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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this yet. For those who don't know;



For an article (note the date):

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/382
br>


Some other interesting points to add;

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/287
br>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)
br>


Feel free to discuss.

EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1139216786)


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireByNite
FireByNite

Are you up for it??
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 8th Dec 2004
Total posts: 349
Posted:It's taken that long to get to our country & only 1 newspaper actually agreed to run the cartoons

Are you up for it?
wink;)

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Two people died today as a result of rioting over this.

Stupid, just stupid. frown


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Seye
Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Since: 27th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1261
Posted:It is absolutely insane!

"We're trying to prove that the cartoons present a false image of our profit as a man of violence by killing foreigners and burning down embasies in his name."

There have been protests here in the UK too!

I am getting so fed up of the problems that religious fundamentalism is causing around the world. How many more people have to die before we stop taking these people's views seriously?


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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:It's a cartoon. Cartoons make fun of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE at some point or another. Why the hell are people burning embassies and rioting over it??

censored RETARDS!!!!

Life -> Suffering.
Religion -> More Suffering.

Just learn how to take a censored joke!


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:It strikes me that this is in a grey area straddling 'free speech' and being offensive towards a cultural group.

Muslims take this kind of thing very seriously and I doubt that the protests are limited to just fundamentalist muslims in this case.

I think if we use as an analogy, say, a cartoon of Jesus that ridicules him, we'd be inclined to say that the muslims are wrong to take this so seriously, as, in our culture, mocking Jesus is seen as acceptable.

However, what if we imagine a cartoon that, say, blamed homosexuals for AIDS? or a cartoon that implied that female rape victims are responsible for being raped?

I would imagine that, in those cases, homosexual groups/women rights groups would be inclined to protest very strongly.

Much as we live in a land of 'free speech'; that has never meant that 'anything goes', some things are considered unacceptable, and there are limits to what can be joked about.

The question is, does a cartoon mocking the muslim prophet fall on the wrong side of that line?

Personally, I'd be disinclined to publish cartoons that inflame the muslim community like this.

Then again, there are other issues, such as-

1. Christian/other religious groups will pick up on the fact that this could be seen as prejudiced against them (if images/words offensive to muslims are banned, then what about images/words that are offensive to Christ/Buddha etc)

2. Would banning words/images offensive to Muslims give the message to other groups that violent protest gets you what you want?

3. Whilst the west has to respect the cultural views of muslims, is it not also the case that muslims living in western lands have to respect the cultural views of the west; one of which is the emphasis on free speech and the right to ridicule religion and religious figures?

To be honest though, on this one I've not really got a solid opinion- it's a complex issue with a lot of implications/connections.

The muslim faith is spreading and growing at an incredible rate and, where it meets other cultures there is a blurring where both tend to compromise to some extent.

(an example, on the muslim side, being the way that, as fundamentalist terror attacks have become big issues, moderate muslims groups have increasingly tried to distance themselves from and condemn as un-muslim, the fundamentalist groups responsible).

It would be interesting to hear the views of moderate muslims who recognise the value of integration, on this issue.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Incidentally, do we have many muslim members on HOP?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:HoP is white only. Didn't you read the guidelines?

wink wink wink

[Typical NYC sarcasm with typical amount of truth and ironic reflective social commentary to it.]


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave
I think if we use as an analogy, say, a cartoon of Jesus that ridicules him, we'd be inclined to say that the muslims are wrong to take this so seriously, as, in our culture, mocking Jesus is seen as acceptable.



Southpark comes to mind...

What also bugs me is the outrage over a recent Tom Toles cartoon.
Shown Here
Conservatives are claiming this is disrespectful of soldiers, when it's quite the opposite. It is belittling the commander-in-chief and his flunkie cabinet. Or maybe they do understand that and that's why their whining so loud.

Me think they doth protest too much.

As for the Mohammed thing ... I don't get it, but I'm also no Muslim.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Prometheus
As for the Mohammed thing ... I don't get it, but I'm also no Muslim.

You know, neither do I. Islam prohibits depictions of the prophet for the sole reason of preventing idolatry. Personally I don't think there is any chance of idolatry coming from these cartoons. However there seems to be a lot of idolatry of the prophet by members of the Islamic community at the moment. This entire thing seems to be a misinterpretation of Islamic law to me.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Seye
Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Since: 27th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1261
Posted:OWD - If newspapers printed the cartoons you mentioned (AIDS / rape) no-one would be getting murdered, no buildings would be burned and it would be handled in a responsible manner.
Also - 'fundamentalism' A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. (from http://www.thefreedictionary.com)
br>
I have absolutely no sympathy for people who choose to display their dissatisfaction by acting like savages. I'm sick of people saying that we have to be sympathetic to people's religious beliefs regardless of how ridiculous they might be.
Anything can be justified in the name of religion. Laws are altered to accomodate it. Schools must now accomodate it. What the hell ever happened to intellectual society?


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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Whilst I understand what OWD is saying and think it's a very valid point, I think anyone who gets this enraged by a newspaper cartoon is both naive and not living in the modern world. Even if it was a cartoon showing something which western people would find offensive, in countries which practise freedom of speech, even remakrs which are deemed in extremely bad taste are permissable.



Just because something is a tenet of a particular religion, I don't feel that a lack of sensitivity to a culture that is clearly not that of the editorial team of the danish newspaper (etc) is justification for flag-burning, fatal rioting, or the calls for the "culprits" to be decapitated by muslim groups in Denmark as has been reported today. It's just a farce. The offended groups are willfully being as ignorant as the paper who published the picture initially by judging such behaviour unacceptible in places in the world that practise free speech. European society wasn't founded on muslim principles, nor does it by and large recognise them as something which non-muslim citizens should follow, so the fact that non-muslims have behaved in a non-muslim way is not a reason to punish them in accordance with muslim law, in my opinion.



Religion as a sheild for intolerance or violence is unacceptable in the western world, whatever race or belief you have. I feel like I'm being very right-wing which I don't think is in my nature, but I think people either have to accept multiculturalism and things like this which arise from it, or not expect recognition or representation in cultures which practise it.



I hope that's not too offensive, I certainly don't mean it to be redface


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
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Boo_Bunny
Boo_Bunny

Sparkely arty Mormon rainbow fairy
Location: infront of you
Member Since: 18th Mar 2005
Total posts: 933
Posted:What i dont get is that a newspaper makes fun of them, so they torch an embassy.
It doesnt seem logical.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:We must learn to understand that temper plays a key role in the behaviour of these wo/men (even though this is a generalised statement)... and the attitude of disrespect against "god" exactly brands us as being weak, decadent and degenerated...

We do know that the cartoonists wanted to actually show something and not to insult Mohammed or god himself, but it hurt some peoples feelings. How would a christian feel if a cartoonist showed Woytyla with a prostitute, or a little boy in bed?

Logic is a privilege when it comes to retaliation...

Also it should be learned by now that some people regard other people collectively responsible - however stupid that might be IMO.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I think in situations like this it's good to try and get some understanding of the moderate, rational muslim point of view.

Even if, ultimately, we decide they are misguided, understanding is always going to be the root of mutaully satisfactory resolution.

And I think an understanding of the feelings of moderate muslims on this is likely to be lacking with most of us here- certainly I have no real idea of why the cartoons are so offensive.

In the apparent absence of any muslim regular posters on HOP, I did a quick google search which yielded-

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IV0602-2897
br>
Written by: exerpts from above link


We can be certain that the editors publishing the Muhammad caricatures would not smear their pages with anti-Semitic graffiti. Or commission drawings maligning the Pope, by depicting him, say, in compromising sexual positions.

...........It is this double standard that's at the heart of the repeated conflicts between the West and the world of Islam over how far anti-Islamic provocateurs can go in baiting Muslims, repeatedly, knowing full well the depth of Muslim feelings about their most cherished beliefs.

...........The Danes have neither defended freedom of speech well nor upheld another sacred secular principle, mutual respect between peoples of all faiths.

In balancing these two competing rights in this troubled world at this time, thinking people and responsible public institutions should err on the side of advancing mutual understanding, not fanning more conflicts.





"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:From a different page on the same site-



Written by:


What was even more disturbing was the response of Muslims. Boycotting Danish products, closing down the offices of European diplomatic offices and the beating of Dane's working in the Gulf were measures that did not suit a community whose Prophet is described in the divine scriptures as a Mercy to Humankind.



Immediately, after the battle of Badr, Omar bin al Khattab, one of the most celebrated companions of Prophet sought the permission of the state to punish Suhail bin Amr, a prisoner of war who had engaged in anti-Prophet Muhammad propaganda in Makkah. Suhail was known for his abusive language and insulting attitude towards the Prophet. Prophet Muhammad , as the ruler of the newly formed Islamic State strictly prohibited his companions from punishing or torturing any prisoner of war on account of their past hostilities. He admonished Omar bin al-Khattab for seeking retribution. After all, the Prophet had endured all the possible humiliation at the hands of the elites of Makkah and their supporters without asking any of his supporters to silence his opponents.



Islam recognizes the dissent to its teachings and appeals to its adherents to deal with it in a civil manner. Islam promotes the idea that a polite response and a decent rebuttal are powerful enough in changing the worst enemy into a friend. Islam does not seek revenge of those who indulge in anti-Islam, anti-God or anti-Prophet abuses. Furthermore, Islam prohibits the use of pressure and intimidation for changing the hearts of people.



Islam teaches us that coercion is incapable of bringing a change in the attitude of people. Intimidation might make others change their immediate reaction to Islam but ultimately it is futile because every individual has to make a conscious decision about his or her relations with God and His creation.



The provocation of Danish and other European newspapers was foolish and full of hatred. There is no need for such provocation in a world that is fast becoming cosmopolitan in all its dimensions. The freedom of speech cannot be used as an excuse to hurt or insult others. Moreover, there exists double standards in this matter among most European and American journalists working for big media corporations. Most of these advocates of freedom of speech do not dare write against the foul practices of multinational corporations that often provide bread and butter to most working journalists. Most of them do not dare to expose the dirty trade practices, excessive exploitation and other violation of human rights of people working in such corporations. Most of them would not even touch the so called issues of national security even if the position of the power elite is against national interests. A case in point is the War in Iraq.







and-



Written by:




No doubt, each of us feels hurt when we see an offensive depiction of our faith or our Prophet. However, rather than reacting in an emotional manner, we should use the opportunity to demonstrate true Islamic values of patience and persuasion. We showed our weakness in controlling our emotions when Salman Rushdie insulted our Prophet. We have repeated the same mistake. By now we should have learned about the teachings of our prophet in dealing with such cases. Perhaps we need to go back to study the life of our Prophet in more detail to develop a better understanding of his character and teachings as well as his mission in the world. After all, we accept him as a Mercy to Humankind that includes Dane's, Norwegian, French, Germans, Jews, Christians and every human being that exists or will exist in our universe.







Dr. Aslam Abdullah is editor-in-Chief of the Muslim Observer and the director of the Islamic Society of Nevada as well as the director of the Muslim Electorates Council of America.





"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Igirisujin
Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 2666
Posted:They tske things far too sriously, I heard on tv someone was calling for these protesters to be arrested and charged with insiting hatred or whatever and I agree, theres really no justification for walking around with banners saying 'Behead the infidels' and 'Death to those who mock islam'.

There behaving like a pack of animals, which wouldnt be the first time, theres allways reports of people being trampled to death in eastern countrys on pilgramiges, what is wrong with these people


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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by:

The provocation of Danish and other European newspapers was foolish and full of hatred. There is no need for such provocation in a world that is fast becoming cosmopolitan in all its dimensions. The freedom of speech cannot be used as an excuse to hurt or insult others.


See, I really don't believe it was, and I think the freedom of speech is explicitly an "excuse" to hurt or insult others - the fact is that someone will object to almost anything a person can say, and the freedom of speech entitles people to say it anyway.

I seriously doubt the cartoon was published with the intent of causing what has happened since. More likely, like myself and almost everyone I've spoken about this to, the editor had no idea that you're "not allowed" to draw images of Mohammed. Either that, or he was overestimating the Muslim sense of humour. Either way, I really doubt his actions were full of hatred, much less the fullblown hatred which has been exhibited by many muslims in reaction to the publication of the cartoons.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:People should remember that it's only a very small per cent that are causing the problems. Most Muslims are just sitting back, maybe a little pissed, but they are not burning buildings down.

The world seems very anti-Muslim at the moment, andI think this was the last straw for some of them.

I can't think of any situation where I would get that angery about a cartoon, but then my world isn't based on lies handed down for 100s of years that I have to defend...


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:I'm going to refer back to another post of mine.

Written by: KaelGotRice

I was having a discussion late last night with some lady after a party.

She was going on about how 99% of Muslims/Islamics wish for the destruction of Israel and the "western way of life". I was seriously appalled and saddened by the amount of discrimination as she carried on.

When I told her otherwise, that of all the Islamics I've been to school with, NONE have advocated destruction of the US, she merely waved it off as a fluke, or even suggesting that my Muslim friends were "jihadists in disguise".

Let's just say American "patriotism" is extremely bugging me right now. frown



Heck, Buddhists take a lot of crap. I mean, there are buddha images on common preppy tshirts here with sexual innueddo such as "Rub my tummy for good luck" and Buddha candles for "decoration" that you burn and melt.

Buddhism has been turned from something respectful to trendy and a fashion statement.

But you don't hear of any Buddhists rioting.

Maybe it's because Buddhism is such a relaxed philosophy, with no wars fought in it's name, and there's different social-political backgrounds with it compared to Islam.

From my experiences with Muslims, I'd say the % of those who are fundamentalists are low. But then again I haven't been to like, Iran or any other strictly Muslim state. When Barbara Walters ran the religion segment here in the US, she got 2 Muslims, one who was peaceful and the other speaking about how he was going to kill all us westerners.

Course that makes it seem like 50% of Muslims are radicals, and no on paid any attention to the peaceful Muslim. Everyone was "oh no they want to kill us!"

So does anyone know any reliable facts about how radical most Muslims in the Middle East are?

I'd have to know before forming a good opinion.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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L0s3r_r@v3r
L0s3r_r@v3r

enthusiast
Location: Swansea, Ma (US)
Member Since: 17th May 2005
Total posts: 274
Posted:Written by: Sym

People should remember that it's only a very small per cent that are causing the problems. Most Muslims are just sitting back, maybe a little pissed, but they are not burning buildings down.



very true.. Most aren't extreamist .. like most christian ans catholics arent' extreamists..


You know what I'm thinking about right now? That's right, Tacos!

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:My understanding of it is that the technical problem is that Mohammed was portrayed in an image. Not that many of them are humorous, not that they might be "offensive" representations. Simply that he was drawn.

According to a journalist (sorry, don't remember who) working in the Middle East, they sell postcard-type pictures of Mohammed as little prayer cards. Double standard?

The dogma against portraying Mohammed, as someone already mentioned, stems from idolisation and not placing idols before Allah and his prophet. This goes back to the times when the Muslims were trying to convert and stamp out the pagan religions (althought I use the term "pagan" loosly as Islam has been called "pagan" throughout history by the Christians. therefore here I mean the original religions of the lands the Muslims took power of.)

Christianity (actually, Catholosism I think, to be exact, as I don't believe it appears in the Orthodox Christianities) use to have the same dogma, and may still technically have it although it is less spoken of.
Images of the Christ were forbidden to stamp out the idolisation of the tribes and people of the lands the Christians conquered.

Also, the Danish Muslims have already gotten over it. They got over it when it happened. I think one of the biggest issues here is "why now?" and as for that I think it's a case of "maintaining the rage" and keeping this perceived "holy war" on the front pages.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: Brit_Joe

They tske things far too sriously, I heard on tv someone was calling for these protesters to be arrested and charged with insiting hatred or whatever and I agree, theres really no justification for walking around with banners saying 'Behead the infidels' and 'Death to those who mock islam'.

There behaving like a pack of animals, which wouldnt be the first time, theres allways reports of people being trampled to death in eastern countrys on pilgramiges, what is wrong with these people



Careful how you generalise. We have the freedom to make fun of "Rag heads" whether we choose to do so or not (make no mistake, I do not). They have the freedom to state their fundamentalist point of view, whether they choose to do so or not. Arresting Muslims for protesting non-violently would probably be a very bad move right now. I'm not saying we should be afraid of upsetting people and allow people who preach vicious hatred to go unpunished, but that we should be very careful in arresting anyone.

I find it offensive that you accuse them of behaving like animals. Yes people get crushed on pilgrimmages. People get crushed at football matches. And can you really call them "Animal like" if you've ever been on the wrong end of a gang of chavs beating someone up? Last I heard, young muslims weren't videoing assaults on 60 year olds with their mobile phones.

Suicide bombers are at least making a political statement. They kill because they believe very strongly in something.

Chavs kill people because they're bored.

I know which is more indicative of a problem with our society. shrug


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Can we put a jihad on chavs? oh can we? can we? can we? bounce

*cough*

sorry. offtopic

wink


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Seye
Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Since: 27th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1261
Posted:Written by: Sethis

Careful how you generalise. We have the freedom to make fun of "Rag heads" whether we choose to do so or not (make no mistake, I do not). They have the freedom to state their fundamentalist point of view, whether they choose to do so or not. Arresting Muslims for protesting non-violently would probably be a very bad move right now. I'm not saying we should be afraid of upsetting people and allow people who preach vicious hatred to go unpunished, but that we should be very careful in arresting anyone.



If I went out into London tomorrow with placards saying that I want to see a repeat of the Israeli / US missile attacks on the middle east I would be locked up for 'Race Hate'. How is it OK for someone (whether muslim or not) to be waving placards saying they want to see a repeat of 9/11 or the London bombings?
Not to lock these people up is positive dicrimination because of religious tollerence.
Written by: Sethis

Last I heard, young muslims weren't videoing assaults on 60 year olds with their mobile phones.



I lived in Shelton in Stoke for 3 years while at uni. During that time lots of my friends were threatened, had knives flashed at them, were beaten up (in particular one was hospitalised with a baseball bat for looking at someone and one was violently robbed in his home!), had things thrown through their windows (because they looked out of them) and much more. This was always carried out by groups of muslim lads. They used to attack the sihks (several of whom I know very well) with knives at bhangra nights. I had racist things shouted at me while I walked past their supposed holy building like "get out of our area you white ****!".
In my view these lads were taking being a 'chav' to a new level.
Yes - I do not deny, there were exceptions.
These guys were fuelled by more than the standard British chavs total lack of respect. They did these things with racist motives. When you draw attention to this you are accused of being racist yourself.

I was extremely tollerent as a child. I was never prejudiced against anyone for any reason. My views have changed though. Religion causes segregation, poor education and hatred. This is true of all religions. (I dont think buddhism is technically a religion? It is not included in this anyway)
I'm so bored of hearing about religious tollerence. If anything its the religious people who need to be tought secular tollerence. If people want to believe nonsense they can do it behind closed doors. The rest of us should not have to alter our way of life to suit them. I'm right behind the papers and I'm gutted that some of the people involved have been sacked.


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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Well in response to the 2 seperate points:

I think that arresting anyone for saying something is risky and dangerous. Unless they are disclosing information that will cost lives or something, then people should be able to say whatever they want. It doesn't mean anyone has to listen.

Second point: I have grown up in a very very white chav dominated area (Lake District). We didn't have any, I mean *any* ethnic minorities in our school until we were in year 10. So I don't have much exposure to ethnic/racial/religious violence on a local level. However it seems that out of the various sub-cultures, there is more violence prevalent in Chavs and Afro-Carribbean groups than there are in Muslim ones. But by my own admission, I don't have that much experience of it. Just what I get from reading the news.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Seye
Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Since: 27th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1261
Posted:Written by: Sethis


I think that arresting anyone for saying something is risky and dangerous. Unless they are disclosing information that will cost lives or something, then people should be able to say whatever they want. It doesn't mean anyone has to listen.





This is not a case of saying something risky. This is marching round london demanding that the people who published a cartoon in a newspaper be beheaded. This is direct 'insightment to violence'.

Think of it this way - a French person goes out in the streets with placards calling for another round of bombs in london. They would be arrested under the new terrorism laws.

I cannot believe that it is looked at in a different light because these appauling views are put forward in the name of religion.



As an example...



1) Homosexuality is evil.

2) Homosexuality is evil because my God says so.



Both of these phrases should be regarded as the ramblings of a madman but one is given weight by tagging on religion and must apparently be respected.



Written by: Sethis


Second point: I have grown up in a very very white chav dominated area (Lake District). We didn't have any, I mean *any* ethnic minorities in our school until we were in year 10. So I don't have much exposure to ethnic/racial/religious violence on a local level. However it seems that out of the various sub-cultures, there is more violence prevalent in Chavs and Afro-Carribbean groups than there are in Muslim ones. But by my own admission, I don't have that much experience of it. Just what I get from reading the news.



My experience is quite different. I have found that segregated communities (regardless of race or religion) are the ones that cause problems. It has been my experience that religious groups (muslim, catholic, jewish, etc) purposefully seperate themselves from the rest of society and constantly remind their members that they have different values to those outside. By concentrating on these differences they breed contempt for the outside world. The Muslim community is one of the worst for this in the UK today.


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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Please note I didn't say anywhere that religious opinions should apparantly be given more "weight" than secular ones, I just said people should be free to say what they want. Religious or not, I don't support people getting arrested for stating their point of view (however crazy it might be). We should all be able to say what we want, because as soon as you arrest someone for saying one thing you don't agree with, then you open the way for arresting *anyone* who you don't agree with. I'd prefer not to start down that road.

And I have seen people (white male, 40-something years old) holding up signs that say "Thank God for AIDS". Much as I would like to take them to a sub-saharan village and show them how many millions of people AIDS is killing, I can't. Much as I would like to beat their judgemental ass into the ground, I won't.

People can talk all they want, at the end of the day we're not under any obligation to listen.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:Written by: frietom
We do know that the cartoonists wanted to actually show something and not to insult Mohammed or god himself, but it hurt some peoples feelings. How would a christian feel if a cartoonist showed Woytyla with a prostitute, or a little boy in bed?



What, like this?


Non-Https Image Link


Linky with the info about it



Written by a muslim. Why don't all the christians go rioting and burning down embassies?


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Iran has opened a contest (open internationally, of course) for those who can make cartoons about the Holocaust.

I suppose that action drives the point home to me. What they are saying is that to make this cartoon is about as offensive as poking fun at the Holocaust. And that's a statement I can respect.

I hope that Jews worldwide will rise above this by ignoring it...and those who cannot ignore it I hope will protest peacefully and show that they are better than those who demonstrated voilently.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: Rouge Dragon

Can we put a jihad on chavs? oh can we? can we? can we? bounce



ubblol someone was arguing for this to me just the other day. Good to see support for it is so broad ubblol


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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