Forums > Beginner Staff Moves > staff contact model and notation

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Was bored enough last night to try and make a systematic model of contact staff. i.e. A way of writting down moves in a notation like siteswap for juggling. Though my notation is not very much like siteswap.

feel free to level abuse about the anal nature of such an undertaking, as well as better ideas for names / notation...

So we have six main classes:

Points
Contact Types
Planes
Grips
Entry and Exit
Turns

1) Planes

Denotes which plane a move can be done in.

Horizontal - H
Vertical - V
45 degree - /
All - A

{H,V,/,A}

2) Contact Types

Denotes what type of contact a move makes use of. This can change during a move and use conbinations of types. (like steve = roll + spin)

Types are added together with the + symbol to denote that they use two or more types.

Roll - rl
Wrap - wp
Spin - spn
Step - stp
Stall - stl

{rl,wp,spn,stp,stl}


3) Points

The points on the body at which contact can be done. (This are the 'clean' (ish) points, expecting to be the center of the area mentioned. They do not include such concepts as being upsidedown (where your groin might become a contact point) or stupidity, like butt cracks.) Also known as saddle points by some.

Head
Shoulder
Upper Arm
Forearm
Elbow
Wrist
Hand
Chest
Belly
Upper Back
Lower Back
Back of Neck
Front of Neck
Hip
Thigh
Knee
Lower Leg
Foot

Some of these have interesting things about them. But that would be a digression.

They also don't have any symbols / shortened forms yet, I don't know if that would make it too hard to understand...


4) Grip

3/4 out - 3/4O
3/4 in - 3/4I
centre - C

inwards refers to when you are holding the staff kunckles up horizontally with more of the staff across your body, than outside of your personal space.

outwards is the opposite.


5) Entry and Exit

The Grip and Plane notations can also be appended to the entry and exit information.

Shoulder - S
Waist - W
Under Leg - UL

to denote the otherside of the body use the hyphen -. (Not applicable to UL)
to denote an BTB (or behind other bodypart) entrance use the anglebracket >

{S,W,UL,-S,-W,>S,>UL,->S,->W}

Behind the shoulder (>S) I think does work, because you can twist your arm around enough to get there.
Up for debate in other words.

This basically makes use of the five holes theory, so when I say a waist entrance it means anywhere from above your leg and to under your arm. The same with the shoulder, it encompasses the space from above the arm to the side of the head.


6) Turns

90 - ;
180 - :
270 - :;
360 - ::

can use numbers or notation. Turns are put between moves and are assumed to happen instantaneously, though of course in reality they do not.
direction is not specified, oh dear.

Er well, lets say backside and frontside. With the foot on the same side as the entry staying still. (and the other rotates around it.)
I'll probably need to do a defination of backside and frontside at this point huh?


Movement Notation

finally to make it all fit together:

[PLANE]: [ENTRY] ! ([POINT],[CONTACT TYPE]) [TURN] ! [EXIT]

and one final special notation: * for a direction change.

and
inwards spinning - I
outwards spinning - O

so it would look vaguely like this:

A: >WI!(shoulder,wp)(upper back,spn)(-shoulder,wp)!>WO

simply for a halo roll. (I forgot to mention that you can denote the otherside bodypart with a hyphen as well)

And the exit seems to be assumed to be with the other hand...

ahhh this is sooo geeky I might puke.


Might put in a special way of notating continuous moves, or something, as well as the beats of a movement...

I haven't 'tested' this notation yet... so that'll be fun...


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:*bleeeuuurgh*

this is why i wrote down 7 pages of poi notation, then STOPPED!!!


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:I tried this too, and if you think yours is geeky. you shouldve seen mine. Im a draughtsman so i did it with symbols. squares and circles and such. on the basis that you'd have to read it off the ground smile

Love is the law.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Written by: bluecat

*bleeeuuurgh*

this is why i wrote down 7 pages of poi notation, then STOPPED!!!



only 7? You're such a pussy bluecat. wink hug

I wanted mine human / computer readable, so that I could program weird [censored].


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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T&B
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

T&B

Me
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 607
Posted:Think this is far too complex to be useful. Possible your trying to put to much info into the notation. Taking siteswap as an example I've not found a person that I can't explain what's siteswaps are all about within 5mins also it doesn't try to decribe the whole of juggling (far from it) it take one aspect of juggling which lends itself to notation and ignore the rest.

You can invent notation for pretty much anything but unless it's simple and compact it not going to catch on. good luck trying smile


Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ccensoredt

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:unfortunately, the human body is complex, Which makes any notation of contact complex I think. Site swap is easy and mathmatical because they don't bother with most of juggling, and siteswap only uses the fact that you catch and throw balls with your hands, and then takes that for granted too.



I think if you wanted to make a siteswap like thing for contact staff it would use harder maths and be pretty much entirely pointless. And I still can't remember if a 2 throw is a hold.





adobe: I showed you mine, you've got to show me yours!


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:i like it i think its quite simple just long, well done meg now please translate the rest of the tricks on your site smile

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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T&B
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

T&B

Me
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 607
Posted:Written by: mcp




unfortunately, the human body is complex, Which makes any notation of contact complex I think...



...And I still can't remember if a 2 throw is a hold.







yeah am not sure contact is going to lend itself to notation (that's not saying your notation doesn't work just that in my opinion it's to long and complex to become widely used)



offtopic

a 2 is normally a hold cos it goes back to the same hand and that hand has no beats between the 2 being thown and caught so it doesn't need to make space for another ball to land


Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ccensoredt

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:I think t&b is right

It would work without the points or grips section. or backside and frontside. arent they the same? as is direction...

Turns.. Against Spin... With Spin...

I'll try to dig out what i had. i gave up beacause after a whole day of work (in work), the first person i showed it to looked at me like i had lost my mind. And her mind... it was cool though... and symbols are easier to recognise than LISP wink


Love is the law.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Does lisp have symbols? I thought it just had brackets?

Yeah, I wanted those bits in for completeness... You could maybe do without entries and exits, but those define a lot of variations, so I quite like them.

frontside and backside make a difference re: turn and anti-turn... direction I think matters if you can't be bothered to work it out, or maybe it matters a lot, haven't thought about it enough...


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:I reckon yours looks like lisp..

mine looks like a mandala... smile

front halo, back halo? same same but differnt no?


Love is the law.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:ideally yes, in real terms, no, for this notation possibly yes, but also maybe not, depending on the flexibility of your arms and legs. (You can't (well I can't) hug yourself around your neck, but around the back of the nexk, nor can you bring your knee up (at all) to level the other way.) So some transfers that you mirror to the back won't make physical sense. But it's still a damn good idea, and one that could be fun...

And plus I thought you meant frontside and backside turns, which is what I was refering to above.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Zauberdachs


Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh

Total posts: 220
Posted:you're right you are anal. That makes you gay. We'll never make a good staff spinner out of you frown

The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 3044
Posted:well never would have made the connection that contact staff + anal retentive = gay umm

can we perhaps replace all the letter with Wing-dings chararcters so it looks more cultish smile

Ill have to remember when teaching next time to say "A: >WI!(shoulder,wp)(upper back,spn)(-shoulder,wp)!>WO" instead of "Halo roll" - it doesnt roll of the tongue as nicely but it will amuse my own inner nerd....

err but seriously I have some ideas but my boss is striding down the corridor armed with several folders which look destined for my desk so id better go.
E ubbrollsmile


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:I want everybody to understand the correct pronounciation of the ! and *. The ! is said as 'bang' so instead of exclaimation mark, it's a bang (mark). And the asterisk is a star. so you call it a star.

Just like when you pronouce Zauberdachs it should come out as: Gay German Sausage Loving Dog Boy.

wink hug


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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TheApprovingNinja


TheApprovingNinja

From the Ashes of a Ninja Rise THE HIPS OF RAGE
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 371
Posted:meg seriously i read like two sentances of that first post, most boring thing ever, you take the fun out of staff
ubbloco ubbangel


Viva UGLY STAFF

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SugarCoatedHell


member


Total posts: 33
Posted:i love it. its complete, and if you got to know the terms, its simple and makes you look intellegent. ish. keep up the good work.

There are no witholding taxes on the wages of sin.
~ It ain't a sin to crack a few laws, just don't break them. ~
~ I lost my reputation young, and never missed it. ~
~ She's the kind of girl who climbed the ladder of success, wrong by wrong. ~

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-sandy-
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

-sandy-

old hand
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 716
Posted:coming up with names for all the moves you do is really hard, sometimes a move is half something and half something else, sometimes it doesn't even have a name so having a good notation would be nice. I like your idea meg but i think its too complicated at the moment. However i don't see much of an alternative since to describe acuratly such a variety of complex movements.
Have all the base movements been named? everything i have either come up with or seen other people do is a variation of something i already know.
When does a combination of moves done in sequence deserve its own name? I guess the masses will dictate.


"Don't do it naked!"

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:this is awesome. i like it lots smile

whats a stp? oh, i should do one of them search thingies, shouldn't i?
Written by: meg
]The staff can also 'step'. This is where the centre of the staff is not supported by a body part; while the staff spins, alternate sides of the staff step on the body part as the staff works it's way along


how does step differ from wrap in the notation? After all, most wraps 'step' to some extent, innit?

is it possible to get from any given point to any other given point using any type of contact type? or are there any "impossible" gaps?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mo-seph


mo-seph

enthusiast
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Total posts: 524
Posted:Written by: mcp
The ! is said as 'bang' so instead of exclaimation mark, it's a bang (mark).



You young'uns.

Everyone knows it's a shriek wink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclamation_mark


monkeys ate my brain

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Written by: mcp

ideally yes, in real terms, no, for this notation possibly yes, but also maybe not, depending on the flexibility of your arms and legs. (You can't (well I can't) hug yourself around your neck, but around the back of the nexk, nor can you bring your knee up (at all) to level the other way.) So some transfers that you mirror to the back won't make physical sense. But it's still a damn good idea, and one that could be fun...



Maybe there is a way to show that such bendy exertions would be invalid?

you know the way siteswap has to add up and divide up into something...


Love is the law.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:But siteswap is easy, because juggling is easier to make abstract.

mo-seph you are such a loon. Shriek sounds crap. Plus the first arpa net addresses used eclaimation marks in place of the dots we use today and they were called bang addresses. Because they, like me, but unlike you, were cool.

A step is closer to a stall, but with spin. (it might only be a horizontal thing.) Imagine you have your feet tied to the 2 3/4 points of a staff and your walking over somebodies arms and shoulders. That's the motion a step...


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Simian: I reckon I could modify the above for spinning as well as contact... maybe even for throws for a laugh... And then doubles would be fun too wouldn't it... heh heh heh...

Otherwise lets see what I can make:

Matrix:

H/: -SI ! (-shoulder.wrap)(->shoulder.wrap)(back of neck.wrap)(>shoulder.wrap)(shoulder.wrap)(front of neck.wrap) ! SO

Jesus:

A: WI ! (shoulder.wrap)90b(upper back.spin)90b(-shoulder.wrap)90b(chest.spin)90b(shoulder.wrap)90b(upper back.spin)(-shoulder.wrap) ! -WO

Cont Back of Neck things / cont halo rolls...

A: SI ! (back of neck.wrap)180b(upper back.spin)180b ! SO

obviously you can take the bits in the ! and do that continuously, you can stop turning and do spins on your upper back for a while...

fun fun fun...


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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mo-seph


mo-seph

enthusiast
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Total posts: 524
Posted:It's just struck me that what you really need is a grammar, so that all these continuous moves etc can be generated. Then you can think of what you learn as being new production rules, and generate the new sets of moves you should be able to do.

monkeys ate my brain

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:hopefully you can just permutate all the symbols you have above and then trim to what's realistic. well, that's what i'm going to do....

I have poor grammar... frown


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Printed for next study.



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Zauberdachs


Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh

Total posts: 220
Posted:Written by: TheApprovingNinja

meg seriously i read like two sentances of that first post, most boring thing ever, you take the fun out of staff
ubbloco ubbangel



You got through two lines? After reading the first few words all I got was "gay, gay, gay, gaygay, gay, gaaaay" instead of words wink


The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:: ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol

angry

Get out of my thread!


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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strugz
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

strugz

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Southampton - Possibly..., Uni...

Total posts: 3964
Posted:Written by: mcp




Was bored enough last night to try and make a systematic model of contact staff.





Meg - you really need to get out more wink



But top effort - makes perfect sense to me and shows your level of understanding of the contact stick world biggrin



But really - could you be asred to write posts using all that?



I have trouble with the alphabet as it is ubblol


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:But if I do write rules of grammar for those 'words' above, I can get a computer to produce all possible contact movements (within the current grammar) automatically... That's not geeky is it? wink

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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strugz
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

strugz

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Southampton - Possibly..., Uni...

Total posts: 3964
Posted:no - thats not geeky at all mate ubblol

put down your keyboard and go play with your stick......... whilst not thinking ........ AT ALL ubbloco

ubblol


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."

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