Forums > Social Discussion > Instinctive behaviour and Learnt behaviour
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My flabber is gasted
737 posts
Location: waaaay south of heaven, United Kingdom
My flabber is gasted
737 posts
Location: waaaay south of heaven, United Kingdom
Posted:
This is a discussion I was having with a friend of mine over the weekend. His argument was that there is no such thing as instinctive behaviour and that all behaviour is learnt ie you learn not to put your hand in a fire by getting burnt, while my argument was that learnt behaviour over time and evolution becomes instinctive so how can you learn something you do automatically such as holding your breath when you find yourself underwater.
Just interested to see what the thoughts of others are.
This is a discussion I was having with a friend of mine over the weekend. His argument was that there is no such thing as instinctive behaviour and that all behaviour is learnt ie you learn not to put your hand in a fire by getting burnt, while my argument was that learnt behaviour over time and evolution becomes instinctive so how can you learn something you do automatically such as holding your breath when you find yourself underwater.
Just interested to see what the thoughts of others are.
Chaos is the natural state of the universe
Some days I'm the pigeon, some days I'm the statue.
honourary militant margerine ninJAH
If it wasn't for displacement activity I wouldn't get half as much done
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Pulling your hand away from fire is instinctive. You do it faster than you can think.
That one is a an out and out example. But there often isn't a clear dichotomy between learned and instinctive behaviours. In many cases you are predisposed to being able to learn something.
Pulling your hand away from fire is instinctive. You do it faster than you can think.
That one is a an out and out example. But there often isn't a clear dichotomy between learned and instinctive behaviours. In many cases you are predisposed to being able to learn something.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
newborn babies can breath underwater... so not so automatic...
newborn babies can breath underwater... so not so automatic...
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Erm...I thinks you meant to say they can swim underwater.
But then I've never tested them.
Written by: mcp
newborn babies can breath underwater... so not so automatic...
Erm...I thinks you meant to say they can swim underwater.
But then I've never tested them.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
SILVER Member
My flabber is gasted
737 posts
Location: waaaay south of heaven, United Kingdom
My flabber is gasted
737 posts
Location: waaaay south of heaven, United Kingdom
Posted:
I think there is a lot of overlap between the two and something you learn can become instinctive if you repeat it often enough, but surely there are some actions that are pure instinct? staying with babies, a newborn doesn't 'learn' to breathe when its born, it just does.
and playing devil's advocate a little, is learning itself instinctive behaviour??
I think there is a lot of overlap between the two and something you learn can become instinctive if you repeat it often enough, but surely there are some actions that are pure instinct? staying with babies, a newborn doesn't 'learn' to breathe when its born, it just does.
and playing devil's advocate a little, is learning itself instinctive behaviour??
Chaos is the natural state of the universe
Some days I'm the pigeon, some days I'm the statue.
honourary militant margerine ninJAH
If it wasn't for displacement activity I wouldn't get half as much done
activist for HoPper liberation.
1,643 posts
Location: ffidrac
1,643 posts
Location: ffidrac
Posted:
what if there was just reactive behaviour - don't we behave in reaction to outside influence. uh.. what i'm trying to say is that generally if you hold your hand over a fire, it will be hot, so hot, that it becomes unpleasant, now if you're not enjoying the sensation, why on earth should you keep it there? I don't think this is instinctive or learnt necessarily, just a simple reaction to an unpleasant situation that our body is not built to handle....
what if there was just reactive behaviour - don't we behave in reaction to outside influence. uh.. what i'm trying to say is that generally if you hold your hand over a fire, it will be hot, so hot, that it becomes unpleasant, now if you're not enjoying the sensation, why on earth should you keep it there? I don't think this is instinctive or learnt necessarily, just a simple reaction to an unpleasant situation that our body is not built to handle....
Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006
if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.
SILVER Member
member
129 posts
Location: none, United Kingdom
member
129 posts
Location: none, United Kingdom
Posted:
may be along the wrong lines here but this strikes me as being very similar to the nature/nurture debate in psychology.
personally i think its a mixture of both instinctive behaviour and learnt behaviour. there are reflexes that babies are born with (so im told) like sucking and grabbing or things like breathing, but behaviour such as walking and talking, surely that is learnt?!
may be along the wrong lines here but this strikes me as being very similar to the nature/nurture debate in psychology.
personally i think its a mixture of both instinctive behaviour and learnt behaviour. there are reflexes that babies are born with (so im told) like sucking and grabbing or things like breathing, but behaviour such as walking and talking, surely that is learnt?!
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
pulling your hands AWAY from fire? Who'd do something as silly as that?
pulling your hands AWAY from fire? Who'd do something as silly as that?
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
I have some babies around the house. My tests indicate that from birth they will instinctively suck things that come near their mouth, grab things that touch their palm, and try to stiffen their legs when you hold them as if they were standing.
They seem to be instinctively afraid of falling, and loud noises. They also instinctively cry when they are uncomfortable. These things do not seem to have to be learned, but are present from birth.
Of course, some of these things may have been "learned" in the womb. For example, a fetus will grab things, suck their thumb, and kick around in the womb. A baby is not a blank slate at birth, it already knows it's mother's voice, and has been practicing many behaviors.
As far as breathing, a baby will "breath" the fluid inside the womb. I am inclined to call it instinctive, because it seems so automatic. However, I know that babies are usually encouraged to cry right after birth in order to get them to start breathing well. I suspect that since breathing is something we can control pretty well, it is a blend of instinctive and learned behavior.
My wife also insists that all babies can count to 2, since they seem to know when they haven't fed from both sides.
I have some babies around the house. My tests indicate that from birth they will instinctively suck things that come near their mouth, grab things that touch their palm, and try to stiffen their legs when you hold them as if they were standing.
They seem to be instinctively afraid of falling, and loud noises. They also instinctively cry when they are uncomfortable. These things do not seem to have to be learned, but are present from birth.
Of course, some of these things may have been "learned" in the womb. For example, a fetus will grab things, suck their thumb, and kick around in the womb. A baby is not a blank slate at birth, it already knows it's mother's voice, and has been practicing many behaviors.
As far as breathing, a baby will "breath" the fluid inside the womb. I am inclined to call it instinctive, because it seems so automatic. However, I know that babies are usually encouraged to cry right after birth in order to get them to start breathing well. I suspect that since breathing is something we can control pretty well, it is a blend of instinctive and learned behavior.
My wife also insists that all babies can count to 2, since they seem to know when they haven't fed from both sides.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
And they'll extend their arms if startled, wiggle their butts if suspended the right way and stroked up the back, make eye contact with people after about 1 week of age, and they do breathe on their own usually even without much stimulation although sometimes they need a bit of a jolt to initiate the reflex.
ALL neurolgically normal human beings will withdraw from a sudden unexpected painful stimulus. ALL neurologically normal human beings wince in response to an unexpected painful stimulus. For that matter, the hip thrusts done by men during sex are essentially the same among all men.
But the ultimate proof that behavior is partially genetic is this: Would you rather leave your child with a golden retriever or a pit bull? Yes, SOME pit bulls are gentle and loving and SOME golden retrievers are berserk, but these breeds have well-earned reputations for being respectively gentle, loving, and loyal and violent and unpredictable. This is because the behaviors are partially genetic in nature and these dogs were bred for certain behaviors. And cats are usually more stand-offish than dogs, even though they are not necessarily raised around other cats.
There are so many behavioral parallels between identical twins even when raised apart that it's hard to swallow that behavior is purely learned. ESPECIALLY when there is rather concrete evidence (infantile reflexes) to the contrary.
Written by:
I have some babies around the house. My tests indicate that from birth they will instinctively suck things that come near their mouth, grab things that touch their palm, and try to stiffen their legs when you hold them as if they were standing.
And they'll extend their arms if startled, wiggle their butts if suspended the right way and stroked up the back, make eye contact with people after about 1 week of age, and they do breathe on their own usually even without much stimulation although sometimes they need a bit of a jolt to initiate the reflex.
ALL neurolgically normal human beings will withdraw from a sudden unexpected painful stimulus. ALL neurologically normal human beings wince in response to an unexpected painful stimulus. For that matter, the hip thrusts done by men during sex are essentially the same among all men.
But the ultimate proof that behavior is partially genetic is this: Would you rather leave your child with a golden retriever or a pit bull? Yes, SOME pit bulls are gentle and loving and SOME golden retrievers are berserk, but these breeds have well-earned reputations for being respectively gentle, loving, and loyal and violent and unpredictable. This is because the behaviors are partially genetic in nature and these dogs were bred for certain behaviors. And cats are usually more stand-offish than dogs, even though they are not necessarily raised around other cats.
There are so many behavioral parallels between identical twins even when raised apart that it's hard to swallow that behavior is purely learned. ESPECIALLY when there is rather concrete evidence (infantile reflexes) to the contrary.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Study Reveals: Babies are Stupid.
[From The Onion or course!]
Study Reveals: Babies are Stupid.
[From The Onion or course!]
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
fae
259 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
fae
259 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posted:
Well I just came on hop to wind down from my developmental psychology revision for mondays exam...
Piaget would have said that babies are purely sensoriomotor blank slates, and that everything is learnt through perception and...
Baillergeon would say that we are born with innate learning mechanisms...
No. I can't! Must switch off.
Basically a lot of behaviour can be descirbed with learning theories, but there are some things that no-one can really explain through learning. So as always it comes down to "a bit of both"
Well I just came on hop to wind down from my developmental psychology revision for mondays exam...
Piaget would have said that babies are purely sensoriomotor blank slates, and that everything is learnt through perception and...
Baillergeon would say that we are born with innate learning mechanisms...
No. I can't! Must switch off.
Basically a lot of behaviour can be descirbed with learning theories, but there are some things that no-one can really explain through learning. So as always it comes down to "a bit of both"
warp children still smile the same
"when i left the mine i realised that the world was changing. or was it us who were changing?"
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
No! There can be only one!
Ahhh... yes Piaget again.
I think it's interesting also to look at the implications of both nature and nurture. Which can be controlled? Which can be affected? And with today's medical advances in affecting 'nature' who determines what we 'really' are and what are being affected by controlable biolgical influences.
No! There can be only one!
Ahhh... yes Piaget again.
I think it's interesting also to look at the implications of both nature and nurture. Which can be controlled? Which can be affected? And with today's medical advances in affecting 'nature' who determines what we 'really' are and what are being affected by controlable biolgical influences.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
enthusiast
242 posts
Location: L.O.N.D.O.N.
242 posts
Location: L.O.N.D.O.N.
Posted:
The only way to test nature versus nurture is to take two genetically similar people who had no pervious contact and different lives.
I am living proof that learning is based in nature as well as nurture. Me and my half brother grew up completely separately (I knew he existed but knew absolutely nothing about him, he didn't even know he had a half brother) and the first time we meet was at a British Juggling convention! We had both learnt, and become obsessed with, juggling completely independent.
Sure this could be circumstantial, but I am sure that tests have been conducted on twins separated at birth that back this up.
Although we both had to learn to juggle but was this learning instictive? Sure juggling is a cultural phenomenon; but I have met kids, not been exposed to the culture of juggling, who have learnt to juggle in 5 minutes!
Is it instinctive to try to catch something thrown at you?
The only way to test nature versus nurture is to take two genetically similar people who had no pervious contact and different lives.
I am living proof that learning is based in nature as well as nurture. Me and my half brother grew up completely separately (I knew he existed but knew absolutely nothing about him, he didn't even know he had a half brother) and the first time we meet was at a British Juggling convention! We had both learnt, and become obsessed with, juggling completely independent.
Sure this could be circumstantial, but I am sure that tests have been conducted on twins separated at birth that back this up.
Although we both had to learn to juggle but was this learning instictive? Sure juggling is a cultural phenomenon; but I have met kids, not been exposed to the culture of juggling, who have learnt to juggle in 5 minutes!
Is it instinctive to try to catch something thrown at you?
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
well it beats being hit in the face.
Written by: ickleMatt
Is it instinctive to try to catch something thrown at you?
well it beats being hit in the face.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
I Doubt, Therefore I Might Be
1,007 posts
Location: Horsham
1,007 posts
Location: Horsham
Posted:
i think that breathing, and being shocked by loud noises and withdrawing from pain and fire are all the body's methods of survival. its instinct because it has to be to continue being alive.
personally i think the diathesis stress model is the most accurate, to sum it up it says we are blank slates but with certain traits, those traits can only be 'unlocked' from certain triggers or stresses. e.g. you would only discover a brilliant talent for juggling if you were introduced to it. this is why so many labour or skilled professions run in families.
take every oppertunity you can and embrace it! you never know what might be triggered in your brain!
another interesting 'instinct' is involved with fight or flight. these days the stresses and stimuli that we are exposed to isnt physical, (in the shape of a giant sabre tooth tiger or scaly dinosaur) its involved with work, deadlines pressures to succeed. yet when we are faced with stress or are nervous we still feel 'butterflies' in our tummies, or need to go to the loo a lot. this is your body preparing you to weigh less if you need to run. you get a major dose of adrenalin so you are able to keep on running or fighting. (which is very bad for you if you dont burn it off)
i think that breathing, and being shocked by loud noises and withdrawing from pain and fire are all the body's methods of survival. its instinct because it has to be to continue being alive.
personally i think the diathesis stress model is the most accurate, to sum it up it says we are blank slates but with certain traits, those traits can only be 'unlocked' from certain triggers or stresses. e.g. you would only discover a brilliant talent for juggling if you were introduced to it. this is why so many labour or skilled professions run in families.
take every oppertunity you can and embrace it! you never know what might be triggered in your brain!
another interesting 'instinct' is involved with fight or flight. these days the stresses and stimuli that we are exposed to isnt physical, (in the shape of a giant sabre tooth tiger or scaly dinosaur) its involved with work, deadlines pressures to succeed. yet when we are faced with stress or are nervous we still feel 'butterflies' in our tummies, or need to go to the loo a lot. this is your body preparing you to weigh less if you need to run. you get a major dose of adrenalin so you are able to keep on running or fighting. (which is very bad for you if you dont burn it off)
Owner of Dragosani's right side.
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
From a plaque in my grandfather's house:
Every child is a blank slate, but every slate has a different surface.
From a plaque in my grandfather's house:
Every child is a blank slate, but every slate has a different surface.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
I Doubt, Therefore I Might Be
1,007 posts
Location: Horsham
1,007 posts
Location: Horsham
Posted:
i like it. very profound.
i like it. very profound.
Owner of Dragosani's right side.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Only if you COMPARED it to two genetically DIFFERENT people who had no previous contact and different lives.
Otherwise you end up with "See, both twins like nutella." When, in fact, everyone likes nutella.
Written by: ickleMatt
The only way to test nature versus nurture is to take two genetically similar people who had no pervious contact and different lives.
Only if you COMPARED it to two genetically DIFFERENT people who had no previous contact and different lives.
Otherwise you end up with "See, both twins like nutella." When, in fact, everyone likes nutella.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
I Doubt, Therefore I Might Be
1,007 posts
Location: Horsham
1,007 posts
Location: Horsham
Posted:
they have done tests like that using anorexia and bulimia
i can't remember the exact results (and i cant be bothered to look them up) but the tests show that identical twins are more likely to both develop eating disorders than than a pair of siblings or a pair of bizygotic twins (not from the same egg). they did the tests with the children raised together and raised apart.
the identical twins were more likely to both develop a disorder even if they werent raised under the same stimuli. so maybe it IS something that is in built.
they have done tests like that using anorexia and bulimia
i can't remember the exact results (and i cant be bothered to look them up) but the tests show that identical twins are more likely to both develop eating disorders than than a pair of siblings or a pair of bizygotic twins (not from the same egg). they did the tests with the children raised together and raised apart.
the identical twins were more likely to both develop a disorder even if they werent raised under the same stimuli. so maybe it IS something that is in built.
Owner of Dragosani's right side.
BRONZE Member
member
83 posts
Location: UK
member
83 posts
Location: UK
Posted:
Well put.
Nothing in the human brain or manifest in our behaviour is *ever* reducible to a single factor. Nature, nurture and pure chance will all play significant roles in shaping behaviour - to deny such a multiplicity of causal factors is to commit what is known as the 'reductionists fallacy'...
Brains are fascinating things...
Will
Written by: faery em
Basically a lot of behaviour can be descirbed with learning theories, but there are some things that no-one can really explain through learning. So as always it comes down to "a bit of both"
Well put.
Nothing in the human brain or manifest in our behaviour is *ever* reducible to a single factor. Nature, nurture and pure chance will all play significant roles in shaping behaviour - to deny such a multiplicity of causal factors is to commit what is known as the 'reductionists fallacy'...
Brains are fascinating things...
Will
member
21 posts
Location: Sunny Coast, Qld
21 posts
Location: Sunny Coast, Qld
Posted:
aaaahhh .. the classic nature / nurture debate .. reminds me of uni
my bubba made eye contact with her daddy within a minute of being born. held his gaze for a good 15 seconds too .. we were in awe!!
aaaahhh .. the classic nature / nurture debate .. reminds me of uni
Written by: Doc Lightning
... make eye contact with people after about 1 week of age ...
my bubba made eye contact with her daddy within a minute of being born. held his gaze for a good 15 seconds too .. we were in awe!!
Art is neither a profession, nor a hobby.
Art is a way of life.
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