- New! We now accept ACH Payments, View Payment Options
Forums > Social Discussion > UK ID cards
Login/Join to ParticipatePosted:UK id card 
What is your opinion what do you have against them and why
I personally cant wait for them to become law. All this stuff about big brother is watching us. So What I dont care he can come watch me take a dump for all I care
If I'm not doing any thing wrong why should I be bothered
Civil liberties my bum what is the difference going to be we already get issued with a NI number at 16
And if it stops some snotty chav using my debit card to buy stuff with when he nicks my wallet or the thieving postie with my pin number.
a card that says I am me and nobody else sounds good to me.
Ok they need to work on the biometric info a bit more but hey it will come with time
What is your opinion what do you have against them and why
I personally cant wait for them to become law. All this stuff about big brother is watching us. So What I dont care he can come watch me take a dump for all I care
If I'm not doing any thing wrong why should I be bothered
Civil liberties my bum what is the difference going to be we already get issued with a NI number at 16
And if it stops some snotty chav using my debit card to buy stuff with when he nicks my wallet or the thieving postie with my pin number.
a card that says I am me and nobody else sounds good to me.
Ok they need to work on the biometric info a bit more but hey it will come with time
before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)
Delete Topicdani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005
![dani_babyboo]()
addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United...
Total posts: 667
SILVER Member since Feb 2005
addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United...
Total posts: 667
Posted:have you not noticed people dont carry cash recently, people have a new thing called chip and pin accepted almost anywhere
muggins usually occure and they often steel jewelry, trainers, mobile fones and anything else a person is carrying that they might make some money off, very rarely has it been cash in the past few years since debit cards came into action...
so how is it going to stop crime, we wont stop taking mobiles, wearing jewelry or named brand trainers or clothes so i dont see how the crime rate will drop.
it wont stop rapes, it wont stop racist attacks, muggins will still happen for personal items, and people will exchange valubal items for drugs instead of money.... nothing is ever going to stop anything in reality people will always find a way around whats going on and people will hate and rebel about the more strict prison like world
muggins usually occure and they often steel jewelry, trainers, mobile fones and anything else a person is carrying that they might make some money off, very rarely has it been cash in the past few years since debit cards came into action...
so how is it going to stop crime, we wont stop taking mobiles, wearing jewelry or named brand trainers or clothes so i dont see how the crime rate will drop.
it wont stop rapes, it wont stop racist attacks, muggins will still happen for personal items, and people will exchange valubal items for drugs instead of money.... nothing is ever going to stop anything in reality people will always find a way around whats going on and people will hate and rebel about the more strict prison like world
enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token
o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek
stepped up promotions
Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005
![Patriarch917]()
I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Total posts: 607
SILVER Member since Oct 2005
I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Total posts: 607
Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005
![Birgit]()
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Total posts: 4145
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Total posts: 4145
Posted:How is a microchip going to stop a dog from biting?
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
Posted: Written by: dani_babyboo
have you not noticed people dont carry cash recently, people have a new thing called chip and pin accepted almost anywhere
That's why I am looking for this incredibly talented hacker, who can issue me the universal platinium ATM-card...
I know a friend who is not even buying his Rizzlas (skins) at the petrol pump on his ATM-card, in paranoia they would track and blacklist him...
Ever seen "Gattaca"?
The sad thing is that those ID cards and passports with DNA, or fingerprints, or iris-scans will come - no matter what we think of it...
That - along with the fact that I can't take my didj INTO the airplane anymore - is what REALLY pisses me off about al-quaeda and this laden guy...
have you not noticed people dont carry cash recently, people have a new thing called chip and pin accepted almost anywhere
That's why I am looking for this incredibly talented hacker, who can issue me the universal platinium ATM-card...
I know a friend who is not even buying his Rizzlas (skins) at the petrol pump on his ATM-card, in paranoia they would track and blacklist him...
Ever seen "Gattaca"?
The sad thing is that those ID cards and passports with DNA, or fingerprints, or iris-scans will come - no matter what we think of it...
That - along with the fact that I can't take my didj INTO the airplane anymore - is what REALLY pisses me off about al-quaeda and this laden guy...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005
![dani_babyboo]()
addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United...
Total posts: 667
SILVER Member since Feb 2005
addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United...
Total posts: 667
Posted:nah i havent see gattaca lol what is it a film
finger prints is ok but sticking a chip in someone is stupid
i dont know how anything will sove crime poeple will still comit offences they will find ways round it
finger prints is ok but sticking a chip in someone is stupid
i dont know how anything will sove crime poeple will still comit offences they will find ways round it
enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token
o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek
stepped up promotions
Posted:Dani - it'll be a MANDATORY chip implant... no matter what WE may think about it 
It starts with fingerprints...
Crimes can only be solved by giving people morals and living up to the same standards, by ensuring that people have (a) work (they can enjoy), food and shelter...
Curing the root cause was always more sustainable than trying to get the symptoms under control...
It starts with fingerprints...
Crimes can only be solved by giving people morals and living up to the same standards, by ensuring that people have (a) work (they can enjoy), food and shelter...
Curing the root cause was always more sustainable than trying to get the symptoms under control...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Posted:For those not concerned about the civil liberties of having a compolsory ID card that carries all of your personal details and that the home minister can revoke from you for ANY reason...
Can you not imagine any possible occurance when the government will do something that you whole hearted disagree with - say invade another country on the basis of a bunch of lies. Its not to difficult to imagine. Well say you had some kind of intellectual and moral reason to actually do something about it like protest, or join a group which is actively campaigning against it. ID cards will make it easier for the government to undermine these means of disent.
Please don't be so naive to think that just because your not doing anything 'wrong' now doesn't mean that you won't consider doing something 'wrong' in the future.
If you care about democracy in the UK you will oppose the ID bill.
Can you not imagine any possible occurance when the government will do something that you whole hearted disagree with - say invade another country on the basis of a bunch of lies. Its not to difficult to imagine. Well say you had some kind of intellectual and moral reason to actually do something about it like protest, or join a group which is actively campaigning against it. ID cards will make it easier for the government to undermine these means of disent.
Please don't be so naive to think that just because your not doing anything 'wrong' now doesn't mean that you won't consider doing something 'wrong' in the future.
If you care about democracy in the UK you will oppose the ID bill.
Delete
Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005
![Sethis]()
Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...
Total posts: 1762
BRONZE Member since May 2005
Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Combined with the creation of a new government department modelled after the FBI??? What the hell is going on??
I'm starting to not like this country very much...
I'm starting to not like this country very much...
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005
![dani_babyboo]()
addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United...
Total posts: 667
SILVER Member since Feb 2005
addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United...
Total posts: 667
Posted:tom i cant see it happening, as the risks involved with an implant as it is a foreign object in the body
enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token
o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek
stepped up promotions
Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003
![Dunc]()
playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...
Total posts: 7263
GOLD Member since Aug 2003
playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...
Total posts: 7263
Posted:"includes credit card" is that like part and parcel with the id card? If you get an ID you get credit? Hmmm.....I hear the signs rolling around Visa's eyes as we speak, part and parcel or not!
quoting various patriarch
"implanted Chips are the way to go" LMFAO Sure they are....
"they wouldn't be mandatory" So how exactly would they help then, in your scenario.
If they wouldn't be mandatory how would it stop people buying the drugs you think it would prevent? Or would it be one of those "you don't have to have one, but if you don't you can't have any money whatsoever and it wouldn't 'physically exist' or survive in this ever capitalising world we live in"
How exactly would you operate one of these wonderful chips? With thoughts and impulses from your brain, or finger semaphor perhaps
How would you turn it on to authorise payments of cash and turn it off so no sneaky guys scans your hands for all your money and id details and medical history as you walk innocently down your local high street?
And it would only be a form of ID yet contain your medical data, authorise everything from money transfers to passport ID and still have the time to tie in with GPS??!!
WTFAYTA? I can only presume it's never been a seriously considered idea of your's and you're just just making it up as you go along yeah?
quoting various patriarch
"implanted Chips are the way to go" LMFAO Sure they are....
"they wouldn't be mandatory" So how exactly would they help then, in your scenario.
If they wouldn't be mandatory how would it stop people buying the drugs you think it would prevent?
Or would it be one of those "you don't have to have one, but if you don't you can't have any money whatsoever and it wouldn't 'physically exist' or survive in this ever capitalising world we live in"How exactly would you operate one of these wonderful chips? With thoughts and impulses from your brain, or finger semaphor perhaps
How would you turn it on to authorise payments of cash and turn it off so no sneaky guys scans your hands for all your money and id details and medical history as you walk innocently down your local high street?
And it would only be a form of ID yet contain your medical data, authorise everything from money transfers to passport ID and still have the time to tie in with GPS??!!
WTFAYTA? I can only presume it's never been a seriously considered idea of your's and you're just just making it up as you go along yeah?
Let's relight this forum 
Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003
![Dunc]()
playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...
Total posts: 7263
GOLD Member since Aug 2003
playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...
Total posts: 7263
Posted:That aside, I dont like enforced ID cards. The idea as a whole is good, except the mandatory sign up.
I wasn't born on this Earth by choice, it was natural selection. I only live in the place I choose to live in, and not in those I may be forcefully rejected from. Personally I think closed (and open) borders are acient, archaic, pointless and lead to more problems that they solve. Enforced ID cards increase these barriers and ones already highly limited "freedom" to move around the landscape/the global entirety.
If people choose to have a form of ID that encompases every aspect of their lives from birth data, national identity, medical info etc then fine, let them have a (inter)nationally recognised form of ID, let the rest of us live our own lives, be we criminals, convicts, carers or chaplins (the non charlie variety )
I'm not proud of the country I was borne in simly because I was born in it, nor am I ashamed. I'm proud of my life, my family and my friends, my local community. I need no mandatory card for this and I need no mandatory card for anything else.
Stangely the only people I've ever met in the world who have enforced ID cards and don't mind have been German, I'm not sure if that's just coincidence or a highlight of a huge cultural difference way deeper than we realise in our day to day lives. Please don't take that the wrong way, Germany is the 2nd favourite nation of all the ones I've visited and full of truly lovely people
I wasn't born on this Earth by choice, it was natural selection. I only live in the place I choose to live in, and not in those I may be forcefully rejected from. Personally I think closed (and open) borders are acient, archaic, pointless and lead to more problems that they solve. Enforced ID cards increase these barriers and ones already highly limited "freedom" to move around the landscape/the global entirety.
If people choose to have a form of ID that encompases every aspect of their lives from birth data, national identity, medical info etc then fine, let them have a (inter)nationally recognised form of ID, let the rest of us live our own lives, be we criminals, convicts, carers or chaplins (the non charlie variety
) I'm not proud of the country I was borne in simly because I was born in it, nor am I ashamed. I'm proud of my life, my family and my friends, my local community. I need no mandatory card for this and I need no mandatory card for anything else.
Stangely the only people I've ever met in the world who have enforced ID cards and don't mind have been German, I'm not sure if that's just coincidence or a highlight of a huge cultural difference way deeper than we realise in our day to day lives. Please don't take that the wrong way, Germany is the 2nd favourite nation of all the ones I've visited and full of truly lovely people
Let's relight this forum
Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005
![Patriarch917]()
I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Total posts: 607
SILVER Member since Oct 2005
I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: Dunc
quoting various patriarch
"implanted Chips are the way to go" LMFAO Sure they are....
"they wouldn't be mandatory" So how exactly would they help then, in your scenario.
If they wouldn't be mandatory how would it stop people buying the drugs you think it would prevent? Or would it be one of those "you don't have to have one, but if you don't you can't have any money whatsoever and it wouldn't 'physically exist' or survive in this ever capitalising world we live in"
Hmm, I think I already answered that question when I wrote:
"You don't have to make them mandatory, but just get rid of all other forms of currency."
and
"Again, the people that don't want it don't have to get it. It doesn't have to be mandatory. However, other forms of cash and ID will be phased out. To participate in the gloabl market, you will need it. However, if you want to live by yourself in a bunker and grow your own food, you can do that. Plenty of paranoid wackos will object to it, but who needs them?"
Written by: Dunc
How exactly would you operate one of these wonderful chips? With thoughts and impulses from your brain, or finger semaphor perhaps
How do you operate your passport or your credit card? It's a form of ID, not a Playstation. Instead of swiping your credit card at the store, you swipe your hand. We already have RF devices like this in the U.S. that allow us to buy things merely by waving our keychain near a scanner and typing in our secret code, they just aren't permanently attached yet.
Written by: Dunc
How would you turn it on to authorise payments of cash and turn it off so no sneaky guys scans your hands for all your money and id details and medical history as you walk innocently down your local high street?
Like a normal credit card or ID card, it does not need to be turned on. Your acting like this is a wallet that "contains" cash or data. It need only be an identifier. A grocery store scanner recognizes your implant, then asks if you want cash moved from your bank account to the account of the store. An emergency medical worker scans an unconscious person to find out who they are, and retrieves the medical data from the hospital not from the implant itself.
Written by: Dunc
And it would only be a form of ID yet contain your medical data, authorise everything from money transfers to passport ID and still have the time to tie in with GPS??!!
WTFAYTA? I can only presume it's never been a seriously considered idea of your's and you're just just making it up as you go along yeah?
This isn't exactly a new idea, I didn't make up any of it, and it only uses technology that already exists. I'm just pointing what is already possible. We have the technology to pull all of this off and much more, and we're doing it.
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,60771,00.html
br>
"Solusat began selling VeriChip -- which is similar to the biochips used to track cattle and lost pets -- in Mexico in July; it's been sold in the United States since October 2002.
The VeriChip is injected under the skin of the upper arm or hip in an outpatient procedure. A special scanner reads the RF signal emitted by the microchip to obtain the device's ID number, which then is entered into a database to access personal data about the individual. Other potential uses of the chip, according to company officials, include scanning unconscious patients to obtain their medical records or restricting access to high-security buildings by scanning workers to verify their clearance. "
We are already moving in this direction. It's only a matter of time before countries start issuing these at birth.
quoting various patriarch
"implanted Chips are the way to go" LMFAO Sure they are....
"they wouldn't be mandatory" So how exactly would they help then, in your scenario.
If they wouldn't be mandatory how would it stop people buying the drugs you think it would prevent?
Or would it be one of those "you don't have to have one, but if you don't you can't have any money whatsoever and it wouldn't 'physically exist' or survive in this ever capitalising world we live in"Hmm, I think I already answered that question when I wrote:
"You don't have to make them mandatory, but just get rid of all other forms of currency."
and
"Again, the people that don't want it don't have to get it. It doesn't have to be mandatory. However, other forms of cash and ID will be phased out. To participate in the gloabl market, you will need it. However, if you want to live by yourself in a bunker and grow your own food, you can do that. Plenty of paranoid wackos will object to it, but who needs them?"
Written by: Dunc
How exactly would you operate one of these wonderful chips? With thoughts and impulses from your brain, or finger semaphor perhaps
How do you operate your passport or your credit card?
It's a form of ID, not a Playstation. Instead of swiping your credit card at the store, you swipe your hand. We already have RF devices like this in the U.S. that allow us to buy things merely by waving our keychain near a scanner and typing in our secret code, they just aren't permanently attached yet.Written by: Dunc
How would you turn it on to authorise payments of cash and turn it off so no sneaky guys scans your hands for all your money and id details and medical history as you walk innocently down your local high street?
Like a normal credit card or ID card, it does not need to be turned on. Your acting like this is a wallet that "contains" cash or data. It need only be an identifier. A grocery store scanner recognizes your implant, then asks if you want cash moved from your bank account to the account of the store. An emergency medical worker scans an unconscious person to find out who they are, and retrieves the medical data from the hospital not from the implant itself.
Written by: Dunc
And it would only be a form of ID yet contain your medical data, authorise everything from money transfers to passport ID and still have the time to tie in with GPS??!!
WTFAYTA? I can only presume it's never been a seriously considered idea of your's and you're just just making it up as you go along yeah?
This isn't exactly a new idea, I didn't make up any of it, and it only uses technology that already exists. I'm just pointing what is already possible. We have the technology to pull all of this off and much more, and we're doing it.
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,60771,00.html
br>
"Solusat began selling VeriChip -- which is similar to the biochips used to track cattle and lost pets -- in Mexico in July; it's been sold in the United States since October 2002.
The VeriChip is injected under the skin of the upper arm or hip in an outpatient procedure. A special scanner reads the RF signal emitted by the microchip to obtain the device's ID number, which then is entered into a database to access personal data about the individual. Other potential uses of the chip, according to company officials, include scanning unconscious patients to obtain their medical records or restricting access to high-security buildings by scanning workers to verify their clearance. "
We are already moving in this direction. It's only a matter of time before countries start issuing these at birth.
Delete
Bubbles_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004
![Bubbles_]()
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: mancunian, United Kingdom
Total posts: 3383
SILVER Member since Nov 2004
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: mancunian, United Kingdom
Total posts: 3383
Posted: Written by: patriarch
However, if you want to live by yourself in a bunker and grow your own food, you can do that. Plenty of paranoid wackos will object to it, but who needs them?
*raises hand* im a paranoid wacko
why the hell do i have to be forced to live 'in a bunker growing my own food' if i dont want to be chipped? granted this will happen eventualy whether we like it or not but there has to be an alternative. granted in your opinion im sure cards arent as efficient as a chip, but damn me if im going to be forced to have a chip implant to satisfy the government.
what worrys me is that everything happens bit by bit until its too late and any stand made will be just too late and have little effect. its starts with the ID card, then ends up with the chip and that scares the s**t out of me.
unfortuantly whether we agree to this or not, i dont get the impression that much action is being taken by those in the opinion that we dont want it (and that includes me)
However, if you want to live by yourself in a bunker and grow your own food, you can do that. Plenty of paranoid wackos will object to it, but who needs them?
*raises hand* im a paranoid wacko
why the hell do i have to be forced to live 'in a bunker growing my own food' if i dont want to be chipped? granted this will happen eventualy whether we like it or not but there has to be an alternative. granted in your opinion im sure cards arent as efficient as a chip, but damn me if im going to be forced to have a chip implant to satisfy the government.
what worrys me is that everything happens bit by bit until its too late and any stand made will be just too late and have little effect. its starts with the ID card, then ends up with the chip and that scares the s**t out of me.
unfortuantly whether we agree to this or not, i dont get the impression that much action is being taken by those in the opinion that we dont want it (and that includes me)
Disclaimer:im not responsible for what i say or do whether it be before,during and after drinking alcoholic substances (owned by BMVC).
Creater of Jenisms(TM)
Virginity like bubble,one prick all gone.
Posted:Ok so my last post on this was a bit reactionary, I'm just very concerned about the debate here and in the UK in general.
What I would like to do is go through all of the arguments for compulsory ID cards and the national database which will support them and give a different point of view.
Before I start I would like to outline the two major problems
1. Making the ID card comulsory.
The introduction of compulsory ID cards is a change in relationship between the individual and the state. We were born free we have the inherent right to privacy and freedom. As a society we elect servents (the government) to look after certain stuff and we allow them to infringe on our privacy and freedom only when necessary. ie. in a criminal investiagation. By making ID cards compulsory suddenly we have to prove to the government who we are; the government is suddenly GIVING us the privacy and freedom.
Sure if it was not compulsory then why the hell not. I for one won't be getting one, but you can
2. The database that stores the biometric details.
This is really bad news. This system will cost 5.5 billion pounds! (That is if it isn't over budget - anybody remember other government IT projects that have gone over budget?) And YOU will be paying for it either directly or indirectly.
This system will NOT be secure. It will be programmed by people, data entry will be done by people, it will be done by people. People are open to corruption.
------------------
"All this stuff about big brother is watching us. So What I dont care he can come watch me take a dump for all I care
If I'm not doing any thing wrong why should I be bothered"
Would you REALLY like to have video cameras in every room of your house? Is this what you would like? Would you like satelite cameras tracking you? To invade someones privacy you should have a very good reason.
"Civil liberties my bum what is the difference going to be we already get issued with a NI number at 16"
Comparing the ID cards and database yo the NI number is like comparing my old ZX spectrum to the Apple iBook I'm writing this on; fundamentaly the same but in a whole different ball park.
"And if it stops some snotty chav using my debit card to buy stuff with when he nicks my wallet or the thieving postie with my pin number. "
If you get your card nick then call your bank to have it stopped. If your really worried about this pay for the insurance that will refund you the money spent.
"In Germany it's law that you're always able to identify yourself, and I don't mind that."
If the citizens of German have a different relationship to their government then thats their issue. It DOESN't mean that the UK should go that way as well. Plus they don't have a biometric database to back it up.
"How about a microchip implanted in the hand, that would serve as an ID and as digital cash. You don't have to make them mandatory, but just get rid of all other forms of currency."
You will create a two class society, do really want to create such division?
"Also wont it help to ferrit out the illigal imigrents?"
Illegal immigrants are already 'nobody' they generally destory all their ID as soon as they leave their country. They are generally facing death in their own country, I don't think a ID card is going to stop them. If they are not illegal then they already have the strictest ID checks of all of us.
"They will have loads of uses"
Agreed, but that doesn't mean they should be comulsory. The main uses, of course, will be for the government departments and the companies that they sell the data to.
"I wouldnt care if the goverment knows what im spending my money on at any given time of day"
So you wouldn't mind if they created a profile of you regarding you health and liklihood of cancer (taking into factor alcohol, tabacco, fatty foods bought), so when you go to get insurance your premium matches this profile.
"Yeah there are allready records of what Ive bought [etc.]"
Yes there are records of these things but they are all stored in lots of different places. To get this information together IS possible but difficult and you would really need to be the police. And for me they are really the only people who should be able to find this data and only for good reason.
"All it basicly would mean is you will never be mugged for cash on the streets"
How about your iPod or mobile phone or trainers, or to rape you or becuase you are black or because the guy is mentally unstable.
If fact it is more likely that the who ID cards and database will help organised crime and terrorists. They will be able to get fake records into the databse easily through corruption or technology know-how (they have the money!) And once they do nobody will suspect them because they have the 'right' ID.
And finally (whew!) for all those out there who are defeatist and say 'its going to happen anyway', well maybe it will unless you stand up for your rights and beliefs and try to make and difference and shape this country the way you want it!
There are plenty of other people who are doing it already. See http://www.noid.org/
for more details.
--------------
peace, out
What I would like to do is go through all of the arguments for compulsory ID cards and the national database which will support them and give a different point of view.
Before I start I would like to outline the two major problems
1. Making the ID card comulsory.
The introduction of compulsory ID cards is a change in relationship between the individual and the state. We were born free we have the inherent right to privacy and freedom. As a society we elect servents (the government) to look after certain stuff and we allow them to infringe on our privacy and freedom only when necessary. ie. in a criminal investiagation. By making ID cards compulsory suddenly we have to prove to the government who we are; the government is suddenly GIVING us the privacy and freedom.
Sure if it was not compulsory then why the hell not. I for one won't be getting one, but you can
2. The database that stores the biometric details.
This is really bad news. This system will cost 5.5 billion pounds! (That is if it isn't over budget - anybody remember other government IT projects that have gone over budget?) And YOU will be paying for it either directly or indirectly.
This system will NOT be secure. It will be programmed by people, data entry will be done by people, it will be done by people. People are open to corruption.
------------------
"All this stuff about big brother is watching us. So What I dont care he can come watch me take a dump for all I care
If I'm not doing any thing wrong why should I be bothered"
Would you REALLY like to have video cameras in every room of your house? Is this what you would like? Would you like satelite cameras tracking you? To invade someones privacy you should have a very good reason.
"Civil liberties my bum what is the difference going to be we already get issued with a NI number at 16"
Comparing the ID cards and database yo the NI number is like comparing my old ZX spectrum to the Apple iBook I'm writing this on; fundamentaly the same but in a whole different ball park.
"And if it stops some snotty chav using my debit card to buy stuff with when he nicks my wallet or the thieving postie with my pin number. "
If you get your card nick then call your bank to have it stopped. If your really worried about this pay for the insurance that will refund you the money spent.
"In Germany it's law that you're always able to identify yourself, and I don't mind that."
If the citizens of German have a different relationship to their government then thats their issue. It DOESN't mean that the UK should go that way as well. Plus they don't have a biometric database to back it up.
"How about a microchip implanted in the hand, that would serve as an ID and as digital cash. You don't have to make them mandatory, but just get rid of all other forms of currency."
You will create a two class society, do really want to create such division?
"Also wont it help to ferrit out the illigal imigrents?"
Illegal immigrants are already 'nobody' they generally destory all their ID as soon as they leave their country. They are generally facing death in their own country, I don't think a ID card is going to stop them. If they are not illegal then they already have the strictest ID checks of all of us.
"They will have loads of uses"
Agreed, but that doesn't mean they should be comulsory. The main uses, of course, will be for the government departments and the companies that they sell the data to.
"I wouldnt care if the goverment knows what im spending my money on at any given time of day"
So you wouldn't mind if they created a profile of you regarding you health and liklihood of cancer (taking into factor alcohol, tabacco, fatty foods bought), so when you go to get insurance your premium matches this profile.
"Yeah there are allready records of what Ive bought [etc.]"
Yes there are records of these things but they are all stored in lots of different places. To get this information together IS possible but difficult and you would really need to be the police. And for me they are really the only people who should be able to find this data and only for good reason.
"All it basicly would mean is you will never be mugged for cash on the streets"
How about your iPod or mobile phone or trainers, or to rape you or becuase you are black or because the guy is mentally unstable.
If fact it is more likely that the who ID cards and database will help organised crime and terrorists. They will be able to get fake records into the databse easily through corruption or technology know-how (they have the money!) And once they do nobody will suspect them because they have the 'right' ID.
And finally (whew!) for all those out there who are defeatist and say 'its going to happen anyway', well maybe it will unless you stand up for your rights and beliefs and try to make and difference and shape this country the way you want it!
There are plenty of other people who are doing it already. See http://www.noid.org/
for more details.
--------------
peace, out
Delete
polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005
![polarity]()
veteran
Location: on the wrong planet, United Ki...
Total posts: 1228
SILVER Member since May 2005
veteran
Location: on the wrong planet, United Ki...
Total posts: 1228
Posted:They don't need to put a chip in you if it's against the law to be without an ID card, and the card contains an RFID chip.
The laws in the UK and US have already been changed so that in most cases it is illegal to protest against what the government is doing. All the police have to do is put RFID readers in the streets around a protest and they can easily round up everyone who participated.
The laws in the UK and US have already been changed so that in most cases it is illegal to protest against what the government is doing. All the police have to do is put RFID readers in the streets around a protest and they can easily round up everyone who participated.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005
![Patriarch917]()
I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Total posts: 607
SILVER Member since Oct 2005
I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by:
The laws in the UK and US have already been changed so that in most cases it is illegal to protest against what the government is doing.
I don't know about the UK, but in the US the law hasn't been changed. It still says "Congress shall make no law... abridging... the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Since the "equal protection" clause has been interpreted as applying this restriction to the states as well, no one can make it illegal to protest against what the government is doing. In fact, I think I'll do it right now:
I think the federal income tax should be abolished.
The laws in the UK and US have already been changed so that in most cases it is illegal to protest against what the government is doing.
I don't know about the UK, but in the US the law hasn't been changed. It still says "Congress shall make no law... abridging... the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Since the "equal protection" clause has been interpreted as applying this restriction to the states as well, no one can make it illegal to protest against what the government is doing. In fact, I think I'll do it right now:
I think the federal income tax should be abolished.
Delete
polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005
![polarity]()
veteran
Location: on the wrong planet, United Ki...
Total posts: 1228
SILVER Member since May 2005
veteran
Location: on the wrong planet, United Ki...
Total posts: 1228
Posted:I'd like to see you write that on a placard and stand outside the whitehouse.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005
![Patriarch917]()
I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Total posts: 607
SILVER Member since Oct 2005
I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Total posts: 607
Posted:I've been to the whitehouse. There were people outside it with signs protesting things they didn't like about the government. I would have no problem joining them with a sign calling for tax reform, since we have that right as Americans. Protests happen all the time in America, and the government has not changed the law to make people stop. For examples, check out Cindy Sheehan, who apparently has just returned to her protesting. Protests are also happening right now regarding illegal immigration.
Of course, it is moot whether or not people are actually doing it, or whether the government is stopping them. I only offered a rebuttle to the suggestion that the law has been changed. The law has not been changed in the U.S. Has it really been changed in the UK?
Of course, it is moot whether or not people are actually doing it, or whether the government is stopping them. I only offered a rebuttle to the suggestion that the law has been changed. The law has not been changed in the U.S. Has it really been changed in the UK?
Delete
Posted:no....we protest all the time! we're just not allowed to be violent which is fair enough really.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006
![faith enfire]()
wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Total posts: 3556
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006
wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Total posts: 3556
Posted:has no one seen the news with all the immigrants protesting or around here some police officers were acquitted of beating a guy on grounds of the guy being a danger to self and others. every weekend, people stand out in front of the library in my old town and protest the war and bush. one of the last bills passed in our state capital was recorded to have one of the biggest protest turnouts ever. each day a few people stand out by the clinic that provides abortions for the area. each spring people from the amnesty international go and protest at the old school of americas. (AI actually provides a little misinformation about it but still the protesting is a good thing) people are striking all the time. drive through downtown milwaukee and somewhere each day some people will have a few signs protesting something. there are rules to keep people safe but at least in the midwest we protest a lot. watching cows and corn get boring now and then. truthfully, i am tempted to go find some people and protest the rising cost of health insurance, but haven't found a sane group yet.
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Posted:It is legal to protest in the UK. however you have to tell authorities what, where and how you are going to protest. It is completely possible that the authorities will decide that you can't protest. This argument will probably be based on (false or hyped-up) security reasons.
So we have to ask the government if we can protest.
This, coupled with the fact that 2 million people on the streets of London didn't have an impact on government decision, means that, effectively, protest in the UK is dead.
So we have to ask the government if we can protest.
This, coupled with the fact that 2 million people on the streets of London didn't have an impact on government decision, means that, effectively, protest in the UK is dead.
Delete
Posted:I read somewhere that you now need a permit to protest with banners and signs in the UK...is this true, or did I misread?
Delete
Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003
![Spanner]()
remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...
Total posts: 2790
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003
remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...
Total posts: 2790
Posted:My mum will be refusing to buy an identity card on the basis that, last week, she found her original one which was issued in 1941 and therefore she doesn't require another
"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.
yay,
:R"
Posted:Just got an email from Tony Blair. Which was nice.
Written by: Ol' Tony
E-petition: Response from the Prime Minister
The e-petition to "scrap the proposed introduction of ID cards" has now closed. The petition stated that "The introduction of ID cards will not prevent terrorism or crime, as is claimed. It will be yet another indirect tax on all law-abiding citizens of the UK". This is a response from the Prime Minister, Tony Blair.
The petition calling for the Government to abandon plans for a National ID Scheme attracted almost 28,000 signatures - one of the largest responses since this e-petition service was set up. So I thought I would reply personally to those who signed up, to explain why the Government believes National ID cards, and the National Identity Register needed to make them effective, will help make Britain a safer place.
The petition disputes the idea that ID cards will help reduce crime or terrorism. While I certainly accept that ID cards will not prevent all terrorist outrages or crime, I believe they will make an important contribution to making our borders more secure, countering fraud, and tackling international crime and terrorism. More importantly, this is also what our security services - who have the task of protecting this country - believe.
So I would like to explain why I think it would be foolish to ignore the opportunity to use biometrics such as fingerprints to secure our identities. I would also like to discuss some of the claims about costs - particularly the way the cost of an ID card is often inflated by including in estimates the cost of a biometric passport which, it seems certain, all those who want to travel abroad will soon need.
In contrast to these exaggerated figures, the real benefits for our country and its citizens from ID cards and the National Identity Register, which will contain less information on individuals than the data collected by the average store card, should be delivered for a cost of around 3 a year over its ten-year life.
But first, it's important to set out why we need to do more to secure our identities and how I believe ID cards will help. We live in a world in which people, money and information are more mobile than ever before. Terrorists and international criminal gangs increasingly exploit this to move undetected across borders and to disappear within countries. Terrorists routinely use multiple identities - up to 50 at a time. Indeed this is an essential part of the way they operate and is specifically taught at Al-Qaeda training camps. One in four criminals also uses a false identity. ID cards which contain biometric recognition details and which are linked to a National Identity Register will make this much more difficult.
Secure identities will also help us counter the fast-growing problem of identity fraud. This already costs 1.7 billion annually. There is no doubt that building yourself a new and false identity is all too easy at the moment. Forging an ID card and matching biometric record will be much harder.
I also believe that the National Identity Register will help police bring those guilty of serious crimes to justice. They will be able, for example, to compare the fingerprints found at the scene of some 900,000 unsolved crimes against the information held on the register. Another benefit from biometric technology will be to improve the flow of information between countries on the identity of offenders.
The National Identity Register will also help improve protection for the vulnerable, enabling more effective and quicker checks on those seeking to work, for example, with children. It should make it much more difficult, as has happened tragically in the past, for people to slip through the net.
Proper identity management and ID cards also have an important role to play in preventing illegal immigration and illegal working. The effectiveness on the new biometric technology is, in fact, already being seen. In trials using this technology on visa applications at just nine overseas posts, our officials have already uncovered 1,400 people trying illegally to get back into the UK.
Nor is Britain alone in believing that biometrics offer a massive opportunity to secure our identities. Firms across the world are already using fingerprint or iris recognition for their staff. France, Italy and Spain are among other European countries already planning to add biometrics to their ID cards. Over 50 countries across the world are developing biometric passports, and all EU countries are proposing to include fingerprint biometrics on their passports. The introduction in 2006 of British e-passports incorporating facial image biometrics has meant that British passport holders can continue to visit the United States without a visa. What the National Identity Scheme does is take this opportunity to ensure we maximise the benefits to the UK.
These then are the ways I believe ID cards can help cut crime and terrorism. I recognise that these arguments will not convince those who oppose a National Identity Scheme on civil liberty grounds. They will, I hope, be reassured by the strict safeguards now in place on the data held on the register and the right for each individual to check it. But I hope it might make those who believe ID cards will be ineffective reconsider their opposition.
If national ID cards do help us counter crime and terrorism, it is, of course, the law-abiding majority who will benefit and whose own liberties will be protected. This helps explain why, according to the recent authoritative Social Attitudes survey, the majority of people favour compulsory ID cards.
I am also convinced that there will also be other positive benefits. A national ID card system, for example, will prevent the need, as now, to take a whole range of documents to establish our identity. Over time, they will also help improve access to services.
The petition also talks about cost. It is true that individuals will have to pay a fee to meet the cost of their ID card in the same way, for example, as they now do for their passports. But I simply don't recognise most claims of the cost of ID cards. In many cases, these estimates deliberately exaggerate the cost of ID cards by adding in the cost of biometric passports. This is both unfair and inaccurate.
As I have said, it is clear that if we want to travel abroad, we will soon have no choice but to have a biometric passport. We estimate that the cost of biometric passports will account for 70% of the cost of the combined passports/id cards. The additional cost of the ID cards is expected to be less than 30 or 3 a year for their 10-year lifespan. Our aim is to ensure we also make the most of the benefits these biometric advances bring within our borders and in our everyday lives.
Yours sincerely,
Tony Blair
Written by: Ol' Tony
E-petition: Response from the Prime Minister
The e-petition to "scrap the proposed introduction of ID cards" has now closed. The petition stated that "The introduction of ID cards will not prevent terrorism or crime, as is claimed. It will be yet another indirect tax on all law-abiding citizens of the UK". This is a response from the Prime Minister, Tony Blair.
The petition calling for the Government to abandon plans for a National ID Scheme attracted almost 28,000 signatures - one of the largest responses since this e-petition service was set up. So I thought I would reply personally to those who signed up, to explain why the Government believes National ID cards, and the National Identity Register needed to make them effective, will help make Britain a safer place.
The petition disputes the idea that ID cards will help reduce crime or terrorism. While I certainly accept that ID cards will not prevent all terrorist outrages or crime, I believe they will make an important contribution to making our borders more secure, countering fraud, and tackling international crime and terrorism. More importantly, this is also what our security services - who have the task of protecting this country - believe.
So I would like to explain why I think it would be foolish to ignore the opportunity to use biometrics such as fingerprints to secure our identities. I would also like to discuss some of the claims about costs - particularly the way the cost of an ID card is often inflated by including in estimates the cost of a biometric passport which, it seems certain, all those who want to travel abroad will soon need.
In contrast to these exaggerated figures, the real benefits for our country and its citizens from ID cards and the National Identity Register, which will contain less information on individuals than the data collected by the average store card, should be delivered for a cost of around 3 a year over its ten-year life.
But first, it's important to set out why we need to do more to secure our identities and how I believe ID cards will help. We live in a world in which people, money and information are more mobile than ever before. Terrorists and international criminal gangs increasingly exploit this to move undetected across borders and to disappear within countries. Terrorists routinely use multiple identities - up to 50 at a time. Indeed this is an essential part of the way they operate and is specifically taught at Al-Qaeda training camps. One in four criminals also uses a false identity. ID cards which contain biometric recognition details and which are linked to a National Identity Register will make this much more difficult.
Secure identities will also help us counter the fast-growing problem of identity fraud. This already costs 1.7 billion annually. There is no doubt that building yourself a new and false identity is all too easy at the moment. Forging an ID card and matching biometric record will be much harder.
I also believe that the National Identity Register will help police bring those guilty of serious crimes to justice. They will be able, for example, to compare the fingerprints found at the scene of some 900,000 unsolved crimes against the information held on the register. Another benefit from biometric technology will be to improve the flow of information between countries on the identity of offenders.
The National Identity Register will also help improve protection for the vulnerable, enabling more effective and quicker checks on those seeking to work, for example, with children. It should make it much more difficult, as has happened tragically in the past, for people to slip through the net.
Proper identity management and ID cards also have an important role to play in preventing illegal immigration and illegal working. The effectiveness on the new biometric technology is, in fact, already being seen. In trials using this technology on visa applications at just nine overseas posts, our officials have already uncovered 1,400 people trying illegally to get back into the UK.
Nor is Britain alone in believing that biometrics offer a massive opportunity to secure our identities. Firms across the world are already using fingerprint or iris recognition for their staff. France, Italy and Spain are among other European countries already planning to add biometrics to their ID cards. Over 50 countries across the world are developing biometric passports, and all EU countries are proposing to include fingerprint biometrics on their passports. The introduction in 2006 of British e-passports incorporating facial image biometrics has meant that British passport holders can continue to visit the United States without a visa. What the National Identity Scheme does is take this opportunity to ensure we maximise the benefits to the UK.
These then are the ways I believe ID cards can help cut crime and terrorism. I recognise that these arguments will not convince those who oppose a National Identity Scheme on civil liberty grounds. They will, I hope, be reassured by the strict safeguards now in place on the data held on the register and the right for each individual to check it. But I hope it might make those who believe ID cards will be ineffective reconsider their opposition.
If national ID cards do help us counter crime and terrorism, it is, of course, the law-abiding majority who will benefit and whose own liberties will be protected. This helps explain why, according to the recent authoritative Social Attitudes survey, the majority of people favour compulsory ID cards.
I am also convinced that there will also be other positive benefits. A national ID card system, for example, will prevent the need, as now, to take a whole range of documents to establish our identity. Over time, they will also help improve access to services.
The petition also talks about cost. It is true that individuals will have to pay a fee to meet the cost of their ID card in the same way, for example, as they now do for their passports. But I simply don't recognise most claims of the cost of ID cards. In many cases, these estimates deliberately exaggerate the cost of ID cards by adding in the cost of biometric passports. This is both unfair and inaccurate.
As I have said, it is clear that if we want to travel abroad, we will soon have no choice but to have a biometric passport. We estimate that the cost of biometric passports will account for 70% of the cost of the combined passports/id cards. The additional cost of the ID cards is expected to be less than 30 or 3 a year for their 10-year lifespan. Our aim is to ensure we also make the most of the benefits these biometric advances bring within our borders and in our everyday lives.
Yours sincerely,
Tony Blair
Delete
Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004
![Sym]()
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Total posts: 1858
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Total posts: 1858
Posted:My friends made that site
Nice of him to reply, even if it is all rubbish
Nice of him to reply, even if it is all rubbish
There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees
Deleteonewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Total posts: 3252
GOLD Member since Aug 2002
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Ol' Tony
identities. I would also like to discuss some of the claims about costs - particularly the way the cost of an ID card is often inflated by including in estimates the cost of a biometric passport which, it seems certain, all those who want to travel abroad will soon need............................
........As I have said, it is clear that if we want to travel abroad, we will soon have no choice but to have a biometric passport. We estimate that the cost of biometric passports will account for 70% of the cost of the combined passports/id cards. The additional cost of the ID cards is expected to be less than 30 or 3 a year for their 10-year lifespan. Our aim is to ensure we also make the most of the benefits these biometric advances bring within our borders and in our everyday lives.
Yours sincerely,
Tony Blair
When you email Tony back, can you point out to him the fact that, if biometric passports are inevitable, it would still be possible to avoid the cost by choosing not to have a passport.
Whereas, with the ID cards, it seems to me that it's pretty much compulsory to spend large amounts of cash to buy the combined ID/passort.
Which, would seem to invalidate his point?
identities. I would also like to discuss some of the claims about costs - particularly the way the cost of an ID card is often inflated by including in estimates the cost of a biometric passport which, it seems certain, all those who want to travel abroad will soon need............................
........As I have said, it is clear that if we want to travel abroad, we will soon have no choice but to have a biometric passport. We estimate that the cost of biometric passports will account for 70% of the cost of the combined passports/id cards. The additional cost of the ID cards is expected to be less than 30 or 3 a year for their 10-year lifespan. Our aim is to ensure we also make the most of the benefits these biometric advances bring within our borders and in our everyday lives.
Yours sincerely,
Tony Blair
When you email Tony back, can you point out to him the fact that, if biometric passports are inevitable, it would still be possible to avoid the cost by choosing not to have a passport.
Whereas, with the ID cards, it seems to me that it's pretty much compulsory to spend large amounts of cash to buy the combined ID/passort.
Which, would seem to invalidate his point?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003
![Spanner]()
remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...
Total posts: 2790
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003
remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...
Total posts: 2790
Posted: Written by: Ol' Tony
Yours sincerely,
Lol
Yours sincerely,
Lol
"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.
yay,
:R"
Clairebe
SILVER Member since Jan 2005
![Clairebe]()
Destroyer of kitchen appliances
Location: Liverpool, UK
Total posts: 180
SILVER Member since Jan 2005
Destroyer of kitchen appliances
Location: Liverpool, UK
Total posts: 180
Posted:A national, standardised ID card by itself isn't a bad thing, as long as it's voluntary. Personally, I'd welcome one as I don't have a valid passport at the moment (and if I did, I wouldn't feel comfortable taking it with me on a night out for ID) and I don't drive. I can't open a fecking bank account because I don't have the right ID, unless I pay to get my passport renewed. A card like this would be useful.
However, what the government are trying to force on us bears no resemblance to this. The database is incredibly worrying. As it's been pointed out already, the government doesn't have a great track record of completing the I.T projects it starts and it nearly always goes over budget. It will not be secure, simply because you can't do away with people completely and people can be corrupt. Human error also has to be accounted for. I do NOT like the idea of being on a database like this.
One of the people I work with was falsly accused by the child support agency of fathering a child and not paying maintenance. He has no kids but had the misfortune of being born in the same city on the same day, with almost exactly the same name as the guy the agency was after. Human error - there was a one letter difference in their surnames.
What happens if a similar mistake is made with the ID database? It could lead to people being arrested for something they didn't do. Has it been mentioned that police will have the power to search the database?
However, what the government are trying to force on us bears no resemblance to this. The database is incredibly worrying. As it's been pointed out already, the government doesn't have a great track record of completing the I.T projects it starts and it nearly always goes over budget. It will not be secure, simply because you can't do away with people completely and people can be corrupt. Human error also has to be accounted for. I do NOT like the idea of being on a database like this.
One of the people I work with was falsly accused by the child support agency of fathering a child and not paying maintenance. He has no kids but had the misfortune of being born in the same city on the same day, with almost exactly the same name as the guy the agency was after. Human error - there was a one letter difference in their surnames.
What happens if a similar mistake is made with the ID database? It could lead to people being arrested for something they didn't do. Has it been mentioned that police will have the power to search the database?
My brain is about as useful as a chocolate teapot, but unfortunately not as tasty.
Squueee!
Posted:I don't think it's been mentioned here yet, but yes, I've read in the papers that the police will be allowed access to the database to check fingerprints and forensics. Mr. Blair is trying to say that this will only happen when all other avenues in an investigation have been exhausted, but I'm pretty sure that happens quite a lot of the time!
Idolized by Aurinoko
Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....
Bob Dylan
Similar Topics
Using the keywords [card*] we found the following similar topics.1. Learn > Staff > Magnetic Batons ( Iso Sticks ) Mr Jeff > Matchus gift card *help/resource
2. Forums > The HoP Card Manipulators Thread [111 replies]
3. Forums > UK ID cards [60 replies]
4. Forums > Welcome to Ireland [33 replies]
5. Forums > Poi Card Game [36 replies]
Show more..
© 1998 - 2018 Home of Poi Ltd,
New Zealand unless otherwise stated.
All rights reserved
*All prices converted to United States dollars using XE.com.