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Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > the best spinner in the world... and the state of spinning today

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:once upon a time, when my horizons were small, and the total number of members on hop was less than my currrent member number(aaah the good old days when i went by mineiro biggrin ), i harboured a secret(hah!) desire and need to be 'the best spinner in the world'

this year, with organising uber events, travelling the world, and being generally reinspired to spin after a year of jugglefever i have come to the following conclusion:

there will never be a best spinner in the world.

i long ago stopped thinking it would be me ubblol but now have stopped thinking it could be anyone.

why?
well. theres a few obvious reasons.
spinning is not competitive, its contemplative. this means you will never be able to judge objectively who is 'better' at spinning. and long may it remain that way.

people have entirely different focuses(foci? focal points? crocuses?). how can you compare RHD to meghan? you can't. simple as that. unless meg spends a year on throws, and antti and tommi spend a year on contact(which, quite scarily, i think they have....). or.. glass and oli. eek! what kind of comparison is that?
and, most importantly, people who have different focuses have got soooooooooo good at the individual sections of what they do that in order to catch up you'd have to give up on another section, allowing some other single minded bugger to totally forge off into the future and blow you away when you look back at what you used to do. some good examples being wibblingmatt, rhd again, meenik hug, devkev, oli... the list is long and there are so many i have not named.

one of the great things about these people, and many of their contemporaries is the new respect that spinning gains within the performing and specifically object manipulation communities. no longer can a snooty juggler(or diabolist, or staff spinner about poi, etcetc) turn round and say 'huh, poi is not worth my time because i could learn everything in a day' (and beleive me, that is an accurate paraphrase from bristol juggling convention three years ago from a top juggler). it takes time and dedication, understanding and insight, openness and a willingness to share to become a top level spinner.

Some kind of conclusion? hmmm. well, er... i don't really have one, and i suppose i'm opening this up for some kind of discussion here. i don't want replies that say 'xxxxxxxxx is the best'. i want to know how people feel spinning is developing and has changed since you started. i want to know what you respect about people that inspire you, and how you feel that inspiration is good for the community at large. i want to know what you don't like about the new spinning community, and how it has been belittled by its incredible growth.

i also recently rebumped an awesome thread of NYCs about 'the london factor' (sorry, no link, cold fingers) i'd like to hear also what you think makes a successful spinning community and why some places deliver one style as opposed to another... er. that'll do for starters. i need a cup of tea.

i one last thing: I consider it an honour that many of the most innovative and exciting spinners in the world are my friends, and choose to spend some of their time sharing their skills and inspiring me to develop mine. thank you all( i think you know who you are).

Rob


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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duvan


duvan

ancient oachkatzlschwoaf
Location: germany

Total posts: 249
Posted:Written by: coleman

duvan - your way of determining the best is highly flawed:

it doesn't determine 'the best spinner' at all - it simply determines 'the best of the performances on the night according to the lay audience (or peers if you go the oscar route) that saw it'.

the spinner that that particular audience likes best is not definitively the best since, for example, i may well be able to do everything they did in their performance (possibly to a higher level) yet chose to not include it in my performance shrug



Ok my very last 2 cents of how I'd define "the best"

It is right that you can say "the best of the performances on the night according to the lay audience (or peers if you go the oscar route) that saw it". But think about the dimensions I was mentioning over and over again. I wasn't talking about a specific audience but more about the whole world as an audience.
And if you could do the things these spinners would do in such a contest then you'd probably take part in it because maybe the 100 most advantaged poi spinners in world would compete against each other. I never said that the winner is "the world's best spinner" for lifetime biggrin
And if you are unhappy with the fact that a lay-audience rates the performances look for a few people knowing sth. about poi to form a jury.

So can anyone tell me how figure skaters are rated at the Olympics? If I'd adopt the general opinion of the people on this board I'd have to say forget about Jevgeni Pluschenko or Stefan Lindemann. See my point ? They also have completely different styles but funnily enough it seems to be possible to rate these performances. And no one really mistrusted the fact that Pluschenko was the world's best figure skater in 2001, 2003 and 2004.

Ok before you start contradicting me - yes of course, figure skaters have a lot of basics. They are training all day long. Right.
But if you would try to get into my point of view it would not be difficult to imagine that somebody might set up a catalogue of moves that had to be involved in a performance ( || figure skating ). I was just bringing up a theory of how to find the world's best poi player. I know that I beat around the bush before but I think that figure skating is a nice "art" , worth being compared to poi concerning competition.

I'm getting tired of talking about these things because I don't sense much acceptance here. It almost seems like you really try to avoid that horrible imagination that poi might become competetive one day wink


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: duvan

ok, let me be the party-pooper but I say there is a way to find out who is the best spinner in the world

just gather the most advanced and talented spinners
have an audience of about 2000 people
and then let them rate the different performances
and - wohoo - you WILL have a winner, mo matter how close the decision is biggrin



I guess that proves that George Bush the best president.

Well done.

ubbangel

It really bothers me that my dad always drives 45 minutes to this pizza shop because he says that wood oven pizza is better than the pizza shop just down the block. I hate wood oven pizza. The bottom is crispy and burnt and the top isn't even gooey or anything. But he loves it. It always reminds me that people have largely differing ideas of what best is.

Besides, if they had a majority vote, it'd be the chick with the boobs doing the weave fast. And that'd be even more depressing.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:shurely it'd be the chick with the best boobs doing the weave fastest?

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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duvan


duvan

ancient oachkatzlschwoaf
Location: germany

Total posts: 249
Posted:Written by: NYC








ok, let me be the party-pooper but I say there is a way to find out who is the best spinner in the world







I guess that proves that George Bush the best president.



Well done.







Questionable example due to manipulations concerning the elections biggrin



edit: disclaimer remember that I am not trying to tell an universally valid truth. I am just telling "my" truth and what I think about these things. I really don't want to offend anybody.

EDITED_BY: duvan (1141664631)


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ZeroG
SILVER Member since Dec 2005

ZeroG

Friendly Fire Fiddler
Location: Munich, Germany

Total posts: 103
Posted:Surfer, skateboarder, extreme skier, skydiver, figure skater, dancer ... half of the Olympics and all of the Xgames have exactly the same problem to rate and compare the not directly comparable.

They usually base their ratings on technicality/difficulty of tricks, fluidity/flow, creativity and something called "style" with encompasses all the above and more (from details like ambience, clothing, music choice to actually the reputation of the player).

As acclamation/applause decisions are generally biased, the ideal judges are usually a bunch of experts ...

So you COULD theoretically define a "best performance" in one moment of time ... at a convention or indirectly via Videos (as does Col in a way) ...

But it looks most spinners prefer it the way it is ... which has proven a good way, friendly worldwide exchange of ideas, lots of personal amicality, near no doping and the possibility to gain fame albeit no fortune by putting out a great video ...


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duvan


duvan

ancient oachkatzlschwoaf
Location: germany

Total posts: 249
Posted:Written by: ZeroG

[...],near no doping[...]




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jap Zero nice post
interesting: the people competing are not begrudgingly and saying "eh mate, well, you might have won this championship but in fact there'll never be a world champion" but they say "jaho, you deserved it because you were better than me"
of course that isn't always the case but quite often.
so you shouldn't always see competition as a bad thing even if you can win lots of money or fame or whatsoever

and that's just what made me
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-ing, the fact, that competition doesn't prevail much acceptance or vogue in the spinning community


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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Oh you guys, of course there can be a best spinner. wink
*Stage whisper*

its ME, of course!
nana

I can spin around at least ten times before I fall over. And I can do it in both directions.

It never fails to please the masses (well okay,more specifically ,masses of giggly four year olds)
ubblol

And I have boobs.
tongue


Seriously, the cooperative, evolving, mutating, merging way poi has developed is spectacular, and I just love the growth patterns and potential within the community.So very inspiring! Can't see why people want to stop playing long enough to judge anything!
smiles,
A


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:as far as Duvan's thing is concerned.. figure skating is a 'performance art'... though many people will argue with me on this: POI is not.. you have many subgroups of poi that are performance related.. they do shows... they live for shows.. but there is a large portion of the community that are not performers.. their form of spinning is quite different.. and it brings out something in them, rather than trying to illicit something in an audience.. and though Duvan you clearly have 'democratic' way of determining the best 'performance' piece.. it tells you nothing about this other group.. it's like meg's comment about art.. some artists do not create their art for the public, only being publicly recognized after their death.. and others create their art for a public that has yet to recognize the profundity in it.. you simply can't compare.. good spinning is like good art.. it simply is..



Written by: alphalight

every spinner got something what another do not have


I don't agree... unless you are talking about something abstract like desire, which amounts to what exactly?
I think that many spinners are highly diversified now.. but that portion is very small relative to the group-at-large.. its a work in progress.. whihc s what this tread is about.. I think we all hold the potential to have something different.. And I think that more people are starting to realize that potential.. but we are still at the very beginning of things imo.. The thing is, poi has developed into something more than rudimentary basics... but developing more than rudimentary basics doesnt mean that we've really moved passed the basics.. and there in lies the problem.. poi may not be something you can master in 6 months, but is still something that can be mastered in less than 5 yrs.. given the right style of practice..
whihc leads me to
Written by: Chronofracture

New spinners should be banned from using the internet, and sent away to develop their own style.


I think this is the right thought.. just backwards.. haha.. see I love exposing the newbs to all of this info because I want them to evolve quicker than their teachers.. There was this law that they claimed back in the day where computers would advance to twice their power, every 18 months or something.. this eventually fell through, but I think it applies perfectly well to the learning curve of poi.. I think that people need to be exposed to as much as possible because poi isnt a linear process, whereas to some degree it used to be.. now, people can take more advantage of the increased learning curve and become '[censored] newbie messiahs' (I believe is how arashi put it) in their own right.. the point is that many of us have dipped off the learning curve.. we all have jobs, or school, or many other things that take away time we have to spin.. Not to mention the fact that we've 'trained' ourselves into such a routine that other mechanics seem hard.. think about normal spin versus antispin.. so many newbs have picked up on this faster than the more advanced compadres-o-mine.. I attribute it to the fact that they never 'trained' themselves to -not- do it.. same with atomics...

I admit that exposing al these newbs to this leads to one problem.. I think Shok has voiced his discontent with this a lot too.. some newbs learn all the advanced stuff.. and skip out on the basics.. and that is crap..

However, I think that its worth it, for those that surge up to head of the class... I remember two years ago when hardly anyone could follow a geek discussions.. now, so many people have something to say.. and each of these new people bring with them new background experience in other areas, that they meld with their poi.. and that's where the real awesomeness comes in, imo.. it's these insights that get brought to the table from other areas that are really pushing us forward.. not to mention the fact that the diversity we have now keeps people openminded.. You get a lot more what ifs now, and a lot less no ways..

Again.. I think that is due to the surge of relatively new people that rise through the ranks REALLY quickly.. if its one thing we all have in the beginning its a creativity, that our lack of skills tends to damper.. the quicker people master things, the less bit of that creativity gets lost..

now I'm not saying that the older people aren't creative.. or that they don't learn well.. I'm saying that newbs have some adavantages here.. whihc doesnt mean the rest of us are disadvantaged.. it means we're normal.. wink


I think the difference comes in with style.. style, imo, only comes with time.. I don't think its something you can develop when your new, because you don't have crap to work with... the moves teach you how to move.. but its the transitions that teach you how to flow.. and there in lies style.. I know people that know TONS of moves.. but those arent part of their style.. so you never see them.. and that's why I think we aren't as diversed as we could be right now... but that's changing.. we're on this cusp where more people are seeking to diversify than to master.. moreover, I think most everyone has moved past the idea of trying to master it all.. which is what I think Rob's main point was...

yeha I'm going to end this now.. becuase I'm sure I'm going to piss off a bunch of people.. but I've delete this post 3 times.. I just cant get it to say what I want to say... but I don't want to not say anything.. so there.. I'll be more eloquent and insightful some other time..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:I'm going to quote my compatriots at glowsticking.com for this discussion, as we had a similar one there.

Written by:

A critique of figure Skating as a sport while being an artform

We all know the comparison for glowsticking and glowstringing to the Olympics in regards to competition. Here is a brief list of reasons why even Olympic figure skating cannot go past the limitations of trying to judge what is fundamentally art. While this article focuses on "values"-- that falling down is worse than grace and fluidity-- it serves to illustrate the problems associated with judging a dance.


Original Article: http://www.slate.com/id/2136701/nav/tap2/
br>

Written by:

It's astounding that figure skating maintains its self-image as an art form in the face of so much flopping. According to the rules, an athlete must display flow, finesse, and an "effortless movement in time to the music." She has to skate with style and clarity, "according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern structure, and phrasing." In other words, she can't just jump and spinshe has to dance.



Why the point system leads to less art and grace.
Written by:

f one of the goals of figure skating is to make it look easy, no one succeeds. To win the gold, you have to abandon any pretense of "effortless movement," and use the fanciest moves you can to scare up points. Never mind that it makes you look like a bungling oaf.





Why it encourages less artistry, more points.
Written by:

You can't blame the skaters for thisthey're just trying to win. It's the scoring system that sets us up for the fall. Until a few years ago, judges rated a performance with two fairly subjective numbers. The first mark, for technique, reflected the difficulty of the program and the cleanness of its execution. You could pump up your technical mark by trying harder jumps, but if you fell down, you'd get a major deduction. The second mark, for presentation, was supposed to reflect the artistry of your performance.





"Judging" System leads to all sorts of problems and biases.
Written by:

The system came tumbling down after 2002's Skategate scandal. The International Skating Union updated its rules, making the technical score far more precise, while still allowing the judges to rate artistic presentation with their usual whimsy




Skaters learn to tweak the system.
Written by:

With such explicit scoring rules, skaters have learned to pad their numbers. A brief look at the chart reveals that a string of fancy moves done badly is worth a whole lot more than a string of simple moves done with grace and lan. What about tumbling on your ass?




Some beautiful moves are lost at the expense of points and crowd pleasers.
Written by:

What about those effortless, eye-blurring spins? I've always found them to be the most compelling part of a skater's performance. Nobody ever falls while doing a spin, but they're thrilling and graceful nonetheless. Some skaters are clearly better at spinning than others, but none of that matters in the end: In terms of scoring, the spin is a chintzy move. One of the highest-scoring spins you can possibly doa perfectly executed flying change foot combination level fouris worth just five points. You could pick up that pocket change just by flubbing a triple axel




Written by:

The very definition of an "art" means that it is a form of expression. Expressions of your inner-self are completely irrelevant to those of others; they are not meant to be compared to those of others. There is no objective criterion to do so, either. Right now, the only types of competitions that I can think of, where an objective judge can be placed, are those based on time - essentially races of any type, to determine who is the fastest. Otherwise, I don't see how competition can be done legitimately.



wes-
Written by:

- much like how jumps will net you more points in the current scoring system, a [popularity contest] means everyone will only focus on "crowd pleasing moves."

- most audience also does not understand the difficulty of some moves, actually, they probably can't distinguish between many different moves. i'm sure everyone has heard non-glowstickers say, "everything looks the same."

that's why its important to keep glowsticking non-competitive, especially because the culture and philosophy behind this dance is also strongly non-competitive.



I've always considered poi to be art, moreso than a "fun hobby", my way of self expression and an outlet of my feelings. I hope that I'm able to show that to you all someday or have in my spinning videos, which will have to hold until I can travel to meet everyone smile


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:I love this thread, I love it more than a fat girl loves cake! (50 cent song lyric reference, for anybody taking offence.)

Duvan's post about his obsession with bluecat and such like: Spot on! That's some good old fashioned blunt honest truth right there, I love it!

in reply to one point: No way! I don't think mcD's is the best, but my opinion doesn't matter, in a democracy the majority matters, and the majority would probably vote for McD's because a) it's the only one they know on a global scale, it's the only one they've ever been too, c) they actually like it. McDonalds, like coca cola, spans the globe, it's easier to get coca cola in some african countries than fresh water. So I think (but it's not a fact) that McD's would win, that or a really popular chinese restaurant, because they have more people in one country than the developed western world.

and to add one more digression, not only is this now perceived 'best' not only a restaurant I hate / have never been to (chinese case) it more than likely a minority choice, since it's not a two horse race. Why is that best?

Supposedly something becomes normal if a majority does it, but I HATE that. I prefer normal to be more ideal.

Written by: coleman

having said that (and this may be because i don't spend as much time spinning as i used to, or possibly even because i am older now and don't see things the way i used to) i find that the london scene is not as vibrant or as full of ambitious, enthusiastic (techy) poi spinners as it was a couple of years ago.




That's cos you is all jaded! And you smoke too much... wink Or could it be cos everybody keeps going on about this dancing malarky... ??? I find myself emphasing the importance of flow, enjoyment and dance more than tech nowadays. (and then I slap myself ) ubbrollsmile

Perhaps drew has had some influence after all... wink

Written by: ado-p

What do i love about the spinning community? The sense of 'massive extended family' i get from it is right up ther at the top of the list.
...
What meg said about people learning to fast. But that probably says more about teaching skills.... And i really get frusrated when people just dont get things that i take completly for granted. Like planes. Muscle memory and a firgure of eight. In short. I wish i was a better teacher.




family: Words, mouth, out of, etc.

I wish I was a better teacher too, but there's no way to really show a noob that they need to learn good planes and transitions instead of the matrix, and it some ways, that's a good thing, cos planes are obviously dull to teach and having a move that people want to learn makes a teachers job much easier. Plus I think everybody that enjoys spinning will have an open enough mind to understand new concepts if they have a teacher there to help them. So hopefully an annoying contact junkie will come back to you again to ask for help when they realise that they need it. (is something like what I'm trying to say)

Plus learning new ways to teach people better is almost as good as learning new moves. Oh no, wait! Argh! <slap's herself> Ok, only half as good, but still good.

and adobe: was that thoughtfull or toughfull? wink

Duvan's second post: This is figure skating as an olympic sport... not as a dance, a form of transport, or as a hobby... The same with gymnastics, in the olmpics it's out to find who is the best gymnast on the floor, dancers would wipe the floor with them, many people can do 'better' flips and tumbling, and many people can put together better displays, but in that arena a certain person wins, because of the context.

I think the 'best' spinner is one that makes you cry tears of joy. Cos then you can use those tears to moisturise your scalp. ubbrollsmile

I don't think any rules of poi would ever work. In my opinion. (but open to discussion, if anybody can be bothered.)

Written by: andrealess

Oh you guys, of course there can be a best spinner.
*Stage whisper*

its ME, of course!




GODDAMN! Arashi inspired ego madness! I love it! How did not think of that the moment I read the thread title! DAMN! I've got to start being stuuuupid again... darn it... biggrin wink ubbrollsmile ubbloco hug

Rev: good points. The hotpot style of new spinners will be interesting to watch and to see what comes of it. But I think you need to quit with the use of ... (I also need to) and start structuring your sentences better. (no offence it's just your posts are hard to read cos they read just like your thoughts. If telepathy was easy everybody would be doing it.)

Yes it's crap they miss the basics, but if they really want to learn, they'll come back to them.

Plus for all us old farts annoyed at newbie messiahs, I find experience always counts. Maybe these noobs can do a matrix already, but you know more about how a toy moves and feels that they do, and that's something that only time can bring. And the vainglorious fact that IN MY DAY, WE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE A MATRIX!

I don't think it's so much that we've trained ourselves into habits of spinning, but that we forget how long things took to learn in the beginning and that we expect more sooner now that we're more experienced (and to a large degree more and sooner is true but sometimes it's that same old slog again.)

and yes it's hard to strike a balance between learning a little and going off and developing new things off your own back, hoping to create a new realm, and learning so much that you can't think of new things. It's a problem in many areas. Maybe there is some research on it.

None the less, much as I would like to, you can't withhold knowledge, it's just not on! ubbangel

biggrin cool


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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LazyAngel
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

LazyAngel

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Cambridge UK

Total posts: 2895
Posted:Duvan: I'm wasn't having a go at you in that post, just telling it how I see it for me personally. I see that you really want to accept any 'negative' emotions in your attitude towards other spinners, and what you are trying to argue is that competitiveness is a force that pushes us to improve, in that we look at someone really good on a video, then say 'wow, I want to spin like that', although that may not be how they normally spin, so that competitiveness is actually a good thing, although I think it may be to blame for people skipping out on the basics. I think competition doesn't get much acceptance, as in general, people don't see it that way, not because we are trying to deny our natures. I think there is a difference between appreciation and envy and I would be inclined to agree with Rev that:

Written by: Rev
you simply can't compare.. good spinning is like good art.. it simply is..



smile

following on from what Rev said, I have to say that I love watching people with different styles. I'm not very keen on spinning where it's all stand and do numerous static tricks, because then you might as well just watch someone do TTN for half an hour. It only becomes interesting with transitions and imagination: I try not to stay 'locked' into one move for too long, as I prefer to see a variety of transitions rather than a variety of moves. But it still happens, because some moves just feel good! ubblove

The awareness of the beauty of non-moves (for want of a better word) was something that I only really hooked into last summer, and it has revolutionised the way I look at poi and given me proper 'awareness' of what I like about different spinners, rather than just looking at people and sayinng 'ooo.... pretty..'


Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant

Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.

'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi

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duvan


duvan

ancient oachkatzlschwoaf
Location: germany

Total posts: 249
Posted:first of all

kael gets more rice by duvan - for this yummy article wink



but I also like the aspects from all of the other people posted here, let me give you a !GRACIAS! muy grande
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for this interesting discussion.



my really really really last statement is: ( I know I'm getting repetitive )

I am still in complete agreement with myself and the things I wrote ubbloco if you imagine that Poi is no more hobby but eg a part of rhythmic gymnastics
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>Max

EDITED_BY: duvan (1141671197)


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Dude! Where's MY rice!

I never get any rice... frown

wink


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:yeah why aren't there any arashi jokes in this thread yet?



i must be gettin rusty, my legacy has faltered.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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duballstar
SILVER Member since Sep 2003

duballstar

slack rating - 9.5
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay, United Ki...

Total posts: 2216
Posted:someone mentioned surfing. there never used to be such a thing as competition surfing. by a lot of surfers it was frowned on when it started. a lot of surfers still don't give a melon for competitions because they think surfing is an art which cannot be judged in a 15min heat, although it can if you want to. surfing isn't about competitions.. it can be but it isn't. i've always thought poi was a bit like that. if you wanna have a poi competition that's fine but you'd be lucky if you could actally get the 'best' people in the world to enter it let alone make it mean anything...

i can't be arsed to say anything any more constructive cos everyone else (oli, rob, cole) has probably already said it.... smile


It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

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T&B
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

T&B

Me
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 607
Posted:if you spin cos you enjoy spinning you might wake up one day and be quite good, if you spin cos you want to be the best you'll wake up one day and decide to give up spinning. even if you could define what it is to be the best you'll probably not going to be it however hard you work (one person would be but there an awful lot of spinner out there)

saying that abit of competativeness can be fun. That why Beer, Wine and Cider is the best vid in the world ubblol


Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ccensoredt

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Written by: arashi

yeah why aren't there any arashi jokes in this thread yet?

i must be gettin rusty, my legacy has faltered.



Does that mean you're like, shooting blanks now?

Yay! An Arashi joke! ubbrollsmile


So like I heard that bluecat isn't as good as he is in videos? And like top models aren't as beautiful as they appear in glossy magazines? G'damn, life is good. wink


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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duvan


duvan

ancient oachkatzlschwoaf
Location: germany

Total posts: 249
Posted:goddamn I really forgot to say sth about mcp's post

will write or let's say edit this message tomorrow because I am way too tired now ..

but most important : here's the rice wink
Non-Https Image Link


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

hug hug

<Kael, Kael! Is this good rice? Do I 'have' rice now?>


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:While I agree that there will never be a "best spinner" there are always the ones who stand out above the rest and are at the top of their league. Generally, those people know who they are too. I dont really see why its an issue though. I feel its pretty n00bish to push for or consider someone 'the best.' I have my favorites, but I keep myself open to new talent and try to stay away from putting such labels on people.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:"Do I "have" rice now?"

No... But you GOT rice.


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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TheGreatSaint
GOLD Member since Oct 2005

TheGreatSaint

Member
Location: , Canada

Total posts: 48
Posted:The only compitition should be with yourself, improving, making mistakes, and learning new things.

You could judge peoples performance, but it would be a popularity contest even objectivley the best spinner would have as close of a chance to an uber noob spiner:

I started in October Last year: On halloween we filmed my spin (Home of Poi was for making poi not finding new moves to practise) I did a basic foreward/downward spin that was slightly off beat (one poi would be at the top while the other was at the bottom) then I'd mix it up a little with a half 3 beat weave (I can still do this, but I've lost my off beat foreward swing due to reflexes). The result was a really cool spin from all directions.

Now I'm doing btb 3bt weaves and reverse weave wraps, and my videos look kinda sad compared to that origional performance.


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KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link


yes meg, you can have rice. hug


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Written by: mcp






But I think you need to quit with the use of ... (I also need to) and start structuring your sentences better. (no offence it's just your posts are hard to read cos they read just like your thoughts. If telepathy was easy everybody would be doing it.)







I'm sorry, but the '...' is because those are how you are supposed to pauses in conversational speech that is typed. I don't type from the point of view of proper grammer, but rather, I type like I talk. I take an informal conversational approach to posting, not an proper english ready for publication approach. I don't know where I got it from. It could have been im's or chatrooms. I dunno. I'm using my school typing approach for this post, so there. I wouldn't expect much in the future though. Most of the time, I only have a few minutes to post, and its easier to type straight conversational, which is sadly sans capitalization and structure.



Written by: mcp




I don't think it's so much that we've trained ourselves into habits of spinning, but that we forget how long things took to learn in the beginning and that we expect more sooner now that we're more experienced (and to a large degree more and sooner is true but sometimes it's that same old slog again.)







good point. I feel that too much is taken for granted now. When you learned the weave, that was it. Learning it hoirzontal was something new, as was learning it over head or btb. Now, all of that is assumed to just 'come along' with learning a move. Now, it really isnt learned unless you can do it horizontal, overhead, and btb. This should contribute to more diversifcation, as people don't always flesh out their moves so completely.



Unfortunately, I think too many people only want to learn certain key moves. That's why so many vides look the same. How many glowstringer videos look different? Not many. How many poi videos look different? Not many. Even with all the diversification we have out there, there is still this sameness. Some of it can be attributed to the small list of possibilities that was poi 3 years ago. And, some of the rest can be contributed to the fact that the categories of diversification are deep enough yet. This is why I said earlier that I didn't yet agree with AP's statement that we all have something that no other spinner can do.



However, I still think we are on the verge of a renaissance. I think these ideas are progressing enough that pretty soon we will start to see more diversification in the videos. The each new area we advance in carries with it half the patterns we knew previously. When you think of the fact that there's been 8-9 of these new areas to pop up, you will see that we've got 4 times the amount of patterns out there accessible to us without venturing into the intercombinations of the new areas with each other. As these permutations build off each other, I think the list of 'key moves I want to learn' will be bigger than the present list 'moves available'. Then, we will see true diversification.



I think all the seeds have been planted. Some visionaries saw it coming. More people see it now. I think there are still many of us that can't fathom this bigger picture, because we simply can't imagine what it would be like. We understand, but we just can't see it. I mean what would it be like to spin a routine made solely of patterns -you- designed. ubblove


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:eep! i leave it alone for a short while and it goes crazy....

this is a reply to maxs post from a while back, i haven't had time to digest all the rest yet to reply....

Written by: duvan




Now there is one question I would love to ask Robbo smile
Do you have any regrets?





nope. i'm crap at regrets. i would have liked to have put more time in, or
done some more crazy stuff... but if i wasn't it was cause i was having fun
with something else(balls, clubs, trombone, girls, comedy, books) so no
regrets

Written by:
Your thread is like "I had a bad motivation and finally found a purer
one".



its not meant to be. that worked for me biggrin and i grew up.

Written by:


When I started spinning a few years ago I watched all of your videos. I
remember you writing when I asked you how to improve my style "Practise like
censored. If you get tired practise more. If it starts to hurt practise even
more. Practise, practise, practise."
With these 3 sentences you really motivated me enough to push myself higher
and higher. You were so to say my only teacher.

So my motivation was to become just as good as you or even better. And I do
not have regrets.

When I met you the first time at the BJC 2004 in Derby I recognized that you
were not that brilliant as you were in your videos. You did not play that
clean and smooth. So please don't be mad with me for being honest redface
but this was a very important insight for me.





not mad at all. i was crap then. i'd been concentrating at something else
entirely for almost the entire previous year

I still consider myself to be a bad spinner. there are heaps of things i don't understand about spinning.

furthermore, when has video-age ever been as real as real life? i'm sorry i disappointed you.

still agree with the practise sentiment. tho now i would say: surround yourself with inspiration, then practise.

Written by:


I started to find out that the way you played in "real life" was not the way
I wanted to play my poi. So I started to develope my own things, my own style
and so on. You see I almost had the same motivation as you had. So one might
think "this poor lil' stubborn boy never felt the real joy of poi" but hell I
did. The "new" motivation for spinning is simply to move my body, listen to
some music and being glad. But it is not that much better than the old one. It
is not more prudent or even fulfilling. Sometimes I miss this personal
challenge, this thrilling feeling of competition





somewhere in there i may have failed to say: 'some of your practise should be in 'how to play and dance''

ah well. i'm glad you found that out on your own.

Written by:


No one of you saw me really spinning since there isn't anybody living in the
Bavarian forest who also takes part in these spinnish things. This is what
made me some kind of bystander concerning the international spinning
community. And this gave me enough distance from all of you to be some kind of
opposition to the typical "we-love-all" mentality wink




typical we-love-all mentality? umm can you explain what you mean by that? i have a feeling i have a fundamental disagreement with this concept as you see it, but i'm not prepared to stick my head out until i know what you mean....

well, that may or may not answer your questions....

incidentally i look back at the videos that you talk about and cringe.... partly because i spin so differently to that now, and (imo) much better(now, no jumping on that, i never said anything about self competition and improving yourself), and partly because i was soooo proud ubblol

anyway. as the lovely and ubertalented richee would say

love nad light

R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:Written by:


i want to know how people feel spinning is developing and has changed since you started. i want to know what you respect about people that inspire you, and how you feel that inspiration is good for the community at large. i want to know what you don't like about the new spinning community, and how it has been belittled by its incredible growth.



for all of you who are arguing over how you can define best in an artistic sense, please stop. there are many threads about that, mostly titled 'poi in the olympics' or something....

thanks

now to get back to wading through posts in order to answer bits of them biggrin


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:incidentally rev, what you have just posted is exactly what i screamed abuse at a couple of years ago in another thread. i'm not going to go for the abuse this time, but i'm going to tell you how utterly, utterly wrong i think you are:




Non-Https Image Link




its all related to your opinion on basics. but i don't want to go into it here (tho i probably should, cause its definitelt on topic. hmmmm.)



ah well. biggrin



rest of its all good tho hug



R

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1141733818)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:That's an interesting idea, working towards being the best in the world at something when there are no clear standards as to what actually defines the best in the world. The ego can cause us to have strange thoughts sometimes.

I've found that in three years of spinning almost every day, that the " same old slog" never really goes away. Sure, I may learn a move, then spend time getting it to the stage where I'm happy with it, only to neglect it and effectively have to relearn it months down the road.

Case in point, turning flowers. I've learned this move, and had to relearn it a few times, and every time it's through that same old slog ( drilling ) method, and if thinking about being the best in the world, would help me through the frustration at having to relearn, then I'd probably employ it. Especially if it were actually was within the realm of possibility, which in Bluecat's case it just might have been. smile

As to the sameness of videos. For many (myself included) THIS is the international community, here, online, and this is where we're learning. We're all using the same text and videos as reference, so it's no wonder that we're all spinning the same moves. Style can vary greatly within those moves, which (IMO) can make them just as interesting as a new move.


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maxime
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

Member
Location: London, Switzerland

Total posts: 17
Posted:very interesting thread.
but that leads me to a more fundamental question
To you, is spinning something to do or to watch?
I thing that the answer to this thread might depend on the answer to this very question.


Pour vous servir.

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Ange_GSC
GOLD Member since Aug 2005

Ange_GSC

HOP's glowstick ambassador!!
Location: Bay Area, California, USA

Total posts: 128
Posted:Damn Kael, I was going to pull that thread out but you beat me to it, lol

missegyptology: "I just remember beingall off balance and unicycling really fast down to campus and the arabic was all blurred on the page"

^When Linz pulls an all nighter before Arabic class^

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