Forums > Social Discussion > South Dakota outlaws abortion

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:BBC news story.
If you're in South Dakota abortians are now all but outlawed.

It's very sad that in this day and age the religious right has made this much head way. The anti-choice groups are trying to provoke a supreme court chalenge, aimed at over turning the Roe vs. Wade ruling which made abortians legal in the first place for Americans. If they succeed then abortions will once again be illegal across all of the united states (correct me if I've got my US legal code wrong).

Quite frankly this is a moral disaster. The rights of women to control their own bodies took a long time to win. It had to be fought for at every stage and now it looks like it's going to be eroded away again. I'm thankful that nothing like this could ever happen in Britain but it's still disheartening to see America heading back to the dark ages. frown


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Skulduggery
Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales
Member Since: 12th Aug 2004
Total posts: 8428
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)

I'm thankful that nothing like this could ever happen in Britain but it's still disheartening to see America heading back to the dark ages. frown



That's a statement you might live to see proved wrong. Why couldn't this happen in Britain?


Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:*inserts scummy "that's too bad because it's really the idiots in South Dakota that don't want abortion for women that deserve to have been aborted in the first place"... Kind of like the "let's teach ID in kansas"

Well, at least we still have a choice of states to live in that allow it. Personally I'm coming close to moving out. Any country that claims to be free but won't let you have rights over your body (drugs, abortion) while alcohol and tobacco and anti-depressant-toting pharmacutecal companies have lobbists all over congress, why this whole country is going to [censored].


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:From http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/rights_aborti...zkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
Written by:


Proposed amendments to the law to create exceptions to specifically protect the health of the mother, or in cases of rape or incest, were voted down.



frown frown frown



I can't believe anywhere in the world could regress to this once getting out of it. Backstreet abortions and abandoned babies here we come.



I think it's disgusting that people feel they have the moral right to assert that sort of influence over prosective parents. Whether you look down on it or not, people have unwanted pregnancies. By passing a law, that's not going to change anything.



Disgusting, disgusting, disgusting.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:You do have the law wrong (it's a common law issue, not a code issue).. If Roe v. Wade were overturned, states would once again have the right to determine their own policy on abortion. In other words, it would be up to the voters of each state.

For example, where I live, Abortion is guranteed as a right in the state constitution. Nothing would change even if Roe v. Wade were overturned.

Democratically, the people of South Dakota don't want abortions in their state. The question is whether the court should let the people's democratic decision stand.

What moral standard are you using to declare a democratic decision to be a moral disaster?


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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Because an immoral majority decision is still immoral.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:And an ignorant majority isn't a reason to penalise an unlucky minority, a judgement you can make from an objective standpoint.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:What minority gets to decide what is moral, then?

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:We all make our own decisions, don't we? Obviously everyone has different beliefs. I believe that it is wrong to take the option of termination away from women who are impregnated by rape, for example, or in cases where the health of the mother is threatened by the pregnancy. She can get pregnant again, she can't get born again. I also happen to be totally pro-choice, but I imagine even if I wasn't I would still wish for the former options to be available to everyone. I wonder if the voters taking that option away actually considered what they would do if it was them or the woman in their life who had been raped, or was probably not going to survive childbirth (and neither, quite probably because we're talking about predictable complications, would the child). I doubt they did, if they still reached that verdict.



It's just a really backward, outdated view in my opinion, and regardless of whether it has been democratically voted for or not, I can still find it morally abhorrent.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:Last I heard, they did make an exception for the life of the mother. They probably didn't put in a rape exception because they thought that it would be unfair to execute a child for the crime of the father.

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Even if you believe it is "executing a child" then that's still making a judgement that the child is worth more than the mother. If you were raped and got pregnant, would you want the child?

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Just for the sake of argument, or for anyone who's curious, here are some tales of pro-lifers' choices when faced with an unwanted pregnancy:

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml
br>


Some things there raise some important issues in this debate. For example the several girls who picketed abortion clinics they used AFTER using them, out of social expectations that they did. If people feel they have to give one answer publicly but use the service themselves, clearly a "democratic" vote isn't going to be representative of the reality.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:Written by: spiralx

Even if you believe it is "executing a child" then that's still making a judgement that the child is worth more than the mother. If you were raped and got pregnant, would you want the child?


no it's saying that the child's life is at least worth as much as the mother
if you'll call me pro-life i won't call you anti-life-- prochoice v antichoice
personally i think it ammoral to kill a child because the mother decided to have sex and is unwilling to accept the consequences, if not raise the child at least birth him or her so that he or she can be adopted
rape and such is a different issue, but good for SD


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted:Time to throw in a Bill Hicks quote...

"Of course the answer would be to leave about a dozen unwanted babies on the steps of the supreme court. You said we had to have these babies, YOU censored RAISE THEM!"


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:the answer might be more complete sex ed

rather than abortions...think about what you really took away from that class


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: faithinfire

rape and such is a different issue, but good for SD


Erm, do you want to explain to me how it's a different issue, when SD has banned abortion in even these special cases?


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: faithinfire

the answer might be more complete sex ed
rather than abortions...think about what you really took away from that class


I really don't believe there is anything you can say in school which is going to stop teenagers having sex. I came away from sex ed knowing a lot, pretty much everything I could get without doing it myself.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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DoktorSkell
DoktorSkell

addict
Location: Van Diemans Land
Member Since: 11th Jan 2005
Total posts: 475
Posted:And the government claims to be in the service of the citizens.

BULL-[censored] America is slowly becoming a dictatorship


Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight

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Zauberdachs
Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh
Member Since: 28th Jul 2004
Total posts: 220
Posted:I think it is possible to disapprove and discourage abortions but at the same time admit that there are circumstances where they are for the best.



Ultimately I think this is a decision for the individual and not for the government.



Also the hypocracy of some of the people in that article by Kevlar Soul! eek frown


The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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NOn
activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac
Member Since: 23rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1643
Posted:it's something that i think lies entirely with the individual involved and their own personal morals, if the woman is so anti-choice that her own morals won't allow her to do it, then she won't. oh, sex education can be improved, definately, it always can! (on the radio today, a 13 year old girl has given birth, and teen pregnancy rates are soaring....)

but I also think that governments should allow abortion as a legal option, if only for safety's sake. In the case of an unwanted pregnancy, by rape, accident or otherwise, you have to consider the emotional state of the woman and the fact that she will most probably stop at nothing to have an abortion, somehow, even if it is not legal. Like the hundreds of portuguese women who risked their lives and arrest to swim to an offshore clinic, a couple of years back... and there's plenty more examples to be found on the internet about backstreet abortions, home abortions and all sorts of other dodgy attempts, which have killed millions of women around the world. i thought governments have a duty to protect their citizens; a substantial number of women dying in agonizing pain, because they couldn't get safe, legal treatment is not protection. THEY should think about their ethics with respect to the country or state as a whole, and let the individuals deal with their own. if an anti-choice woman has a handy loophole in her ethics for her to have an abortion herself, then it's on her head and no-one elses. IMHO.


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:Irrespective of the morality issue, it is a freedom of choice that has been withdrawn.
There are always going to be circumstances under which an abortion will be wanted, and it will be procured one way or another, surely it's better to have a clean and licenced environment in which to undertake them.

No matter what the circumstance an abortion is a traumatic event even without fears of legality on top of it. While it's all well and good to say "she should have kept her legs closed then..." in a world where sex is done for recreation as well as procreation it's a pretty unhelpful viewpoint.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:Saying that it is an issue of freedom of choice being withdrawn is too simplistic. There are at least three competing interests. The right of voters of South Dakota to choose what sort of laws they will be governed by, the right of people who want to abort their children to be able to choose to do so, and the rights of children who might be aborted.

A theif may complain that we have, by our laws, withdrawn his freedom to choose to steal. To that, we generally say that society has a right to choose to outlaw his behavior if the do not like it.

What I find most funny is DoktorSkell's post which seems to suggest that this is evidence of the government not being in the service of the citizens, and instead becoming a dictatorship. Ignoring any issue of morality, this is a clear case of the citizens expressing their desire to have a particular behavior outlawed. For the government NOT to respond would be a disservice to the citizens. If Bush, for example, were to say "I don't care that you voted for it, I'm going to ignore your votes and keep abortion legal," that would be a clear act of dictatorship overruling democracy.

Are we willing to give a dictator (or some other minority of rulers) the job of deciding what is moral, and then let him choose what laws to make? Or will we instead favor democracy, and let a majority decide what laws the government should have?

Humanism suggests that morality should be based on the needs of society. Democracy suggests that the needs of society are best measured by what the people want, and that the government should be subject to the people. If the people have democratically decided that they do not want abortions in their state, what reason do we have to deny them their choice?


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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1848
Posted:
Being completely ignorant of how laws work (aside from if it's illegal you're not allowed to do it and if it's legal you are) If a woman who was a citizen of south dakota wanted/needed an abortion, could she go to a state where it was legal and have it done without consequences on her return home? (personally i don't see that there should be consequences, but just to claify)

For the record, i'm very much pro-choice, but i can also see the value in the pro-democracy argument happening here.


"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Know what needs to happen?

OB/GYN's need to go on strike in S. Dakota.

They need to say "We'll deliver babies and see medical emergencies, but we're closing our clinics and there will be no elective operations until this is done."

It's been done before and it's moved mountains.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:i find this just sick. i'm firmly pro-choice, but irrespective of that, i can't understand at all how they could entirely eliminate abortions even for the sake of the health of the mother or in cases of rape or incest?

i can't even begin to comment on this....


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:This is why I'm glad I live in Oregon.........

We can even kill ourselves here *thumbs up*


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Wrong move...

The right to decide about their own body, whether to carry a child or not should be left to the mothers. What about pregnancies deriving from rape? There are a few good reasons for a mother not to carry her child and IMHO it should be hers!

Do SD-citizens get into legal issues, if they perform an abortion outside South Dakota?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

Know what needs to happen?

OB/GYN's need to go on strike in S. Dakota.

They need to say "We'll deliver babies and see medical emergencies, but we're closing our clinics and there will be no elective operations until this is done."

It's been done before and it's moved mountains.



Really? How? When? Why?


- - - No sarcasm/disbelief, I'm just curious


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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Zauberdachs
Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh
Member Since: 28th Jul 2004
Total posts: 220
Posted:Written by: Patriarch917

The right of voters of South Dakota to choose what sort of laws they will be governed by

If Bush, for example, were to say "I don't care that you voted for it, I'm going to ignore your votes and keep abortion legal," that would be a clear act of dictatorship overruling democracy.




You are quite right.


The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:They did make an exception for the life of the mother.

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
Total posts: 674
Posted:Written by: faithinfire

Written by: spiralx

i think it ammoral to kill a child because the mother decided to have sex and is unwilling to accept the consequences, if not raise the child at least birth him or her so that he or she can be adopted
rape and such is a different issue, but good for SD



I wonder what your oppinion is in pregnancies resulting DESPITE taking precautions against it. For instance, someone who is on the pill and yet get's pregnant anyway (this DOES happen unfortunately) or failures of birth control methods? When they have taken precautions and still get pregnant, is this a consequence that they should just accept? Just wondering..


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