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Forums > Social Discussion > personal preference against 'newbie advice'

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bluecat


bluecat

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Posted:so. i could have posted this in the 'doing a durbs thread, but its a significantly different opinion, i think, and thats kind of the point of the new thread anyway.



i LIKE double postings of threads.

i like that a new thread revitalises interest in something. and i think its rude to just tell people to do a search and not give them the help that goes with that.

bringing up a topic again(going back to an old one) means (usually) one or two posts will get made. bringing up a repeat topic means a whole different group of people get to talk about it. just cause we have one bakery in a town of 30,000 doesn't mean we automatically redirect everyone who wants a new bakery to that one, does it. different bakery, different style of cake.



in 'moves' i can see the point of linking to other threads. but i HATE seeing people say 'don't talk about this here. your opinion can't be nearly as good as the ones already posted over here' (not what it says, buit how it reads to many people)



why not just link, offer freindly advice, and let the people get on with posting or reading as they wish rather than making someone who is probably a bit nervous about the forum feel really, really small?



[/rant]



(small edit on advice of the lovely firepoise)

biggrin (this smiley automatically means i am a nice person and therefore should not receive any vitriolic replies)

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1139268969)


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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted:right what u was missing is when u have a question as ducky said doing a search and finding a post on the same thing yet it is full of chit chat and off topic yet 64 pages long we dont want to read all the coutless drivel.....

if people know its a re post they usually know cause they added to the last post and there fore probably have the answer to the question in hand yet say do a search what was the harm in answering

as it seems you have to do a search before postig anything as i posted a new joke only 2 days ago and had the same this has been done before
you cant seem to win


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

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Location: High Wycombe, England

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Posted:Again...

If you find a thread filled with stuff you don't want to read, use the show all function to put it all onto one page.
Then hit ctrl and F to search through that page for stuff you want, skipping through all the chat you don't want to read.

There are a few reasons why people don't just give the answer if they know it.
- it takes a fair bit of time.
- it fills the forums with loads of threads that all say the same thing, clogging up the pages with the same threads and quickly pushing more unique threads off the page.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted:but ive just said further up if its just a question u search for even with the cntrl f way then its gona take u to every post with that in and then u have to trawl through reading to find your answer as if u knew the answer to search for the way u say to then why would they want to know

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

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Posted:Are you saying that people shouldn't have to read in order to research the questions they want the answer for?

Of course you have to do some reading, but using ctrl f has a fair chance of cutting straight past all the off topic chat that you're complaining about.

Using a 3 beat weave as an example...
You do a search for 3 beat weave and find a thread that's got some good advice scattered through the chat.
Click on the show all link to bring up a single past of every post, then hit ctrl and f and search for 'weave'.
Since the chat posts are off topic, very few of them will have the word 'weave' in, so you skip past them by searching.

Like a steering wheel down my trousers, this is driving me nuts.
I'm starting to solidify my opinion that while we can offer as much advice and help as possible to try to get people searching for the answers they want, there's going to be a huge group of people who really just can't be bothered and see no reason why the answers shouldn't be served up to them on a silver platter while they sit back and do nothing.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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ducky2108


ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 147
Posted:On the other hand, I did a search yesterday. I was searching for music to spin to. Something which I'm reliably informed has been covered many times before.

I typed in "music to spin to", I typed "music", I typed "What music should I spin to", and about ten different variations on this theme.

I got pages and pages of results. I don't know how many, as there was no page counter I could see, just a next button. After clicking through about ten pages of results, finding one thread that was relevent (from the title), and not knowing how many more pages there were to trawl through, I gave up.

The much vaunted search function is far from perfect.


Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted:same here ducky in the past ive been told do a search and it searchs words in a topic/ post/ thread what ever and so yes getting poages of what ur asking and then u have to trawl through the lot to find the answer and its hard if u dont know exactly what your looking for

to me new posts are good maybe really big and very useful posts then they are good to offer advice if they are lept on topic but when ever a topic is posted the same old do a search hits the post every time it gets tedious

i remember posts i have contributed to and remember that if someone else asks something in other sites i do a search on find posts by me and re bump the post so the info is found not tell everyone do a search


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

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Posted:Try a search for +music +spin, and check the option for searching through the subject only.



That brings back 11 hits, 4 or 5 of which are threads about what music to spin to.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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ducky2108


ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 147
Posted:But how are we supposed to know this. We don't. And no-one explains it. They just tell us to do a search. It's only when we bring up issues like this that someone feels the need to spell out what is so obvious to them. But it's taken three pages to get us this far. When most people see "Searh on it", they don't know this information, which is why they don't.

Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"

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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York

Total posts: 3354
Posted:there's a nice little link that says 'advanced search tips'

p'raps you've seen it? wink


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

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Posted:There's actually a link on the search page - Advanced search options or something like that, which mentions that if you put a + before a word, it makes it another required keyword.



So, the search mentioned above was looking for any subject line with both 'music' and 'spin' in.



It also says that putting a - before a word excludes any posts with that word in.

So if I'd searched for music -spin, it would have brought back threads that mentioned music but not music that involved spinning as well.



Edit.. Checking the option to search through the subject only is always a good idea, because of all the off topic stuff.

If you're looking through the subject and the body of a thread, if anyone mentions music even once somewhere lurking at the bottom of page 14, the search will pick it up.



This doesn't always help mind - people often post a thread with a title that has nothing to do with the topic, so searching through just the titles would miss that.

EDITED_BY: TheBovrilMonkey (1139608599)


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ducky2108


ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 147
Posted:Having just tried the exact search you mentioned, it came up with no matches. Both with a space, and without.

Am I just stupid or something, or is this something I can't do because I'm just out of newbie-dom, or is it actually quite difficult to find what you want with a search.

Either way, is it any wonder people don't do searches.


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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York

Total posts: 3354
Posted:Written by: TheBovrilMonkey

Like a steering wheel down my trousers, this is driving me nuts.
I'm starting to solidify my opinion that while we can offer as much advice and help as possible to try to get people searching for the answers they want, there's going to be a huge group of people who really just can't be bothered and see no reason why the answers shouldn't be served up to them on a silver platter while they sit back and do nothing.



my sentiments exactly, though far better worded than I could've done clap


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ezz: please corrupt me more

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ducky2108


ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 147
Posted:Oh, and for the record, searching on +music and +spinning brings up about six threads, of which three are relevant.

Can you guess which phrase all three of these relevant threads all have in common. I managed to get two songs though.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Posted:Written by:


I'm starting to solidify my opinion that while we can offer as much advice and help as possible to try to get people searching for the answers they want, there's going to be a huge group of people who really just can't be bothered and see no reason why the answers shouldn't be served up to them on a silver platter while they sit back and do nothing.



Putting it like that does seem to indicate that you believe people who ask a question that's been covered before are just plain lazy.

Personally I disagree, for reasons already covered in this thread.

Written by: ducky2108

Having just tried the exact search you mentioned, it came up with no matches. Both with a space, and without.

Am I just stupid or something, or is this something I can't do because I'm just out of newbie-dom, or is it actually quite difficult to find what you want with a search.

Either way, is it any wonder people don't do searches.



My feelings are that people using the search engine and getting useless results are indeed a big factor for why they don't use it much.

I'm an intelleigent person, and experienced at doing web searches, yet, on numerous occasions have found HOPs search results to be fairly bizarre.

For newbies, I'd advise making use of the 'phrase search' where you use an exact phrase and put speech marks round it; for example, using-

"Either way, is it any wonder people don't do searches"

the search result will be this very thread.

As a further tip for newbies, if you do feel that someone on HOP has been unecessarily rude in the way they suggest you do a search, please realise that not everyone here feels that way towards newbies.

Personally, I'm finding some of the rudeness I see on HOP these days quite unpleasant.

I'd suggest that any newbies who do feel offended/pushed away by replies, that they use the 'notify mods' button and make their feelings clear.


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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York

Total posts: 3354
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave



My feelings are that people using the search engine and getting useless results are indeed a big factor for why they don't use it much.

......

Personally, I'm finding some of the rudeness I see on HOP these days quite unpleasant.




just speaking to these two points

just because people can't find what they want immediately, and need to sift through results, does that excuse them from not using it? I don't think it does, but that's just my opinion.

As for the rudeness, I see it as older members being fed up with answering the same questions again and again. So instead of not responding, which isn't helpful, they direct people the way to find it themselves.

maybe the tone of the responses could be more positive, but that's down to the individual


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

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Posted:Written by: ducky2108


Having just tried the exact search you mentioned, it came up with no matches. Both with a space, and without.





That's pretty odd. I was searching all forums, only the subject and not the body, with nothing in the poster name or post date fields. The search was for <+music +spinning>, but without the <> or any other punctuation.



Give me a couple of days and I'll see if I can rustle up a post about using the search engine.

Actually, sod it, it's time for a new (but slightly different) thread about searching smile



Written by: onewheeldave


Putting it like that does seem to indicate that you believe people who ask a question that's been covered before are just plain lazy.







Yeah, I probably should have worded that a bit better, although I was approaching full on ranting speed at the time.

I don't think that all of the people who don't search are lazy, but I get the impression that a fair few of them are. I recognise that there are also a fair few who don't search because they can't seem to find what they're after.

But, to me it would make more sense to ask for help searching, rather than doing nothing about it before complaining when people ask if you've done a search.

*shrug* the world would be a strange place indeed if everything made sense to me though.



Written by:


My feelings are that people using the search engine and getting useless results are indeed a big factor for why they don't use it much.







Indeed, we have a huge problem with useless results - a large part of which is due to repeat posts, another large part of which is due to posts that are way, way, way off topic.

I'm not sure what we can do about that though - people seem to ignore the requests about meaningful thread titles and staying on topic in the same way people ignore the requests to search before posting.



Written by:


Personally, I'm finding some of the rudeness I see on HOP these days quite unpleasant.





I think it's been building up for a while as more and more things start to first annoy people, then start to make them angry. There's only so much you can supress with the aim of keeping things nice here before it bursts out.

To be honest, I'm surprised it's kept as civil as it has.



Edit.. formatting and tidying up.

EDITED_BY: TheBovrilMonkey (1139613520)


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Posted:Let me clarify- by useless results I'm not talking about simply getting many search results- that indeed can be sorted out by re-doing the search with more specific terms (assuming some skill in searching).



I was talking about times when the search results yields a huge number of pages which have no relevance whatsever to the search terms used.



I remember that happening frequently to me in the past on several occasions; in fact, on searching for the very specific phrase I used in my example in my previous post, on the second occasion, I got a result of several pages which did not include the phrase I was searching for (repeating with the same phrase a further time,then yielded the correct result).



So, what I was getting at, is that when newbies get either 'buggy' results, or just inconsistent, then that makes them less inclined to use the search and this is not down to laziness.


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

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Posted:Well I find if you search for "Fairy Lights" without the quotation marks, then it will bring up every result with the letters FAIRYLGHTS in the title.

However if you search with the quotation marks then there should be little trouble.

It's basic search engine literacy that is the problem, not the randomness of the search or the trawling through threads.

I thought it was common knowledge, when searching things like Google, to put "" round it if you want that exact phrase? Or + if you want it as a keyword?

Maybe people should double check that they know how to search before complaining about the search engine (Or does that sound terribly elitist and disdainful? That's not the intent).

@Bovril: Good advice on using the Ctrl+F function, hopefully people will realise how much time it saves, especially if you have trouble skim reading.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Posted:I'm familiar with "" having just explained their use five posts back smile



What I'm talking about is bugs in the search engine itself.



But also, now you mention Google, it is in regard to google that, in the past, I've found the HOP search to be problematic.



i.e. in years gone by, I've considered myself adept at searching, found myself getting good results on Google, yet, in the same period, found HOP searches to be more problematic.



And, from what some of the newbies are saying, it has been a problem for them as well.



At the end of the day, if a lot of people are saying they're having problem searching, then it's safe to say some of it is due to laziness or lack of search experience; I'm just pointing out that some of it could well be down to other reasons.



Similarly, while some of the HOP community find newbies posting already covered questions to be really annoying, I think it's important for those of us who don't, and who perhaps find insensitively phrased 'do a search...' replies more annoying, to make our views known as well.



That way we get a picture of what the balance of opinion is on the board.


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

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Posted:I can't say I've ever seen any bugs in the search engine before (although that's not to say they're not there). The message that the server's too busy to do a full search is sometimes a problem though, although I find that searching through an individual forum section sorts that out most times.



As a point of interest, I've just started this thread, which will hopefully end up a list of hints and tips to help people use the search engine. If you've got anything to add to it, that'd be great smile


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ducky2108


ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 147
Posted:Part of this can be put down to elitism, as Sethis suggests. Yes, you know all the little tricks to searching. Not everyone does. In fact, probably more than 50% of the people here don't know the tricks. This is why people get so upset at being told to do a search, because they might have done, but still can't find what they're looking for. It's just that the people who suggest the searches assume a level of knowledge that they have, rather than a level that the majority have. In it's extreme form, this just comes through as arrogance.

On another note, when I searched on "+music +spinning" (without quotes), I was taken back to a post from 2001 which had the dreaded "this has been covered before" words in it. This was the earliest it went. I'm now starting to wonder how recently things that "crop up all the time" have actually been covered before, say within the last five years, and how much of it is a pavlovian response to "music to spin to" to assume that the threads have been covered when in fact the ones that have have been deleted.

Maybe this is a problem with the older members, maybe it's to do with the search function itself. I will say though that, for something to work effectively, it shouldn't have an assumed level of knowledge to use it which many people don't have. Most successful user friendly products are simple to use and pretty self explanatory.


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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted:so cause older members get fed up of answering its us that arent so old that are in the wrong

at least some inteligent answers are being given as i miss punctuation down to dyslexia so unless i have a reminder of using it i dont and so in searches i dont remember and have same whee i have searched yet every post with similar sounding words and letters have been brought up so i moved my questions else where

the way it sounds if it is all about the older members here then why is it a community? thats the biggest way to make newer members feel un welcome? the go search phrase is another highly un welcoming phrase

all i can see is older members get fed up
older members dont like it

so this is there site yer and no one elses?
we have tio ask permission to post and make sure it hasnt ever been covered, which in reality means do a search on any subject u want to post just in case u piss an older member off because its a re post and they dont like it!!!

why even let people join the site anymore


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Skulduggery
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Skulduggery

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Location: Wales

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Posted:I'd like to ask a question. This question is not aimed at anyone in particular.

If the idea of trying to do a search was just dropped and people were not requested to check if the topic they are about to start has been discussed already what would the forums end up looking like and just how easy would it be to find useful information?

I don't think this is a new members, old members issue, as some of you are trying to make out. I think it comes down to making an effort or not making an effort. I know the search engine can be a bit hard to get the hang of at first but if you bother to read the tips and hints people are giving you you will find it easier to use.

I'm not sure if I'm new or old I've been here about one and a half years. To some that makes me an old member to some I'm still wet behind the ears so let's not make it this into something it's not. This is an issue of how to find information you are looking for. How to get the answer.

I have to add as a little end point, I'm dyslexic. It really bugs me when people use their dyslexia as an excuse. I'm sorry if that offends anyone by me saying that, but yes I know it makes life harder when putting stuff into text, yes I know it makes spelling harder, yes I know it makes grammar harder too, but none of this is a reason to just give up on all of those things just because it's harder for you. Sadly you just have to make a bit more effort. That's what spell checking and grammar checking programs are there for. They are your friend!


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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted:the spell checker doesnt add grammer and sint there on the search is it? im not using it as an excuse just saying that some people are not the brains and bee all of searches and find it hard to get them right and take the endless info in you need to peform a search

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

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Location: Canada

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Posted:You know. if even half the effort that went into discussing "doing searches" went into simply answering newbie questions, we may just get some decent discussion going on in the moves section, like the OP was talking about.

I don't buy into this whole lets turn the moves section into a library philosophy. I know the arguments as to why some people advocate this, but IMO, it defeats the purpose of having a discussion board in the first place.

I'm not talking about the coloured flame or sparkley poi question, unless somebody has some new input ( like what type of coloured flame lamp oil actually works ) What I am talking about is discussing moves.

So there's 300 threads on the five beat weave?? does it really matter?

I'm know there's people who want to enter this community through the moves sections because I've seen several first posts in poi moves, which were responded to with "do a search" ...they turned out to be first AND last posts.

If you don't want to answer a "stupid newbie question" I suggest just ignoring it because there's people out there who will.


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Skulduggery
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales

Total posts: 8428
Posted:Dani, I'm guessing that on your computer you might have microsofts Word or another such program. That program has a spell/grammar check function on it. As a dyslexic I find it a God send and use it all the time to aid me in making my thoughts more readable in text.



I refuse to use dyslexia as an excuse not to attempt to post in a readable way or as a reason why I can't use the search function. I sometimes do post "I'm sorry if this post is worded in a bad way" and mention my dyslexia, but I will never say "put up with my bad spelling and grammar. It's not my fault. I'm dyslexic". I personally would feel I was letting dyslexia beat me if I did. I've worked long and hard to over come it and I refuse to let it win!



I sometimes in the past have found I can't find what I'm looking for with the search engine and have ask some other HoPpers in a PM to help me. There are a whole host of very nice HoPpers that have helped me out with that, Bov being one of them.



So the truth is that having dyslexia may cause you to have to take longer over learning how to use the search engine efficiently, but it's not an impossible task. You just have to work at it and if you get stuck ask someone in the know how to get results.



Once the list of tips and hints has been collected, tidied up and put into easy terms, that everyone can understand, it can then be posted up as a tips and hints section attached to the search page to help everyone to use.


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ducky2108


ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 147
Posted:Written by: Skulduggery


I don't think this is a new members, old members issue, as some of you are trying to make out. I think it comes down to making an effort or not making an effort. I know the search engine can be a bit hard to get the hang of at first but if you bother to read the tips and hints people are giving you you will find it easier to use.





Not all of us are making this an old/new debate. However, for somethings, the search function isn't great. As I said above, I searched, and looked with the new hints and tips, and I've taken on board all the suggestions people have made. However, what I came up with were posts that just said it's already been covered. From 2001. Now, is it a problem with the search engine, not finding some threads, or is it a problem where people assume, that having seen people say it's been covered, assume it has.

And I know, that if I ask for help and ideas with music to spin to, people will just say do a search, no matter how much I say I have and it's turned up useless results. I'll just get responses of "well it has, so search on it".

I also agree with someone else on here who said that if some people got there way, then this would just turn into a library, with the only new post cropping up being extremely advanced moves which most people won't even consider trying. Why should it be like that?


Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire

Total posts: 667
Posted:stout has hit the nail on the head there it is turning into a library rather than a discussion board

enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token

o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek

stepped up promotions

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Just so I've got this straight, not only do you want this forum to be easy to search, you also want it filled with lots of repeat threads?



I think those two points are pretty much exclusive - as soon as you have lots of people posting the same kinds of threads all the time, the search engine has a fit and runs off to the corner to have a strop.



What's wrong with having a library of threads? There's been a hell of a lot of ground covered on the basics - why not have it all collected into one thread that gets updated once in a while. Does it make any sense at all to just keep repeating it? Much of it never changes.



As a point of note, on the first page of the poi moves section merely 6 threads involved someone asking a question and getting an answer of 'do a search'.

The other 41 involved people either asking questions and getting helpful answers that went on to discuss the move in question, or people having a discussion about new moves.

It seems that if this place is turning into a library, the librarian's going to be getting very angry since there's a fair bit of conversation going on.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Skulduggery
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales

Total posts: 8428
Posted:Ok for you Ducky I have done a search for music threads by typing in +music into the engine.

Here are my results after a 10 min flick through.

One about trance music

Suggestions of traditional music to poi to.

Links to get "good music"

Suggestions of Djembe drumming

A classical slant on music

Some suggestions of eastern music

Ok I'll stop now because I'm sure you are catching my drift by now.

These threads are not dusty old tombs if you don't let them be. If instead of starting a new thread you added to the bottom of these older threads you will be keeping them up to date whilst retaining the older information at the same time..... all in one place, hence making searching for them easier at a later date because you won't have to wade through all the other threads that might have been started up, if not for people bumping up the old threads.


Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

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