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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this yet. For those who don't know;



For an article (note the date):

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/382
br>


Some other interesting points to add;

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/287
br>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)
br>


Feel free to discuss.

EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1139216786)


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK

Total posts: 1261
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

Iran has opened a contest (open internationally, of course) for those who can make cartoons about the Holocaust.

I suppose that action drives the point home to me. What they are saying is that to make this cartoon is about as offensive as poking fun at the Holocaust. And that's a statement I can respect.

I hope that Jews worldwide will rise above this by ignoring it...and those who cannot ignore it I hope will protest peacefully and show that they are better than those who demonstrated voilently.


The cartoons in the Danish paper were satire relating to the state of the world today.
This Iranian competition is designed to cause offence.

If you have faith in your convictions then why should you care what others think? Intelligent people do not care how their beliefs are depicted by others.


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Intelligent people recognise that public image and reputation are key factors in the success of any organization, be it a Religion or Multinational Corporation.

Therefore it is only logical that they launch a counter-propaganda campaign.

This is a BAD example of counter propaganda. I agree it is designed to cause offence, and to get attention, but I disagree that they should just sit back and do nothing while public opinion is being turned against them. EVEN IF the public opinion is being influenced by the actions of an extremist minority within their own ranks, they should try to improve their reputation. This is a bad way to go about it.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Seye


The cartoons in the Danish paper were satire relating to the state of the world today.
This Iranian competition is designed to cause offence.





Muslims do not appreciate or value satire in the way that some westerners do- most muslims, including those who did not violently protest, found the cartoons grossly offensive.

You're not part of the muslim culture, what they find offensive/inoffensive is not the same as what you find offensive/inoffensive.

As for the intent behind the Iranian competition, and indeed the many other cartoons currently being put out by some muslim groups (one for example showing Anne Franke (a jew persecuted and killed by Nazis) in bed witrh Hitler)- I'm sure that, for some, causing offense is the motive.

Others though, are simply trying to convey to those westerners who cannot comprehend why the original cartoons were so offensive, why they were.

They're trying to demonstrate 'double-standards', ultimately, they're trying to convey to non-muslims their point of view and feelings on the matter.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK

Total posts: 1261
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

Written by: Seye


The cartoons in the Danish paper were satire relating to the state of the world today.
This Iranian competition is designed to cause offence.





Muslims do not appreciate or value satire in the way that some westerners do- most muslims, including those who did not violently protest, found the cartoons grossly offensive.

You're not part of the muslim culture, what they find offensive/inoffensive is not the same as what you find offensive/inoffensive.

As for the intent behind the Iranian competition, and indeed the many other cartoons currently being put out by some muslim groups (one for example showing Anne Franke (a jew persecuted and killed by Nazis) in bed witrh Hitler)- I'm sure that, for some, causing offense is the motive.

Others though, are simply trying to convey to those westerners who cannot comprehend why the original cartoons were so offensive, why they were.

They're trying to demonstrate 'double-standards', ultimately, they're trying to convey to non-muslims their point of view and feelings on the matter.


I give up. I cannot believe that you are defending these morons.

This is a clear cut case showing exactly religion needs to be removed from an otherwise increasingly intelligent society. I'm actually pretty sure that you cannot really see any defence for these actions and are just arguing the point for the sake of creating the counter argument.

I do not take any view seriously that is based on religion.
I am sure you youself said "Not all viewpoints are equally valid."
Why should we try to see things from the point of an illogical and absurd belief system?


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:because we enjoy living in a tolerant society?

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:... and because "understanding is the key"...

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Let me make very clear that I am not-

Written by:

.....just arguing the point for the sake of creating the counter argument.




I've really got better things to do than arguing for arguments sake over such profoundly important issues like this.

Neither am I defending 'these morons'- at no point in this thread have I defended violent muslim protestors, or muslims who incite to violence.

I've posted the views of moderate muslims, many of whom can be summed up as saying-

1. the extremists protestors are, in their eyes, wrong and that they are not following the muslim way

2. the initial cartoons were neveretheless deeply offensive to many/most muslims- whether extremist or moderate

The stance I was trying to explain in my last post was that, regardless of the intent of the cartoons published by muslims, they do at least show up some of the reasons muslims are disturbed by the original cartoons-

1. the myth being perpetuated by the western media that we have total free-speech, that anything goes.

Clear examples are words/images designed to incite violence/hate or that are anti-jew. These are not considered acceptable uses of free-speech in most of the west.

2. Given the total inability of most westerners to see the muslims viewpoint on the offensive nature of the original images (as plainly evidenced by some of the responses on this very thread), then here's some offensive images you can relate to- how you're feeling now is how we're feeling when we view our prohet being portrayed in this manner

IMO, if handled wisely, this crisis could lead to a better understanding and greater integration of our two cultures, which, given the current developing world situation, could be vital.

This week I watched Jeremy Paxman host a discussion which included a several muslims including one who would be classed as 'fundamentalist'.

The fundamentalist basically ranted, talked over people and had a go at one of the muslim females present on the grounds that she wore no head covering and therefore was not a 'genuine muslim' nor fit to represent muslim views.

Programs like that, IMO, have a lot of potential for helping moderate muslims to increasingly distance themselves from the extremeists and for us in the west to start to see that there is a clear distinction.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:Just as you shouldn't make general statements about "all muslims" based on the actions of a few, you also shouldn't make statements about "religion" as if all religions were the same. A secular humanist is quite different from, say, the ancient Aztecs.

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia

Total posts: 3415
Posted:Written by: OWD
the myth being perpetuated by the western media that we have total free-speech, that anything goes.



And yet, we can bag out christianity as much as we like. Odd, huh?

Me, i'll tolerate almost anything, so long as:
a) it doesn't interrupt me too much
b)doesn't hurt me/my friends and family
c)the person i'm tolerating tolerates back.

What i'm seeing here, is a complete and utter negation any reverse tolerance. We tolerate differences in religious beliefs, but do we get tolerance of a different way of life back? Should other people be tolerant of the way of life of a country they move to, or should they get to call a jihad and blow things up whenever they feel like it?


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:So we shouldn't be tolerant, because some people aren't? confused

Written by:
And yet, we can bag out christianity as much as we like. Odd, huh?



There's some confusion there. Legally, we can pretty much "bag out" anything we like, as much as we like. That includes Christianity, Islam or yo' mamma. But that doesn't mean that it's responsible or acceptable to do so.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:Update: The paper will run holocaust cartoons.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotests/story/0,,1705299,00.html
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I'm going to be interested to see what the reaction to this is....


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia

Total posts: 3415
Posted:@simian:

If they're going to kill people when they don't like something, then bloody oath. I wouldn't say it's fair to deport the entire group of islamic peoples back to their homeland(s), but i also dont think we should have to put up with this sort of crap. RE: the christianity point, i meant that normally, there isn't much of an outcry if someone prints a picture of jesus holding a beer.



Can you imagine if Christianity rose up and bombed stuff every time someone said jesus, god, or holy in vain? Do you think that would be put up with?



Hey, let's move to indonesia, and start blowing up mosques, because they're offensive to our religion. How tolerant do you think they'd be? a public outcry, a couple of newspaper articles, or do you reckon you'd be put up against a wall and shot?



Even better, lets move anywhere in the world, and demolish buildings that we don't like the colour of.



While we're at it, lets hack people's heads off when they've got a bad haircut that we don't like.



Extreme examples, i know, but in principle, it's the same thing. People getting destructive when they don't like something.



Where's the line going to be drawn?


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:umm, how about where it's drawn already? In that if someone starts to damage something/someone then they're breaking the law.

Written by:
Can you imagine if Christianity rose up and bombed stuff every time someone said jesus, god, or holy in vain? Do you think that would be put up with?


Since when has anyone "put up" with people "bombing stuff"? What are you talking about?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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ducky2108


ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 147
Posted:Erm, there are plenty of mititant islamic groups out there, and some political parties, who support suicide bombings. That's not just putting up with it, but condoning it.

Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Yep, there's also lovely peeps like Nick Griffin of the BNP who also can't be successfully prosecuted for their political views. That's one of the cons of living in a liberal society.

But that doesn't mean we put up with bombings or racist attacks, does it?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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ducky2108


ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 147
Posted:You didn't ask "we". You asked "Anyone"

Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"

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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:Or how about cartoons that are horrifically insulting to Jews? Blaming them for the Holocaust? Or even denying that it happened.

Oh wait, we have those, in Eygptian, Iranian and Syrian News Papers.

But, and I quote, 'thats part of our culture, you Jews should lighten up'

As a general rule, we Jews laugh at the small minded-ness of people who print such things. Whoever heard of a mass riot of Jews?


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:I can of course only speak froma Jewish point of view in this case, but, yes, most of the Jews here in Manchester who seem outwardly Jewish do segragate themselves, and won't do a whole lot of mingling with goyim, but these people are Chassidic and Orthodox (big black coats, beards, very vry obvious). However, most Jews in Manchester don't look any different from any one else. No one would say I was Jewish - I wear baggies, tight t-shirts, come to most meets, but i'm quite serious about my religion. I won't light my staff on a Friday Night because we're forbidden to light fires (its 'k tho, 'cos Manc meets are on Sunday biggrin)

The point is, if you look at those who are obviously very religious, they will cloud your view. However, I've never heard of a Jewish Riot where people have been killed over cartoons.


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:We've been ignoring this for years.

Its not the 1st time Iran (or Eygpt, or Syria, or Saudia Arabia....) has published such cartoons, its a fairly common practice. Like the one with Anne Frank & Hitler in bed, with Hitler saying 'Write this in your diary love'.

Theres many, many of them. Unfortunately the Muslim world can't take responsibility for its own mistakes and faults, so instead it gets blamed on the 'Zionist Conspiracy', because, of course, we Jews run the entire world, right from Hollywood Media down to the lowliest poi meet tongue


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Of course you do! And that's why everyone else is plotting to throw off our shakles and rise against the Jewish oppressors... oh, wait... damn!!!!

*runs before the secret police can bust down his door and execute him as a subversive*

wink biggrin ubbangel


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Nephtys


Nephtys

resident fridge magnet
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

Total posts: 835
Posted:Sorry, this is going to be really long!





Firstly:

Let me state that I fully support the right to freedom of speech and any violence of incitement to violence is abhorrent to me. The banners calling for the beheading of those who insult Islam sicken me. However, I believe that a great deal of the problem and therefore the solution - lies in the West meaning, western Europe and the US, mainly.



The whole row needs to be viewed in a far broader perspective:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1703501,00.html
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A quote from the article linked to above:



"The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny."



Though in both cases - running the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed and not running the cartoons of Jesus - the newspaper is exercising its right to freedom of expression, there is a very clear double standard there. The newspaper is concerned about hurting the feelings of its Christian readers, but has no problem with offending a minority community the Danish Muslims - that is already marginalised and discriminated against.



I realise that the paper plans to run the anti-holocaust cartoons now, but only because the debate has escalated to this point. I imagine they wouldnt have dreamed of doing such a thing three years ago.



There are three different reactions with different motivations coming from Muslim communities here and within those three reactions the response ranges from mild hurt/offence/irritation to in extreme cases outright violence (which, by the way, is fantastic camera-fodder and therefore gets a disproportionate amount of attention compared to any form of peaceful protest):



1) the domestic reaction from Danish Muslims

2) the reactions from diaspora Muslim communities across Europe

3) the reactions from Muslims in their home countries across the world



In all three cases, the cartoon row has to be seen in the far, far broader historical context of east-west relations.



1) This article from last Fridays print edition of the Guardian by Madeleine Bunting explains the position of the Danish Muslims very well, I think: the article isnt publicly available so I cant just link to it Im afraid:





Written by:
Every conversation quickly comes round to the subject, and opinion has become sharply polarised. The majority of Danes can't see what the fuss is about - a "storm in a teacup", said one, while Danish Muslims are incensed by what they see as only the latest evidence of an increasingly Islamophobic country.



Such sharp divisions over Islam have become a characteristic over the last 10 years in Denmark, profoundly shaking its sense of identity as tolerant and egalitarian. What the cartoon issue has exposed to global scrutiny is the passionate and often ugly debate here about what Denmark's 170,000 Muslims have to do to integrate.



At the centre of the storm over the publication of the cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad is Ahmad Akkari. He has the role of explaining the Muslim position to an increasingly irritated Danish audience who are now seriously alarmed that this row is threatening the security of Danes in the Middle East and damaging economic interests.



"We are against censorship. We believe in free speech. Many of us fled our countries because of the lack of free speech," insists Mr Akkari, a social worker. "But what we told the editor of Jyllands-Posten (the paper which first printed the cartoons last September) is that they had picked the wrong test case for this freedom. They've picked on one of the most marginalised communities in this country, one that has many social problems and who have been struggling against Islamophobia here.'



Mr Akkari, 28, believes the cartoons were gratuitous and tasteless. He argues that it is his right to free speech to criticise the newspaper for associating all Muslims with violence by illustrating the Prophet with a bomb in his turban.



He is baffled why other European newspapers have chosen to inflame the situation by reprinting the cartoons. "From the start, we haven't asked the government to apologise. All we wanted was a clear stand from them that Muslims' freedom of belief would be safeguarded. From the newspaper, we want a clear apology."



Opinion polls indicate that 70% of Danes thought it was right to publish the cartoons, and every Dane prefaces their remarks with a fervent declaration of the importance of free speech. Many argue that if someone comes to their country, they must accept its values.



But those on the left fear the cartoons were the last straw for Muslims antagonised by an increasingly xenophobic attitude towards immigrants. They struggle to reconcile two conflicting principles - free speech and tolerance. What is now at stake is not just Denmark's reputation for tolerance and espousal of human rights but the Danes' very sense of national identity.



"I'm ashamed. As a young man, I travelled around the world and I was convinced that we had the best country and that we had found the solution to living together," says Martin Lidegaard a member of parliament for the opposition party, the Radical Liberals. "I was very proud but I'm not now."



Meanwhile, among Copenhagen Muslims there is real fury. Abubeker Idris pours out a bitter story of how he has tried to establish himself in Denmark over the last 20 years, but despite qualifications and perfect Danish, he has had more than 500 job rejections. He is now working as a taxi driver. "If there was a point to the cartoons, it might be differ ent but what purpose do they serve? I respect Danish laws and pay my taxes, why can't they respect my feelings? I'm still called a foreigner. A member of the parliament called Muslims a cancer in Denmark, kill the cancer or it will kill you, she said - and no one challenged her."



(Note from Nephtys: this is what the Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer placard was referring to. Both the parliamentarians comment and the placard are extremely nasty, but when a member of the government says something like this they represent a nation)



For Manu Saleem, a Copenhagen councillor, the cartoons have been seized upon by Muslim groups as concrete proof of the Islamophobia they experience in Denmark, he says. A Dane of Indian background and a non-Muslim, he recognises the importance of freedom of speech to Danes - "they believe it is a Danish invention" - but he also insists: "If you have free speech, you also have a responsibility towards the people you are speaking about."



His concern is how the current crisis will deepen the segregation which has developed in Denmark over the last decade as Muslims have clustered in ghettos in its major cities, particularly in Copenhagen. One third of school children in the capital are from ethnic minorities. "Research last year showed that more and more of the ethnic minorities here don't feel they are Danish and don't feel any obligation to Danish society. At the same time, 50% of 'ethnic Danes' say they don't want to have any contact with ethnic minorities."



Ethnic minorities are disproportionately likely to be unemployed or in low paid jobs, but the most worrying trend to Mr Saleem is that of those who leave school at 16 without basic reading and writing skills, 56% are from ethnic minority backgrounds. One of the most expensive education systems in the world is failing them. For a small country which prides itself on a highly educated, skilled workforce, the chances of these young people getting jobs are small.



"In 1980, there were 40,000 immigrants and by 2020 there will be 471,000 on current trends, and there is a real danger that the underclass will get much bigger," said Mr Saleem.



LOAD-DATE: February 3, 2006





2) The reactions of other Muslims across Europe is closely related: they are marginalised and discriminated against and hated by large sections of the host populations (who, on the whole, invited the immigrants in the first place when they needed the labour, and then turned against them when the recession came and the factories and mines closed).



This is not woolly tree-hugging leftiness, report after report has shown this to be the case: those of you in Britain can check out the 1997 Runnymede Trust report on Islamophobia and the Parekh report of 2000, both of which found discrimination against Muslims to be so frequent and widespread as to be everyday practice. This includes discrimination in the job market: if you are in any way of foreign descent (as practically all Muslims are), you are going to have to work ten times as hard as a native Brit to get the same position, and to get the same pay.

For other countries, check out the Council of Europes ECRI country reports:

http://www.coe.int/T/e/human_rights/ecri/4-Publications/
br>
And note that the situation of Muslims in Europe has become a whole lot worse since 9/11.



For many Muslims in Europe, these cartoons are merely another example of the widespread Islamophobia and hatred that they experience every day. Though we over here in Europe and in the US are not particularly bothered by anti-western cartoons published in the Middle East or elsewhere in the Islamic world, I imagine those cartoons are extremely worrying and threatening to Westerners living in the Middle East or other broadly Islamic countries, where they are the minority.



The reason they do not take to the street in protest is that they would probably be lynched or arrested. The fact that Muslims in Europe can safely publicly express their feelings about these cartoons is just another exponent of the right to free speech, and something that all of us living in countries where this is possible should be extremely grateful for.



Its easy not to feel threatened or insulted by ridicule directed against you if you are in a position of power.



As stated earlier, I by no means condone violence or incitement to violence, or attacks against Sikhs or whites as someone else in this thread mentioned. However, if I had grown up in a society where I was hated from the moment I was born for my heritage, skin colour or religion, and where as I became older I realised that however talented I was and however well I did in school I would still have a far harder time than other people in finding a job, and acceptance, I would certainly stick with my own community. I would feel safer and happier in schools and housing areas where most people were like me. I might not go around hurling abuse or threatening members of other communities, but I very much doubt I would be motivated to become a productive and valuable member of the broader (say, British or Dutch or Danish) society. If I had not been worn down by hate to the point where I was only interested in my own personal gain (no-one gives a damn about me, why should I care about anyone else), the only community I would be interested in contributing to would be that of those who hailed from the same country as me. I would also cling to my identity, including my religion, and maybe turn to a far more extreme version of it than my parents or grandparents ever practiced.



3) Then we come to the third reaction, that of Muslims living in broadly Muslim countries. This is actually twofold:

a) Due to geographical factors, the effects of colonisation, closed markets, and repressive governments, most people in predominantly Muslim countries are living in grinding poverty and are barely educated. In many Arab countries, people in the government are the only people gaining from oil wealth, and they are only barely clinging on to power in the face of radical Islamists, who have far more popular support because they expose the governments greed and tell the people that the oil wealth is rightfully theirs. They also offer up America and Europe as other enemies who are to blame for the peoples hardships and the stealing of the wealth that should be theirs. These are very familiar and effective tactics: Hitler used the same method to turn the Germans against the Jews: he blamed them for all the hardships Germany was facing at the time.

These Islamists are using the cartoons as further proof of the Wests hate of Muslims and are using it as a rallying point. Many of the people they have led to riot at the embassies etc. might not even have heard of Denmark before all this: their major concern is probably managing to keep their children fed and clothed most of the time. They have now been offered another scapegoat on whom to blame their poverty - and of course, the West, as a block, is also to blame for the suffering of the Palestinians.



The reasons the Middle Eastern governments are turning this into a diplomatic issue is, as stated before, that they are barely clinging to power: they have to follow the line of the Islamists or the population will turn against them and in Iran of course the Islamists are in power.



b) Secondly, most Islamic countries have a huge and legitimate historical axe to grind with the West anyway. For a large part, the west really IS to blame for the situation in which many of these countries find themselves. I would suggest that anyone interested in this read the excellent Resurrecting Empire by Rashid Khalidi, an American historian of Arab descent, which places the current war in Iraq in a historical context:



In the nineteenth and twentieth century there were strong movements for reform to constitutional democracy in many countries in the Middle East: weak parliamentary democracies were even established in a number of countries, including Iran. The reformists believed that countries such as Great Britain, France and the US would help them in their drive for democracy. In stead, these and other countries brutally colonised them. The fledgling democracies were destroyed, the land was taken away from the locals and given to colonists, education which had been increasingly widespread was cut back to avoid the creation of a group of intellectuals imbued with nationalist ideals and a sense of frustration over their inferior status (quote from Lord Cromer, the first and longest-lasting British ruler of Egypt). All colonial powers operated divide and rule policies, which are the reason for many of the problems in the region today: they elevated minorities to positions of wealth and power, playing Berbers against Arabs, Shia against Sunni, etc. In 1917, Palestine was over 90% Arab, but the British strove and finally managed to create a Jewish state there. The Jews absolutely have a right to a state of their own, as enshrined in the UN Charter as the right to self determination, but so do the Palestinians. Israel has been illegally (under international law) occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip for almost 40 years.



In most of these countries there was a fierce resistance to colonisation, of which the people there are still proud just as people in European countries are proud of their resistance against Nazi Germany.

Britain gave Iraq nominal independence, but then invaded the country again in 1941 under the pretext of needing a military base there against the Germans, and reinstalled the previous hated Hashemite government. The nationalist government that had been in power in Iraq were branded revolutionaries and slaughtered.



Even after decolonisation, Western powers continued to exert economic control over the regions natural resources, namely oil.



And remember, this is all RECENT history: colonisation didnt end until the 1960s in some Middle Eastern countries, there are plenty of people still alive today who remember their subjugation vividly, or who have heard about it in great detail from their parents. Im not saying that Iraq was better off under Saddam Hussein, but what do you think it looked like to peoples of the Middle East when American and European forces invaded Iraq, and threatened to go to Iran and Syria next?



The Danish cartoons per se would never have sparked this kind of reaction if they hadn't been published in the far, far broader context of centuries of brutal Western domination of the Islamic peoples of the Middle East, and in a globalised world, also of the Muslims now living in Europe.



Finally, beware of the use of the word 'they'. 'They' who are rioting at European embassies in Syria are not the same 'they' who made a poster for a play depicting the virgin Mary with bared breasts - I very much doubt that the person who made that poster objects to the danish cartoons at all.

Also, the 'they' who object to the cartoons because they link peaceful Islam to terrorism, are not the same 'they' who are calling for beheadings, and you can therefor not use these as examples of hypocrisy or double standards.

The same mistake is made by those who blame all Danes for a cartoon that was run in one Danish newspaper.



Oh, and this is a good article by Tariq Ramadan about the issue that was published in the Herald Tribune:

http://www.tariqramadan.com/article.php3?id_article=566&lang=en


everyone's unique except me

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow
long post, but with content...

Of course it's not "they" - "them" - "those" "same-same" muslims who riot...

But it has to be pointed out over and over again!

And as Dream has stated this in another thread already - the history of the entire region as well as the recent events within the past few years have sparked this.

Why is it so hard to say: Ooops, sorry I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with that - excuse me please... ? Not that this would make it so much better, but western public now pointing at the uprise of muslims is IMO not what helps the subject and to come back to reason...

shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:The palistinians have themselves and other muslim countries to blame for losing their land. They invaded Israel on the day of its conception. And they lost. So they lost their land. When they invaded, they ran that risk. If you do that, you then can't go crying to Mummy that you lost and you want your stuff back.

Also, Muslims in this country are NOT treated badly and they should stop saying the are. I'm sorry, but lack of education is all down to support recieved at home - they went through the same Educational System as the rest of us. There are always going to be people who leave school with low qualifications - whether Muslim, White, Brown, Sikh, Hindu or Blue Spotted with pink hair. But its down mostly to support at home - I left school with good qualifications because I worked hard and had the support at home. If you don't have that, you won't do well and you only have yourselves or your support network to blame.


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Partly I have to admit that what you say has a point, but are we not trying to find a solution in which all of us are satisfied and get happy?

At least we could give it a chance... no?

Besides it would be a very good example if the (intellectually) stronger would provide some benefit the one who comes with a weaker background... We can all win...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Gremlin LouLou

The palistinians have themselves and other muslim countries to blame for losing their land. They invaded Israel on the day of its conception. And they lost. So they lost their land. When they invaded, they ran that risk. If you do that, you then can't go crying to Mummy that you lost and you want your stuff back.


Perhaps state politics should be based on something a little less childish than this reasoning. Sadly it isn't.
Written by: Gremlin LouLou

Also, Muslims in this country are NOT treated badly and they should stop saying the are. I'm sorry, but lack of education is all down to support recieved at home - they went through the same Educational System as the rest of us. There are always going to be people who leave school with low qualifications - whether Muslim, White, Brown, Sikh, Hindu or Blue Spotted with pink hair. But its down mostly to support at home - I left school with good qualifications because I worked hard and had the support at home. If you don't have that, you won't do well and you only have yourselves or your support network to blame.


Muslim friends of mine have had bricks thrown at them and been turned down for jobs on very dubious reasons. There is definately discrimination against muslims in this country.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Nephtys



Sorry, this is going to be really long!.....





Long, but very informative- thanks for putting in the effort.

Definitly a sharp contrast to many of the other replies on this thread, several of which I've found quite astounding and which have done more to open my eyes to the anti-muslim racism that is rife in the west, than the muslim protests themselves!

Written by: Gremlin LouLou


The palistinians have themselves and other muslim countries to blame for losing their land. They invaded Israel on the day of its conception. And they lost. So they lost their land. When they invaded, they ran that risk. If you do that, you then can't go crying to Mummy that you lost and you want your stuff back.





?!?

I'm blown away! I'm not even going to bother attempting any form of reply- it would be pointless.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
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Gremlin_Lou


Gremlin_Lou

member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 131
Posted:I'm not anti Muslim by a long way, and I didnt mean the post to put that image across. I have a lot of Muslims friends (oh we have some good political discussions), but you have to see it from our point of view. After the United Nations partitioned the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, Jewish and Arab, the Arabs refused to accept it and the armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, supported by others, attacked the newly established State of Israel. It was the first in a series of open wars in the Arab-Israeli conflict. As a result, the region was divided between Israel, Egypt and Transjordan.

Most of the land Israel took in a show of 'oh look we're great' it gave back.

In the six day war, Eygpt, Syria and Jordan all invaded Israel in a collaborative effort, fully expecting to win, as they are all huge compared to Israel.

Israel captured the Gaza Strip and the Sinai from Egypt, the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria. Again, most of this it gave back ,except the parts it believed were its due to biblical times and stuff.

However, now Israel has disengaged from Gaza, and will be disenaging from most of the West Bank. But have the suicide bombings stopped? No.

Also, all the Muslim countries who 'cry' for the plight of the Palestinians, won;t let them immigrate into their countries, so they hardly help them. Israel provides food, and farming equipment and education as muchas it can, and billions of shekels in aid to the PA (now Hamas, so money will prb stop now).

Also, there will always be discrimination against people who are different. Muslim and Jewish friends of mine have had bricks thrown at them. A young lad coming backfrom Yeshiva (religious school) was attacked and slashed across the face. A man was turned down from a job where someone I know works, because he turned up in a skullcap in a town that was mostly Muslim (the job was a 'project' job, kinda a community thing.) These things shouldn't be based on race and people who do discriminate should be arrested. When I said they weren't treated badly, I meant in relation to every other minority.


'If your deeds shouldn't be known, perhaps they shouldn't be done, if your words shouldn't be shared, perhaps they shouldn't be spoken. Act with attention, for all your acts have consequences" (Rabbi Judah HaNassi)

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia

Total posts: 3415
Posted:Written by: FireTom
Besides it would be a very good example if the (intellectually) stronger would provide some benefit the one who comes with a weaker background... We can all win...



We have. Look what's happened.

RE: job discrimination, 9 times out of 10, ANY foreigner is going to have a harder time getting a job than a native, especially if it's such a sharp cultural difference as this example. I'd say that it wouldn't be too easy for a perfectly spoken, well qualified american, briton, or aussie to jet a job in a muslim country.
IMO, it's a fairly natural thing for people to want to work with people that they associate with.


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Posted:Written by: MiG
I'd say that it wouldn't be too easy for a perfectly spoken, well qualified american, briton, or aussie to jet a job in a muslim country.




Why not? Really depends on the field of knowledge. I know several people who've gone to work in muslim countries. Teaching, law enforcement and security, etc.,,

For instance...Narr's dad is involved in the helicopter/airplane industry in Oman.


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ducky2108


ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 147
Posted:Yes, but highflying jobs like that can't be used as the basis. The skills set available on the ground often means that people get poached from other countries. However, with your basic day to day jobs, like office clerks etc, then yes, the descrimination still exists. I don't know about other coutries, but I suspect the same is true there too, no matter what language they speak.

Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"

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