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Forums > Social Discussion > Pizza tycoon building no-sin city

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:So... Tom Monahan, the uber-Catholic former owner of Domino's Pizza, is going to build a city in Florida based around the Catholic faith. There would be no abortion offered in town and drug stores would not offer contraception of any sort (condoms, pills, etc.). There would also be no pornography available, either on TV or in stores, and I imagine a number of other stuff (no liquor stores on Sunday, etc.).

On the one hand, I think people should be able to live as they wish and maybe it's a good thing that if people this fundamentalist want to go off and build a commune and mind their own business maybe it's better.

On the other hand, I do wonder about the legality of reversing state and federal law legalizing abortion. I also wonder if this wouldn't be a good time to start a huge drive among, say, 1000 or so gay couples to move in since they can't discriminate on housing... devil

CNN.com: Pizza Tycoon Building No-Sin City

Written by: CNN.com
New Florida town would restrict abortion

Domino's founder building community around Catholic university

NAPLES, Florida (AP) -- If Domino's Pizza founder Thomas S. Monaghan has his way, a new town being built in Florida will be governed according to strict Roman Catholic principles, with no place to get an abortion, pornography or birth control.

The pizza magnate is bankrolling the project with at least $250 million and calls it "God's will."

Civil libertarians say the plan is unconstitutional and are threatening to sue.

The town of Ave Maria is being constructed around Ave Maria University, the first Catholic university to be built in the United States in about 40 years. Both are set to open next year about 25 miles east of Naples in southwestern Florida.

The town and the university, developed in partnership with the Barron Collier Co., an agricultural and real estate business, will be set on 5,000 acres with a European-inspired town center, a massive church and what planners call the largest crucifix in the nation, at nearly 65 feet tall. Monaghan envisions 11,000 homes and 20,000 residents.

During a speech last year at a Catholic men's gathering in Boston, Monaghan said that in his community, stores will not sell pornographic magazines, pharmacies will not carry condoms or birth control pills, and cable television will have no X-rated channels.

Homebuyers in Ave Maria will own their property outright. But Monaghan and Barron Collier will control all commercial real estate in the town, meaning they could insert provisions in leases to restrict the sale of certain items.

"I believe all of history is just one big battle between good and evil. I don't want to be on the sidelines," Monaghan, who sold Domino's Pizza in 1998 to devote himself to doing good works, said in a recent Newsweek interview.

Robert Falls, a spokesman for the project, said Tuesday that attorneys are still reviewing the legal issues and that Monaghan had no comment in the meantime.

"If they attempt to do what he apparently wants to do, the people of Naples and Collier County, Florida, are in for a whole series of legal and constitutional problems and a lot of litigation indefinitely into the future," warned Howard Simon, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida.

Florida Attorney General Charlie Crist said it will be up to the courts to decide the legalities of the plan. "The community has the right to provide a wholesome environment," he said. "If someone disagrees, they have the right to go to court and present facts before a judge."

Gov. Jeb Bush, at the site's groundbreaking earlier this month, lauded the development as a new kind of town where faith and freedom will merge to create a community of like-minded citizens. Bush, a convert to Catholicism, did not speak specifically to the proposed restrictions.

"While the governor does not personally believe in abortion or pornography, the town, and any restrictions they may place on businesses choosing to locate there, must comply with the laws and constitution of the state and federal governments," Russell Schweiss, a spokesman for the governor, said Tuesday.

Frances Kissling, president of the liberal Washington-based Catholics for a Free Choice, likened Monaghan's concept to Islamic fundamentalism.

"This is un-American," Kissling said. "I don't think in a democratic society you can have a legally organized township that will seek to have any kind of public service whatsoever and try to restrict the constitutional rights of citizens."

(Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.)



-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:i just cant work out why people would believe the world was createdc in 6 days and that it someething like only 10,000 years old..............there are fosils that are millions of years old, there is scientific evidence that the earth is millions of years old. even before man kind was about the earth was there.

don't get me wrong the british empire was cruel what with slavery, the ivory empire, all you have to do is look back to colonial india and what they did to the people there.

but then where the spanish or the french any different?

the spanish are rumoured to have wiped out the inca and myan empires, raped and plundered their lands


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Gremlin_Lou
Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 29th May 2005
Total posts: 131
Posted:Hmm, we can't blame todays Catholics for the Spanish Inquisition, but one of my friends kids goes to a multi-faith school in his Yamulka and is asked why he killed Jesus? That statement will have come from a parent, not the mind of a 4 yr old.....

Double Standards me thinks...

Will this town be breaking any laws? Its no different really to single faith 'ghetto's' that build up anywhere there is a group of similar people, its just more planned....


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Gremlin, I never said blaming your friend was okay... so if there's double standards they don't come from me. I've been called responsible by Jews for the holocaust, so I know how it feels wink



To both you and ravehead, this is exactly what I meant. Noone whose way of life is to try and not hurt people (and to be fair, unless proven otherwise, this IS a Christian principle and we should assume that the people in that town try and uphold it) should be blamed for something their religion, country, race or family did when they weren't even born, period.



Ravehead, you've kinda explained my point without understanding it ubblol hug Sometimes I think people on here are TRYING to misunderstand me ubblol


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:did i?? cool haha ubblol

i just think its wrong the a group of people should shut themselve off from the world in this age of tollerence and understanding. it sounds like they are going backwars rather than forwards


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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:Written by: Patriarch917

Getting together with a bunch of like minded people to start a community is a time-honored tradition that has been very popular and has worked reasonably well. Some past examples are:

The Pilgrims in America
The Mormons' move to Salt Lake City
Monasteries (Christian and otherwise)
Hippie Communes
Nudist Colonies
Gay Bars





er, i don't think any of those are quite the same thing really (apart from maybe mormons...i don't know enough to comment on them)....pilgrims were escaping persecution in thier own country...

monasteries are places that a few extremely devout people go to live a certain kind of life on a small scale, often not seperated from the community at all, plus this is generally done in a positive way - i.e. not escapism, but as an example and to help people, outreach programmes etc.

hippie comunes as well, small scale, people still have to leave them and are essentiall part of a wider community anyway - well, i haven't found one yet that is totally cut off and self sufficiant.

nudists have to be seperate because they are kind of outside the law, and again, have to leave sometimes to work etc. they are also only representing one rule for living (nudity) and not telling people how to live apart from that. not certain about this..but i guess they are all consenting adults as well.

you don't live in a gay bar!

what this guy is talking about is a self-contained city where people would never have to leave. in my view this is a fairly unhealthy way to live (see last post!), not to mention all kids who will never be shown an alternative to what their parents want....my dad is catholic & i'm b****y glad that i know different!

but then on the other hand, they're not really hurting anyone except maybe themselves, so good luck to them.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:Written by: Tao Star


what this guy is talking about is a self-contained city where people would never have to leave. in my view this is a fairly unhealthy way to live (see last post!), not to mention all kids who will never be shown an alternative to what their parents want....my dad is catholic & i'm b****y glad that i know different!

but then on the other hand, they're not really hurting anyone except maybe themselves, so good luck to them.



You did notice that the claims in the first post turned out to be wrong, right? Nobody is actually building a catholic city. We are talking about a theory here, not something that is actually being done.

http://www.avemaria.com/news/pressRelease.asp?inc=PR03022006


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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:yeah....i read it. just an academic point.

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: ravehead

did i?? cool haha ubblol

i just think its wrong the a group of people should shut themselve off from the world in this age of tollerence and understanding. it sounds like they are going backwars rather than forwards



Tolerance and understanding for who?

I suspect that many of those who take their religion seriously may not feel that tolerated, especially those who are feeling the urge to form their own communities.

A look thorough most HOP threads on religion will show views that seem fairly intolerant of those with strong religious views. Of course, some of those critisism are justified by the fact that some religious people are themselves displaying intolerance or imposing their views on others- however, there does seem sometimes to be a tendency to tar them all with the same brush.

Personally, I totally understand why some religious would wish to form their own communities and structure them according to their views.

Look around our communities; even from our perspective they're far from ideal, with drugs (both 'recreational' and abused), teen pregnancies/abortions, violence, ineffective schooling etc, being rife.

Of course this doesn't mean that a catholic approach, or indeed, any approach, can lead to a better community; but, given the sad state of our current ones, it's no surprise that they want to try.

Personally, I used to hugely distrust all religious organisations and consider religious people to be weak-minded.

Over the years I've very much altered my views- I've met christians who seem to very much have a good handle on their lives and I've come to realise that, where being basically good is concerned, a persons religious beliefs, or lack of, are pretty much irrelevant- I've certainly encountered many idiotic and arrogant athiests.

Having done a few circus skills/craft workshops in religious schools, I've certainly noticed a big difference in attitude compared to stanard UK secondaries- there seems to be a fundamental decency, and respect which is very much lacking in the standard schools.

Whatever the potential negative aspects of schools based on religion, the fact remains that children there seem to be in an environment where learning can take place (in sharp contrast to many standard secondaries I've encountered).

As for 'tolerance', in some ways I'm starting to mistrust it- I've found that many of those who seem to pride themselves on their 'tolerance' only apply it to those whose views are largely similar to their own, and that they are remarkably intolerant to anyone who disagrees with them.

And, if our current society is the end product of 'tolerance' and choice, then I feel that somewhere along the line, something went very wrong. Personally, I feel that, if we're summing up the basis of communities in single words, maybe we should give 'decency' a turn?

As far as I can see, there's no reason whatsoever why that can't be done with no mention of religion whatsoever- but, whatever the reasons, that doesn't appear to be being attempted.

So, if it's only religious people who want to attempt to create communities based on 'decency', then good luck to them, and, if they feel it's best to do that well out of the way of our present societies, it's hardly surprising.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Basically you've got your basically good people and your basically bad people.

Basically good people are always going to do good things no matter what their religion. And the opposite is true of the basically bad people. Religion is largely irrelevent when it comes to the person's core behaviour. And being completly rational doesn't make a person any nicer either.

Look at me, I'm basically Hugh Laurries character in House. Arrogant to a fault, but I'm still a good man even if I do grate people more than lemon zester. I would probaly still be exactly the same if I'd been indoctrinated in Catholicism or Islam or anything else.

I'm going to go off on some huge meandering train of though if I keep going so I'll cut off here. wink


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Good words OWD ,

I've come to many of the same conclusions over the course of my life, and also come to the realization that some people just HAVE to have an enemy


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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:i'd like to ask this...... i smoke a bit of herbs now and then, i don't go out thieving of fighting, although what i do in the eyes of the law it's illegal, dose that make me a bad person?

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Answer's simple!

Not to me, not to most people I know, but probably to some I know and definitely to a lot of people I don't. In some people's eyes it'll be bad not because it's drugs but because it's against the law. In others' not because it's illegal but because it's drugs. Others will just think you weak, or assume that you have problems with yourself, or think you're stupid because it'll hurt your lungs and you waste money on it. Some will like you because they do the same, some because they think it's cool, and some because they might want to use your dealers or get some off you when they don't have any.

The same with everything. If it's someone's fervent belief that people whose name begins with an A should be punched in the face once a week, and he belongs to a group of people that believe the same, then they will think he's right, most people will think he's wrong, and some people will say "if they think they have to..." (though in that case that's not many). And it's the same for every religious or political rule that is kept or broken, it will always offend some people, seem silly to some, not interest quite a lot, and find some support smile


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Weed is still illegal where you live? Oh, it is here too, I keep forgetting wink

In my eyes smoking a bit of herb now and then doesn't make you a bad person, simply because smoking can be viewed as a victimless crime. Note the "can be", I put that in there because we already have threads exploring dope laws, and I'm hoping this one won't go down that road.

Suppose in the U.K. they designated a state/county/shire where weed was legal, would you consider moving there? Suppose one of the conditions was zero tolerance for hard drugs? Would you still move there? Keep in mind, that there's nothing stopping you from leaving said community.

Bring up the Ave Maria website, read it, and mentally substitute the word stoners for the word Catholic...Now can you see the appeal of a community such as this?


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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Is Catholicism illegal in America now? wink

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: ravehead


i'd like to ask this...... i smoke a bit of herbs now and then, i don't go out thieving of fighting, although what i do in the eyes of the law it's illegal, dose that make me a bad person?





No, it doesn't make you a bad person.

I used to smoke (more than a bit) of herbs myself and, since completely cutting it from my life more than 5 years ago, I still don't consider that I was then a 'bad' person.

I do think that smoking herbs itself was bad for me, which is why I put effort into quitting it.

More controversialy, as I have expressed in detail on previous HOP drugs posts, I also believe that smoking herbs is bad for most people who do it (not just the physical damage but also the mental and emotional effects), but I still don't think that makes them bad people.

Personally, since quitting herbs and quitting tobacco, I tend not to socialise with nearly as many smokers as I did in the past. I do still have some friends who smoke (both herbs and tobacco) and am happy to be in their company while they do so.

But obviously, as a non-smoker, when making new friends, I'm going to tend to end up mixing more with those who don't smoke, purely because I find that smoke makes me feel ill and because, for many herb smokers, it is the acquisition and consumption of herbs that are part of the reason they are together- obviously, that aspect is something I'm not part of.

When it comes to extreme smoking environments such as pubs, or parties based primarily on drugs; I avoid them cos being there is a waste of my time, for many reasons.

So, in that sense, I am kind of doing what these catholics are.

But, then again, doesn't everyone like to stick to their own communities? I suspect that not many athiests go to church or get involved in church run events, despite the fact that many church-goers are good people and do good things- it's not 100% about God smile

Similarly, many 'hippies' don't like mixing with 'suits', despite the fact that many 'suits' are totally decent people.

Catholics setting up a town based on 'decency' and religious principles obviously would rather herb smokers and drug users weren't living in their town.

But let's not extrapolate from that, that they think people who smoke herbs are bad people. I'm sure many will be a lot more aware and tolerant than that- they may think drug use is (on the whole) bad, that does not necessarily mean that they consider drug users to be bad people.

They just want to live in a different place to those who do use and approve of drugs- isn't that fair enough?

Why not give these people the benefit of the doubt- let them get on with it and view it as an experiment? Fifty years down the line maybe it will be apparent whether or not their approach to community has real benefits, or whether it's a failed experiment.

Like I said before, our current models of community can hardly be said to be working well can they?

It makes sense to me to have a few different models being tried out, enabling comparisons and hopefully leading to everyone learning a bit more.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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