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Forums > Social Discussion > South Dakota outlaws abortion

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:BBC news story.
If you're in South Dakota abortians are now all but outlawed.

It's very sad that in this day and age the religious right has made this much head way. The anti-choice groups are trying to provoke a supreme court chalenge, aimed at over turning the Roe vs. Wade ruling which made abortians legal in the first place for Americans. If they succeed then abortions will once again be illegal across all of the united states (correct me if I've got my US legal code wrong).

Quite frankly this is a moral disaster. The rights of women to control their own bodies took a long time to win. It had to be fought for at every stage and now it looks like it's going to be eroded away again. I'm thankful that nothing like this could ever happen in Britain but it's still disheartening to see America heading back to the dark ages. frown


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:Do you really know the facts of abortion? I think if you did, you really would not "big it up". In fact, what you've said has made me feel quite, quite sad.

20 days after conception the brain has already differentiated into forebrain, midbrain and hindbrain and the spinal cord has started to grow.

4 weeks after conception, pain receptors appear around the mouth. From 6 weeks old, the unborn baby's cortex begins to develop and is fully developed by 18 weeks. The cortex is the centre of pain consciousness.

at 20 weeks, the unborn child has fully functioning pain receptors, spinal cord, nerve tracts, thalamus and cortex. All the anatomical structures needed for transmission of pain.

An unborn child that is aborted will suffer tremendous pain.

D&E abortions which can be as late as 24 weeks involve dismembering an unborn child with sharp metal forceps. Instillation methods of abortion involve the replacement of up to one cup of amniotic fluid with a concentrated salt solution, which the unborn child inhales and it burns his/her skin. The child lives in this condition for up to an hour. In neither of those cases are the unborn children anaesthetised.

EDITED_BY: jo_rhymes (1142274995)


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:I think you're missing the point.

afghan_bingo doesn't care much as to what state the child is in when it's in the womb. s/he cares about the quality of it's life, which IMO is a more sensible option. Are you going to quibble about a few days of development when the next 20 years of it's life are going to suck? Not only it's life, but the mother's as well?


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:And as I have repeatedly said, abortion needs to be carried out as early as possible.

All these ridiculous hoops that pregnant women have to jump through increases the time that it takes to get an abortion so the foetus becomes more and more formed.

I don't 'big up abortion' either, it is a procedure that in a perfect world wouldn't need to exist. But this isn't a perfect world and we do need to have abortions available when they are neccassary.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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afghan_bingo
afghan_bingo

member
Location: Calgary, Canada
Member Since: 20th Sep 2005
Total posts: 116
Posted:yes i do know about the facts of abortion, i would not express my opinon if i didnt know the facts. i know that some of the procedures may seem macabre, but you come up with a better way of extracting a foetus, you try and anaesthetise it. when it comes down to it i believe these methods are necessary for the well being of the mother and if that means to euthanase a baby, then so be it. physical pain is fleeting, emotional pain can last forever.
would you rather lose an unborn foetus, which in my view doesnt have a life until its born, or destroy two lives by letting it be born. the mothers and the babys.

up until the 1600's (UK, i believe) it was legal to kill your own kids. ergo, if you bring 'em into this world, you can damn well take 'em out of it!


we were somewhere near barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted: Written by: afghan_bingo


an unborn foetus, which in my view doesnt have a life until its born,


this is rubbish. At week 20, the ears are fully functioning and the child can distinguish his/her mother's voice. If it is born at week 24, there is a high chance the baby will survive in an intenisive care incubator.

of course i dont think that people should keep all unwanted pregnancies. I agree with Jeff, if you do need an abortion, please carry it out withing the first couple of weeks, before the baby has chance to develop.
What would be a miracle, is if people actually used contraception, thought about sex, and took the morning after pill if anything went wrong.


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes


 Written by: afghan_bingo


an unborn foetus, which in my view doesnt have a life until its born,


this is rubbish.



i've highlighted the key point there. it's afghan's opinion as to when life begins. you can't call that rubbish. that's the whole crux of the argument behind whether or not to legalize abortion....when does life begin? last i checked, no one came to a consensus on this. to some people, human organs, even if they are functioning, doesn't constitute "life." honestly, if i were to use your argument, then i could say those weird tumor thingys that have eyes, teeth, hair, etc., are human and have "life" and therefore we shouldn't get rid of them.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:It is rubbish, I've pointed out when the foetus develops brain, heart, etc. It's ALIVE.
Not wanting to sound like Jeff here, but his opinion that baby's arent alive til they're out of the womb is rubbish.


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes



It is rubbish, I've pointed out when the foetus develops brain, heart, etc. It's ALIVE.

Not wanting to sound like Jeff here, but his opinion that baby's arent alive til they're out of the womb is rubbish.



Technically she's right, it is alive.



The point of the opposing arguement is where it should be regarded as a human being.



I've already said that I suspect that there is a gradient and no single point at which the foetus should suddenly be regarded as a human being. Our legal ruling on the subject are rather arbitrary as they are neccassarily absolutes, in Britain the usual limit is around 24 weeks by which time the foetus is quite advanced and bordering on viability if given intensive medical treatment.



I think that education is vital in order to ensure that it doesn't take that long for a woman to descide wheather or not to get an abortion. I suspect that the guilt tactics of the pro-life groups are delaying many womens descisions resulting in terminations at a later stage.

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1142530140)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:It is certainly a human life, jeff.

It is not from another species. It is not a dog or a cat, it's a human.
It is certainly alive, since otherwise we would not have to kill it.
It is not a parasite, since it is of the same species as it's mother.
It is not comparable to a tumor, since it is our offspring.
It is not a part of the mother's body, since it is genetically unique from her.

A fetus is undoubtably a young living human child. The argument is not over whether it is human, whether it is alive, or whether it is a seperate person. These things are objective facts.

The question is whether it is morally wrong to kill it. Some people draw the line at killing any living human child. Some draw the line at a certain age.

Education is vital to dispell the myth that a fetus is somehow not a human life. It is a human life, it's just not one that everyone agrees deserves to stay alive.


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:what are the seven or so scientific "tests" it's more of a checklist, to determine if something has life...

potential to grow
carbon
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:Are you thinking of: Movement, Respiration, Sensitivity, Growth, Reproduction, Excretion and Feeding?

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917



It is not a part of the mother's body, since it is genetically unique from her.

The argument is not over whether it is human, whether it is alive, or whether it is a seperate person. These things are objective facts.

The question is whether it is morally wrong to kill it. Some people draw the line at killing any living human child. Some draw the line at a certain age.



Just speaking to these threepoints:

Its not part of the mother's body? umm

What are objective facts?

Isn't it the question of whether the being is sentient/concious or not?

and @ faithinfire: there is nothing that states that life must be carbon based. Ours is, but couldn't it be different somewhere else?


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted: Written by: Patriarch

It is certainly a human life, jeff.



It is not from another species. It is not a dog or a cat, it's a human.

It is certainly alive, since otherwise we would not have to kill it.

It is not a parasite, since it is of the same species as it's mother.

It is not comparable to a tumor, since it is our offspring.

It is not a part of the mother's body, since it is genetically unique from her.



A fetus is undoubtably a young living human child. The argument is not over whether it is human, whether it is alive, or whether it is a seperate person. These things are objective facts.



The question is whether it is morally wrong to kill it. Some people draw the line at killing any living human child. Some draw the line at a certain age.



Education is vital to dispell the myth that a fetus is somehow not a human life. It is a human life, it's just not one that everyone agrees deserves to stay alive.





Once again, opinion stated as fact. If I thought you were serious about rational debate, I'd recommend taking a debating class rolleyes

EDITED_BY: spiralx (1142468389)


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I think Patriarchs making a good point- a human fetus is obviously both human and alive; the rightness of abortion rests on whether it's OK to kill a human fetus, not on avoiding the issue by claiming that it's not human, or not alive.

On the issue of vegetarianism I've often put forward the opinion that the true facts of meat production should be available to school children in their lessons- my feelings are that many of them would cease to eat meat if this were the case, and, if they continued to be happy to eat meat, then so be it, at least they knew the full facts and made a choice on the basis of them.

I don't think that most people are actually aware of what an abortion actually involves- I certainly didn't prior to reading this thread and going off to do some research.

Prior to that I assumed that most of those who protested against abortion where religious fundamentalist nutters- I really couldn't see what their problem was.

Having seen what happens in abortions, I'm not going to say abortion is wrong, but I can now see why some protesters would find it repugnant (and not for religious reasons).

And I still feel that, on the other side, the pain and distress caused both to the mother, and the unwanted child, do make a compelling case for abortion, i'm just more inclined to say it's justifed in some circumstances and that, in others, it's problematic.

If abortion is considered OK, then maybe it would be a good idea foir the reality of it taught in our education system, at an early age- the full facts of what it takes to eliminate a developed fetus from the human body.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:I didn't say the foetus wasn't a human life,



I said it wan't a human being.



Please read the post before throwing up a strawman. rolleyes



My school taught the children about abortion and everything involved. I think that all schools should do the same.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted: Written by: fireNice


 Written by: Patriarch917



It is not a part of the mother's body, since it is genetically unique from her.





Just speaking to these threepoints:

Its not part of the mother's body? umm

What are objective facts?




Of course it's not part of the mother's body. It's 50% mother and 50% father. rolleyes


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


I didn't say the foetus wasn't a human life,

I said it wan't a human being.

Please read the post before throwing up a strawman. rolleyes




 Written by: jeff(fake)



The point of the opposing arguement is where it should be regarded as a human life.

I've already said that I suspect that there is a gradient and no single point at which the foetus should suddenly be regarded as a human being



You used both jeff, even if it was on accident. Please read your own post before accusing people of throwing up straw men. smile


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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:It was quite obvious what the spirit of my arguement was.



I made a typo and wrote life instead of being, but in the rest of the post I made it very clear what I meant. Jumping on a single word and making up a strawman out of it when it is not a way to advance an arguement.



I've change my original post to what I intended, leaving the subsequent reply baseless.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes


Are you thinking of: Movement, Respiration, Sensitivity, Growth, Reproduction, Excretion and Feeding?



I had these, they are similar
Carbon
Has wall or membrane
Capable of homeostasis
Needs water
Gets energy from environment
Metabolic processes
Growth
Adaptation to environment
Just my curiousity is all

Anyways are we arguing about its conciousness, ability to feel pain?
We couldnt be arguing its validity to become a person. It hasnt had a chance yet. There are people out there who have had a chance and they make the world worse. Lack of experience should not be held against the unborn. Who their parents are shouldnt be a factor either.
Quality of life should be considered for the mother and the child
Quality of environment is adaptable and shouldnt be a factor
Stop spending so much money on abortion clinics and more on adoptions ones. The surrogate things was an interesting suggestion if it was viable ( I dont know if it is or not)
In life there is no such thing as a coincidence, a pregnancy doesnt just happen, the soul was brought here for some reason yet to be seen


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:In life there's plenty of coincidence.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:i can't believe that

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:spending more money on adoption clinics isn't going to change anything. there are far too many couples who refuse to have a child that is "not their own [biologically]." sad but true. plus everyone wants white healthy babies, again sad but true. if a child is born with a defect, addicted to drugs, with AIDS, biracial, any race other than caucasion....their chances of getting adopted decrease exponentially. and then we just end up with children in the foster care system, which sucks, and most of the time they get screwed up, live on the streets, get pregnant early, and then the cycle repeats. (i'm not even arguing the whole forcing a woman to have her body go through things she doesn't want it to). it's a nice idea in theory, but just not realistic.

and just cause you can't believe there are coincidences doesn't mean there aren't any


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:no it just means that coincidences don't exist in my reality...
truly believe there are reasons even if i don't understand
doesn't mean you have to believe it


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:i'm not arguing that they aren't part of your reality. i accept that. i was just saying in general our belief systems aren't "fact." that goes for mine, yours, everyone who has posted in this thread. just because we don't believe in something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:do you mind posting that in the ID V Evo forum

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:feel free to post it yourself. i haven't ventured into that thread and don't plan to. too many debates makes pouncey's head hurt ubblol

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:ubblol

i made that mistake, now my head huts smile


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:along similar lines...what about the woman who's just been denied the right to continue with ivf because she and her partner broke up.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2250799.stm
br>


his line was the he withdrew consent because they split up and he will be legally the father and therefore responsable for them, which seems fair enough to me.



the point i want opinions on is this...i just can't decide what i think about it. Natalie Evans said in one interview that she was being discriminated against as an unfertile woman, beause if she had been able to concieve naturally then she couldn't have been forced to abort the pregnancy just because they had split up.



do you think that they should be able to kill the foetuses because they physically cancan? or do you think that once ivf is started it should be treated as a pregnacy, and that neither party should be allowed to withdraw consent?



on the other hand, are they at least stopping another unwanted baby coming in to the world, but is it morally right to continue with IVF against the future father's wished....without his consent? what do you think?


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


i can't believe that


And therein lies the difference between us wink


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted: Written by: Tao Star

on the other hand, are they at least stopping another unwanted baby coming in to the world, but is it morally right to continue with IVF against the future father's wished....without his consent? what do you think?


It is a tricky one, but I think the right decision was made. Having a baby is a monumental decision; I think it should always be done with the consent of both sides. It's true that is she could conceive naturally she would be able to have the baby... but I don't really think that's great.

Plus when you take into account that the father can almost certainly be hit by the CSA for child support whether he wanted the baby or not (and it's not an accident) leads me to think this is the right choice.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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