After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
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the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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Written by: Lurch
An armed society is a polite society.
Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"
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Written by:
Nothing defines the central role of police in society better than its monopoly over the unquestionable use of force. Aggressiveness, toughness, relentlessness, and (one might say) a cult of violence all tend to permeate the adrenaline-soaked nature of police work. A couple of horrific examples where the monopoly on force was abused would include the Abner Louima case in 1997, where the aggressive tactics of New York City's Street Crimes Unit (SCU) involved rectal damage on a suspect with a toilet plunger. Over a two year period, the SCU unit processed 45,000 people with their get-tough methods. Another example would be the Amadou Diallo case in 1999, where an immigrant who fit the profile of a serial rapist was shot 41 times after reaching for his wallet. Extreme examples such as this are called illegal use of force, where criminal and civil liability issues arise.
About two million people a year are subjected to police force if we include handcuffing along with physical touching and verbal threats. Weaponless tactics are the most common use of force, and it occurs most frequently when alcohol, drugs, or mental illness is involved on behalf of the suspect. A small percentage of officers appear to be over-represented among the more extreme incidents of force. It makes sense to refer to excessive force as what some individual officers do and excessive use of force as what is practiced on a department-wide basis.
In an average year, 600 suspects are shot and killed by police, while another 1,200 are shot and wounded, and 1,800 are shot at and missed. Black property offenders are twice as likely as any other group to be shot at by police, and another interesting statistic is the growing percentage of cases (over 10%) that involve suicide by cop, where a note is usually found saying "Sorry to get you involved. I just needed to die."
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
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Written by: Sethis
I know I feel very intimidated by police carrying either pistols or automatic rifles...
As soon as they pick up asault rifles though, then they become these impassive killing machines that you're afraid to go near or look at.
Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"
Written by: Lurch
There is absoluetly nothing wrong with firearms in modern society. In fact I'm willing to guess if you're in the states there are a whole lot more armed people than you would imagine walking around. *legally* armed is the key. An armed society is a polite society.
Written by: FireTom
To repeat it: Another example would be the Amadou Diallo case in 1999, where an immigrant who fit the profile of a serial rapist was shot 41 times after reaching for his wallet.
41 times!!!!! To spell it out for you: fourty-one bullets from 4 officers! We're talking about guns, not MP's or assault rifles!
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The song has quickly won the ire of New York's police chief, its mayor and the head of the state chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police, who publicly labeled Springsteen a "[censored] dirtbag." The Patrolmen's Benevolent Association has called for a boycott of Springsteen albums and concerts.
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Lena gets her son ready for school
She says "on these streets, Charles
You've got to understand the rules
If an officer stops you
Promise you'll always be polite,
that you'll never ever run away
Promise Mama you'll keep your hands in sight"
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
Written by: Dom
I notice that these are rather paranoid perceptions that are influencing your opinions.
Written by: Lurch
An armed society is a polite society.
Written by: Lurch
A simple windshield of a car just defeated your tazer and your rubber bullets.
Written by: FireTom
This is 4 officers emptying their magazines into the body of a SINGLE man
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
Written by: ducky2108
As for reaching for something, what would have been the effect of shooting someone in the shoulder with one bullet on their capability to hold a firearm. I think it'd probably slow them down somewhat. This could be seen as the minimum force needed to incapaitate someone. It's like if they're running away. Do you a) shoot them in the leg, b) shot them in the leg and shoulder, c)shoot them in the torso (bigger area) to hit, so easier.
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However, some may still question why it is necesarry to put 41 bullets in someone to incapacitate someone. That is technically known as killing someone.
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
Written by: Sethis
Jean Charles Menezes lived in a flat that was under surveillance. He was followed by officers that had been watching the flat.
Original Police Version: He was wearing a bulky jacket and carrying a backpack. He jumped the barriers to the tube and ran towards a train. Police officers ordered him to halt, but he did not comply. He reached the train, where he was shot dead.
Leaked documents (confirmed by CCTV and eyewitness accounts) Version: He was wearing a light denim jacket. He did not jump the turnstile, he used a travel pass to go through normally. He picked up a free copy of a newspaper. He only started running when his train pulled up to the platform. He sat down on the train. He was shot 8 times. 7 times in the head, once in the shoulder, and the other three bullets missed. A plain clothes police officer had just emptied the clip of his handgun into Menezes' head. The officers did not shout a warning, or tell him to stop.
The public enquiry continues.
This man could NOT have been carrying a bomb. He did NOT commit any criminal acts. He did NOT refuse an order from the police. He WAS shot 7 times in the head.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
"Moo," said the happy cow.
Written by: TheBovrilMonkey
If the police are pointing their guns at someone, then they think he's armed. If he then suddenly goes to pull something from a pocket, how do they know if it's going to be his wallet or a pistol? Waiting until it's pulled out and being waved at them's too late to make the call - they could be dead before have a chance to stop him firing.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by: TheBovrilMonkey
I think that it's a little misleading to ask why 41 bullets was needed - each policeman had to choose to fire by himself, without looking to see what the others were doing. A hesitation could have meant being shot, so they make up their own mind.
As an answer to why they each shot 10 times, it's not unheard of for people to be shot 5 or 6 times and still be able to shoot back.
If the police are pointing their guns at someone, then they think he's armed. If he then suddenly goes to pull something from a pocket, how do they know if it's going to be his wallet or a pistol? Waiting until it's pulled out and being waved at them's too late to make the call - they could be dead before have a chance to stop him firing.
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
Written by: Lurch
An armed society is a polite society.
Written by: Gnarly Cranium
I guess our mentality is some kind of holdover from the Wild West? Hell if I know. It's always been like this, we're used to it. And I guess if pretty much the entire populace is armed, people figure the police should be even with them? It's not a logic that makes a ton of sense to me. I mean what is this, some kind of police vs civilians Cold War mentality?
I personally find it deeply disturbing. Say I have a taillight on my car out, like a couple weeks ago. I get pulled over. The cop comes up to me to ask for my license and registration. Sure, I might be a dangerous nutcase or something-- but how the hell does that justify the fact that this guy next to my car is carrying a -lethal- weapon ready for use? The sole function of that gun is to kill people-- that's specifically what they're designed for. Since when does 'serve and protect' also mean 'and maybe KILL YOU' ? There's no justification for police to carry lethal weapons. They are civilians, and they're here to help, not to hurt anybody. It's not like they even -want- to use them. It makes absolutely no sense. I -like- the police, being able to dial 911 when you catch someone breaking into your house is a beautiful thing-- but the guns still make me cringe.
I think it was last year at New Years, I remember seeing the footage of the different celebrations going on in different cities... in Vegas they had put up 20 foot chain link fence barricades across many streets, erected a 30 foot guard tower in the middle of a main square, and there were military helicopters circling overhead. In my own state, the biggest city has a population of about 1 million-- even there, they had teams of police in riot gear, with armored trucks, fully outfitted with things like AK-47s. They also bring that stuff out whenever there is a protest, or on various other days of the year. And then they make sure to send out reporters to get as many clips as possible of passersby on the street saying things like "Oh it all makes me feel so much safer!" ....Which would be worse, I wonder-- if they were -paying- them to say it, or if the American populace is really so gullible and paranoid that so many of them actually would -mean- it?
Okay, ostensibly the purpose of all these guns is mainly psychological-- but even so, what the hell possible psychological good does it do anybody to create a situation where you have large crowds of unruly people mixing with groups of men outfitted for mass slaughter? ...How does it -help-, to make the general populace -afraid- of the very force that's supposed to be their protection? Are they less 'approachable' you ask-- how the everloving crap could they NOT be? It exacerbates the criminal element's vile hatred and anger at the mere -idea- of police... just the -sight- of them, knowing they're carrying guns, is enough to incite a twinge of some kind in just about anyone. It's a deeply rooted social stigma now, one we've grown up with for hundreds of years, it's even -intended- to have that effect, and even the peaceniks have to agree that even if we -did- take the guns away from the police, just about every criminal in the country would promptly go nuts in delight.
If you guys in the UK -do- successfully arm your police with guns... you probably -won't- be able to go back. If one of these days here in the US, the mix does go bad, and the police end up shooting a bunch of harmless students or something like they did back in the 60s, there will be an uproar-- which could easily result in -more- riots, and who knows where it might escalate from there. That 'special relationship' is important, else things degenerate into all-out war someday.
The more I hear about how things are going across the pond, the more it worries me. Please, please, -please- you guys, don't let the paranoia and the propaganda get to you, don't end up any more like the US than you already have! Europe is supposed to be smarter than all this!
"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X
Written by: TheBovrilMonkey
I've just read the linked article on Amadou Diallo.
He fit the description of a serial rapist.
He ran away when the police shouted at him to stop and show his hands.
He reached for something in his pocket while knowing full well that the police were there.
I'm not saying that those details make everything ok, but they go a long way to explaining why the police opened fire.
Also, he was only hit by 19 bullets. As I mentioned before, the police are trained to keep firing until the threat is removed. As far as we know, he could have still been standing after being hit 18 times. Unlikely perhaps, but not impossible.
I'm fairly worried about the officers' accuracy though - 41 shots fired and 19 hits doesn't bode well for anyone standing nearby.
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Lurch: You seem to be mostly of the opinion that: "If you with the police, then don't be suprised to get your ass capped." My issue with this is that 1. Police make mistakes just like everyone else. When they have batons, this is police brutality. When they have guns, this is murder. 2. What is the ethical justification for shooting someone?
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With all respect Lurch, I do know a little about fire arms. I know that the vast majority of armed american civilians have little training in their use, and commonly keep them in their bedside drawer. I think the last statistics I saw was that you were 18 times more likely to cause the death of a member of your family than you were to shoot an intruder.
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I accept that police not being armed will result in cases where officers are shot- this is unavoidable.
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The police should err on the side of civilian safety when it is a choice between civilian safety and their own saftey. As an officer it is their duty to acept risk in order to protect the population.
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One Vietnam veteran, an old retired Colnel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is truth. Remember the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are no inclined to hurt one another
Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred in any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.
Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.
I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.
"Then there are the wolves," the old veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.
"Then there are the sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." Or as a sign in one California law enforcement agency put it, "We intimidate those who intimidate others."
If you have no capacity for violence, then you are a healthy productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you are defined an aggressive sociopath - a wolf. But if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia (violence) and walk out unscathed.
[...]
Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms, and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are dozens of times more likely to be killed, and thousands of times more likely to be seriously injured, by school violence than by school fires, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard, so they choose the path of denial.
The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot, and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdof who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, or at least not in a representative democracy or republic such as ours.
Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdogs cash in his fangs, spraypaint himself white, and go, "Baa."
Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperatly to hide behind one lonely sheepdog. As Kipling said in his poem about "Tommy" the british soldier:
Written by:
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, they officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Loot at what happened after September 11, 2001, when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?
Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that the sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimiter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righetous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.
Here is how the sheep and the sheepdogs think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference."
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