Forums > Social Discussion > personal preference against 'newbie advice'

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 1234
bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:so. i could have posted this in the 'doing a durbs thread, but its a significantly different opinion, i think, and thats kind of the point of the new thread anyway.



i LIKE double postings of threads.

i like that a new thread revitalises interest in something. and i think its rude to just tell people to do a search and not give them the help that goes with that.

bringing up a topic again(going back to an old one) means (usually) one or two posts will get made. bringing up a repeat topic means a whole different group of people get to talk about it. just cause we have one bakery in a town of 30,000 doesn't mean we automatically redirect everyone who wants a new bakery to that one, does it. different bakery, different style of cake.



in 'moves' i can see the point of linking to other threads. but i HATE seeing people say 'don't talk about this here. your opinion can't be nearly as good as the ones already posted over here' (not what it says, buit how it reads to many people)



why not just link, offer freindly advice, and let the people get on with posting or reading as they wish rather than making someone who is probably a bit nervous about the forum feel really, really small?



[/rant]



(small edit on advice of the lovely firepoise)

biggrin (this smiley automatically means i am a nice person and therefore should not receive any vitriolic replies)

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1139268969)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete Topic

ducky2108
ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow
Member Since: 18th Dec 2005
Total posts: 147
Posted:Yes, and of the top 25, of which I presume most people have as their default setting, you have four which say "search". Of the other 21, 3 are sticky, so there's no point putting search in those (although I haven't checked-it might be there), at least four (maybe 7)which are about general discussion (arguements about hoops, sock poi v. other types, etc) and not directly related to moves, and a number of others related to contact/wraps/throws.

Now I know these moves are just as important as the basics. Infact, some may see them as more important, as they see them as an advancement to the hobby. But, on the same hand, surely the passing on of information is also seen as a way to advance the hobby by creating new blood.

Why does an ease of search have to be mutually exclusive of repeat posts. Why assume that the original, and only post, has all the information you could need. If an old post were to be bumped by a newbie, with say 20 pages, how many older (not old, just not newbies) would ignore it, and not post anything new, assuming it has already all been covered.

Written by: TheBovrilMonkey
What's wrong with having a library of threads? There's been a hell of a lot of ground covered on the basics - why not have it all collected into one thread that gets updated once in a while. Does it make any sense at all to just keep repeating it? Much of it never changes.



That's the problem though. It's not all contained in one thread. Also, maybe, just maybe, the way it is worded in the original thread is not comprehensible to the one asking the question now. Maybe, there are new websites out which could help.

The idea of a community is to keep the community going. What you suggest, with the Library of old skills, only added to with new, exciting, and increasingly elite moves, will not keep the community alive. It will just allow it to die out with it's older members.

Sometimes, I wonder, not just on this forum but on others too, if these sorts of attitudes are employed to keep hobbies, somewhat suconciously, away from the mainstream.


Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"

Delete

ducky2108
ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow
Member Since: 18th Dec 2005
Total posts: 147
Posted:To be honest, I was just using the music as an example. I don't really care, and will spin to what I like. I just used it as an example of how difficult it is to search on something.

and if you just searched on "+music", why is that any different to just searching on the word "music"?

Are you catching my drift now?


Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"

Delete

Skulduggery
Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales
Member Since: 12th Aug 2004
Total posts: 8428
Posted:Written by: ducky2108




Sometimes, I wonder, not just on this forum but on others too, if these sorts of attitudes are employed to keep hobbies, somewhat suconciously, away from the mainstream.





As a Hobbiest myself I'd have to say that I have NEVER found HoP to be that way. I've found it friendly, welcoming and helpful.



[edit] I give up....... Post as many new threads as you like. Cover and recover as much old ground as you like. BUT in 6-12 months time when the whole board is swamped with repeat threads, the search engine keeps coming back to you saying it can't search that much info, whenever you try looking for anything you have posted in the past and Malcolm can no longer fund the bandwidth needed to run the forums, don't say people didn't try to help sort out this problem or just told you "go search" because there are some of us out here that do try and help other people out. We do searches for people and we give them links to what they ask for.

EDITED_BY: Skulduggery (1139700478)


Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

Delete

dani_babyboo
dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire
Member Since: 23rd Feb 2005
Total posts: 667
Posted:Other forums seem to delete old posts and pin useful ones.
they dont let the bandwidth clog up


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token

o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek

stepped up promotions

Delete

ducky2108
ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow
Member Since: 18th Dec 2005
Total posts: 147
Posted:Yes, but as a hobbiest myself, I have already ruled out posting for advice on this forum. And that's mainly because, by reading the response other have gotten, that I know exactly the response I will get.



I'm on here because a) I enjoy the debates I have with people- this one included, and b) to get to kno wother poi spinners.



Not all oldies(forgive the phrase, but I don't know what to call them) tell people to do a search, but then on the same side of the arguement, not all newbies want the site to become unusable. If YOU give up trying after four pages, then is it any wonder we're having this discussion.



Is it so hard to comprehend that not everyone knows as much as you? You can do your bit and provide the searches, which is a very good thing to do. But why at the same time are you trying to defend those who prevent people like me (who is new to this site), from posting, not so much through fear but through the fact that they know it's pointless.

EDITED_BY: ducky2108 (1139701534)


Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"

Delete

TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Written by:

Why does an ease of search have to be mutually exclusive of repeat posts.



Because if you have lots of repeat posts then you get lots of search results and have to trawl through them all to find what you're looking for.
*slaps forehead* Why am I telling you this, since you were complaining about this earlier, I should have known that you already know.

Written by: ducky2108

That's the problem though. It's not all contained in one thread.



And how will posting lots of new threads about the same topic help?
I refuse to believe that people will ignore people who are trying to revive an old topic about some of the more basic moves.
I've seen people jump into large old threads and continue the conversation as if nothing's happened too many times.

Written by:

But, on the same hand, surely the passing on of information is also seen as a way to advance the hobby by creating new blood.



Yes, it's very important that information is passed on as well as possible to new blood.
Why then, are you complaining about the suggestions made that'll make it easier, if only the new blood went looking, rather than wanting everything dropped into their laps?

We've apparently just hit 30,000 members.
If each of them started a new thread entitled 'How do I do a 3 beat weave', along with '5 beat weave, is it possible?', 'what music do you spin to', 'how do I make sparkley poi?' and 'what do I need for coloured flames' threads, don't you think it'd be just a tiny bit cluttered up in here?
That's why we want people to do a search, so we don't get swamped by everyone asking the same thing over and over and over again, to be given the same answers over and over and over again.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Delete

Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:But someone new to these boards and putting their first post in poi moves, only to be met with do a search, read we've talked about this before,,,go read, might perceive these boards as unhelpful.

That Happened two weeks ago, it was a BTB rev weave question I believe, it was the new user's first and last post. The post was up for 7 minutes before it got shot down. I just noticed another one that lasted 2 minutes, there's another that turned into a discussion about a television show.

It's only in the past week that poi moves has actually started to move, it's been a tomb in there for months.

Maybe a special beginners poi section may help alleviate some of the difficulties. Create a place where we can all ask our newbie questions, and get our newbie answers and those people interested in having a library can just avoid the place.

I'm all for advancing these arts but I can't do it from a technical standpoint,.What I can do is answer questions within my ability, hoping that my answers will shed a small amount of light on the confusion most people experience when first starting out in these arts. There's a lot of lone poi spinners out there, trying to learn online.


Delete

Skulduggery
Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales
Member Since: 12th Aug 2004
Total posts: 8428
Posted:Just where have I ever tried to stop you posting, I positivly encouraged you to post by bumping up older threads to revive the information that is already in them and to add to them!

Bov has already explained in a couple of posts what adding the + and - signs do.

It appears to me that you just want to argue around in circles.

We offer up help and all we get is slaps in the face when we do.


What is the point?


Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

Delete

pricklyleaf
pricklyleaf

with added berries
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 7th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1365
Posted:Ok, this is a difficult issue, and on that seems to be upsetting a few people at the moment.

Firstly, the old member\new member thing. I'm kind of in the middle, being a memeber for about a year. Personally I think that HoP is a very welcoming community, filled with lovely people, and it upsets me when there are suggestions of newbie victimisation etc. Yes, often it is posted just 'do a search', however, the way it is said has improved miles since when I joined. Now, very rarely is just 'do a search' posted, but most members also post results, to help newbies, who might not have found\ got to grips with the search engine yet. I really do think things are improving.

As for the search engine itself, no its not perfect, but you can find threads with it. I've never used the + prefix, and I've not had much trouble with it. However, if people are having difficulty with it, then obviously it still needs improving. That is why Malcolm introduced the thread rating system, in the hope that the most useful threads would appear at the top. Obviously this hasn't solved the problem, but it has started to help, we all need to remember to keep rating the threads.

I think it is important that we don't have forums full of repeat post. It wastes bandwidth which costs money, and would mean having to trawl through pages of repeat threads to find threads that are actuallly something new, that might be interesting.

Another reason why it's good to keep everything in one place is so that way, the old information is never forgotten about and can only be improved on. So better explanations of moves can be developed in a thread, that may help more people, rather than having to start over again in every new thread. It also means the board caters for people who just want quick reference information, who perhaps haven't got time to wait for a reply to a post, or who hasn't registered.

It is however, a shame that certain threads are left to fall to the bottom of the forums, as they rarely get bumped, meaning they become out of date, and you end up with threads full of do a search that lead you on wild goose chases through the forums. However, we are trying to solve that as a community, for instance the creation of the helpful advice threads at the top of the forums. I think we all need to start bumping and adding to these threads more.

We're a huge community, and we're never all going to be pleased at the same time, we have to live on a fine balance of compromise, in this case between those who want the repeat threads, and those who want the more library like board. Between making the board accessible and freindly to those just starting out, and those who are at an advanced level.

I don't think this is as big a problem as some seem to think. I've seen many threads posted that say, did a search but I couldn't find anything useful\helpful to me, and people post helpful replies in answer, rarely saying look at this other thread.

And yes I think a few people get a little trigger happy with the do a search thing, for instance ducky, when you started a thread on knitting, and someone posted to look at a thread that was actually compleatly irrelavent. So maybe there needs to be some mass reeducation about this. But all I can say is that the majority of us really try to make HoP community to work.

I think the problems at the moment are partly happening because of the sudden mass expansion of members (the community has round about doubled in size in the last year), and that, it hasn't been able to change quite fast enough, but is slowly adjusting to cope with the new influx. I think we just need to be a bit patient, and it will settle down soon. I think that the expansion can only be a good thing by the way. The more people we have, the more people there are to contribute to the communtiy as a whole, and develop the field of object manipulation, moving it on futher, fresh blood, new ideas.

Anyway, this has got waaaay longer than I expected.

So I'll leave with this meditate grouphug


Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Delete

Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Maybe I'm missing something here. How does bandwidth figure into the equation? Does it take that much more bandwidth to make a post and make a reply/replies than it takes to just come on here and read?

Should I feel guilty answering someone's question on the butterfly, because I'm taking up too much bandwidth. If so, I would appreciate it if HOP management would let me know, then I'll order another copy of COL 2005.


Delete

fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:*sighs*

this never would've happened if durbs hadn't gone on holiday wink


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:grumpy ol dogs vs. puppies? wink

easy lads, easy - grouphug the search engine isn't perfect, but then again: who is? To have one or the other thread started new isn't gonna do too much damage, but doing a search and reviving old ones also is not gonna hurt. Mods going through old threads and deleting them... hmmm, dunno about that one...

Grammar and spellcheck is a virtue, as is politeness and consideration. Ol'skoolers don't have to feel obliged to answer to anything that is coming up - but if then at least try to be patient footinmouth

Let's try to keep this a friendly place and a hug ing community...

angel wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Written by: Skulduggery

Ok for you Ducky I have done a search for music threads by typing in +music into the engine.
Some suggestions of eastern music




Nice one Skully! my sort of music, a helpful response and saved me making a new thread about it wink


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

Delete

pricklyleaf
pricklyleaf

with added berries
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 7th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1365
Posted:Written by: stout

Maybe I'm missing something here. How does bandwidth figure into the equation? Does it take that much more bandwidth to make a post and make a reply/replies than it takes to just come on here and read?

Should I feel guilty answering someone's question on the butterfly, because I'm taking up too much bandwidth. If so, I would appreciate it if HOP management would let me know, then I'll order another copy of COL 2005.



OK, as someone said before, we now have over 30000 members, if every one of them posted a new thread about sparkly poi, coloured flames and what music do you spin to, then I get the impression, that this would use bandwidth. I could be wrong, we all make mistakes.

I never said or implied, that anyone should feel guilty for posting replies to people to help them, I was just suggesting that if we had 10000 threads asking the same question, and another 10000 threads asking another question, this may be a waste of [space - is that better?].

I also imagine that people, even the newer members would get fed up of replying to the same question over and over again, and you would end up with lots of threads with noone answering them, and then with it difficult to search for the information because of all the repeat threads, meaning that noone gets the information they wanted. I think this is why it is important to try and keep the number of repeat threads down.

Anyway, like I said before, I think that HoP is a great space, that has to live on a fine compromise, it may not be without its problems, but then nothing is perfect. biggrin


Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Delete

dani_babyboo
dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire
Member Since: 23rd Feb 2005
Total posts: 667
Posted:30,000 members how many of them joined years ago and never have been back and how many actually do become active on the boards, maybe that is unessesary bandwidth space too and if years ols unuseful threads were deleted the bandwidth wouldnt get clogged up

we have auto clean up on our boards stuff not posted in in 12 months dets auto deleted unless it is sticky or a news post or we put a mark to prevent it happening, same as with members if they join and dont post for months we clean them out to sendng out an email with our reasons and giving them 7 days to sign in or they would have to re register.


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token

o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek

stepped up promotions

Delete

Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:I don't think this has anything to do with grumpy old dogs vs puppies, as I'm sure there are plenty of newbies out there who are more than willing to answer other newbies questions. Nobody is under any obligation to answer anything.

As to the numbers thing, OK we have 30 000 registered, but how many are active? More specifically how many are actve in the moves forums? I'll leave you to your own determinations, but 10 000 threads asking the same question is not really within the realm of probability.

Like I said in a pervious post, I'm well aware of what could happen if everybody started their own thread every time they had a question, but it's not happening, and from what I've seen, there's more that a few people who have questions, but are reluctant to post.

Sparkley poi, and coloured flames really belong in the technical section, and music is more of a chat thing, so those topics aren't really at the heart of this issue, not in the way that a subject like the 4BT TTN is.


Delete

newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:What's a 4BT TTN? I did a search and found lots of references to various TTNs but they all assume I knew what one is... umm

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

Delete

Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607

pricklyleaf
pricklyleaf

with added berries
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 7th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1365
Posted:4bt ttn = 4 beat, thread the needle. (aka push throughs in Michel Kahns book - they are in the butterfly family, there should be a lesson on here if you don't know what they are).

Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Delete

Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Nice link Patriarch biggrin

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Delete

Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:What about zero threads? Its like opposite to search. Someone may dislike posting "do a search". But it is as well kind of help as posting and answer.



But zero threads, threads without answer is much poinfull to what Bluecat meen.



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

Delete

newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:AHA!!! Thread the Needle!! of course!!!! Makes sense once you know!! I feel so initiated!

*i know what TTN means, nah nah nah nah nah*


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

Delete

dani_babyboo
dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire
Member Since: 23rd Feb 2005
Total posts: 667
Posted:Written by: stout

I don't think this has anything to do with grumpy old dogs vs puppies, as I'm sure there are plenty of newbies out there who are more than willing to answer other newbies questions. Nobody is under any obligation to answer anything.

As to the numbers thing, OK we have 30 000 registered, but how many are active? More specifically how many are actve in the moves forums? I'll leave you to your own determinations, but 10 000 threads asking the same question is not really within the realm of probability.

Like I said in a pervious post, I'm well aware of what could happen if everybody started their own thread every time they had a question, but it's not happening, and from what I've seen, there's more that a few people who have questions, but are reluctant to post.

Sparkley poi, and coloured flames really belong in the technical section, and music is more of a chat thing, so those topics aren't really at the heart of this issue, not in the way that a subject like the 4BT TTN is.



i have to agree with exactly this


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token

o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek

stepped up promotions

Delete

Tom_Shill
Tom_Shill

enthusiast
Location: Brighton
Member Since: 19th Dec 2005
Total posts: 213
Posted:I think one of the main issues is weather HoP is to be viewed primarily as a resource or as a community, particularly in 'moves'. Chat and discussion are generally quite fresh, given the scope of things that can be discussed there there doesn't seem to be that much duplication. But in 'moves' there is certainly the feeling around that it should be a catalogue of information to be referred to, therefore duplication is shunned.

As someone who's only joined recently I found this quite unusual at first, and difficult to get used to. It's like going to a meeting in a library with a load of experts in a subject and saying "so, I've been thinking about this, how's it done, what do you think about it?" or whatever, and them saying "well I wrote a book on it and it's over there, he wrote an article in response to it and that's over there" and so on. So you come to a complete, static discussion, in which other people have discussed things amongst themselves and you're expected to learn from that.

Not only is this rather unhelpful, but it comes across as slightly arogant, the implication being that your input is not required to enhance the discussion. However in any subject it's often the case that someone who knows comparatively little about a subject will ask different questions to more experienced people and thereby expose issues and ideas that wouldn't have otherwise come to light. I'm not saying that anyone IS arogant in this way, just that that's how it can come across to someone interested in hearing their opinion or looking for their help. So I think it is of great value to go over old topics again, because even if all of the original people involved in the discussion took part, just one newbie would completely alter the direction the discussion took. Moreover, many of the relevant threads are burried way down the list, and creating a new one may introduce the idea/issue/whatever to people who wouldn't have searched for the original but are nevertheless interested and have worthy contributions to make.

Bloody hell, that was a bit long. So...new threads good! smile


Will those capable of telekinesis please raise my hand?

Delete

animatEd
animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 3540
Posted:Sorry to bump a thread such as this, but...

I notice in a few cases, when a New user has just joined up, and made an introduction, the first few posts are telling them to do a search!! They haven't even made any posts that would warrant doing a search, and they're told to search 'just in case'!

To me, this seems really rude... shrug

If I got told that when I made my introduction, I really wouldn't want to hang around here...

I'm sure there's a phrase... 'Innocent until proven guilty', or something along those lines...


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

Delete

fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:it seems because they're asking for meeting places in the intro threads...

at least i think those are what you're talking about


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

Delete

animatEd
animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 3540
Posted:Hang on, I'll link you to a thread...



EDIT:



Link 1



Link 2



The second link is a bad example, because the first post has been edited. It was never a post that needed a 'Do a search response', but more like one of the typical 'I'm so and so, and I like spinning poi' type intros.



Damn, I didn't want to have to name names... frown

EDITED_BY: Leaning_Towards_Corruption (1141852668)


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

Delete

dani_babyboo
dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire
Member Since: 23rd Feb 2005
Total posts: 667
Posted:im agreeing with u leaning i would have been long gone after that and it seems the first one didnt stop to reply to his own post

i really am starting to dislike this site for the fact before you post anything you have to go do a search regardless of what it is

thats why i no longer make any posts and i very rarely reply to anything unless i have a strong opinion which most do not like but hey im an opinionated so and so


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token

o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek

stepped up promotions

Delete

Page: 1234