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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Concentric spinning, relations, and the golden ratio

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:ok.. so lazyangel and I have been having a discussion on movement.. he started it here, then contributed it to a thread on |s| where Jon talked about movement.. I don't want to really derail those too much, so I want to start to focus a bit here on the ratio bit.. (here's the spherc reference) http://www.spherculism.net/poiple/module...75d9afead#14457
br>
The other post is lazyangels thread on movement (now with added theory) or something to that effect..



and it got me thinking about some things.. let me start another rev rant..



ok, so concentric is spinning is circles in circles.. prime example flowers, though pretty much everything is concentric spinning in some form or another.. I mean take some of the following exerpts from that thread with regards to centers of spin, and its relation to concentric spinning..



you have 4: two shoulders, and two wrists/hands.. (I mean we could break this down, but you really need a significant distance between the centers to get nifty patterns.. for instance I use 3" handles.. so I technically have an extra center of spin on each hand, but it doesnt make more patterns so much as just giving moe more reach and making it a little easier to flow through some stances.. if that makes sense.. because they are so close together) wow that was a long aside..



now the 4 centers of spin come together in a very complex relationship

arm1 and poi 1

arm 1 and arm 2

poi1 and poi 2

arm 2 and poi2

etc and so forth..



these relatioships determine things like:

normal spin- arm1 and poi 1 togehter (and arm2 and poi2)

antispin- arm1 contra poi 1 (and arm2 and poi2)

atomic spin (not atomics)- arm1 and poi1 perpendicular (and arm2 and poi2)



also

same direction- poi1 and poi 2 together

opposite- poi1 and poi 2 contra

atomic- poi1 and poi2 perpendicular



whihc are the same things.. just relative to different centers..



we get more complex patterns when we mix and match them in more interesting ways.. for example:

cubes: atomic spin + atomics (ie arms perpendicular to the poi and poi perpendicular to each other)

the possibilites are mind boggling when you realize that you can define relations between all 4 centers with all 3 of the others..



but enough of that for now..

that is one set of relationships.. the other important one, imo, is the ratio.. the ratio of circle sizes determines the type of isolation and it the ratio of speed determines isolation vs flower..



for example:

poi split time relative the arms:

arm circle (max poi size) and poi circle max= full iso

arm circle and poi circle same size= normal iso



poi same time relative the arms:

arm circle max and poi circle max= giant

arm circle small and poi circle max= normal





whereas, if you take a different speed ratio:

poi 4 : arm 1 = 4petal full flower (each poi makes full flower)

poi 2 : arm 1= 4 petal half flower (each poi makes half the flower)





now al of this discussion spawned something that I learned in math a long time ago.. This idea of the golden ratio..

http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/EMT669/Student.Folders/Frietag.Mark/Homepage/Goldenratio/goldenratio.html
br>


don't get bogged down in the math too much.. just part of the way down the page they get int digarams, starting with a line, and working into other figures.. now the golden ratio is pretty nifty.. we find it in nature a lot.. One of the reasons I remember it is because the famous drawing of divinci's of the man with 4 arms and legs and what not, was based on the golden ratio.. da vinci was obsessed with math, and its reflected in a lot of his work.. One of his biggest finding was how the golden ratio applied to man..

http://goldennumber.net/body.htm
br>


not the best site but it works.. Thanks to (not so) lazyangel for looking up all these sites.. props..



anyway.. this got us discussing how patterns done wallplane are probably more aesthically pleasing because of these ratios.. not only because you see the full pattern,. but because you see the full pattern in relation to the body whihc acts as a sort of ruler or guide.. noow maybe that is debateable, but one thing that is important I think, is to think about these ratios.. think about the ratio of one pattern to another as well as the ratios I mention near the beginning of the different parts of the body and poi to each other..



One thing I found pretty interesting is that I've always spun short poi that fit a certain length of my arm.. because it helped -me- to spin better (I don't think it applies to everyone.. ) one thing I found out from all this stuff is that the golden ratio of one thing to another is 1.618.. from the tip of my thumb (whihc holds my poi, along with my finger, but I mean you can't hold it further out than my thumb) to my shoulder is a little more than 25".. 25"/1.618= 15.45" my poi are from tip to thumbspot 15.75" that's pretty crazy..



anyway.. thoughts on any of this? I think its pretty cool..



Richee? I know you've been thinking something along these lines too..


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T&B
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

T&B

Me
Location: London/Bristol

Total posts: 607
Posted:That intresting stuff think am only going to throw my staff or poi muiltples of (my height)*1.618=3m,6m,9m... just so it looks right smile

Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ccensoredt

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:I got lost in this post. So I decided to post on something I find interesting:

http://www.maths.uq.edu.au/~mrb/research/papers/fractalmusic.pdf
br>
I think this has to do with performance also.

If you just keep going with the same movement over and over = boring. Maybe if you vary within the same 'family' of movements it adds interest, but after a longer period it also becomes boring. So you need to mix up your movements (using some scale big - small, easy - techy, easy transition - cool transition) but not in a purely random way, like white noise which would look crap. Nor in a simplistic way, which equates to brown noise and would look poo, but in a way which equates to pink noise and would be cooooooool.

I know I'm naive and idealistic. And I like science a bit too much.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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LazyAngel
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

LazyAngel

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Cambridge UK

Total posts: 2895
Posted:So basically (I think) the idea is, pretty spinning can be calculated with math: if it is proportional via the golden ratio to your body, then it should look aesthetic. The question i think Rev covered with his ideas on speed, centres of movement and ratios between poi and arms is what we can apply this theory to.

I think what meg is saying is all this theory is useless with out using a fractal element as a way to turn this into something beautiful, with seemingly endless variation but an overall cohesion.
confused
did I get any of that right?
shrug
wink

some more links...

history of the Golden ratio in aesthetics

(hopefully) understandable very basic concepts of moving with poi (now with added theory)


Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant

Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.

'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

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Posted:haha.. I like the ratio aesthics link angel.. hell I've liked them all..

I'm wondering how many veins are popping in peoples heads right now.. ubblol though that's not the intention..

as I understand it lazy, you summed it up quite well.. wink


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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:All this makes so much sense! For a while now I've thought there was an "ideal" ratio of poi-length to arm-length but never made the connection with the Golden Ratio. I had been considering the ideal ratio with regard to control, planes, etc. -- not aesthetics, but the aesthetic question is such an obvious one now that I think about it.

taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:no I'm not saying all this theory is useless, I'm saying I couldn't figure out all the jazz with my limited attention span during working hours. Some of it makes sense, along with what andrealee said in another thread about thinking about creating mandalas around the body. Mandala creation is probably an art in it's own right, but one that utilises the space it creates as much as the lines it draws.

Oh dear, I forgot my train of thought again...

Er so I'm not saying you should use fractal generators to pre-generate 'interesting' / 'musical' patterns of poi movers, but rather that it would be cool to look into how 'interesting' or 'beautiful' patterns of poi moves stand up when you translate them into an abstraction and compare them to 'pink' patterns of poi movement. Would aethetically pleaseing poi moves correspond to 'pink' or some other equation? How would you even calculate such an equation? Using some of the stuff rev posted? Or other formulas?

Well, maybe it would be cool to use fractal generators actually....

my view: Fractals for routines, golden ratio for 'single' movements?


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:mcp-

what I took lazy to be saying wasnt so strong on the 'useless' so much as the information that this provides gives us unique way of looking at the creation of patterns, and relations of patterns to patterns.. (patterns in patterns and so forth)... All of this is useful, but doesnt carry significant meaning without the larger scope of variety.. I mean.. sure this helps me to see and understand why a pattern is beautiful, or how an arrangement of patterns is beautiful, but it doesnt help me unless I see the big picture.. Like talking about the harmony of the various pieces of a snowflake without actually seeing the snowflake..



if that makes sense...



edit: on a side note.. I used to have a synthesizer that worked off mathematical forumlas.. but I never learned how to use it well.. I was facinated by maths ability to not only arrange sound but create it as well..





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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

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Posted:ahhh when you say lazy you mean lazyangel! rolleyes ubbloco ubbidea

yeah it makes sense.

why is there not a POV option on poi bot?


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:yeah... sorry about that.

well, we didnt really think we needed one.. because poibot shows the different angles, and the improved poibot that will be around whenever we get the improved |s| will have a chance for you to overlay a video with poibot.. so that you can get an idea of what they are doing.. think of it like being able to see any part of a vid from all of poibots angles.. because by overlaying one, poibot automatically does it a the other angles.. plus with the upgrade of the physics engine, it should be pretty sweet..

I can see how the pov option would be handy, but if we go back to the part in the expectation thread about how much we learn by watching, I'm not sure we need it..

that's just my take.. I mean look at how much we learn now, and how many vdeos actually show you from the pov..

:stops and thinks for a minute: where the hell did that come from anyway? ubblol hug


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LazyAngel
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

LazyAngel

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Cambridge UK

Total posts: 2895
Posted:I think we need a fractal generator to create circular patterns based on the 'golden spiral'

Then we could break our minds trying to work out how to do them ubbloco

That would be cool! wink


Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant

Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Given you were using poi with the correct ratio to your arms, I can only assume that the ratio between isolation, normal spin, and extended spin would also be 1.618.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:mandala's... POV... how to work out if things look nice... and a nice pattern to analyse.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Perhaps thats also why moves like flowers and fountains look so good, because they display 2 of these circles at once... Maybe even 3 circles (if you count the path your hands are traveling in.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Try Spirograph,



With antispins, flowers, big little's, many circles.



Theory, hypotrochoid,Poi head circle moving inside

circle created by hand is two centric anti-spin pattern.



and



epitrochoid, Poi head circle movig outside

circle created by hand, flower.



Poi tale and hand with body in line.



lightning,



:R


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted: Written by: ICoN


Given you were using poi with the correct ratio to your arms, I can only assume that the ratio between isolation, normal spin, and extended spin would also be 1.618.



I never thought about that.. definately for normal and giant, but isolation would have to be a little off.. it needs to be 1/1.618 not 1/2 which is what a normal iso is..


cheers richee.. though you really gotta bump the radians down to start designing poi patterns..

I wish I still had an old school spirograph with the gears and stuff to sketch patterns with..


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Location: Prague

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Posted: Written by:

Rev

now the 4 centers of spin come together in a very complex relationship
arm1 and poi 1
arm 1 and arm 2
poi1 and poi 2
arm 2 and poi2





I found something interesting. imagine circle center as line by hand and Poi.
Code:
S ----- * ----- o


Let start from shoulder and place centers:

body

Shoulder = Giant, long arm
Elbow = Elbow
Hand = Flower, spin

Poi
shoulder = Full izolation (nice from snake)
elbow = Snake
Hand = Anti-spin

What is interesting that neitrher with hand nor with Poi,
the center is not moving behind the body I meen its pendling
between shoulder nad hand.

:R


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Rovo
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 544
Posted:Now that I have a video up illustrating what I've been doing I can finally respond to this post. (At 4:10 in the More Sock Practice vid the sequence I'm talking about takes place)

Rev you were talking about concentric circles. Poi moving in circles while your arms are moving in circles and all the combinations that go with those. I have been taking this one step further with something I call complex circles. The poi are still making circles but instead of making circles with your arms you make squares and sine curves and straight lines. You expand the circles into ellipses for one rotation then shrink it back down. There are so many possiblities, so many different patterns that can be acheived.


Peace, Love, Circles

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:actually rovo I was just talking about concentric spinning.. patterns in patterns. I gave the circles in circles as a simple example.. the golden ratio link describes how other patterns can fit into patterns and still have a similar effect.. In fact, this thread is a bit divergent from some of the 'movement' based ideas that I've been discussing with Lazyangel and Dub about on the spherculism link.. Whihc I feel is more in tune with what you are talking about here..



nice stuff there in the vid though.. a good exampl of some of the ideas that I'm on about..



cheers..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1143129418)


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Rev


ok, so concentric is spinning is circles in circles.. prime example flowers, though pretty much everything is concentric spinning in some form or another..



 Written by: Rev


actually rovo I was just talking about concentric spinning.. patterns in patterns. I gave the circles in circles as a simple example..



ubblol wink


cole. x


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:It depend on what makes the circle I think.

If its Poi head only,
than "big & littles" can be example of circle in circle.
One hand makes big one ,while othe hand move the small
one.

If its Poi head and hand too,
than flower fits well, so Poi head makes two separate
circles and hand does one big.

Snakes create same circle for hand as for Poi.So double snake is like both previous together and it can be
example of concentric spinning I see?

:R


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jeffhigh
GOLD Member since Oct 2005

Member
Location: Caves Beach, NSW

Total posts: 89
Posted:Does'nt concentric mean "sharing a common centre" not just circles within circles.
So you have the centre of the circle remaining the same but the radius changing


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:concentric means sharing the same center.. so its a pattern in a pattern.. the flower is concentric because the pattern of poi circles share the same center as the giant arm circle pattern.. in that case its circles in circles.. so that would be concentric circles.. but(for cole) I don't say concentric circles in the title its concentric spinning...

whihc is why I say (from the spherc thread whihc is cited at the beginning)
 Written by: Rev


Thus, the way I saw things (movement in this case), it is a set of patterns in patterns.. which is purely a matter of ratios...

Think of it like a clockwork anything.. like the robots the greeks had that Mechus(sp?) built, or da vinci's robots.. all of these robots worked like clockwork.. meaning that had relatively few parts that made this whole variety of complex motions happen.. and it was all in the timing.. like the way the different size gears came together, and the well placement of a cog..



sorry you guys arent reading everything.. but that's the thread that started this whole discussion..


richee-
anytime you have more than one center of spin for the same, ummm, part.. you get concentric spinning.. ie. One on the arm and one on the poi.. one on the poi and one on the body. and so forth.. sometimes these centers line up.. and so they appear to have only one center when they have more than one.. which is really just a reduction.. ratios and timing and all.. haha..

so yes your examples are concentric spinning..


jeff-
just changing the radius isnt concentric spinning.. because then you are comparing the first circle with one later in time.. concentric is a simultaneous thing.. so the patterns involved are happening at the same time sharing the same center.. like when you twist a weave, the poi create one circle, but your hands twisting create another.. and they share the same center.. pretty much anything we do that is non static is to some degree concentric spinning.. this means a a buzssaw isnt concentric, but a buzzsaw fountain is..


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jeffhigh
GOLD Member since Oct 2005

Member
Location: Caves Beach, NSW

Total posts: 89
Posted:"concentric - having the same center, as concentric circles; having the same axis, as concentric cylinders."

I just tend to think that if you are going to define concentric spinning as
"anytime you have more than one center of spin for the same, ummm, part.. you get concentric spinning.. ie. One on the arm and one on the poi.. one on the poi and one on the body. and so forth.. sometimes these centers line up.. and so they appear to have only one center when they have more than one."
then you have corrupted the meaing of concentric.and perhaps another word would serve better.


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted: Written by:

Rev
concentric means sharing the same center.. so its a pattern in a pattern.. the flower is concentric because the pattern of poi circles share the same center as the giant arm circle pattern.. in that case its circles in circles.. so that would be concentric circles.. but(for cole) I don't say concentric circles in the title its concentric spinning...




If you consider concentric spining as "Sharing same center. To be pattern in pattern".

Than flower, is not contric, becase flower is circle ON circle. I found for now, split time long arm, full izolation and snake to be concentric.

Anti spin is again circle on circle with opposite facing.

:R


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:how does the pattern of poi circles inside the larger arm circle not make a 'concentric' pattern.. both the arm circle and the pattern of petals share the same center.. thus by definition, they are concentric.



when you have multiple centers of spin to the same part, the individual circles are NOT concentric.. the pattern is.. but the pattern is just circles.. so maybe I should have said a pattern of circles in the circle as being concentric. but then you can just as easily miscontrue that.. I'm not trying to say each petal is concentric to the arm circle.. I'm saying the pattern of petals (pattern of circles) is concentric to the arm circle.



the exmaples richee provided are all concentric because the properties in isolation are the same properties that the rest of the patterns (antispin and flowers) share.. the only difference is the proportion of the ratios.. Which has been the point of this thread..



If you don't see how all of these patterns are the same in these respects then I guess I can't expect you to understand the term concentric in this respect.. I'm sorry guys, I know the definition, and albeit I am piss poor at explaining things, Im not wrong in my usage.. these patterns ALL share the same center.. and that alone is the definition of concentric..



but at this point.. I don't really care.. I've had a really crappy day... so I apologize for the pissy post.. but the point isnt to banter about this crap, it was the idea behind it.. whihc I feel is relevent to the 'words' I used, but if you don't then call it whatever, I don't care.. just get the point...


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted: Written by:

Rev

how does the pattern of poi circles inside the larger arm

circle not make a 'concentric' pattern.. both the arm

circle and the pattern of petals share the same center..

thus by definition, they are concentric.







Arm circle has center in shouler, whilst Poi has center

is hand hand.



There is arm circle and Poi circle.



I respect what you sad but want to point that,

patterns, shere same center line. The line is form arm

to arm, from hand to shoulder through body to shoulder

and back to hand.



Concentric are the ones sharing same center in there.



 Written by:

Rev

the other important one, imo, is the ratio.. the ratio of circle sizes determines the type of isolation and it the ratio of speed determines isolation vs flower..







Ratio in first case is vector quantity, in the second

scalar quantity. Vector can not be scalar. Can you

explain ratio closer?



:R


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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Speed is a scalar quantity; velocity is a vector quantity. So a ratio of speeds is fine wink

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Well, in case of 'ratio of speed', I see it as ratio of beats

and timing:



X:Y



POI CIRCLE VIEW



Classic moves are odd [2:2], [3:3], the ratio is 1.



When move has X - Y = 1, than the move can be

evened up, like weave, [1:2]-[2:1],in siteswap.



When move has X - Y > 1, than it's even, offset

move and have to be mirrored, repeated with

exchanging beats.



HAND CIRCLE VIEW



Long arm(shoulder circle) 1 beat.



Hand circle 2 beat.



Izolation 4 baet.



It meens with one hand long arm circle, you catch

up two beats with hand circle, to get timing. It is

the same like pendulum and circle, where one pe-

ndulum swing is equal to one beat circle.






Non-Https Image Link






About 'ratio of circles'. It's way complicated, because

there is arm circle and Poi circle, two centers. Ratio

of circle size can be seen again from 2 perspectives.



You can see that hand circles goes like:



Hand > Elbow > Shoulder



(top three red Poi heads)



and Poi circles goes like:



Anti-spin > Snake > Full izolation



(bottow blue hands)



But where is the golden ration I cant say for now.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Re-edited 2008/19/1.



love,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:I LOVE your diagrams richee!

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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2. Learn > Fire Fans > Mr Jeff Fans Tutorials > spinning body tracers *help/resource
3. Learn > Hoop > 2-Hoop Handwork > Basic 2 hoop spinning *help/resource
4. Learn > Hoop > Hula Hoop > Sustained spinning sequence *help/resource
5. Learn > Juggling > 3 Clubs > Club spinning technique - Height and Spin *help/resource

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