Forums > Social Discussion > South Dakota outlaws abortion

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:BBC news story.
If you're in South Dakota abortians are now all but outlawed.

It's very sad that in this day and age the religious right has made this much head way. The anti-choice groups are trying to provoke a supreme court chalenge, aimed at over turning the Roe vs. Wade ruling which made abortians legal in the first place for Americans. If they succeed then abortions will once again be illegal across all of the united states (correct me if I've got my US legal code wrong).

Quite frankly this is a moral disaster. The rights of women to control their own bodies took a long time to win. It had to be fought for at every stage and now it looks like it's going to be eroded away again. I'm thankful that nothing like this could ever happen in Britain but it's still disheartening to see America heading back to the dark ages. frown


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:spiralx, I agree that we have developed a sense of morality as a learned response over a long period of time. Its not hard wired in though. What do you mean by evolved, because as far as I know we have not evolved as a species.





Its difficult to treat people you don't know the same, because its part of our survival mechanism.





smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Well unless you believe in Creationism of some kind we have evolved as a species... *shrug*

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:And unless you believe in some sort of external, non-evolving absolute morality, it is possible for us to change our opinions of what is moral or not. If morals are dependent on human interests, and humans change what they are interested in, morality changes.

Thus, morality can rapidly evolve. In the past, cultures have approved of infanticide, then changed their minds. In the past, South Dakota accepted abortion, now they do not. If there is no outside standard by which to condemn the morals that humans create for themselves, then we should just accept it as "moral" for that society.


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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:IMHO, if you're not having protective sex, you should be prepared to raise a child. (or contract an STD). Abortion, to me, is murder.
I dont think outlawing abortion is a good idea though, because people may go about DIY abortions.
I do, however feel that outlawing abortions may make people think abit more before they have sex. Let's hope so anyway.


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:jo_rhymes.....you're taking the opinion that all protected sex then would not result in a pregnancy. or that people have the choice sometimes. there are FAR too many extraneous variables you have to consider. first off, what about pregnancies that result from rape and incest? you think those women should be prepared to raise a child because by definition, they had unprotected sex? secondly, recall NO birth control method that allows for intercourse is 100%. the pill is 96%. condoms are i think 97 or 98%. there's still that small percentage no matter what the method you use. and what about married couples? there are some women who are in their 40s and 50s, sometimes even thinking they've hit menopause, and suddenly find themselves pregnant. at their age, there are many who aren't prepared to raise (another) child, plus it puts the baby at risk for so many different birth defects, down's syndrome being the most common. it's not so cut and dry and you're trying to make it.

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:You're right pounce. Which is why I don't think outlawing abortion is a good idea. smile

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:So spiralx, what is this new species called ???? wink

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Gremlin_Lou
Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 29th May 2005
Total posts: 131
Posted:Maybe only abortion in cases where the pregnancy was in forced upon the female in question? So rape, incest, forced marriage....but if an abortion goes ahead, so must a prosecution. If you have unprotected sex, and get pregnant, you should have to carry the baby to term, give it up for adoption, and give 15% of all your income to the family that adopt to help raise it and put it through college etc.

Theres to many ways to stop gettin pregnant now to use the excuse of unprotected sex - condoms, the pill, coils, morning after pill, the patch etc. If you get pregnant, it is in fact your own stupid fault and the baby shouldn't have to suffer. The morning after pill isnt abortion, so why not use that if contraception fails?


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted::P We have evolved as a species, not into a new species.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:I think we can take it for granted that I disagree totally with pretty much the entirity of Lou's last post. I find the callous and dismissive attitude towards women who have gotten pregnant by mistake rather troubling, but what do I know?



Written by: Gremlin_Lou


The morning after pill isnt abortion, so why not use that if contraception fails?



The morning after pill is considered abortion by many as it prevents the successful implantation of a fertilised zygote. If you argue from a religious point of view that soul implantation occurs at fertilisation then it is the same as murder.



In many cases the women involved are uneducated and don't know how to access the pill, and sometimes it doesn't work. There's a whole myriad of psychological and physical reason why people can get pregant without meaning to.



Personally I think that the pill is more or less the same as abortion, but since it occurs at such an extremly early stage there doesn't need to be any major restrictions on it as you get with actual abortion.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:I may be wrong but
I believe that the morning after pill will prevent implantation, but it will also kill a zygote? that is attached. It will make the walls too slippery to stay attached to, not just find a footing. So it works in two ways. That was my understanding from a doctors explanation
is that right or no?


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Preventing implantation will indirectly kill the zygote. Unless it can succesfully implant into the uterus it will simply continue out of the body and die from lack of sustainance.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:I may be wrong, but sperm can survive for up to 3 days inside a female after sexual intercourse. In this time an egg may or may not become fertilized. Surely taking the morning after pill only prevents the sperm from reaching the egg, therefore a zygote will not be formed. Which means taking the morning after pill is not "abortion".

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:you all ar forgetting an important point too.....the morning after pill isn't readily available, and in fact, in some places is actually banned.

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: jo_rhymes

I may be wrong, but sperm can survive for up to 3 days inside a female after sexual intercourse. In this time an egg may or may not become fertilized. Surely taking the morning after pill only prevents the sperm from reaching the egg, therefore a zygote will not be formed. Which means taking the morning after pill is not "abortion".


That would be the morning-before pill. Different pills, different functions.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:Written by: pounce




you all ar forgetting an important point too.....the morning after pill isn't readily available, and in fact, in some places is actually banned.



good

if it was readily available, people don't think that it would change the way people have sex but I am not convinced. The only way it should be available is by prescription or by ER. I do like the idea that legal action should be pursued but I also know that some women would rather not report an incident--different reasons. maybe this would convince more women to report on the otherhand and more scum can be taken off the streets


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:Jeff is correct on how the morning after pill works, but it's actually not a "different pill, different function." The morning after pill is a tripple dose of the chemicals used in normal birth control pills. Regular birth control pills will also irritate the lining of the uterus. If you concieve a child while using "the pill" (happens fairly regularly), there is a chance that the child won't implant properly once it makes it's way to the uterus.

This "back-up" plan in the regular pill is the primary function in the "morning after" pill. Both of them technically can cause abortions.


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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:I checked it out.

The primary function of the pill (not the morning after variety) is to prevent ovulation. It also thickens the mucus around the cervix as a side effect which may also help prevent fertilisation.

It also thins the endometrium, which some have taken to mean it is abortative in the manner of the morning after pill, although the medical censensus is that this does not decrease the likelyhood of a fertilised zygote implanting.

All in all it appears that the religious concern over the pill (not the morning after variety) is unwarrented.

Frankly the concern over the morning after pill itself is simply madness. A zygote is just a few cells, not a human being.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:actually the morning after pill is readily available. you can buy it over the counter.

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:At least in Britian.

Thankfully we quietly keep our more fundementalist religous types out of public office. Most of our clergy are bordering on agnosticism. wink


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:True ubblol
I have only taken the morning after pill once. And that was because of non-consenting sex. I threw up all day. It's enough to put you off sex altogether (that and the non-consenting sex bit of course).


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:Written by: faithinfire






good

if it was readily available, people don't think that it would change the way people have sex but I am not convinced. The only way it should be available is by prescription or by ER. I do like the idea that legal action should be pursued but I also know that some women would rather not report an incident--different reasons. maybe this would convince more women to report on the otherhand and more scum can be taken off the streets





ok there's so many things wrong with that post, i don't even know where to start. first off, IF (and this is a major if) it's not banned where you live, it's not available OTC. you have to go to a doctor to get the prescription, and more often than not, get shamed in the process if not entirely denied.



secondly, do you not realize what our justice system does to survivors of sexual assault? or even stats on who realistically offends? here's a few statistics for you (this is only on USA, i can't speak for other countries)



over 67% of offenders are by someone the person knew, 17% of that being by an intimate and 3% being by a relative. we're not even talking about juveniles....then that rate rises up to 93%, with 34.2% being FAMILY and 58.7% being aquaintences. how can you expect a juvenile, for one, to report a sexual assault which by nature is a humiliating and shaming experience, but even worse, when it's done by someone in their family.



then let's just look at the realistic punishment. not only do we put the survivor on trial (let's just look at the Kobe Bryant trial if we really want an example), but the way we punish offenders is appalling it's almost laughable.



61% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police. Those rapists, of course, never serve a day in prison according to the 2003 National Crime Victimization Study.

* If the rape is reported to police, there is a 50.8% chance that an arrest will be made.

* If an arrest is made, there is an 80% chance of prosecution.

* If there is a prosecution, there is a 58% chance of a felony conviction.

* If there is a felony conviction, there is a 69% chance the convict will spend time in jail.

* So, even in the 39% of attacks that are reported to police, there is only a 16.3% chance the rapist will end up in prison.

* Factoring in unreported rapes, about 6% of rapists1 out of 16 will ever spend a day in jail. 15 out of 16 will walk free.



that doesn't even calculate the actual sentences we give rapists....they spend less time in jail on average than drug dealers.



i'm sorry, i'm 100% for reporting, but i also know the reality. and with a reality like that, i woulnd't want to report a rape either. i've been there, i've had my entire life put on trial because i stood up for myself. i can't even imagine what would have happened if i had gotten pregnant and then had to defend my choices then too. i don't think making the morning after pill difficult to obtain or even banning it is going to make any woman be more willing to report a sexual assault.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:I like the fact that a person who has had unconsenting sex can safely prevent a child being created that they do not want, cannot deal with or do not need.

I like the fact that if our condom breaks, my GF can get an over the counter solution that doesn't involve parental consent, a trip to her GP or any other public knowledge. Fast, efficient, subtle solution to the problem. I don't want to raise a kid because our method of contraception failed. I don't think I could support it.

That's why I like the Morning after pill.

It's also several reasons why I support early term abortions.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:I may have mentioned this earlier. In Australia, we have just had a huge parliamentary debate on RU486. I thought the politicians did a good job because it came down to a conscious vote, where politicians could vote by conscious rather than on party lines. The bill was passed, though John Howard, PM and leader of the reigning conservative Liberal party, who lost the vote, decided to put something like $50 into family planning.

This would have been an excellent idea except the money for counselling services will only to go to family planning centres that do not advocate abortion. Im with Democrats Senator Natasha Stott Despoja on this one. She says that without regulation there is no guarantee women will receive non-directive advice. They need a safe non-judgemental space with information that is unbiased," she said. full story


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:it just mkes you realise how unbelievably lucky we are in this country.

i've had the morning after pill 3 times, all through condom breakage.

the only embarassment i've ever been caused is walking through a waiting room with a bottle of my own pee in my hand (!)

i've always had advice on any question i asked, plus a lot more.

the only time i've actally been told to do something was when the nurse told me to stop smoking redface

these times were traumatic enough with the threat of pregnancy looming over. i for one am very greatful that we have such an open minded and helpful system.

i just feel very lucky!


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:Tao Star and Sethis biggrin I agree totally.
I dont agree with induced abortion though, when a foetus is already developing.

What really breaks my heart is that my best friend is desperate for a second child, but she has polycystic ovaries and has miscarried so many times. It's heartbreaking. She was told when she was 19, "if you want children, you have to try now, because each day, your ovaries are getting worse". Her first child is nearly 4 and it looks hopeless she'll get a second.
It seems so unfair that so many of us see pregnancy at the wrong time a nightmare, whereas others are out there desperate for a kid. fullstop!


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:Written by: jo_rhymes




Tao Star and Sethis biggrin I agree totally.

I dont agree with induced abortion though, when a foetus is already developing.



What really breaks my heart is that my best friend is desperate for a second child, but she has polycystic ovaries and has miscarried so many times. It's heartbreaking. She was told when she was 19, "if you want children, you have to try now, because each day, your ovaries are getting worse". Her first child is nearly 4 and it looks hopeless she'll get a second.

It seems so unfair that so many of us see pregnancy at the wrong time a nightmare, whereas others are out there desperate for a kid. fullstop!



ditto

And for the record, my opinion is never wrong, (traveling off topic) just like anyone elses is never wrong. I did not say that it should be an absolute necessity that in order to get RU486 for nonconsenting sex they should file some sort of criminal compliant. I know that it is an embarrassing situation and very difficult for someone to go through but these people are still out there. Chances are the forcer is not just going to do it once. Is it realistic? Why are people put on trial because they cry rape and incest? Because rotten people say that they have been to get back at someone or because they got pregnant. Here in Wisconsin, Mark Chumura was put on trial because a girl accused him of rape. I knew that girl well, and she had it out for him, because he rebuffed her. She talked about how she was going to get him and suddenly this story broke on the news. Another girl from high school said her boyfriend raped her after she found out she was three months pregnant. Too many of my friends have faced prosecution because some girl was mad at them and decided to say that he assaulted her

Before you say that I dont know what I am talking abouthave had unexpected pregnancies but lost them, been raped and all the other versions that really mean the same thing. I often put myself in situations that invited it when I was younger. The worst one was when I didnt say anything and they found a woman brutally beaten and raped behind my exs house.



Some opinions are better supported than others. Some are something that are closer to gut beliefs. I take great offense to someone saying my opinion is wrong.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:i didn't say your opinion wrong. i said there were several things in your post that were wrong. there's a distinction. i was referring to facts, not opinions.

and i'm sorry, but i don't believe AT ALL that anyone "invites" being raped. that kind of attitude is why women are constantly put on trial. just like this notion that women "cry rape" in order to get back at someone. yes, it has happened, sadly, and even worse it makes it harder now for women who are rightly reporting. but the statistics as to the percentage of accurate versus false charges isn't even comprable.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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seanfunston
newbie

Member Since: 13th Mar 2006
Total posts: 1
Posted:Check out this site:

Invested Interests.com

If you are interested in knowing what companies support/do not support abortion rights, they have a huge database with that information.

I recently stumbled on it from an Alternet.org article. The tools on the site allow you to do your own social investing. And their articles are cool too.

I talked with an advisor and she answered a question I had about social mutual funds. They also have a forum and I think their advisors are moderating the discussions.

It's about time I get started on my IRA!

I am new to Home of Poi, but have been reading in the social section for awhile now.

Later,
Sean


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afghan_bingo
afghan_bingo

member
Location: Calgary, Canada
Member Since: 20th Sep 2005
Total posts: 116
Posted:before i start id like to state that i havent read any of the above posts cos quite frankly i couldnt be bothered and time is tight. so heres my thoughts...
abortion is good, it keeps unwanted kids and stupid tennage pregnancies down (which further strain the benefit system, a system which is inherently designed to help the needy, not the stupid) dont just think about the parents think about the (possible) child, imagine a 15 year old girl got knocked up by a 40 year old man, shes an orphan and her parents wont foot the bill for child care. what kind of a life will the baby have... a two bit existence with no pleasures, when it gets older will it ever find out who its father was, will it repeat the cycle and fall into a bottomless void of misery? possibly a bit on teh extreme side, but something to think about nonetheless. although abortion shouldnt be something considered willy-nilly ("oh i got preggers last night, nevermind ill get it flushed in the morning!") but it should always be an option for those which circumstances dictate it being the only practical eventuality.
in conclusion... Big up abortion!


we were somewhere near barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

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