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Forums > Social Discussion > personal preference against 'newbie advice'

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:so. i could have posted this in the 'doing a durbs thread, but its a significantly different opinion, i think, and thats kind of the point of the new thread anyway.



i LIKE double postings of threads.

i like that a new thread revitalises interest in something. and i think its rude to just tell people to do a search and not give them the help that goes with that.

bringing up a topic again(going back to an old one) means (usually) one or two posts will get made. bringing up a repeat topic means a whole different group of people get to talk about it. just cause we have one bakery in a town of 30,000 doesn't mean we automatically redirect everyone who wants a new bakery to that one, does it. different bakery, different style of cake.



in 'moves' i can see the point of linking to other threads. but i HATE seeing people say 'don't talk about this here. your opinion can't be nearly as good as the ones already posted over here' (not what it says, buit how it reads to many people)



why not just link, offer freindly advice, and let the people get on with posting or reading as they wish rather than making someone who is probably a bit nervous about the forum feel really, really small?



[/rant]



(small edit on advice of the lovely firepoise)

biggrin (this smiley automatically means i am a nice person and therefore should not receive any vitriolic replies)

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1139268969)


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

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Posted:ubblol

But the threads I bumped (go look at them if you want, they're "Troupes and their names" and "Any other Magic players?" both in chat) were only 1 or 2 pages long. I asked on 3 seperate occasions for people to help me come up with some interesting names, and no-one did. At all. Maybe there aren't that many Magic players on here, so maybe that's why there weren't many responses to that thread, but I was really hoping for some help with names on the other one. frown


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Skulduggery
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales

Total posts: 8428
Posted:I guess it depends on what threads you bump up. Pricklyleaf bumped one on ballon modelling and got some nice answers.

Maybe asking people to think up names for your troupe just didn't catch them at a creative moment although I remember there being quite a lot of new replies put into the thread.......... Thats if my memory serves me right (something its apt not to do all the time. ubblol )


Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:Are there other "extra" things that you get to do with higher post counts? Where would I go to find out?

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nonenonenone
SILVER Member since Jan 2006

nonenonenone

member
Location: none, United Kingdom

Total posts: 129
Posted:my personal problem with the whole searching thing isnt not being able to find a thread on what i search, its being able to find the information in the thread. its all very well telling people that things have been discussed before, and great, you search and find a thread that contains the right stuff, only its 64 pages long (or something massive lke that) and in those 64 pages, you gotta find what you were after. ok so if its in the title of the thread its likely to be near the begining but who knows really! you dont wanna ask at the end of the thread incase it has been said before, but reading through 64 pages to find a small amount of information that could be anywhere... where do you draw the line?!
see where im coming from here? umm im not even sure im making sense to myself now! ubblol


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Written by: Patriarch917

Are there other "extra" things that you get to do with higher post counts? Where would I go to find out?



As far as I know, it's just being able to rate threads and change your member status.
You might need a certain number of posts before you get a gallery too, I'll have a dig around and see what I can find.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:Written by: _Vikki_

my personal problem with the whole searching thing isnt not being able to find a thread on what i search, its being able to find the information in the thread. its all very well telling people that things have been discussed before, and great, you search and find a thread that contains the right stuff, only its 64 pages long (or something massive lke that) and in those 64 pages, you gotta find what you were after. ok so if its in the title of the thread its likely to be near the begining but who knows really! you dont wanna ask at the end of the thread incase it has been said before, but reading through 64 pages to find a small amount of information that could be anywhere... where do you draw the line?!
see where im coming from here? umm im not even sure im making sense to myself now! ubblol



Aha - this might be one of the reasons that new threads are started - in large threads, the useful stuff can't be found.

If someone was to say put together a search faq wink ubblol

Maybe it could include the useful ctrl-f function for searching text within a web page ubbidea

It might be more than just telling people to do a search, and more about how to get the info out of the existing threads....


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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York, USA

Total posts: 3354
Posted:Written by: _Vikki_


my personal problem with the whole searching thing isnt not being able to find a thread on what i search, its being able to find the information in the thread. its all very well telling people that things have been discussed before, and great, you search and find a thread that contains the right stuff, only its 64 pages long (or something massive lke that) and in those 64 pages, you gotta find what you were after. ok so if its in the title of the thread its likely to be near the begining but who knows really! you dont wanna ask at the end of the thread incase it has been said before, but reading through 64 pages to find a small amount of information that could be anywhere... where do you draw the line?!

see where im coming from here? umm im not even sure im making sense to myself now! ubblol





at the same time though, if we're coming down on people for being lazy and not linking to useful threads, shouldn't some of the responsibility of the person looking for the information be to find what they think is useful? a 64 page thread may be intimidating, but there's always the 'show all' function, which makes browsing large threads much easier.



offtopic

I think this speaks to the turn our society has taken where people are used to having things on demand, right at the instant they want the data, as opposed to taking the time and going through and there is a distinct lack of patience.

/rant



I find going back to old threads are way more helpful simply because, they express views and potentially answer questions you might not have thought of otherwise


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newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali, Australia

Total posts: 4030
Posted:when I was a newbie, which isn't so long ago, I found it helpful to be told about searches and even more useful to be told HOW to do one cos it's not that clear ( the coloured Google button is a bit of a red herring.) Now when I see *taking stuff on planes* or similar I go in and use it as a way to say hi AND give a bit of a search lesson. I don;t think I've been rude.... not that time anyway.
anyway, I'm just reading this cos Bluecat posted it and I'm following him around...


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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: bluecat

yes, i know. but

'go and search, you fool' makes us look bad. can't you see that? hug



Several people have said to me they gave up posting here due to a hostile response, which I couldn't believe. When I found their threads (if they hadn't been deleted) they were either taken for duplicates when they weren't, or they just contained "do a durbs" style replies. It's a shame, many newbies see rigidly enforced rules as an unnecessary curb on their desire to join the community and make themselves known by asking questions and posting threads they feel will spark discussion.

I think if there are no duplicate threads, we're going to run out of meaningful things to discuss.


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Posted:Well, I've noticed the hostile responses that newbies get. frown



Quite often when an old thread gets bumped, I have the urge to read everything that's been posted. If its the same ol' shite I read the first time around... I go FRAT (censored reading all of that) and just move on. So, I don't post in the thread offering what little input I might give.



Reckon I'm not the only person who doesn't feel like adding to a thread that might have been started years before, even if the mods suggest we should to save bandwidth.



Sometimes when you want fresh flowers, you have to start from seed. Not just replant the old ones.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by:

at the same time though, if we're coming down on people for being lazy and not linking to useful threads, shouldn't some of the responsibility of the person looking for the information be to find what they think is useful? a 64 page thread may be intimidating, but there's always the 'show all' function, which makes browsing large threads much easier.




'show all' and use of ctrl F (pressing 'control and 'F') brings up a text search box) is very useful.

Personally though, I prefer looking through several medium length threads to one 64-page one.

It's not laziness, cos you still have to do an intelligent search.

Ideally, if the resulting threads have been given sensible titles, you can then look through the ones that look most relevant.

------------------------

Concerning people who've stopped posting because they have taken offense or felt pushed away by some of the replies-

something I've become increasingly aware of lately with HOP, is that a lot of the people here are tending to assume that everyone thinks and feels as they themselves do- so, as far as they're concerned, if a comment doesn't offend them, they see it as being an inoffensive comment.

In reality, people ways of thinking and feeling are highly varied- on HOP we have people with a huge range of communicating styles ranging from mildly eccentric to technically 'dysfunctional'- we have asperegics/people from different cultures/people whose first language is not English etc.

To me, reason to think that some posts are possibly offensive, is that some people say they are offended by them.

To me, looking at said posts and exclaiming , 'well, they're not offensive- anyone who says so is over-sensitive' is not the best approach.

If a high number of people complain that they're been offended by being told to do a search, then, IMO, its time to start taking it on board.

(as an aside, I'll point out that I've even seen, in the past, 'Do a durbs' with no explanation of what a 'durbs actually is- the fact that someone could not anticipate that a newbie is the last person who's going to know what the term means, is a clear example of what I'm talking about above).

There's a fair amount of clique-ishness, 'in-terms', exlusiveness and bonded little groups on HOP and it's the nature of cliques, that those in them are generally sincerely unaware of the fact that they are cliques and that they tend to be exclusive.

If this problem was caused deliberatly by people who just wanted to be rude, it wouldn't actually be much of a problem, as it could be dealt with- the problem lies in that fact that it's unintentional and that the people perpetuating it are the very ones who aren't aware of it.

As possible ways of dealing with it, I'd suggest-

1. making a big effort to be aware that people do not think or feel in the same way as you

2. if someone indicates that they find something you say to be offensive, rather than focusing purely on the reasons why what you said wasn't actually offensive; reflect on the fact that, to one who thinks/feels differently to you, what you said could well be offensive

Bringing this on topic- would it not be a good idea to scrap the phrase 'do a search' and to instead, as several have suggested, do the search yourself and post the result?

i.e. 'I've done a search and it's found this....'- which indicates to a newbie the value of searching.

Lastly, as i mentioned before, for regulars, maintaining a well-organised list of 'bookmarks' ('favourites) is not only useful to yourself for finding threads of interests, but enables you to pass on 'search' results without having to bother searching for them.


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:please... wink wink

do a search wink wink



!! - please note the winks as well as the links - !!



on topic, i think i might actually agree with rob here.



if the thread ratings were used more, then the problems caused by having a large number of threads with similar names would be removed.





cole. x


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York, USA

Total posts: 3354
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave




Personally though, I prefer looking through several medium length threads to one 64-page one.

......



Bringing this on topic- would it not be a good idea to scrap the phrase 'do a search' and to instead, as several have suggested, do the search yourself and post the result?







I completely agree with you on the thread length, but if the info's in the large thread, so be it



With regards to scrapping 'do a search', were we to lose that phrase, then as the community gets larger and larger, and the older members stop being as active, for whatever reason, then the newer people at that time would ask questions, and the existing active board members would not necessarily know how to help them out.



offtopic

Out of curiosity, who still has that initial pm from Malcolm and/or read(s) it?



Perhaps because people don't read it we're having this discussion?


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ezz: please corrupt me more

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted:even with a see all funbction of a search for certain things in a topic function not everyone is ace on a keyboard and as for mine its a laptop and so my f keys tend to do all sorts of stuff like volums and screen and stuff so no use to me at all

and as said reading 64 page topics where most the pages is just drivvel chat from members going on and on about stuff not to do with the thread us that dont post often are not gona take the time to take ages reading them....

when someone posts asking a question is that such a bad thing even if it has been posted before means that they are trying to get involved in the community and people can help them get involved by maybe allowing the post with advice...

i dont post much now because of all the been done before stuff, im a member of a lot of forum type sites and run a dating one myself and we allow posts similar or the same as long as there is months between rather than same day or maybe within the first 5 pages of topics

in any forum im on search option is for those who know a past post is there and want to look again not to go do it before you post any topic just in case you get the same old thats been done before go search post that always seems to follow...

dont think ive seen many new topics that have been posted lately that havent been done before you might aswell stop being able to post before you have done a search just in case someone gets the hump


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

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Location: High Wycombe, England

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Posted:Written by: onewheeldave


Bringing this on topic- would it not be a good idea to scrap the phrase 'do a search' and to instead, as several have suggested, do the search yourself and post the result?



i.e. 'I've done a search and it's found this....'- which indicates to a newbie the value of searching.







I remember this being suggested last time this topic came up.

For a while, things were good - the sky was blue, clouds were white and fluffy and people posted search results in repeat threads.

After a while though, it seems that people got fed up with doing people's searches for them -especially if it was for easy to find topics that are in the helpful advice threads.

I can see why, doing a search takes a fair bit of time, why shouldn't that time be spent by the person who actually wants to find the thread?



I agree that newbies should be given a bit of leeway though, but how much?

How many repeat threads can they start before people are allowed to say 'look, you've been given some useful links and told how to use the search engine x times, isn't it time you used it?'



Written by: dani_babyboo


even with a see all funbction of a search for certain things in a topic function not everyone is ace on a keyboard and as for mine its a laptop and so my f keys tend to do all sorts of stuff like volums and screen and stuff so no use to me at all





It's not the function keys across the top of the keyboard - it's the key for the letter F.

Hold down the Ctrl button and hit F and hit should bring up the text search box smile



Written by:


and as said reading 64 page topics where most the pages is just drivvel chat from members going on and on about stuff not to do with the thread us that dont post often are not gona take the time to take ages reading them....





I agree - threads have a tendancy to fill up with rubbish off topic chat very quickly. That, I think, is another whole problem in itself.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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kakapopoi
SILVER Member since Feb 2006

kakapopoi

Member
Location: Somerset, United Kingdom

Total posts: 13
Posted:ditto filling up with rubbish is definitely another topic, speaking as a newbie myself i have looked for threads like the 2 i started (after being told *thanks for that by the way oh experienced ones*) but there are some threads on basically the same subject that are sooo long or havent been added to in over a year, in that case isn't it justified to start a new one?

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United...

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Posted:even so with control and f what exactly is it going to bring up
and what if its similar thread and yet not the anser the person wants

as said there is hundreds of stuff can be found and hundreds of stuff to search through

i thought forums were for chatting and finding info not being told same thing over and over


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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York, USA

Total posts: 3354
Posted:there's always irc....

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
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PyroWill
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

PyroWill

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Location: Staines, United Kingdom

Total posts: 4437
Posted:I do often think that we should just accept the fact that new people to this forum and indeed many forums (who don't really read 'stickies' and it could be there first time at a forum and not quite know the rules) will just create new threads, it'll ahppen, pretty much no matter what you do, you can't really stop it I don't think. So why don't we just accept it, older members ofthe forum probably don't have as much of an excuse, but I definately think the best approach is to accept the fact that its part of the life of a forum, we should just be helpful and suggest places to find it or indeed find it for them and then just alert a mod to inform them of the repeat post, all done nicely.

Its not an utter dire emergency that a newbie has posted a repeat thread, I've seen people on this forum tell me, 'quick a newbie has repeated a thread, got to notify the mod's asap'. It's not the end of the world, one click of a button by a mod and the thread has gone, so lets focus on just making thecreator of such thread feel welcome and to be *passively* informed of the best way to go about posting in future.

I remember first time I joined this forum which was also my first ever online forum I didnt have a clue about repeat posts, i didnt even know what a thread was, so we got to give people some leway


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Written by: dani_babyboo

even so with control and f what exactly is it going to bring up
and what if its similar thread and yet not the anser the person wants




It'll bring up a search engine that'll let you search through the page you're currently on for any instance of a particular word or phrase.
If it's not the answer that the person wants, then they keep looking for a bit, rather than giving up.

Written by:

as said there is hundreds of stuff can be found and hundreds of stuff to search through



Indeed, we do have a lot of information to search through, but if you want an answer to your question, why should you make someone else do the searching for you? It's going to take a fair amount of time whoever actually does the search - is your time more valuable than someone elses?

Written by:

i thought forums were for chatting and finding info not being told same thing over and over



Yep, one of the forums here is for chatting, and we have a fair few for finding info.
As far as I'm aware though, to find information you have to look for it, rather than being too slack and expecting someone else to do it for you.
I also wasn't aware that the forums were for telling people the same things over and over, but that's what happens when people don't bother searching.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:yeah...it happens in any forum you go in to over the whole internet.

maybe stop giving so much advuce about how to post (i can't believe we're actually posting on a thread about posting!)

make your own posts as relevant as possible...be nice to other people if you think they're posting in the wrong place. surely it's not that complicated an issue...just use your common sense. some threads are better new because more people post on them, some are better on old threads cause they contain info people need in one place, and some are just stupid.

to be honest, i think most people on here can tell the difference, and if they can't, they eventually after trawling through hours of rubbish they'll work it out for themselves.

so there :P


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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:Written by: dani_babyboo

even so with control and f what exactly is it going to bring up




what ever you want - that's the beauty of it. When you have the web page you want on your screen, hit control and F and a little box comes up (on my computer at the bottom left hand corner). I type in the word i want and it will take me to taht word and highlight it on the page. So you can get past the chat to see if the info is useful...

ubbrollsmile


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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United...

Total posts: 667
Posted:i wasnt saying people to search for others

you all obviously know what people are looking for to know its a repeat post and the answer is else where so go search isnt it just as easy to say right this is how you do it for more info look here

rather than re post go search blah blah blah as so many times i have had that and the only thought that comes in my head is oh really nice lot u are see ya later


as for the control f thing again i someone asks a question like how do u do something they obviously dont know what they are looking for and so how are they going to know what words to look for


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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:Surely they would just search for what they wanted to know? umm

i.e: If they want to learn the 5 beat weave, the obvious thing to type in is.. "five beat weave"

Wanted to know how to make sparkley poi, they would probably search for "sparkley poi"

If they wanted to know which music they shoud spin to, they should try "what music should I spin to?"

or am I being stupipd and missing something? shrug


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Mr_Chutney
SILVER Member since Apr 2003

Mr_Chutney

Tosser
Location: Herefordshire, England (UK)

Total posts: 1711
Posted:This is an idea that I floated back in another thread, also off-topic on searching, thus I can't search for it!

Anyway, here is the idea- I'm no programmer, but couldn't there be a propmt, or even a second page that flashes up when members try starting new topics?

It wouldn't add much time to adding a post (certainly no maore than is wasted when people end up going on repeated searches for others who haven't) and would probably be welcome to many who feel that there are too many absolutely identical reposts about things. (On a site such as this, material will be covered and recovered time after time, which isn't a bad thing as mentioned by Rob in his first post, BUT there is a case for trying to cut down avoidable and unhelpful duplications).

A prominent plug to search prior to posting, perhaps a link to Dom's forum guidleines, and then a proceed to create button?

It surely can't be that difficult, and could really help smile


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:I like that idea.

And I for one often don't have the time/patience to be nice about telling people its a repeat thread, if it really is it has to be deleted anyway (like what music should i spin to help i'm taking my poi on a plane) so I just hit notify mods and write them a short sentence...

I used to do searches for people. How about if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything.... just hit "notify mods" tongue

The mods will tell them about out of forum or repat posts!

I really like that second page idea tho!


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Written by: UraniumChipOxidationFacility

Surely they would just search for what they wanted to know? umm

i.e: If they want to learn the 5 beat weave, the obvious thing to type in is.. "five beat weave"

Wanted to know how to make sparkley poi, they would probably search for "sparkley poi"

If they wanted to know which music they shoud spin to, they should try "what music should I spin to?"

or am I being stupipd and missing something? shrug



If you are, then I'm also being stupid and missing something too.
People already know what they want to look for - there's no complicated misdirection system that redirects people to something that they don't want


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Malcolm
SAPPHIRE Member since Nov 2003

Malcolm

HOP admin
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 1027
Posted:Hi all,

I hope to have some solutions soon.

I am currently finishing a few "fixes".
New Lesson program that links to discussion threads.
Merge Threads program
Edit post HTML error with Quotes
The new post idea warning for new users is also a great idea.


May your balls always burn

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:Possibly using a script that scans a newbies post to see if certain keywords are found.
If they are, the script redirects them to hopefully what they were looking for.
i.e
"wire wool", "sparkley", "sparks" would bring up the sparkley poi FAQ

"music" or "tunes" "songs" would bring up the what music do you listen to thread.

Would a bot that automatically scans EVERY new thread and searches automatically for possible similar threads and brings these up suggesting adding to them instead of a new thread?

Im sure Malcolm has it all in control though smile
hug2
You rock. kiss


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ducky2108


ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 147
Posted:On another note however, I have seen a helpful bit of advice on a thread about corkscrews.

Someone said something along the lines of "this has been covered in a post just down the page", only it WAS NO LONGER DOWN THE PAGE. This infuriated me, as a) it turned out that it hadn't been covered and was actually quite different except for the title, and b)I would actually liked to have looked at that thread too.

It's not just the original poster who needs to think about these things.


Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"

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