twice as high as the Empire State building. Why couldn't we spend that money to fight violent criminals, rapists and molestors, even terrorism. Instead we choose to waste that much ANNUALLY on the drug war If that irritates you, write your congressman. Let 'em know how you feel. Of course, voting is the loudest message you can send.
Now I'm not condoning drug use. I know that it's going to happen. Hell, we could make that much money by legalizing and regulating drugs, and I would feel safer were I a user. What we need to do is sumplify our legal system, not clutter it up with more and more laws.

Finally:
"There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free."
Arthur Pendragon (King of the Britains (As played by the great Sean Connery, (even though he is Scottish himself.)))


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

Delete


Similar Topics

Using the keywords [land] we found the following similar topics.
1. Forums > Cymru baby, yeah [1 reply]
2. Forums > land for marquee wedding and camping in Sussex area [5 replies]
3. Forums > Going to India by land [4 replies]
4. Forums > You know you are from the land of Weet-Bix and Vegemite when... [11 replies]
5. Forums > Nates trip to irish land [20 replies]

     Show more..